I am only posting once more to show that I didn't get banned by the moderators for having a flame-out, or just coincidentally disappear one day(as seems to happen).

The last time I was involved with a thread where someone like lynn_r_ct got self-righteous and indignant about something that was said in a post, I decided the next time it happened it would be the final push away from Gardenweb. Unfortunately, like a smoker who quits, I may have a relapse but in some ways I hope this time it's for good.

It's been fun most of the time, but it only takes a few people like this, out of many, to show me that the climate is changing, and more people are just interested in the self-validation that doing what THEY love because it's THEIR house, is always perfect. (Those posters always capitalize, so I did, too.)

Thanks, lynn_r_ct for the final shove. I'll find more time in my day now that I am not reading and posting on Gardenweb.

There are books but, honestly, any adjunct class on the history of architecture at a local college or university would be better. It's much easier to understand what's being talked about when there are slides vs old/no illustrations in a book.

Shelter magazines survive on giving do/don't tips and "here's how to understand x" stories. Or the ABCs of kitchen renovation. There is a lot of basic info out there.

The thing with kitchen design is that it's not rocket science but it is interior architecture because we expect "fitted" kitchens -- with cabinets built in.

So, from a conceptual standpoint, kitchens sit in an intersection of architecture, decoration and color theory with a technical underlayer of ergonomics (function) and the trades -- carpentry, electrical, and ventilation, fabrication, tile setting.

In general, homes in most parts of the country constructed before WWII tend (not always) to have a specific architectural style. So you get a cape, tudor, colonial etc. After WWII there were provisions made for veterans to own homes and builders began to put up houses, particularly in areas and states where there were large tracts of land available. That has continued and it's also why many homes today don't have a specific style. And then you have the regional building traditions during the 20th century -- colonial in New England, the arts & crafts bungalows in the midwest and pacific northwest, the 50s and 60s ranch, and mid-century modern homes in so Cal -- each of those can have a special design vocabulary.

So everyone starts from a different place. Taste varies wildly around here, as we know.

The two most valuable things design school taught me was to do architectural drawings and to conceptualize every project. Those two specific skills allow a designer to figure out what any room -- kitchen, bath, bedroom -- will/should look like before the project starts. It permits the project to be rendered and specified in advance via plans.

So, in theory, a kitchen reno shouldn't be an incremental process of choosing elements as the job progresses, leaving various decisions aside until the are must-dos. It should be a complete plan from the beginning.

That's the job of the pro, be it architect or designer. With a KD, usually (not always) they are specifying cabinets which drive the plan and everything else fits into that. That's accepted because cabinets are so often the most expensive component.
Some KDs can draw plans and function more broadly; some cannot (as we've seen).

A home owner can't be expected to have the same knowledge as an architect, designer or a KD. But we learn incrementally and as all of us know, once you've gone through the process of a kitchen reno, you get it. It's like a crash course. You know the drill -- sometimes, sadly, better than an architect, designer or KD and of course, sometimes not.

Advise and exchanges on a forum like this provides enough information for the owner to begin to grasp the spectrum of what it takes by getting answers to specific questions. Or by second guessing someone they have hired.

IMO, conceptualization and detailed development divides pro and not-pro approaches. For my apartment kitchen, before we removed a knob, there was a painting plan, appliance schedule, fixture schedule, counters and backsplash tile. Everything was chosen, ordered and it had all been shopped to get the best prices. Plus there was a color rendering done to scale (actual size). I knew exactly what it would look like before the job began -- and most important -- the contractor knew what it should look like down to every paint color and finish. He also had a specifications book. The rendering and the finished kitchen looked so much alike it was difficult to tell the two apart.

However, everything is a matter of option and taste. And I think it's impossible to teach taste -- what goes with what -- which is what the OP seems to be asking about. No one wants to be told that what they like is "wrong." And feelings get hurt easily so it isn't practical for someone to post a photo for critique.

The shortcut is being on a forum which is a form of crowd sourcing any topic. You'll get conventional wisdom and conventional taste. That's the cost of the DIY. Basically, anything someone wants goes.

So the corollary I've learned is that free pro "advice" is not always heard or well received. How many times can you tell someone -- in all good faith and based on your experience -- that what they want to do, or worse what they've picked, is not a good idea, or won't work, or is hideous, or the use is wrong. Jeff Lewis makes a living doing that on TV but IRL it's a zero sum game.

Meanwhile, the basic interior design textbook, for the last 30 years at least, is Sherrill Whiton and Stanley Abercrombie's "Interior Design & Decoration," Prentice Hall. It's on Amazon.

There's also "Authentic Decor, The Domestic Interior 1620-1920" by Peter Thornton.

But again, any class on architecture, art history, or interior design will begin a process of educating oneself about visuals in a different way. And the great thing is that it can be a wonderfully enjoyable lifetime pursuit which, I'm happy to say, it has been for me.

This post was edited by rococogurl on Sun, Sep 22, 13 at 10:39

Yup. On days when one feels emotional or defensive the internet isn't a good place to be in general, and a thread on mistakes should be specifically avoided.

No thread can be all things to all people, and my intention for this one was that amateurs like me could learn from pros who can both use and explain "principles of design". They exist (news to me!), even if we don't like them, choose to ignore them, or resent the fact that others have more expertise and money with which to apply them. "Math" and "Grammar" and "Speed Limits" all exist, too. D#*nit.

Oh man, I enjoy Pal's posts so much and now he's been pushed away by somebody who had no business being in this thread anyway (note "pros").

To Pal (if he reads this) and the other pro's, there are many of us non-pros that read and learn and appreciate all the time and effort you provide to people who are trying to wade their way through design.

Someday I'll get my Sarasota modern vacation home with terrazzo floors, beamed ceilings, and that coastal mcm kitchen....*sigh* a girl can dream.

Thanks for the post rococogurl, that's good advice on taking a course.

Well, I removed my 2:30 am post last night stating that I was disappointed to see Palimpsest's posts were removed. I had never read them, wanted to read them & I thought the whole purpose of the forum was to gain knowledge & advice from others. Now, I'm really disappointed. I think this forum is so lucky to have professionals that participate. We just lost one.

I'm sorry to see you go, Pal. And I have hollow core doors. You bring an honest and educated perspective to all discussions, and I think we all could use more of your advice.

I hope you understand that every forum has its own self-appointed forum police. Nobody gave them a badge. You won't even know you're breaking one of their rules till you break it, and then they'll come riding over with their siren wailing. I ran across one recently for posting an off-hand remark about the cost of red stove knobs. Got called a troll by someone new to the forum who knows nothing of my history of posting. It's discouraging, but there's no avoiding it. I don't think it's due to a changing climate either as I've been a member of a forum for many years and it always happens. But like you said, it's only a few. If you enjoy helping others, don't let them stop you.

I agree with Romy. I didn't see any of the removed posts! I don't think posts should be removed--unless they are spam, or call someone names,etc. don't know what happened, but to loose someone who freely gives such good advice is sad.

Don't leave us, Pal!

Thank you rococogurl.
I do want to hear that things I'm considering are wrong but I don't want to just take anyone's word for it - I want to know why. I realize that some excellent designers wouldn't be able to explain. I'm deeply sorry that Palimpsest may choose not to continue here. His post on another GWers backsplash thread was hugely helpful to me. Hollysprings gave a terrific lesson on contrast in May. I realize that many amateurs do not want or need this type of instruction, either because they have sufficient talent to get beautiful results without it, or because they are uninterested in beauty beyond function.
I thought a narrowly defined thread could be helpful to others like me, and that those who didn't enjoy it could ignore it.

Here is a link that might be useful: Hollysprings on contrast

I read the posts before Pal deleted them - and they included important points, without pointing a finger at anyone.

I'm sick that Palimpsest is bowing out and have benefitted from this poster's specific feedback to my specific project.

Ugh.

Will histrionics work? Come back Pal, I'm having a curtain crisis!

Well, that's just a darn shame. I, too, felt Pal's posts were helpful. If you don't want to hear that your high-end kitchen is out of sync with the rest of your house, then for goodness sakes - stay away from threads that are directed at pointing out mistakes people make. And don't ever try to sell, because you'll hear the same thing from a realtor. Sometimes we need an objective, experienced third party to show us where we've strayed, or to help keep us on the right path. I have personally learned a ton from GW contributors and avoided a number of mistakes in my kitchen reno thanks to others who will willing to share theirs. Even so, I have a couple of goofs so here goes:

1) An upper cabinet door swings into a hanging pendant over the peninsula. Yep - I feel like a real do-do for this one. (see pic)
2) The pantry doors hit the wall when opening.

Argh. Even when you think you've got everything perfect, there are little things that slip by.

Although I can't find it now, somewhere in buehl's "sticky" it warns to have a thick skin because people will post what they feel. I'm here for advice, not a mutual adoration society. Doesn't mean I have to like everyone's advice, or follow it.

Pal, WHEN you come back, feel free to use the picture of my expensive backsplash as an example of "tortured finishes" any time you'd like. No, I didn't love reading that, but you were right and I hope someone can learn from my mistake.

I'm not a pro, so just thanks to Kksmama for starting a particularly informative thread and to all the pros who contributed. I need a place where I'll find it to store Jakuvall's list. Those are not rules, as indicated, just guidelines that work more a lot often than not--but I think it'd be hard to go too wrong if one were checking against a list like that.

Pal, I read any thread I think you may be contributing to, and of course all those you start, so please just take a nice walk and have a tall drink. You know, for wide open forums that attract literally hoards of people, don't you think we actually add up to wonderfully giving and civil mobs? As mobs go? :)

Thanks mama.

I agree a designer should be able to say why -- that's the value. But most of the time no one asks.

I wish I could recall "what makes you say that?" or "can you explain the details," or "why this vs that," in response to something I posted. I honestly can't.

What does come to mind is no response -- even to a question. There also can be denial, defensiveness or at worst a snipey comment about a suggestion, or even facts. It should be possible to have a discussion and disagreement without an argument.

Sometimes I'll suggest something someone doesn't want. Like a change of faucet with a certain sink because it's clearly obvious to me that the faucet chosen isn't a good match from an application standpoint or it isn't visually great. Posters aren't shy about saying they don't want/like something, or what they must have. There is almost never a follow up question of why the suggestion is being made -- just dismissal.

Of course there are folks who appreciate expertise and Pal made a super contribution with "design around this" threads, which let everyone in on the fun. And it should be fun -- that's the only reason to hang around. Without the satisfaction of sharing knowledge it's easy to understand why Pal might need a break -- hopefully just for a while.

I should dig up my original kitchen planning threads from back in the day. I was guilty of wanting a sleek ultra modern kitchen.......in my 1990 suburban builders grade home. I recall that I was very tactfully told that I was being an idiot....haha. But after a few moments of discomfort, I listened to the advice and ended up with something much more cohesive and pleasing and yes, FITTING, to the style of the house. I was greatly appreciative of those that steered me away from a costly mistake. Some of the suggestions I got, I took, some I didn't. But how awesome is it that people who have been down the same road 1-100 times are willing to take the time to give these suggestions.

Amen. I'm not here to be told what people think I want to hear. I am well out of my expertise and trying to DYI. I highly value people who are willing to take time out of their lives to give me HONEST feedback. Even when it isn't what I want to hear. Even when there is disagreement, which is actually also helpful.

Especially because I've gone in circles and still am flailing around without a cogent vision for this darn kitchen...

Ugh. I read this thread last night and found it very enlightening, including Pal's deleted posts. I am truly disappointed that it turned ugly.

I have been lurking around this forum for quite awhile reading and learning and learning some more. I'm still in the idea gathering phase and while I haven't yet asked for specific advice I am so grateful that there are pros and others here willing to help the "design challenged" folk such as myself. Heck, I'm grateful that by reading through all these posts I have learned that I am design challenged!
So many thanks in advance... to everyone with the fresh eyes or the skills that I don't have..... taking the time to share their knowledge and experience. And to echo kellienoelle, How awesome is that?

Palimpsest... don't go. :(

Heaven knows I've gone from this initial dreamboard 2 years ago:

Hack ack *hairball*..

To this, now going to be installed soon:

And a layout that I think will be wonderful which I'd never have come up with on my own. Ever.

And this is thanks to GW, the pros and the regular folks. Watching and reading and asking and listening. People do have to move on from here understandably but to lose someone like Palimpsest is a big loss for current and future renovators.
Bummer.

This post was edited by deedles on Sun, Sep 22, 13 at 17:41

It truly amazes me what people are willing to tolerate and excuse when freebies are involved.

Double post

This post was edited by sherri58 on Sun, Sep 22, 13 at 16:51

Oh, no, did we just witness the end of an era?? Goodbye, pal. :( You've taught me so much and have been so generous with your time and experience. But I hope the draw of GW brings you back.

It truly amazes me what people are willing to tolerate and excuse when freebies are involved.

Exactly what do you mean?

Great posts, Roc.

I enjoy reading threads where I can learn, but am not as involved with GW as I used to be since those threads are getting few and far between.

Pal. Seriously? If you are so sensitive to my remarks that you are willing to retroactively remove your posts and blame it on ME (middle school), then perhaps there was nothing there of use. All I said was that ideas and "guidelines" can be offered without arrogance like Jakuvall.

I will slink away like the snake certain posters, seem to think I am so Pal, it is okay to come out from hiding. I will continue to be a lurker, there is so much to learn. I love this forum and don't want to miss a thing - the befores, the afters, and the whys.

This is one post I will not read - so you are wasting your time if you think calling me out is necessary or will accomplish anything. Just continue on with your discussion as you see fit, which was always an option for you from the beginning.

No, no, this is a big tent, room for everyone. We just all of us need to remember it's a soiree, not a rugby game.

As in, "What an interesting idea. Thank you." :)

There are a lot of gems in this thread (some of which were removed.) I hate to see that. Another example of communication gone awry in this virtual world, where it probably would not have in real life. I'm actually impressed at how rarely things get snarky here, given how diverse our tastes are.

I find it instructional to look at what works and what doesn't in designs and especially to think about the why. Although I'm probably in blissful ignorance of some of my own brilliant ideas that don't work!

Some of this reminds me of fashion (another subject I'm no expert in). While I could not personally put together an outfit mixing stripes and plaids, if I declared that a design "rule," someone else would come along, pull it off, and throw in polka dots to boot! Some would find the combo "fresh, liberating, stimulating," while others would find it "jarring, over-stimulating," and someone would surely think "clown vomit." Oh well, if all 3 could articulate the "why," it could still be an interesting and informative discussion.

I'm feeling pretty bad right now; I read the start of this thread days ago, and just checked in again. I missed the posts deleted by Palimpsest, but I've been reading here for years, and frankly I can't recall any posts by Palimpsest that were not educational or helpful. I have never seen arrogance.

In fact, Palimpsest's posts are among those I watch for the most, and I'm pretty sure I'm not alone.

I come here to learn, and to benefit from the talents shared freely here. I understand that differing opinions will be presented; that's part of the learning process, and it's why I spend time here!

Palimpsest, I hope you will eventually reconsider. I'd really miss your presence and contributions here. I need you. My house is a wreck. Please.

(Pulling myself together) back to the topic of architecture dictating style...

This topic always perks up my ears, since my current house is a frankly weird blend of mid-century/southwestern/spanish revival on a budget. A blend of some really nice expensive features, mixed in with some questionable choices that were apparently made when nobody had any money (or brain cells) left. I am sure the folks who built it in the 60's had a ball, but it's had us scratching our heads for 8 years now.

I like this thread because it does discuss the reality that acknowledging a home's style can, at times, be helpful, to the poor tortured souls living within, who are pulling their hair out trying to choose light fixtures that won't look goofy. Believe me, I've tried ignoring "who" this house is, and I lost the fistfight. So we're entering another round of sparring.

On the other hand, I think this thread has also been very accepting of the fact that, ultimately, we all find the materials and styles that we enjoy living with...the solutions that fit our families, and our budgets, and the way we live inside the walls.

Please carry on. I love these conversations, great food for thought. Sincere thanks to everyone contributing.

I would also like to hear the answer to this Q from cevamal that got lost in the shuffle:

"Could you explain this one: '-DO NOT line up uppers and lowers, it is amateurish and doesn't work."

Does this mean that you don't have a 15" door above a 15" drawer stack or what? Is there something visually wrong about that, or do you just mean don't be a slave to it?

"Also the bit about the clowns. I'm new here to GW and have no idea what these are!"

Cevamal, the way I understand that is that the "clowns" are individual items that draw a lot of attention. So an extreme kitcheny example would be a very busy stone alongside a high contrast backsplash and a crystal chandelier. Pick one. It is not meant to imply that any of the individual elements are "clownish" on their own. That's the way I think it's meant, anyway.

Sorry to hear palimsest, understand though, I left for several years.
Lining up- primarily don't be slavish is correct. Doing so ends up forcing small. Cabinet sizes and an excess of doors.
However even when it is easy to do think twice, no don't think that is what caused the problem to begin with. Someone thought up a rule, they made it up, line em up.
Look instead, and look at alternatives. Changing the siize relationship can often be more interesting, dynamic. At the same time it frees you to consider ffunction first.
Not at a computer so a verbal example- -54" run-L to R- uppers 3" message center opens to aisle, 18" wall, 27" micro, 3" filler then the fridge panel. Base- first instinct?
24" DB and a 30" DB. Turns out it looks better (in 3D and IRL) putting a 33" -3DB then an 18" -4 DB. Depending on function those can be shifted. Recently had two very similar and both clients preferred the look of the "not aligned".

Always look and challenge. Design is a process of back and forth (with a nod to rococogurls comment) of course you do have to decide and not continue to waffle. That is what the word means- to design-ate.

I'll try to get to the other lost question,scale, later.

I agree with lori_inthenw.

I understood the reference to "clown" more as in class clown, an individual who draws a lot of attention (and sometimes because they're frankly sort of interesting.) So, I took this to mean that a cobalt blue farm sink could be a clown, or a lushly colored range, or a strikingly bold mosaic behind a range...and so forth.

I don't interpret clown in a negative sense at all, in the above posts.

Ah, the example of class clown really clicked something into place for me, let's see if I got it?
A gathering of people, or elements, can be pleasing and feel right when there is a dominant focus (the leader or speaker in a group) or when there are a few somewhat equally attention getting personalities playing off of each other in a harmonious way (a panel discussion, or cocktail party) .
A fight or clash results when forceful elements/people do not fit well together - like a party when one boor makes a provocative political statement and another fights back by slamming his religion.
And perhaps a thought that Pal shared about things being "equal" rather than having a star or splurge in a kitchen is also like a party or a family portrait: everyone should be dressed to a similar level of quality and formality. Maybe some kitchens don't have a "star" (like the bride in a picture of a wedding party) and some parties don't have a guest of honor?

Here is, so far as I know, the original "clown" discussion.

Here is a link that might be useful: too many clowns

Thanks so much, chesters_house! I missed that wonderful thread entirely (gonna go back and re-read it, as it strikes a chord with a tile issue I'm considering.) Here is florantha's good quote in that thread:

"During my overlong thinking process regarding our kitchen addition, I developed a concept called "how many clowns in a room?" What I mean here is how many strong presences can an interior decor tolerate. One clown is great entertainment, too many clowns and I go sit in another room; no clowns and I'm unsatisfied."

One of the great strengths of this forum is that it is (as Rosie said) a big tent. I've learned there are many ways to end up with a well-designed kitchen...not just one way, and the incredible variety in the finished kitchen blog bears that out. I've seen kitchens here that were perfectly finished (in my opinion) by just the right final addition of a strong element. I love those rooms, they always make me smile!

I've also seen stunning kitchens that were cohesive collections of many well-considered elements that worked well together, without one element stealing the show. Flawless serenity. Ahhhhh.

It's interesting that the clown theory has become a well-accepted GW design principle, but the original poster disagreed with that advice.

One thing I've seen is some people don't think of their cabinets or flooring as a clown. They may have a heavily grained wood, which IS a pattern, or an ornate cabinet door style, or a floor tile with pattern. People post for help without showing those other elements, as if only the counter and backsplash need to coordinate. Without knowing a thing about the rest of the room, people will give advice telling them it's perfect.

Rococogurl---thank you for the books you suggested! I really enjoy design but have no artistic bent whatsoever. Just knowing the basics of scale,color etc. would help.

Lori--totally agree that the written word can be easily misconstrued. I hope Pal will come back. I think most of us enjoyed and valued his experience and take on things.

I was on GW quite a bit at the end of 2011 into 2012 when we were redoing the kitchen...then I didn't participate for quite a few months in 2012-2013 (busy getting ready for son's wedding) and came back several months ago. From my experience, I think 99.9% of us mind our manners here. I was royally reamed out a few months ago for a thread I started......I had intentionally in the Subject put a word in quotation marks which automatically changes the meaning...in this case less harsh and more colloquial than the real word....most people got it and came to my defense....but one reader became very offended and vowed not to return to GW. I apologized, even though it was clear she did not understand the gist of the thread, and it did upset me, but I was not going to let one person spoil my fun.

When people post pics and want advice/help, I don't think they normally get offended if people "slam" their ideas because from what I can see it is usually done in a very nice way. I appreciate the honesty and like the fact that so many sets of eyes are weighing in and seeing what I may not see.

I think we can all politely agree to disagree when necessary.

"One thing I've seen is some people don't think of their cabinets or flooring as a clown. They may have a heavily grained wood, which IS a pattern, or an ornate cabinet door style, or a floor tile with pattern."

I totally agree with this. My saltillo floor, with hot yellow-orange-reds, and bold mortar lines, is a clown, to me. Sometime in the 80's our cabinets were painted a saturated country blue...so, to my eyes, our kitchen is currently a clown fistfight. But with the right changes to cabinets/counters, the floor will be an asset.

Now I want to know what joanie's offending word was!

May_Flowers....it was actually in the Home Decorating forum. Someone had started a thread about design trends we love and I flipped it and started a thread about design trends we "hate." Purposely put "hate" in quotes to take it down a few notches as hate is a strong word. One person thought the whole thread was mean-spirited and I/we were making fun of people's decor choices by saying we didnt like gray walls, or faux paint, etc...that was never my intent at all...just to let people voice their dislikes of current trends we see everywhere and are maybe tired of. Everyone could site things in their own houses that others had said they "hated"---it was actually pretty funny and most of us were not at all offended if 10 people "hated" our gray walls or SS appliances or white cabinets.

I remember that thread now. Lots of undercover officers in HD! You have to be very careful and almost apologetic when you give advice.

Thanks for the clarifications! Those were both kind of my guess but I couldn't be sure.

I just checked my design and the cabinets don't line up, so "phew!" :D

At this point I have no clowns. We're looking at fairly neutral wood floors, white cabs, white appliances, and soapstone counters. I'm thinking the backsplash will be the place to bring in the clown but I can't even begin to think about it yet. I absolutely do not have an eye for this stuff, all I can think about is the fantastic storage space and wide expanses of counters!

It's unfortunate this thread has gotten so heated, it's been a wonderful source of information. I have hollow core doors. So what? It's an 80s split foyer, it's never going to be the pinnacle of class. That's part of the challenge of doing the kitchen, not "over designing" it for the house. I want a kitchen that I love and works the way I want and need it to without it looking completely out of place in both the house and the neighborhood.

If I'm doing something stupid I want you to tell me! Yes, it stung to have my design torn apart and be told I "couldn't" have the one thing I'd always dreamed of: a cooktop in the island. But instead of storming off I took a long hard look at my design, thought through the REASONS why it was a bad idea, and eventually agreed.

Now I have a design I'm even happier about and utmost confidence in it.

I'm very sorry that Pal has left. To me, Pal's posts were always interesting, thought-provoking, and educational (not that I always understood everything that he was saying, since I don't have a creative bone in my body).

A belated "thank you!" to Pal and hopefully *not* too late "thank you!" to all the Pro's and experienced folk here for their contributions to GW!

cheers

removed

This post was edited by peony4 on Tue, Sep 24, 13 at 0:18

This is really sad! Pal was great and so generous with his advice and knowledge. The comments from lynne_r_ct were frankly not helpful and did not add to this thread.

Well, Pal's not exactly dead yet, which a visitor might well assume from some of the comments. We all get tired of things. Hopefully after a short break, whatever's intriguing or irritating him at the moment will bring him back for a little light cerebral exercise with his friends here.

"Clown fistfight," Mudhouse? Can't beat that for getting the image across. It struck me as an effective way to keep visitors out of the kitchen. :)

Pal, I will always be grateful for your manifold contributions to this forum. I will always think of you warmly.

Thanks for the clarification, Jakuval. I don't like little gaps above cabinets. Never had a flat enough ceiling to pull it off nor a big enough house to spare the space.

Guess I missed the discussion and now it's a little spacey but I'm relieved the clown isn't referring to the clown puke floor y'all convinced me not to get way back when. I think I asked "Is this floor tacky?" and I was assured that yes, it was.

But once something is installed, we do try to be more diplomatic.

I am one of the design challenged persons here and have always found Pal's posts very helpful and easy to understand. In fact when this thread started, I quickly read through what was written and thought if I weren't in such a hurry I would clip Pal's entries. So today, having more time, I came back to clip them and am so very disappointed to find the entries deleted and Pal leaving GW. This is a most discouraging turn of events!!

Please all you pros on GW -- please please stay and help flounders like me out. You are much appreciated and valued. We need you.