I am not an expert by any means, but here are some suggestions on your new plan:

1. Replace the current placement of the fridge with a 30" combo microwave/oven stack with a 15" or 18" pull out pantry next to it (the pantry would be next to the wall leading to the back hall). Then replace the range with a cooktop and extra drawers underneath.

2. In place of the pantry, put your fridge closest to the inside of the kitchen and then you should have room for a small area of counter with uppers and lowers beneath. This could be a great place for your coffee maker / toaster / breakfast items.

3. Regarding natural light I think it really depends on what direction your house faces, however, many people have kitchens in a similar location within their home as you do and it's fine. Consider under cabinet lighting. Also, I cannot tell if this is a single story home, but if it is, maybe you could add some skylights or vaulted ceiling?

If you are really concerned about light in that corner, could you flip the locations of the kitchen and dining room? Something like this (click on the image to make it bigger):

My kitchen has no windows (it's an open layout & it gets its light from the adjacent dining room and living rooms like your current set-up would), and I wish there were more light. It's not cave-like or anything, but it's not sunny and cheerful, and I have to turn on the lights in there morning and evening at times that it's not necessary to do in my mother's window-filled kitchen. I devoted a lot of my kitchen's design to making it brighter and reflective, but that only goes so far.

One thing that makes it difficult is that it's sort of odd to hang a giant mirror in the kitchen to reflect light, and that is what the space really needs. However, it is not at all odd and is in fact quite elegant to hang a giant mirror in a dining room. Also, dining rooms get the most use at big dinners, which happen at night.

The benefit also of flipping your kitchen and dining room locations is that now your kitchen is very handy to that deck for al fresco dining, and that bedroom is now sharing a wall with the dining room (a relatively quiet room) instead of the kitchen (a relatively noisy room).

In my suggestion, I put the wall ovens in the corner and the fridge closer to the sink and stove because gardenwebbers tend to prefer a tight-knit work triangle. However, if it were my kitchen, I'd swap the locations of the fridge and wall ovens. I generally pull everything I need from the fridge en masse when I start cooking and don't need to visit it again (or maybe just once), but whenever I start cooking, it seems as if the act always inspires every person in the house to come into the kitchen looking for snacks, and they end up standing in front of the fridge for ages weighing options. I'd rather they did that in a corner out of my way.

Also, you'll see your pantry is a bit smaller in my suggestion than in your original plan, but you'll have a whole other wall of under counter storage, so you'll have space for everything.

I like Spartan ideas and can move things to make that work.
Oh my gosh Jillius...that layout is really interesting to me. I am trying to think through everything you did.
1) Bringing groceries home would be not as convient.
2) Are there upper cabinets? That room will have the best view of the forest and lake.
3) We have finalized things with the engineer who did the plans and I am not sure what effect bumping out a wall now will have on things.
4) What is the purpose of bumping out the bedroom wall to be even with the other bedroom? We have been trying to stay around 2100 sq ft so bumping out walls will affect sq footage
A lot the think about..... kc

This post was edited by KayakCove on Sun, Sep 7, 14 at 19:54

I agree with Jillius' suggestion to flip your kitchen and your dining room. With food prep and cooking and casual eating/visiting, I'd think you'd spent much more time in your kitchen than dining room.

I have a small kitchen with an east-facing window over the sink and prep area. I'd die without it. My kitchen has natural light all day long. I wouldn't want to have to come into my kitchen during the day and have to turn the light on.

People love their drawers, storage doodads, beaded inset, Sub-Zeros, etc. I choose natural light over everything.

1) Bringing groceries home would be not as convient.

This is a good point. I can't say the extra 15 ft. would make a huge difference to me, but I also walk everywhere and carry my groceries several blocks home in the first place, so I have sort of an unusual perspective.

2) Are there upper cabinets? That room will have the best view of the forest and lake.

There'd be cabinets above the fridge and wall ovens for sure. The corner between the two currrent window stretches would be an obvious place too, but beyond that, it'd just be up to you to decide where you'd want windows vs. uppers. I'd pick views over uppers any day, particularly because you say there are nice views, but I know there are just as many people who are even more delighted by storage.

3) We have finalized things with the engineer who did the plans and I am not sure what effect bumping out a wall now will have on things.

Maybe bring him some brownies?

4) What is the purpose of bumping out the bedroom wall to be even with the other bedroom? We have been trying to stay around 2100 sq ft so bumping out walls will affect sq footage

You are right about bumping out the bedroom wall (and the deck boundary) -- it's not necessary. I got a little tunneled-visioned by my perspective of looking at the floor plan and having the new kitchen end end the same place on both sides, but you're totally right -- in real life, that wall that extends from the dining to kitchen would look continuous and you'd have no idea what was behind it. The bedroom wall would not do anything to define the kitchen space.

So there is no need to move that bedroom wall or consequently the deck perimeter.

However, bumping out the kitchen-née-dining-room by four feet is pretty necessary. That would add approximately 50 sq. ft. to the house. You could make up 45 sq. feet by moving the long window wall that spans the living room and master bedroom in by one foot. That window wall is approximately 32 feet wide (so you'd save 32 sq. feet there), and moving that wall in would also mean the kitchen-née-dining-room would only have to be bumped out by 3 feet instead of 4, saving 13 more sq. feet (added to 32, that's 45 sq. ft. total). So you'd only be adding 5 sq. feet to the house.

I modified my suggestion image to reflect this:

This post was edited by Jillius on Sun, Sep 7, 14 at 20:44

Jillius...I am very excited about your idea...I just can't tell you.
We are meeting the builder this week at the property. His son did the plan for us so I am anxious about running your idea by the builder. And if this change would cost more.
Jillius, I am curious what you thought about the plan I posted at the beginning of this post, just incase I am hit with a brick wall about switching kitchen locations.
Linelle made several good points about natural light.

I feel the same way that Linelle does about natural light, but as I said, my kitchen does not have windows, and it is pleasant enough. Took some doing, though, and I would add a window in a heartbeat if I could.

One of the things that we have is a peninsula separating our kitchen from our dining room, which means that I can stand in the kitchen using the peninsula counter and look directly out the dining room window. That is my favorite place to work -- even if the kitchen itself isn't light, I am looking AT light and at a pretty view, and that helps how sunny I feel while in the kitchen.

If you can't switch your dining and kitchen, and your current dining room has the best views, you might consider a peninsula between the kitchen & dining rooms or consider enlarging the walkway in front of the current pantry so you can work comfortably at that end of the island where you would be looking out the windows. Right now, you're only looking at a wall or at the living room in the major work zones of the kitchen.

We also have in our kitchen a bunch of uppers with glass doors directly opposite from the dining room window, and I put mirrors on the inside back of those upper cabinet boxes to reflect the window, like this:

That might be another thing you could consider.

Someone else (Spartan?) already mentioned skylights, and those would obviously solve most of this issue if they are possible.

I am going to noodle around with the current kitchen layout and see how I might reorient things so you would more often be facing the light/windows when you work and give you the wall ovens you want. Also to ameliorate the immediate issue I see of the fridge (and anybody studying its contents) blocking the walkway into the kitchen. If nothing else, I'd switch the location of the fridge and pantry to fix that.

If this is a one story house, put one or two skylight tube in. We did this in our kitchen remodel and absolutely love it. I think we get more natural light from the skylight tube than we get from our windows. They used to be a little tacky looking, but they make nice ones now that really blend in and also function as a switched light at night.

I like the new plan much better than the original one. As I said on your other thread, I really appreciate my mudroom area -- and it looks like your laundry room and mudroom will be nice & usable.

As for switching the kitchen and dining room... I think this is a personal preference.

Honestly I'd probably rather have the sun & views in my eating area than in my working area. So I'd probably prefer the dining room to stay on the outside. BUT I can also see why someone would choose the opposite.

Even if you keep the original kitchen & dining room placement, I think you can keep the kitchen from being too dark. It's open to the living room and dining room, both of which look like they will have a lot of natural light. And you can play with finishes and lighting too. I've been in homes with similar set ups (no windows in the working area of the kitchen, but open to eating & living areas with natural light), and they never felt dark to me.

I love Jillius's suggestion! Our kitchen/dining/living rooms form an L, with the dining in the corner, so it's similar to mine. I don't mind having the kitchen a little isolated from the living area - especially if I've left a big mess in the kitchen.

We also have Sun Tunnel skylights in the dining room (which doesn't have windows), and they are fantastic.

It's not that much farther to carry groceries. And I agree that you may use the deck for dining a lot more. Will you grill on the deck? Bringing that food in and out to the kitchen is much more convenient than going through the dining room.

When we eat dinner, we look at each other, and at our food - not out the window (even at my Mom's house, with a big window looking out into the woods). I would much prefer the windows/natural light in my work space than dining space.

A natural light-filled kitchen is a thing of beauty few get to experience. I would take that opportunity in a heartbeat.

As for carrying groceries, if you moved the kitchen, the path from the garage across the deck looks very similar in distance from going through the door to the laundry area. I carry groceries about 50 feet from a detached garage and have done so for 17 years. Even now, I would not change anything for the sake of carrying groceries. At the least, it's good exercise and if you have kids they can carry groceries too. If it's just 1 or 2 in your house, you have fewer groceries, so it all evens out. So take the light and view!

I prefer your new plan with the changes suggested by Spartan. Your sink has a great view close by right out the dining room and living room window. You'll be abler to talk with people in the dining room or living room. I much prefer my view to be where I'm dining and when guests are in the dining room. With your cathedral ceilings you will have lots of light. Do under cabinet led tape lighting. We used it to wash the backsplash and really like it. If your cabs don't go to the ceiling, put in rope lighting on timers. how about glass cabinets with lighting in a couple places. Use medium to light colored cabs.
I think you should even do a bigger island, say 42 to 48 in deep.

Okay, so I had several ideas that keep the kitchen where it is, don't require outside walls to be moved, and allow you to face the awesome views through the dining room while you are working in the kitchen. All of the ideas allow you to have your wall ovens, and almost all of them have extra-wide walkways in front of the fridge so if the doors are open and someone is standing there pondering, it is still easy to walk by them.

I especially like the idea of a long peninsula with nothing in it (no sink or anything) separating the kitchen and dining because, in addition to having a nice view working there in the kitchen, I think it'd be nice to use the peninsula as buffet from the dining room side.

All the islands can obviously can be made with overhangs if you desire seating in the kitchen.

Click on the images to make them bigger:

Karen, Linelle, Elizard, Annh:
Skylights & Solar Tubes:
I have not thought about before. We live in the Midwest where weather goes from very cold to very hot and I actually have not seen that many skylights before. I was concerned about them affecting the temperature of the house.
Lighting:
Great idea about under cabinet & above cabinet lights on timers.

Karen & Jullius:
Definitely want the largest island I can get without too many interrupted of counter space

Rmtdoug:
I am not too worried about the groceries, I had an idea on those grocery trips that include a large purchase of groceries. I thought I would buy a commercial laundry cart, like the ones you use in Laundromats, to keep in the laundry room and roll it to the garage door, load groceries, then roll it to the kitchen to unload.

Kawh707:
This is a one story with a walk out basement that will have 9 foot ceilings, two bedrooms/ recreational space/bar area, all to be finished off later.

Jullius:
Just WOW! I canâÂÂt believe you were able to make so many different layouts. I was so stuck in what the engineer gave us and did not see the potential. I am trying to sneak peeks of it while I am working and it is hard.

I am a secretary at a special needs school in a metro area and see wonderful acts of kindness every day. I now feel like the lucky one to have received your wisdom and ideas on our plans. My job is demanding and I have little time to give my plans much thought. So, this has helped me tremendously.

I like Jillius's #3. It keeps both fridge and wall ovens near landing zones. Ovens are a bit closer to the cooktop, cleanup is confined to the island. Maybe a small prep sink on the peninsula, in the corner? That separates prep and cleanup zones, and lets you look out the windows as you prep.

If you swap sink and DW, dish drawers on the peninsula would be convenient to the DW and to the dining area.

Perhaps you could put a pull-out (like a built-in cutting board) at about counter level on one or both pantries, to provide a handy place to put groceries while you put things away in the opposite pantry.

Kayak, I'm in North Dakota, and I have two Sun Tunnels in my dining room. As long as the tubes are well insulated, there is no problem with cold. We've had ours for a few years, so they survived last year's bitter cold, heavy rains, and strong winds. With your galley kitchen (especially if you put tall things on the peninsula side), I'd put in at least two.

I think a peninsula could work, but you need to allow 36 to 42 in behind chairs in your dining room and and when you have an aisle like you do ( going to the porch), you should allow 54 to 60 in behind chairs. You might have to move your peninsula down the wall a couple of feet and shorten your island also.

KC, you are very sweet. :) It was my pleasure!

One more!

I confess I really like this one. Everything is moved closer to the light and all of it faces the light. Plus having the windows turn the corner like that will be really dramatic and cool, and the diagonal window facing the kitchen really feels like it belongs to the kitchen and will frame the view nicely for someone at the sink.

I don't think you'd feel like the kitchen was dark in any part of this kitchen.

Plus things on the diagonal makes for nice flow from room to room, and I find it more interesting when not everything is square.

I ordinarily try to avoid putting the stove and sink back-to-back (it's too easy to bump each other), but this is fully five-foot walkway for easier passing, and I think the payoff with light and architectural interest makes up for it. Also, although it's not right in the kitchen, you get a humongous pantry while still having a huge island.

I'd still go with flipping the kitchen and dining if it is possible, but I do like this.