Baker- It is very nice software. Can you move the windows at all, or are they already set? How much prep space do you have near your range, now? I know we ask a lot of questions, but just trying to help you get the best kitchen possible.

Lisa- Nice plans! (Aside) can you take a look at Dilly's post (page 1) and see if you have any ideas? I'm the only one that's tried so far, and you're Much better at this, than I am :)

@ Lavender - The windows and doors are all original to the house (built circa 1910) and will remain in their current locations. The small tiny window seems to have been a source of light for a pantry that used to run along the left side of the kitchen. In my design, I'll end up with 48" of prep space on the sides of the range (27" and 21"). I'll also have the island to use as well. All in all, I'm trying to make the space as clean and open as possible. My main entry to the kitchen will be from the outside door (near the range, mini-fridge), so I would prefer not to have a large fridge right when I walk in. The second main entry point will be by the tall pantry on the mini-fridge/microwave wall. Placing the fridge on the wall where I have it in my picture allows it be in the least-trafficked section of the kitchen.

Regarding my seating -- I don't have a formal dining room, and I don't have a family/kids, so the kitchen serves as my primary location for gathering/eating, which is why I'm trying to fit seating in there as best I can (at least 4 spots for seating).

@ lisa - Thanks for your drawings. I can see they are quite labor-intensive. I've been using Ferguson's online design tool, especially for the 3D renderings (http://ferguson.2020.net/planner/UI/Pages/VPUI.htm). It makes designing (and re-re-re-redesigning) a breeze!

Below is my latest aerial view of the kitchen (which is the same as the 3D rendering above).

{{gwi:2109026}}

With 36" of cabinet, your island top only needs to be 39" wide, which gives an additional inch for your fridge side, which it can use. Ditch the 36" cabinet, and you actually have enough room for a single seat on the end, and two on the sides if the stools tuck under the island. I'd also like to see a water source on that island, because as it is, you're still going to mostly want to prep in that small 27" space between the sink and the range. If you had even a small prep sink, then it would be much more natural to prep beside it on the island, keeping the space by the main sink for the cleanup duties. Splitting prep and cleanup makes the kitchen be a workable multi person kitchen. Without it, you're going to feel very cramped around that sink as the range and the island is so close. The 12" island base cabinet needs to become a 15" one to house your trash, and the 24" cabinet needs to become an 21" sink base with an 18" prep sink in it. That will get your prep, your trash from prep and cleanup, and your seating functions to each have just enough space, even without optimal aisle clearances.

I'm not sure why you're not taking advantage of all of the wall space on the fridge side, but the MW should go in an upper there next to the fridge for your snack zone and then you can have cabinets pretty much all the way down that wall, narrowing to a custom depth open cabinet next to the window to make your casing clearances there.

Thanks for telling me what design software you are using. I'm going to check it out.

You asked us for feedback about your island design and lighting but because I see the island as an integral part of how your kitchen functions overall, I gave feedback about problems I see with your kitchen's function. I wasn't the only one who pointed out these concerns. However, it's your kitchen and your remodeling dollars so you can choose to ignore us.

As for your current island plan, I still don't see the purpose of the 11" overhang at both ends of the island. It's not enough of an overhang for seating at the bottom end of the island (it's inadvisable to have anyone seated at the DW/sink/range end). A 15" overhang is recommended for seating at 36" high counters. Less than this will mean that anyone seated there will sit farther away from the island (not enough room for knees), which means they will jut farther out into the 36" aisle, which will make it function as an even narrower aisle. And the extra overhang at the top end will make accessing the island cabs an unnecessary headache.

As for your lighting plan, I see a couple issues. One, the can light over the center of the hood - you'll get glare off the hood and possibly shadows. If the hood has lighting (haven't seen a hood without lighting in ages), then I'd think you'd want lighting over the small prep areas instead. Since the sink is so close to the left hand prep area, you can probably use the sink's can light and not add another can here.

I believe can lights can be positioned over the center of a counter when there are no overhead cabs and over the center of a sink. At least that's how it was done in my kitchen, designed by lighting professionals. When you have overhead cabs, as you do for lights 4 & 5, then you do want to bring the cans farther out but I don't know where the magic spot is.

Have you posted your plan over at the lighting forum? Have you taken your plan to a lighting store? In my area, Globe Lighting and Lamps Plus will help with lighting plans for free. Obviously, they are hoping that you'll buy lights from them. Lamps Plus also offers classes periodically. I took the one about can lights a few years back. Very helpful.

Remember that you will have difficulties using drawers underneath deep overhangs. The extra couple of inches in width are very meaningful to the aisles and not so much to the diners or the prep chef.

It is not possible to have two adults comfortably seated in 40 inches. Go ahead and try to seat two on the same size of a 36" table when you're out shopping - you've only got 4 more inches.

I know its hard, but try just having either the 36" cabinet on the very end of the island facing the sink OR the 12" deep and 24" wide cabinets in the same location. Use legs on the other part of the island to get 3 seating positions - and yes, the person in front of the ref will have to get up sometimes.

Personally, I'd keep the 36" unit and point it at the sink and use it for dish storage. I'd move the micro to the uppers beside the ref by customizing that upper to be deeper and have an opening that fits a trim kit.

The trash and the dw are mutually exclusive - to open one is to be unable to open the other. You R SURE you want that?

The ref doors measurements might be wrong? Right offhand - a 24-26" deep body plus 18" of doors = 42-44". There's at least an inch of required airspace back there too. You're so tight, it couldn't hurt to be sure.

Here's why we keep voicing concerns. Quoting NKBA's recommendations, courtesy of kitchens.com:

8. Traffic Clearance at Seating: In a seating area where no traffic passes behind a seated diner, allow 32 inches of clearance from the counter/table edge to any wall or other obstruction behind the seating area. If traffic passes behind the seated diner, allow at least 36 inches to edge past or at least 44 inches to walk past.

9. Seating Clearance: Kitchen seating areas should incorporate at least the following clearances: At 30-inch-high tables/counters, allow a 24-inch-wide by 18-inch-deep knee space for each seated diner. At 36-inch-high counters, allow a 24-inch-wide by 15-inch-deep knee space. At 42-inch-high counters, allow a 24-inch-wide by 12-inch-deep knee space.

11. Cleanup/Prep Sink Landing Area: Include at least a 24-inch-wide landing area to one side of the sink and at least an18-inch-wide landing area on the other side.

12. Preparation/Work Area: Include a section of continuous countertop at least 36 inches wide and 24 inches deep immediately next to a sink.

13. Cooking Surface Landing Area: Include a minimum of 12 inches of landing area on one side of a cooking surface and 15 inches on the other side. In an island or peninsula, the countertop should also extended a minimum of 9 inches behind the cooking surface.

14. Oven Landing Area: Include at least a 15-inch landing area next to or above the oven. At least a 15-inch landing area not more than 48 inches across from the oven is acceptable if the appliance does not open into a walkway.

15. Combining Landing Areas: If two landing areas are adjacent, determine a new minimum by taking the longer of the two landing area requirements and adding 12 inches

Given the above, the counter between sink and range should be at least 36" - you have 27" - and the section between range and wall should be 27" - you have 18". These two sections of counter will work harder than any other counter areas in your kitchen. If you had more counter between range and sink, the 18" between range and wall wouldn't be an issue, IMO. Compromises are made in small kitchens - they have to be made because space is at a premium - but at 212 sq ft, your kitchen isn't small.

I really hope you don't end up facing the same frustrating situation that I do in my current kitchen (remodel target date of 2012). I have a 16" counter section that serves as landing zone for fridge, oven/MW, cook top and pantry. It's the hardest working counter in my entire kitchen and it's much too small for all that it needs to serve. It's frustrating and it's also unnecessary because my kitchen has plenty of counter space, just not where I need it.

I thought of you when I saw this.

Here is a link that might be useful: Kitchen Bars that pack a punch - Apartment Therapy

No specific layout advice from me -- folks here have provided very on point comments. Things to consider:

1) Your overall layout and aisle width is so important to get a kitchen that functions well. It will be worth it to pay for the extra costs associated with venting the range elsewhere to get a better layout, especially if you're in this house a long time.
2) You may want to consider a large, single bowl sink vs. the double bowl you have in your plans.
3) I agree that shallow pantry cabinets are more useful unless you are using some type of roll-out system.

Good luck with your reno!

Just an FYI...#9 was recently updated for table-height seating to....

30" linear space per diner
19" overhang

++++

If the only dining seating in your home is in the kitchen, I would seriously reconsider making it all island seating...unless it's table-height (30" off the floor).

Over time, counter-height seating gets less attractive. It's more difficult for children and older people to get into and out of than table-height. While you may be young now, if this is your forever home, then I would not want to permanently commit to only counter seating for meals. If this will not be your forever home and you plan on selling it in the future, this is one item I caution you to be careful about. If there is no other dining seating, it will be a very big negative. Normally, I would tell you not to worry about resale if you plan to be in the home for 7 or more years, but this is something that is very permanent and that cannot be "fixed" without redoing the kitchen...not just removing the island, but also making room for a table & chairs (or banquette) somewhere in the kitchen. Of course, if you're willing to remodel the kitchen again prior to selling, then perhaps you can go ahead and eliminate all table seating.

I also think it will be difficult to fit four seats with the busy walls you have. If you could eliminate some things, you would have more options.

++++

• Does your sink have to be under a window?

Are you taking down your ceiling as part of the remodel? If so, venting from the left wall can be done by simply running it across the room to the same exterior wall the current one is on.
"...I'll end up with 48" of prep space on the sides of the range (27" and 21"). ..."

The problem is, prep space needs to be continuous space, not broken up.

I had 24" of prep space b/w my range & sink in my old kitchen...and it was definitely NOT functional. In fact, it was one of the #1 driving forces for our remodel. I was so tired of having to move things around, jockeying for work space. There was no room for more than one or two of a mixing bowl, ingredients, utensils, measuring cups/spoons, cookbook, etc. at one time. I had to constantly shift things around in my kitchen when prepping & cooking... It was so bad that I actually dreaded cooking (now, I enjoy it!) I also had a table in the kitchen that I used for overflow counterspace, but b/c it wasn't "connected" to the range and sink in any way, it didn't function well as prep space...it became a place for staging or holding things until I could make space for them. Then, when dinner time came, it had to be cleaned off so we could eat!
Because the refrigerator is so far down on the left wall, the island is barrier b/w it and the range.

If the refrigerator and range were switched, the range moved "up" on the left wall, the DW moved to the right side of the sink, and the trash pullout moved to the left side of the sink you would solve a lot...

Buehl, where did you find the updated stats? TIA!

I don't remember right now...but that one has stuck in my head! I'll have to look if I have time tonight...

Wanting things doesn't make it automatic that you can have them. You need to either eliminate the seating at the island and have seating elsewhere or eliminate most of the cabinets under the island and make it smaller in order to fit people and chairs into the kitchen.

You can't have it all.

Here's an idea.

This plan has...

• Three seats at the island with reasonable overhang (unless you're tall, then you might want another 2 or 3 inches)...especially important b/c it's your only dining seating. I might almost suggest adding another 3" to the overhang anyway (again, b/c it's your only seating), even at the expense of the aisles (reducing them from 58" to 55" and 49" to 46"). I would not reduce the aisle on the range side.

• A pantry 54"W x 15"D (+1" for doors, total approx 16" deep). Some of the advantages of this type of pantry are

1. You can use the entire space, floor-to-ceiling

2. When you open it, you can see everything, no pulling out drawer after drawer looking for something

3. Deep enough for small appliances, boxes 1-deep, and cans 2- or 3-deep, but not so deep that things get lost

Wine Bar
Plenty of workspace where it's needed most...in the Prep Zone and around the Cooking Zone (In the layouts with the range next to the door, the range and Cooking Zone are right in the path of traffic, something that should be avoided whenever possible.) Cooking involves high heat and, if gas, flame. You should strive to place the Cooking Zone in the most protected place, or as protected as possible and still give you a functional layout.
Reasonable aisle widths, especially behind the seats!
An island with plenty of work space...3.5' x 5.25' (42" x 63")

The cabinets can be as shown (or some variation) or you could put in a 24" wide cab facing the sink and a 21" one facing the range.
Utility cabinet either for broom, mop, etc., or a pantry pullout...whichever you need the most
Drawers, Drawers, and more Drawers! (I think you already know about that, based on your layouts!)

Zone Map:

I like it, buehl, but then again, it's very similar to my Plan A posted Wednesday, 9/28. Great minds....

Bakerboston, you've stated that you are unwilling to move the range because of existing venting and you don't seem willing to relocate the sink to gain space between sink and range but would you consider going with a CD fridge instead of a full depth one? That would gain you about 7", which you could use, a little for the island, a little for your aisles. Since you're adding a beverage fridge, perhaps this is an option for you. It would make a difference.

Huh! You're right! There are a few differences, like the need for the a cabinet/filler b/w the refrigerator and the right wall b/c that wall appears to be an exterior wall so the wall cannot be opened up. If it's an interior wall & the wall can be modified, then there is no need for the utility/pantry cabinet.

Also, filler is needed b/w the utility/pantry and wall so the pullout clears the door trim (again, assuming that's a door w/trim)

And the island seating as well.

Now, BostonBaker has two versions to consider!

I think Baker really wants the range, where we all want to put the fridge. If you look at the very nice computer image Baker posted, above...here's my quick 'cut and paste' of Buehl's plan to try to match Baker's vision.

The shallow cabinetry on the right hand side, really opens up the space and gives Baker seating for three, at the island. The wine bar looks great in Buehl's plan, too :) {{gwi:2109030}}From Kitchen plans

(Sorry, I switched your name...it's BakerBoston!)

+++

The problem is that it does not fix one of the other really major issues with this design - workspace and workflow. (And then there's the range in an unprotected and potentially busy aisle...depending on the where that door on the right leads & how much it's used.)

To make it functional with the range there, the sink needs to be moved to the left at least a foot, but then the sink won't be under the window...which I suspect will be an issue with her.

I think we need to clarify something here with BakerBoston...

What is more important...Function or Form?

Most of us are striving for function b/c, let's face it, it's much, much easier to make a functional kitchen look nice than to make a nice looking but dysfunctional kitchen functional...plus, prepping/cooking/baking are pretty important to most of us here. So, are we striving for something that does not matter to BakerBoston? If so, that's fine for her, but I want to be sure before we go any further.

So, BakerBoston...could you please let us know...are you a "function first" (a.k.a., "function over form") OR "form/looks first" (a.k.a., "form over function")?

I think the door goes outside. I believe Baker said it was the way they usually enter the house. Also, Baker wanted the tile backsplash on the entire window wall (see above). Is there any way to fit one more stool at the island? I believe Baker was hoping to seat four, as stated in an earlier response.

As for form vs. function, I think we all have trouble with that, sometimes. Maybe a few choices will make it easier for Baker to see the pros and cons of the different layouts :)

My plan was rough because there were a few missing details at the time I drew it, such as was that a doorway or an actual door to the right of the range (actual door so wall can't be shortened as I suggested) or how long was the fridge wall (still don't know for sure), etc. I threw Plan A out as an idea more than as a final plan, to determine if it was something the OP would consider. Bakerboston's response was, "The reason I have the range on that particular exterior wall is because there is existing venting in place. If I were to move to a different wall, I would need to exhaust through the attic/roof. I also plan on tiling the entire wall where the range will go."

I'm also curious to know which is a higher priority for you, Bakerboston: form or function? Based on your responses so far, I think it's form but I hate to make assumptions so please tell us.

baker: try the movement of sink to the left of larger window: dishwasher would be where sink is. that window might actually look better with counter only in front of it. that tiled area under small window will be a nice backdrop for a hi arc faucet-play around with faucet placement on left of sink, or behind, etc.Then the range on that wall will be more functional if that's what you wish. Is a corner sink out of the question-then you would gain that long expanse of counter in a nice central position....

My layout is somewhat similar. 9ft x 3ft 3 inch island. I wanted family style dining at the end of the island. The fridge is only 37 inches from handle to island top and 39 from front of fridge to island. When DS is eating I can still open french door to get an item or two. The most important thing to remember is being able to pull the fridge out incase repair is needed! I admit it is tight - but can be done. And I can walk between open dishwasher and island. Click on photo and you can see other angles of the island

Pretty kitchen, cjc123! It looks like your fridge is a CD fridge, not a SD. Is that correct? I can't imagine how you can slide a full depth fridge in with only 37" clearance between counter and handles, otherwise.

I'd love to see more of your kitchen but I wasn't able to see other photos when I clicked on your photo above.

Running the ducting through the top shelf of the cabinets to the exterior on the wall on the left would be an easy and fairly low cost solution allowing the fridge to move to the better position on the window wall. It's a more functional position that will enable the OP to have a more functional kitchen with most of her wish list. It's a better looking layout as well. The shallow pantries will be easier to access and be more efficient than a deep pantry would and it allows for the clearance for the seating that is needed.

Buell and Lisa have done outstanding work here to get you a great layout!

Cjc- What a pretty kitchen! How does the prep space around the range, work for you? Do you like the island, opposite the fridge? Maybe this will work well for Baker, too :)

No matter how functional and wonderful many of the plans on the forum may be (and there are some very talented people here) it's hard to know what works in the actual space. Maybe having the fridge open, as someone tries to come in the door, is more of a problem, than having the oven open...usually much less often.

While it's important to point out the functionality of a plan, it's also important to know that once we've mentioned it...it's really up to the OP to decide what will work in their space. And, Baker did originally ask about the island and lighting, only. Just my two cents...

LL, the OP asked for feedback about whether her plan had "enough room around the 4x5ft island ...(with) seating on the two sides of the island." The OP expressly stated concern about "the space between the fridge and the island, especially when the doors are open."

We provided the requested feedback, stating that either she needs to compromise her island vision or she needs to change her lay-out to achieve her goal. You suggested and I drew up one option that would allow a wider island that also serendipitously addressed another concern we had about function - inadequate space between sink and range. Based on our collective expertise and experience, we don't feel that the OP can have a functional kitchen with adequate aisles without some compromise. It might not be what the OP wanted to hear but that's what happens sometimes when someone asks for feedback.

It's difficult to provide more advice about lighting, beyond the posts a few of us (including you) have made, until a lay-out has been finalized.

Buehl and Lisa, you have done such a fabulous job with suggestions in this thread and my layout is quite similar. If either of you have the time, could you take a peek at my revised layout to see what I can/change to make it more functional? I am still struggling and i kniw the island size shape needs to be revised somehow...just not sure what configuration will work. Thanks so much, and sorry to hijack this thread, bakerboston! I will be curious to see what you decide upon as far as layout goes!

Here is a link that might be useful: My Kitchen

To answer the question which was originally asked, I'm actually more interested in form than function. I want the kitchen to look aesthetically pleasing, but am obviously concerned about having enough space to cook and entertain. To confirm, I do NOT want to put my sink in the corner, nor would I put it halfway in front of the window, as some suggested. It would look really, really odd like that. Also, I wouldn't put my fridge near my back door (on the window wall), because the first thing I see when I walk in from outside is a giant fridge. The fridge is standard depth and was purchased earlier this year. Putting the fridge on the least-trafficked wall (where I have it in my drawings and renderings) is my primary goal. Additionally, I really like the look of having a nice clean and open wall where the windows are, with a primary focus on my hood and range.

I was primarily interested in ideas for improving the space of the aisles between my fridges and the island. Seeing as I'll have at least 36"+ of space around the island, I'm very pleased. I also was hoping to get a little feedback on the lighting layout, but haven't received much about that. Thanks to the people who pointed out the wastebasket and dishwasher would collide when open at the same time -- I've corrected this in my layout by moving the wastebasket closer to the fridge. Thanks also for suggesting to reduce the size of the island -- I've now got it at roughly 45x60", allowing ample room all the way around.

In general, I guess I was hoping for a little more support of my ideas for this project, as opposed to full-scale reconfigurations being thrown my way without asking my opinion first. If someone asks you if you like their new hair color, they probably don't want you telling them they need to drop a few pounds or get a new pair of shoes :) And despite the name, I'm not a huge baker. I'm just a person looking forward to building a great-looking kitchen which also reasonably practical and efficient.

Bakerboston, while cruising through houzz.com, I spotted these two kitchens with narrow islands with seating on the long side. You could do something similar to them if you applied either buehl's Layout #1 or LL's version of it in your space.

[contemporary kitchen design[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/contemporary-kitchen-ideas-phbr1-bp~t_709~s_2103) by san francisco general contractor Camber Construction

[traditional kitchen design[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/traditional-kitchen-ideas-phbr1-bp~t_709~s_2107) by san francisco architect Jack Backus Architects

Also notice the lighting in both kitchens, particularly where the can lights are placed over the sink areas. They are placed over the middle of the counter, not at the edge as you've placed them in your plan. The 2nd kitchen places one can over the center of the hood, which I think causes a lot of glare. I'd personally avoid that set-up.

westtoeast, I did see your thread but I didn't comment because I'm not comfortable doing so based on cabinet elevations. I need to work with plans that include dimensions, which you've now provided in response to buehl's request. Last I checked, you've received some great advice.

Under cab lighting-- you have few cabs so this is kind of a moot idea-instead have 2 ceiling mounted track fixtures running along each walkway flanking your island-the small lights on the trac can be individually directed. What I see in your space is an industrial kind of look-that's why this option might work. On the other hand-the corridor from left to right across the back wall is where a lot of activity will take place-you could place a trac back there-left to rt and do some recessed cans up near frig and over by microwave. In your space-a combo of a trac or 2 and then recessed cans...the jockeying of the positions is up to you. For some reason- I don't see pendants hanging over the island as looking that great-not sure why. It's just that kind of industrial/loft-look to your space I guess.I was thinking of wall sconces perhaps-but they would not be anything more than mood lighting-not exactly sure how you'd feel about that.Others ought to chime in here.

Lisa and Lavender, working, cooking, eating and entertaining is a dream in my kitchen. I believe the link below will take you to my gallery which shows all angles of the kitchen. The fridge is counter depth. Totally worth it when space is tight. (Moved pre-remodel fridge to basement with overflow foods) One feature I love is that the bank of drawers facing the stove houses all my knives, cooking utensils pots and pans. Cookie sheets and cutting boards to the right of stove. I pull out pantry shelves and pivot back and forth from island to pantry to stove never taking more than two steps.

https://picasaweb.google.com/mrscjcl123/KitchenBeforeAndAfter?authuser=0amp;authkey=Gv1sRgCOPr4emUy6WODg&feat=directlink

@ cjc123 - How in the world are you able to cook at your range with so little counter space? Have you not reviewed the latest NKBA requirements?? (Ok, I'm being a little facetious). But seriously, I'm assuming you use the island for a lot of your prepping work as well?

@ herbflavor - Here are the pendant lights I've purchased. I particularly chose them because they are nearly transparent and don't overpower the upper space of the kitchen.

The vibe of those pendants looks a good fit for your space...you've put some thought in with your searching!!

Somehow I missed your comments yesterday. I'm on the mend from some nasty crud that knocked me for a loop for 2 weeks and apparently my brain is lagging behind.

Gorgeous pendant! Looks like it fits in with the look you're going for. As for additional lighting help, I will repeat my earlier suggestion: post in the lighting forum and ask for guidance at a local lighting shop. A few here may have lighting expertise (not me) but you'll likely find more help on this topic elsewhere.

Don't recall anyone suggesting that you place your sink halfway under the window but I could have missed that. I think I wrote that wasn't a good idea but if I did, I was just rambling, not suggesting that you do that. I advise against such a set-up because it sets a sour note for the majority of people.

One thing in cjc123's favor is that neither side of the counter around her range is doing double duty as a clean-up zone. If you can add a prep sink to your island, that would help your island work even better for prep, especially if you have more than one person working in your kitchen at a time (like when you have company).

If you're comfortable with tighter clearances, then go for it. Have you mocked it up, say with cardboard boxes and such? That would help you get a feel for what 36" aisles - or whatever you will have - with cabinets and appliances opening into them from both sides will feel like. It's not the same as walking down a hallway. A friend of mine - an avid cook - has very narrow clearances around her island (never measured but they feel tighter than 36"). When she opens the oven door, no one can pass through that section. The hot pads are in a drawer across the aisle. If she forgets to grab one before she opens the oven door, she has to shut the oven door again so that she can open the drawer to get a hot pad. Mentally prepare a meal in your kitchen to see what hitches you may encounter. Now's the time to make changes. It's cheap on paper, not so much once it's built (my friend wishes she hadn't been so greedy about counter space and had allowed more aisle space.)

Good luck with your project and sorry if my comments missed their intent. I thought one of your goals was to get a larger island in your space so I thought suggestions to achieve that would be helpful.

hmmm...I feel I have a safer working area around the stove then I did in my previous kitchen. No one is in the way or near of whomever is cooking. 16 inches each side of range and all that area behind on the island. We find when taking anything out of the oven it is so much easier to swing to the island and place on large trivits. We use to call out "hot" stay clear to cross the kitchen to the old counter. (NOT safe with little ones!) I would say we do 90% of our prep at the island. Don't forget to place outlets on both sides if you can. Great for mixers, laptops, glue guns etc! Also, on the island facing the front door are two panel doors that do not have handles, they are on push magnets, this is a 12 inch deep cabinet that houses most of my vases. Looks like panels but is great "hidden space". ps... We can pass by dishwasher and oven when they are open. I will also say I would hate having a sink in "my" island as it would take up valuable space. I can have multiple people working at the island, two/three at the sink area and one or two by stove. Good luck with your design and kitchen!

cjc123, we do almost the same thing when we take items out of our wall oven. We have a counter next to the oven but it's laminate and our island is ceramic tile so no need for trivets. When we remodel, I intend to eliminate that small section of counter - it's basically a junk collector at present - in favor of more floor to ceiling storage. The island is such a handy landing zone for oven items and after all these years, I can't see changing that habit.

I go back and forth about whether I'll add a prep sink to my island (I'll have about the same set-up as you - narrow end of island across from the cook top). Good to hear your perspective and hopefully it will help Bakerboston, too.

Regarding not wanting comments on your general layout - you need to explicitly state "no comments" if you do not want comments. If you read the Read Me thread, you'll see that we have a difficult time letting a layout go that we see has problems with function/layout...especially when it's still in the planning stage. As the thread mentions, if you only want validation of your layout or don't want comments on something, you need to state that. Since you did not, many felt obligated (me included) to point out the functional issues.

We're sorry you were offended by the comments, but everyone here has one goal in mind...to give you the best kitchen possible. None of the comments were meant to insult you nor were they malicious...as shown by the amount of time people spent on the various layouts. In fact, if you have looked at other layout threads, you will see you are not alone...and, in my case, I'm very grateful for that! My kitchen functions and looks far better & nicer than it would have if I had not had all the great input on my layout (i.e., tearing it completely apart and starting from ground zero!)

You've made your preferences known now...form first and no comments on anything except lighting and the island, so no one will probably say a word about anything else.

Good luck and keep us posted on your progress!

Bakerboston, I came in to ask you for tips about using Ferguson's software (that's next) but then noticed that you're going with a 45" x 60" island, which is only 3" narrower than the island you initially posted, the plan that you voiced concerns about having enough clearances. Have you changed the perimeter set-up at all? If not, my answer is as it was earlier: "You have good reason to be concerned about spacing. It's too tight." Your new island allows only 33-1/2" between island and fridge handles and 35" between island and bev fridge cab run, judging by your initial plan in your OP. 33-1/2" between island and fridge is not enough space to maneuver a standard depth fridge into place. How deep is the fridge box? Will you have to remove the doors every time you want to move the fridge in and out of the cabinet? That would be a PITA, IMO, and not something I'd want to attempt in case I did something that negated the warranty.

As buehl wrote, our intention is to help you, not offend you. We get *excited* about kitchens (yeah, we should get a life). You can heed our advice or not, that's your choice and it's your kitchen but please remember that you did ask for our advice. You can have a great looking kitchen *and* a well-functioning kitchen. You don't have to sacrifice one for the other and IMO, it would be a shame to do so because kitchen remodels aren't cheap or easy (oh, if only, sigh, where is that magic kitchen wand? Or maybe what we need is a Kitchen Fairy Godmother?).

Now on to my questions about Ferguson's software. Do you have any tips you can share with me? I have a mostly rectangular space except one wall has a few ins and outs in it (cabs recessed into the wall shared with the powder room), which means I can't just pick one of their standard room sizes. I tried going with one of the room shapes with an indent but I couldn't tell which wall was A, B, etc and they only offered me 4 slots for wall measurements when there are 6 walls to the space. Did you find a tutorial for this software or did you just stumble around with it? Oh, wait, I think I just discovered their 2D lay-out. Maybe it's best to start there? Any tips you can offer would be appreciated! I've been staring at my kitchen plan from a 2D view and I'd love to see it in 3D. TIA!

@ buehl - I don't think I need to explicitly state "no comments." That would be a little harsh and unwarranted. I was simply trying to redirect folks to my original questions (island space and lighting). I appreciate the time that you and others have put into my design. I wanted to save folks time in trying to put my sink in the corner or place my fridge in a location where I know it will not be going. I'm still struggling on the island sizing. Torn between on having an island that utilizes as much space as possible while still allowing traffic to pass by freely on all sides.

@ Lisa_a -- if you're on the Ferguson design link that I sent, you just need to click on one of the 3D buttons on the bottom right of your layout view and it will show you the 3D rendering.

Below is my latest design:
{{gwi:2109036}}

Thanks, bakerboston but it seems that Ferguson's software isn't flexible enough for my needs. I went to the 2D view to plug in measurements but it's limited in application. For instance, it won't allow me to make any wall less than 36" wide. And I have a wall that is 24" wide. I think I'm going to have to give up on this and purchase software. Pity, because that means a larger learning curve for me. Ah, well.

If you're still open to feedback about your plan, read on. If not, stop here. Best of luck with your remodel.

I'm trying to understand your reason for putting island seating in your clean-up/prep/cooking zone area. How do you see you and your guests using the island? Do you envision sitting around, enjoying each others' company after all the cooking is done? If not, there will be a lot of overlap going on in your kitchen with social, prep, clean-up and cooking all in one relatively small area. A 42" wide aisle is what is recommended for a one-cook kitchen but adding in seating in that same area is pushing the limits. Additionally, a 12" overhang, less than recommended, will likely cause guests to scoot farther away from the island in order to have enough leg room, causing that aisle to feel even more crowded.

The other thing that strikes me is that 60" is a lot of counter between people at each end of the island. It looks more like 2 groups of 2 than a social group of 4, IMO.

I think you'd be better off with an island that is 60" long and 40.5" wide with seating at the end and on the beverage cooler side. Unfortunately, this only allows you to have 3 seats (1 at end, 2 on long side) although, in a pinch, you could seat 4 (it will be cozy). Rounding the corner between diners may help ease crowding, provided you don't round it so much that you reduce leg room. On the plus side, seating people adjacent to each other is more conducive to conversation and visiting. Another plus, it gets people out of the hard working prep/cooking area. They can still join you in those activities but if they want to just sit and visit, they are out of the way. You'd expand your aisle between island and beverage center from 34" to 41.5", which is better for seating in that space. NKBA recommends 44" aisles for seating but we have 40" to 41" (depends on where the table gets placed after washing the floors) for our main aisle and it's fine. We don't, however, have any appliances or cabinets opening into this space. You just may have to ask people to get up for a moment when you need to grab something out of a cabinet. You'd have room for a 43.5" cabinet facing the fridge (15" seating overhang, 1.5" counter overhang + 43.5" cabinets = 60").

If you absolutely must have 4 seats ... the only solution I can see is to follow an earlier suggestion. Scoot the beverage cooler all the way to the end of that section and go with 15" deep floor to ceiling pantry storage. You could still add glass cabinet doors to this unit, showcasing pretty dishware or...

I think you can get 4 seats at a 40.5" x 60" island. It may, as I wrote above, be cozy but it seems you're okay with cozy.

{{gwi:2109037}}

As I suggested above, I rounded the corner and, following your lead, used a 21" base at the end to allow for more leg room for the seat at the corner. Paint does not allow me to rotate an item at anything less than 90 degrees but imagine that corner seat at a 45 degree angle.

This island plan does not alter your perimeter at all, although I did shift the island 2" farther from your fridge for reasons stated above. The narrow base cab can be used for trays, cookie sheets or you can opt for a pull-out to make better use of the cab storage.

Does your hood have good lighting? If not, you may want to add a can light to the right of your range and possibly add another to the left. You may be better off spacing 3 can lights evenly above the counter from wall to just short of range hood to give that area adequate task lighting.

Are you doing under-cabinet lighting? That would come in handy for both right and left perimeters, especially by the beverage center. Anyone at the counter there will create a shadow in front of them since the can is above and behind them. Personally, I'd give up on lining the cans up and place the can at the edge of the counter, as you have done over by the fridge area.

Just an FYI...there is also a Lighting Forum. I haven't looked at it recently, so I don't know how busy it is, but it would be another place to post your lighting design and/or ask questions.

Maybe bb, you should post your drawing on the lighting forum. That way people don't spend their time helping you improve your kitchen layout only to be told how rude they are.

I've suggested at least twice that bakerboston ask for lighting help in the lighting forum but never thought to include the link to it. Thanks, buehl!

I believe the "best" thing to do Bakerboston is to take two different color painters tape and measure out this island on the floor. (or somewhere in your house were you have the room). One color for base cabinets one for countertop. Then sit on both sides and see if it feels comfortable and that the space is what you invision. I did this and it helped so much! PS I have three lights for my 3x9 island and think two are perfect for the size you are working with. cjc123

Just an FYI -- My lighting layout has been posted in the LIGHTING forum since 10/3. Unfortunately, it has not received any feedback. Thanks, Kris_Ma, for your unbelievable wealth of insight.

Here's the link

Hang in there, Bakerboston. This has been an outstandingly successful forum for years, in very large part because of its graciousness and generosity. This sudden trend toward the meanness and self-importance that plagues so many others is something new. I'm not sure just what happened to cause such poor manners and sometimes outright boorishness, but it IS unusual and it WILL pass.

For anybody who could use a reminder, this very special forum belongs to all the many thousands who use it, not merely to those who choose to stay on and happily indulge their TKO by offering their best advice to others--the forum's so-generous enablers.

You could have told us that you posted in the lighting forum when you complained that you hadn't received lighting feedback about your plan. You have received some advice but you haven't acknowledged any of the tips provided, as far as I can tell.

If you had let us known that you had posted in the lighting forum, we wouldn't have persisted in suggesting you try there. I'm sorry that forum has yielded no results. I think your next best bet is to seek advice from lighting professionals at a store. The reps at my local lighting store have been incredibly helpful to me. Your contractor and electrician should also be able to provide guidance about lighting placement as well as what you'll need to do to comply with local code.

Okay, so now I'm thinking that my post could read as rude and that's unintended. The written word can be so easily misinterpreted. I try to give a poster the benefit of the doubt. I hope you do the same with me. If we all tried to do that as often as possible, conversations wouldn't spiral out of control.

BB asked for help on lighting and island placement. We suggested some other ideas (which are almost always welcome) and she explained why they wouldn't work, in her space. Period. End of story...so why the hurt feelings?

As for whether or not to go to the lighting forum, it was suggested and that should have been enough. No reason to keep repeating it or care if she had mentioned it, or not. I'm a little confused as to why all the drama, lately. This is supposed to be a helpful forum...not a 'boot camp' for newcomers, where we take turns expounding the virtues of function over form. Let's lighten up a bit, okay? :)