Based on your response I just saw, do you have two sets of pots/pans, mixing bowls, etc. to accommodate your son's allergies? (We do to accommodate my Celiac Disease - I have pots/pans, knives, utensils, measuring cups/spoons, bowls, etc. for gluten-free prepping & cooking and the same for gluten (such as pasta & bread)).

I'm asking b/c if you do, you will need additional storage - so maybe that 12" pullout pantry will help by giving you more places to store things.

OK, I came up with three layouts (all similar, but with a few changes). I developed them b/f I saw your latest response, but I think they give you everything you asked for.

• Rangetop...It's included, although you might want to consider a range with a single wall oven. You could then include an alcove in the oven stack to accommodate an inexpensive counter MW. Even if you don't use one now, trust me, your children will when they hit their teens! So, plan now (so you're not stuck with one on the counter later.)

Double wall oven (microwave not required)...Both included. See "Rangetop" above. Tray storage is above (cooling racks, cookie sheets, roasting pans, etc.)
Dishwasher...I moved it to the other end of the island so it's not in the middle of the Prep and Cooking Zones. You should try to keep those two zones separated from the Cleanup Zone so people can be prepping & cooking while someone else is cleaning up (you may not have that now, but you may in the future when your children get older). It's also no fun to prep over a running DW.

Dish Storage is across the aisle in the cabinets b/w the rangetop and oven stack. Dishes will be accessible from the Breakfast Nook for table setting without getting in the way of the cooks. They're farther from the DR, but I think people will find it just as easy to walk around the island to get to the dishes as to walk through the work area, so I think you'll be OK there as well.

Yes, the DW is in front of the oven stack, but the ovens are not used as much or as long as the rangetop is used and I think you will be OK with the arrangement.
FD wide as possible refrigerator with good size freezer...I put in a 36" x 36" refrigerator and recessed it into the wall behind it a bit to reduce it's depth in the kitchen. You'll gain 2" to 3" this way. Additionally, I bumped out the counters & cabinets 3" on that wall to help reduce the refrigerator's appeared depth and "built it in" by surrounding it by finished end panels as deep as the refrigerator box and put a full-depth cabinet above.

There's a 12" wide pullout tall pantry b/w the wall and the refrigerator - this is so the refrigerator can open fully. The refrigerator doors must stick out past all surrounding items - walls, cabinets, counters, etc. - to open fully. You might be able to reduce it to a 9" pullout and then increase the 3" filler pullout to 6".

Note that by recessing the refrigerator into the...

Based on your response I just saw, do you have two sets of pots/pans, mixing bowls, etc. to accommodate your son's allergies? (We do to accommodate my Celiac Disease - I have pots/pans, knives, utensils, measuring cups/spoons, bowls, etc. for gluten-free prepping & cooking and the same for gluten (such as pasta & bread)).

I'm asking b/c if you do, you will need additional storage - so maybe that 12" pullout pantry will help by giving you more places to store things.

OK, I came up with three layouts (all similar, but with a few changes). I developed them b/f I saw your latest response, but I think they give you everything you asked for.

• Rangetop...It's included, although you might want to consider a range with a single wall oven. You could then include an alcove in the oven stack to accommodate an inexpensive counter MW. Even if you don't use one now, trust me, your children will when they hit their teens! So, plan now (so you're not stuck with one on the counter later.)

Double wall oven (microwave not required)...Both included. See "Rangetop" above. Tray storage is above (cooling racks, cookie sheets, roasting pans, etc.)
Dishwasher...I moved it to the other end of the island so it's not in the middle of the Prep and Cooking Zones. You should try to keep those two zones separated from the Cleanup Zone so people can be prepping & cooking while someone else is cleaning up (you may not have that now, but you may in the future when your children get older). It's also no fun to prep over a running DW.

Dish Storage is across the aisle in the cabinets b/w the rangetop and oven stack. Dishes will be accessible from the Breakfast Nook for table setting without getting in the way of the cooks. They're farther from the DR, but I think people will find it just as easy to walk around the island to get to the dishes as to walk through the work area, so I think you'll be OK there as well.

Yes, the DW is in front of the oven stack, but the ovens are not used as much or as long as the rangetop is used and I think you will be OK with the arrangement.
FD wide as possible refrigerator with good size freezer...I put in a 36" x 36" refrigerator and recessed it into the wall behind it a bit to reduce it's depth in the kitchen. You'll gain 2" to 3" this way. Additionally, I bumped out the counters & cabinets 3" on that wall to help reduce the refrigerator's appeared depth and "built it in" by surrounding it by finished end panels as deep as the refrigerator box and put a full-depth cabinet above.

There's a 12" wide pullout tall pantry b/w the wall and the refrigerator - this is so the refrigerator can open fully. The refrigerator doors must stick out past all surrounding items - walls, cabinets, counters, etc. - to open fully. You might be able to reduce it to a 9" pullout and then increase the 3" filler pullout to 6".

Note that by recessing the refrigerator into the...

Based on your response I just saw, do you have two sets of pots/pans, mixing bowls, etc. to accommodate your son's allergies? (We do to accommodate my Celiac Disease - I have pots/pans, knives, utensils, measuring cups/spoons, bowls, etc. for gluten-free prepping & cooking and the same for gluten (such as pasta & bread)).

I'm asking b/c if you do, you will need additional storage - so maybe that 12" pullout pantry will help by giving you more places to store things.

OK, I came up with three layouts (all similar, but with a few changes). I developed them b/f I saw your latest response, but I think they give you everything you asked for.

• Rangetop...It's included, although you might want to consider a range with a single wall oven. You could then include an alcove in the oven stack to accommodate an inexpensive counter MW. Even if you don't use one now, trust me, your children will when they hit their teens! So, plan now (so you're not stuck with one on the counter later.)

Double wall oven (microwave not required)...Both included. See "Rangetop" above. Tray storage is above (cooling racks, cookie sheets, roasting pans, etc.)
Dishwasher...I moved it to the other end of the island so it's not in the middle of the Prep and Cooking Zones. You should try to keep those two zones separated from the Cleanup Zone so people can be prepping & cooking while someone else is cleaning up (you may not have that now, but you may in the future when your children get older). It's also no fun to prep over a running DW.

Dish Storage is across the aisle in the cabinets b/w the rangetop and oven stack. Dishes will be accessible from the Breakfast Nook for table setting without getting in the way of the cooks. They're farther from the DR, but I think people will find it just as easy to walk around the island to get to the dishes as to walk through the work area, so I think you'll be OK there as well.

Yes, the DW is in front of the oven stack, but the ovens are not used as much or as long as the rangetop is used and I think you will be OK with the arrangement.
FD wide as possible refrigerator with good size freezer...I put in a 36" x 36" refrigerator and recessed it into the wall behind it a bit to reduce it's depth in the kitchen. You'll gain 2" to 3" this way. Additionally, I bumped out the counters & cabinets 3" on that wall to help reduce the refrigerator's appeared depth and "built it in" by surrounding it by finished end panels as deep as the refrigerator box and put a full-depth cabinet above.

There's a 12" wide pullout tall pantry b/w the wall and the refrigerator - this is so the refrigerator can open fully. The refrigerator doors must stick out past all surrounding items - walls, cabinets, counters, etc. - to open fully. You might be able to reduce it to a 9" pullout and then increase the 3" filler pullout to 6".

Note that by recessing the refrigerator into the...

Based on your response I just saw, do you have two sets of pots/pans, mixing bowls, etc. to accommodate your son's allergies? (We do to accommodate my Celiac Disease - I have pots/pans, knives, utensils, measuring cups/spoons, bowls, etc. for gluten-free prepping & cooking and the same for gluten (such as pasta & bread)).

I'm asking b/c if you do, you will need additional storage - so maybe that 12" pullout pantry will help by giving you more places to store things.

OK, I came up with three layouts (all similar, but with a few changes). I developed them b/f I saw your latest response, but I think they give you everything you asked for.

• Rangetop...It's included, although you might want to consider a range with a single wall oven. You could then include an alcove in the oven stack to accommodate an inexpensive counter MW. Even if you don't use one now, trust me, your children will when they hit their teens! So, plan now (so you're not stuck with one on the counter later.)

Double wall oven (microwave not required)...Both included. See "Rangetop" above. Tray storage is above (cooling racks, cookie sheets, roasting pans, etc.)
Dishwasher...I moved it to the other end of the island so it's not in the middle of the Prep and Cooking Zones. You should try to keep those two zones separated from the Cleanup Zone so people can be prepping & cooking while someone else is cleaning up (you may not have that now, but you may in the future when your children get older). It's also no fun to prep over a running DW.

Dish Storage is across the aisle in the cabinets b/w the rangetop and oven stack. Dishes will be accessible from the Breakfast Nook for table setting without getting in the way of the cooks. They're farther from the DR, but I think people will find it just as easy to walk around the island to get to the dishes as to walk through the work area, so I think you'll be OK there as well.

Yes, the DW is in front of the oven stack, but the ovens are not used as much or as long as the rangetop is used and I think you will be OK with the arrangement.
FD wide as possible refrigerator with good size freezer...I put in a 36" x 36" refrigerator and recessed it into the wall behind it a bit to reduce it's depth in the kitchen. You'll gain 2" to 3" this way. Additionally, I bumped out the counters & cabinets 3" on that wall to help reduce the refrigerator's appeared depth and "built it in" by surrounding it by finished end panels as deep as the refrigerator box and put a full-depth cabinet above.

There's a 12" wide pullout tall pantry b/w the wall and the refrigerator - this is so the refrigerator can open fully. The refrigerator doors must stick out past all surrounding items - walls, cabinets, counters, etc. - to open fully. You might be able to reduce it to a 9" pullout and then increase the 3" filler pullout to 6".

Note that by recessing the refrigerator into the...

How do you plan to use the dark hole next to the refrigerator? You won't be able to reach back there very easily, and forget trying to into the upper cabinet. Do you show two refrigerators? Where is your non-perishable food storage?

I agree about that corner - it's horrible. are the wall ovens to the right of the cooktop?

You don't want the DW across from the cooktop - you'll back into it when you're cooking.

Not just food storage - where will you keep plates, dishes, small appliances, baking dishes? Those huge appliances really cut into your limited storage space. Will you have a MW? Where?

How many people live in your house? How many cooks? Do you entertain a lot? You have 3 seating areas in close proximity (assuming there's a table in the breakfast area), and a row of island seating isn't very inviting for more than two people.

I recommend you check the Layout Help topic in the Kitchen Forum's FAQs (linked below). We need to know more than just the appliances you want (do you really need what you say are "must haves" - or are they really "wants"?)

Are there any windows along the top wall (I don't see any, but I thought I'd ask since sometimes people forget to put them in their layouts.)

Do you really need 3 types of seating so close together? (Island + Breakfast Nook + Dining Room)

Do you have a pantry somewhere else?

Ditto the "black hole" and DW placement comments.

You can have plenty of drawers with a range instead of rangetop - which I would recommend given your small kitchen space.

"... how to best use our space..."

That will depend on how you use your kitchen, what your family composition is (now and in the future), what other storage options are available, the available kitchen space and configuration, etc. Please read the Layout Help FAQ.

Here is a link that might be useful: FAQ: How do I ask for Layout Help and what information should I include?

Sorry, older version. The new layout has it so fridge is not 60 wide. Looking at 36. The original plan was for side by side separate fridge and freezer.

Buehl, My improved request for help.....

We are a family of 4. We have two sons (7, 4) and the younger as a lot of food allergies - as a result I do a lot of cooking and baking. We also try to freeze in case I can't be home to cook for our youngest.

My husband and the boys occasionally assist with clean up.

We do a fair bit of hosting as it's the only way to be sure our youngest is safe from cross contamination. I have a large family who live out of the country - when they visit it's for months.

We also host the kids friends - so multiple eating locations are used.

I enjoy being the family cook and being in the kitchen - I'm looking for a place that's functional and as we'll laid out as possible. Every inch matters!

Would like to ensure we maximize storage and counter space. 2 of the builtin cupboards in family room will be used as pantry.

What I'd like for appliances:
36" gas rangetop
Double wall oven (microwave not required)
Dishwasher
FD wide as possible refrigerator with good size freezer
Excellent hood fan

Look forward to feedback!

Buehl, if the susan hinges on the right, why do you need the filler on the fridge side? I would think the 3" would be better used in the pantry.

Will look over tonight, once boys are in bed - but THANK YOU. It's great to get an outside perspective (other than us and contractor).

To add, we have one drawer for stuff that isn't allergy free (if we decide to eat takeout when kids are not with us). We keep everything as contamination free as possible and I cook only what our youngest can have.

Also - we've decided to have the island all at one height and use stools/chairs with lifts.

Great idea not to have dishwasher open up to range! Yikes!

My DH wants to know if it makes sense to put wall ovens next to fridge.... I don't think so, but I promised I would ask.

Makes sense, in what sense? If you're worried about the heat, don't. Appliances are very well insulated nowadays. That said, they're not next to each other in any of buehl's layouts.

Sjhockeyfan, I meant more in terms of layout and the counter space next to where the refrigerator is located. Trying not to create dead space.

Buehl, I'm going to see about have a cupboard for the future (when boys might want a microwave). What is Tracy storage? Not sure I know all the kitchen jargon!

Just spoke to DH, he wants to know if there are any changes advised to the layout - moving appliances. Thoughts?

That is a narrow space to come through the dining room door and swivel hips around the island to get to the breakfast table or family room, and with the stools there even more so. Since you have a breakfast table right there, maybe storage on that side of the island is more important than stools. Lunchboxes, serving dishes for entertaining, placemats and napkins, breakfast cereal. If you must have stools, just have one or two at the family room end for "perches". Layout 2 allows for that the best, although without stools you could have the silverware drawer right next to the dishwasher.

Here is a suggestion:

1) You'd have to knock down the wall between kitchen and dining and reverse the swing of the door in the wall of windows. I hope that's okay.

I'm picturing having the dining room and kitchen separated by a wide doorway or an arch or similar instead of that wall, like this:

2) The third floor plan is the same as the first plus a prep sink. You didn't ask for one, and it'd cost you both a seat at the island and some counter space, both of which you asked for specifically, so I am not envisioning your preferring that. However, there is a natural place for a prep sink if you want one.

3) I have turned the former breakfast area into a pantry. That area wasn't large enough to have a decent-size table without intruding so far into the great room that a symmetrical furniture layout around the fireplace wasn't possible. The new pantry fits naturally into the nook created by the bathroom, and the right wall of the pantry defines a seating area centered on the fireplace. The new pantry is also enormous -- you wanted storage, and you wanted as much refrigeration/freezing space as possible, so here you go. Like this:

I'm envisioning 12-15" deep shelves everywhere but on the wall with the freezer, which I'm picturing as having 12-15" deep shelves above the waist, a counter-depth shelf at the waist (a drop spot for stuff you're pulling out of the freezer), and some combination of drawers/shelves/bins under that to the floor.

4) I flipped the kitchen layout you proposed, so it's more or less a mirror image of itself. This gives you:

a) A natural straight-shot walk into the new pantry from the kitchen (rather than having to walk around the island).

b) A view. Now one leg of the L-shaped counter is facing the windows (and the great room) instead of looking at a wall. I put the sink on that leg because people like and somewhat expect a window above the kitchen sink. It's nice to look out at something while doing dishes.

c) An easy time accessing all the storage space in the corner of the L-shaped counter. Much easier to make full use of the space in the corner when you have access to it from two sides, and in this case, because I put a table on the other side of the peninsula, there is space in front of the corner for drawers to extend into. So you can comprise that corner entirely of drawers of you want to, like this:

5) The new peninsula also helps to define the great room boundaries and the new breakfast table area. People seated in this area will now be right next to all the windows and be able to see the fireplace. Also, while you don't lose any seating, you get a bit more separation of the table...

Sorry - typo! That should have been "Tray" storage! Something like this (this is my tray storage above my wall ovens).

Regarding a sink, especially a cleanup sink, on a narrow peninsula...anything less than a 36" deep or so peninsula is too narrow for a sink. On a peninsula, there is no wall behind the sink to keep things from falling off the back nor is there a wall to catch/stop splashes and water messes - all that water will end up on the floor behind the peninsula (on the FR side). Without a wall, you need depth - at least 12" (preferably more).

"...That is a narrow space to come through the dining room door and swivel hips around the island to get to the breakfast table or family room, ..."

If it's the placement of the door (good point), the doorway could be moved down, but then there wouldn't be room for a pocket door. Is a door even necessary? It's not like the kitchen "mess" will be visible from the DR. And yes, the 49" wide (revised) aisle is a "pinch point", but it's not a long one and it's not too bad. I think it would be fine, but YMMV.

Under counter ovens...in all honesty, I cannot recommend them. Wall ovens mounted under the counter are quite a bit closer to the floor (i.e., quite a bit lower) than an oven in a range. Unless your entire family is short, I think you will find those low ovens an annoyance and grow to dislike them over time. We considered one briefly - until our KD showed us one in one of their displays and we saw how low they were - the oven handle just barely cleared the floor! After seeing that, we immediately nixed the idea! If you are interested in them, then please find one installed that way and check it out before committing to it. Personally, I would not want to bend any farther down than a range's oven. (Think about it, a range usually has a drawer under the oven...in an under the counter installation of a wall oven, there's no room for that drawer - the oven has to use that space.) One more thing, if this is your "forever home" and you plan to age-in-place, I would not consider it - unless you plan to redo the kitchen again b/f you retire.

You actually have quite a bit of counterspace - at least 4' on each side of the range and 60" of workspace (or 45" in Layout #2) in the island.

There was some question about fitting a Breakfast Nook with seating...here's what it might look like. If you put in a banquette, it will be just barely doable. The aisle b/w the table and the island, is 60" - it should be enough b/w the two even if someone is seated in both places. I also moved the DR doorway down - that was a good point about zig-zagging.

Note: I revised the overall Kitchen/Breakfast Nook depth - I was off by about 2". This makes the aisle b/w the island and PR wall...

I have to make two particular comments based on living with these things in my previous and current homes:

1) 30" is plenty for a sink on a peninsula. We had ours that way for 8 years, and loved the configuration. We never felt the need for more depth.

2) We have long had (by choice) under-counter ovens. We previously had wall ovens and I hated the bulk of that cabinet. Wall ovens are great ergonomically, but we have no hatred toward the undercabinet oven. I don't fuss over things in the oven, so I'm not bending down that often (put it in, take it out). That said, you seem to have plenty of room for wall ovens, so if you don't mind the look, then sure, go for wall ovens.

Yeah, I'm an avid baker, and I've used under counter double ovens for years. Never bothered me. All the functionality of two ovens without the bulk of another giant wall cabinet and no loss of counter space. Seems like a win-win to me.

My 70-year-old mother has also used under counter double ovens for almost 20 years without any issue, and hers are lower than usual. Granted, she's pretty fit for a 70-year-old. But still, she's 70. Oh! And she is six feet tall. I'm 5'9", so while not tall, I'm definitely not short either.

Based on sjhockeyfan's feedback, I deepened the peninsula to 30":

I don't have a sink in a peninsula, but I do have a counter that is 30" deep, and it seems SO luxurious and expansive. (Seriously, after it was installed, I hugged it. It's amazing.) So what sjhockeyfan is saying makes sense to me.

This post was edited by Jillius on Tue, Sep 30, 14 at 20:11

I really like Jillius' plan :)

Great layout and huge pantry! Hope the dining room wall can be taken down to make this work...or at least that little corner wall across from the stairs. Even if the main wall had to stay, I think it would still work with the island, even if it had to be just a little smaller.

Buehl- Love the banquette! Great plan, working within the current constraints. I'm just not fond of the clean up sink on the island...but many people do like it.

Ovens - under the counter will work if you have no choice (I've even suggested them in extreme cases) but if you don't need to, why do it? The OP has plenty of counterspace that can be in all the right places, so an under counter oven is not necessary. Also keep in mind that you can get used to anything - and once used to it, most people say "it's fine". Again, why make do with something that's not as functional if you don't need to?

Lavender_Lass - I also don't normally like cleanup sinks in the island, but I seem to recall the original post (b/f the edit on Sunday) said the sink in the island was desired. Maybe I'm thinking of another thread....but I'm not sure. With that in mind (right or wrong), that's what I gave ilovepie - the kitchen was still very functional with it, and there was plenty of room on the island, so why not? Regardless, if it was there, it has since been edited out.

The Family Room - sorry, but I would not want to steal half the room for a table and chairs if I had a separate DR and room for a table elsewhere. To me, FR space is precious (especially with children!) However, perhaps it's not important to ilovepie's family or maybe they have another FR somewhere else.

The advantage of the peninsula is that it does close off the kitchen from the now Breakfast Nook and segregates the Kitchen area pretty well.

I recommend a prep sink in the island if you go with the peninsula layout. The current peninsula layout makes the island less desirable for prepping b/c of the lack of water. The refrigerator is pretty far away from the peninsula sink, so the island would be a better place for prepping - take veggies/fruit out and place it on the island and prep. Without the sink, you will be taking the food out, putting it either on the island or counter to the right and then picking it up again and moving it to the peninsula. Workflow in a kitchen is generally: Refrigerator --> Sink --> Range/Rangetop --> Table (or Cleanup Sink)

The most functional layouts follow the workflow.

I still recommend a deeper peninsula counter - water often splashes more than 6" when cleaning up - but it's up to ilovepie & her family. OR, maybe you could consider a 42" high knee wall on the back of the peninsula - reduce the counter to the normal 25.5" and put up a knee wall (probably 4" or so thick) . The wall should corral most of the water and also help prevent items from falling off the back of the peninsula when putting/moving around dirty dishes on the counter or while prepping there.

The freezer in the pantry will need to have a 12" cab b/w it and the wall. If the freezer (or a refrigerator) is in the pantry, then be sure you have very good ventilation since both refrigerators and freezers put out quite a bit of heat -- and heat and food storage do not go well together.

Assuming the top wall is an exterior...

LOL! Those must be all the NEAT people, who don't have dishes stacked all over, around and in their sink :)

I need a scullery! That would be my best bet for kitchen mess...with the second choice being so many windows/such a wonderful view that people don't pay much attention to the dishes.

Banquettes are always so cozy and provide a great excuse for fabrics and colors in the kitchen. Any chance there could be windows on each side of the range? It would balance the natural light from the family room... {{!gwi}}From Kitchen tables and vintage kitchens

ok, finally got internet access back up - a lot to respond to...

Yes, i agree that 3 feet isnt the widest passage way. what can we do and still have the pocket door? (pocket door required as one of our sons is a very light sleeper and we need something to block kitchen noise. ) Is there a different type of door that would be less intrusive into our space?

I agree a full depth refrigerator is the best choice - will keep that as we go forward.

A pantry is a lovely idea - but we really do need all that eating space. When we have family come stay it is for extended periods - need as much dining and family room space as possible.

Like the over refrigerator tray storage. We were thinking of having bump outs on either side of rangetop that would pull out for trays - if we do over the refrigerator what could we use the other pullouts for storing? (not spices - want them at eye height)

Under the counter oven - neat idea - but totally ignores why I want wall oven - not a fan of bending down to get hot bubbly pans from the oven. Presently, use our single oven numerous times a day...believe me when I say I know I will be happier with them higher.

I like the banquettes idea! More storage definitely and a place to add colour/color.

Appreciate the ongoing discussion!

"...i agree that 3 feet isnt the widest passage way. what can we do and still have the pocket door?..."

Put in a regular door that's 36" wide (swing into DR against that wall) and keep the door open most of the time.

Or, get doors that swing both ways, have a 48" opening, and put in two 24" wide doors - when open, one can be opened into the DR against the wall and the other open into the kitchen against the PR wall.

Just an idea.

The other thing, which is outside Kitchen design, is to help your son no longer be a light sleeper - or add an air cleaner in his room to drown out outside noises (it acts like a "white noise" machine but is actually functional!)

Ok, DH and I have thought about it and we like layout 4. It remains a question how to incorporate the door in the passage. ( we have one son who sleeps well, the other not consistently. We've been to many a professional and take part in research projects... Let's just say that for now the door is a must.)

DH does not like the look or flow with a peninsula and doesn't think a second sink is warranted in such a small kitchen.

So, back to the doorway... How do we make it work?

buehl, must ask, would it be crazy if we went back to the fill refrigerator and full freezer as in our original layout? is there a way to combine it with layout #4 so that me maximize storage and drawers are king?

posting #4 by buehl so you don't need to scroll up!

And wanted to add that the built ins to the right of the ovens can include storage for kitchen use (will be a built in desk and storage - whats behind cabinets/drawers will be hidden so won't clash with family room space)

{{!gwi}}

This post was edited by ilovepie on Thu, Jan 1, 15 at 21:12

I'm unclear if this is a new build or a remodel. If it's a new build, is there any way to add about 4 feet to the kitchen? I just think with all your requirements, those few extra feet would be golden.

I don't see anyway you can have double fridge/freezer space in the room you have without severely compromising your storage and prep space. How far away is the garage? Or laundry? Is there some other space you can use for secondary fridge storage? We have a full-size fridge and full-size freezer in our garage. Since we are each in the garage at least a couple times a day when we leave and return, it's easy to just grab something needed when returning home. Would that work for you?

Sorry I don't have anything else helpful to add. This is a fascinating discussion and I'm learning a lot from it, too, so I mainly wanted to bookmark it so I can get updates.

Good luck on planning a kitchen that will function well for you.

Funkycamper - its a new build - and every inch was a struggle. We are in the city (Toronto) and the laws around gfa (gross floor area) are very strict. we had to go to a special commitee to get what extra we have (6month process - and we were fortunate to get approved). We do not have a garage (living space is too valuable to be used for a vehicle) and our laundry room is in the basement.

We are going to have builtins all along the outside wall - aside from the desk area - we are fine with having pantry items stored there too.

You must have a very large family because otherwise I just don't understand having an island with seating exactly next to a breakfast nook with seating and exactly next to the dining room with seating. I really think a better use of the breakfast nook would be either a full wall of pull out storage shelves or the pantry shown above. Or you could keep the nook and get rid of the island seating (although that is not as attractive to me). And if you do have a large family this seems like a really tight space. Good luck.

practigal, per my op "We do a fair bit of hosting as it's the only way to be sure our youngest is safe from cross contamination. I have a large family who live out of the country - when they visit it's for months.

We also host the kids friends - so multiple eating locations are used."

As an example, this past year we had my mother, sister and niece stay with us for 9 weeks - at the same time! Yes, my DH is a good man.

I think in your case I'd go with the most recent layout, which you liked, but switch the oven to where buehl had the fridge and put fridge and freezer side by side protruding a bit into the family room. Encase them with full depth side panels facing family room. You can gain a few inches here and there on that run, e.g. 30" pot drawers to left and right of range instead of 30+24+24, which means the freezer won't go too far into the space.

I believe the icons are counter depth, aren't they?

Further advantage, the wall of stainless steel won't be facing the family room.

This post was edited by robotropolis on Thu, Jan 15, 15 at 7:33

I just read through and commented on your form vs. function thread and sense your frustration. Space limitations often require compromise. I'm dealing with similar issues while working on my own layout. One thing that made sense for me and may help you was to decide what was the priority between everyday use vs. occasional use.

For me, this means that I might not ever be able to use every single extension leaf in my dining room table for the few times a year because of a peninsula I'm installing. But this will gain me much needed counter space and allow for a prep sink which will make my regular, daily functions so much better. I can find other ways to seat overflow diners.

I'm wondering if you should simply consider that when family visits, you might need to set up a temporary table for them to eat at that isn't necessarily where you'd want a table all the time but it works for the 9 weeks you need it and then is out of the way for the other 45 weeks you don't need it. If you went with the pantry ideas you could, for example, put your extra freezer in there so you don't have the monolith of appliances you expressed concern about and then have a cute, little folding table and chairs in there that you can easily set up for overflow guests, then quickly put away when not needed. In fact, you could even put in a narrow space hidden within the walls of the pantry with a cabinet door on it so you have a perfectly sized space to slide them into so they're not taking up a lot of space within the pantry itself.

Or a cute flip-up table on the wall so you just need to store the folding chairs.

There are some really cute options out there. Even card tables/chairs come in much nicer options than just utilitarian metal styles.

Just a thought.

I'm thinking the same thing as Robo....try swapping the fridge/freezer with the oven.

Maybe something like this? :)

Thank you for giving me another option for the icons (with trim kit 66').

I think this could work. Makes the kitchen look more like a galley (yes, not a really galley) and less congested in one area. Nicely spreads out the appliances and cabinetry.

What is the ideal (and doable) depth of our island (buehl mentioned a min or 41.5')? DH wants to narrow the aisles to deepen the island.

I would keep your island fairly minimal because you've got such a tight squeeze. And you've got appliances and seating in all your aisles. I'd go 40-41.5" on the island. I've got a 40" peninsula and it is comfortable for adults to sit there. Mind you, it doesn't have a sink in it, but I think you're going to have to get used to some splashing from the sink.

Maybe you could go for a farmhouse sink that's designed to be mounted right at the front of the sink cab to give a couple of extra inches of clearance behind the sink. Or something like the IKEA domsjo that's a bit of a topmount, maybe the back lip would catch some water.

42" is really a comfortable minimum for aisles if you can manage it. I know people make do with less and some people enjoy the cockpit feel but 42" is my min. Of course you could have a line dance in the middle of my kitchen and I quite like the open space.

This post was edited by robotropolis on Fri, Jan 16, 15 at 10:46

We've been using a chest of drawers in our kitchen to play with island or peninsula placement. For us, we've found that 44" is our absolute minimum for aisles, prefer 48". And this is just for the two of us. With kids, visiting relatives, your kid's friends, I just think narrowing your aisles will be a mistake. Congestion issues can get annoying really fast. The small gain on the island wouldn't be worth the loss of good traffic flow.