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Kitchen Island Clearance Dimensions-Continued

Posted by jeff2013 (My Page) on
Tue, Aug 6, 13 at 22:41

Updates:

Links to old thread to see the kitchen design progress and other forums for background information about the overall build.

1. Previous thread
Kitchen Island Clearance Dimensions

2. Bath forum thread
Bath Layout Help

3. Building forum thread
Help with Elevations and Roofs- Will They Work?

Thanks! JF
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I have maxed out the number of posts (150) in my previous thread asking for layout help with the kitchen in my new build. I am really grateful for all inputs that I have received so far.

This is kind of embarassing as I am still trying different layouts.

New layout (ver13D)
1.I pushed the cooktop down and also relocated the sink with the intention to reduce working distance between fridge and cooktop and to encourage the use of the of the (instead of the ) as prep area.
2. I am labeling the different zones to see if we can get trained to use them as planned.
3. There is a concern about traffic to/from dinning/playroom cutting into the work triangle.

If this still does not look right, next I am going to try the idea of rotating the island 90 degree to make the island oriented along the direction of the long leg the L walls. That was the idea in the original 2 island layout.

Looking forward to your critical reviews. Any comment/suggestion is appreciated!

JF

This post was edited by jeff2013 on Wed, Aug 7, 13 at 15:07


Follow-Up Postings:

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RE: Kitchen Island Clearance Dimensions-Continued

The fundamental problem is that I am trying to use a square area of 16ft by 16ft from the original 2 island concept. However, the idea kitchen layou such as a gallery is a rectangle. My current kitchen of 14ftx 11ft is a gallery with no island.It has sink/dw and fridge on on side and range on opposite side. It is much smaller but works really well for us.

JF


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RE: Kitchen Island Clearance Dimensions-Continued

Some small modifications (ver13E)
1. Move cooktop up a litttle bit to shorten its distance to prep sink.

Cooktop has to stay right below the bottom side of the island for a L turn avoid extra steps. I have created a shaded area in the aisle to show the L. I have indicated 2 grey circles 1ft front of prep sink and cooktop to represent a person's position. It looks like that a person needs to turn sideway (90degree) and then walk straight for about of 4ft.

Fridge to prep sink is easy walk arcoss the 45" aisle.
The cooktop to fridge has a relative large distance of 9'5".

I can do some mock ups o fine tune the positioning. It seems that we may become easily adaptive to the walking pattern.

2. Put a 3' large window to align with the island position in the middle. Move the oven up accordingly.

There are concerns about possible traffic cutting through the work zone. However, this might not be too bad because the two reasonas as follows
A. There is a big empty space of 6ft by 8ft in the area indicated by a different tiled pattern.
B. Snack/Microwave, Cleanup Sink/DW, Oven are placed out of the work zone.

Please let me know your thoughts about this layout. Thanks! JF


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RE: Kitchen Island Clearance Dimensions-Continued

Jeff- Does this mean you're NOT going to have any stool seating in front of the prep area? Just a couple of stools at the curved end of the island?


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RE: Kitchen Island Clearance Dimensions-Continued

One thing I have learned is that it is near impossible to have a perfect kitchen. I believe that there is way too much thought put into it. Most people are not professional chefs and will not have 4 people trying to cook at once in the kitchen. While I believe there is great information on this forum from some great designers, Id just put something together that you like.

My design was something I really liked but designers said that the walk was too far. 16' isnt that far...its 5 steps. If we need to redesign something to make something into 4 steps, that is crazy. I was also suggested a prep sink (dont really want one) to cut down the walking distance by 2 steps. While my layout may not be what kitchen designers feel as "efficient", its the same layout as many expensive kitchens seen on Houzz.


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RE: Kitchen Island Clearance Dimensions-Continued

I like this layout Wed, Aug 7, 13 at 2:22 best so far. This gives you the right views while prepping and a great triangle. I think why you are right about why these dimensions are fundamentally challenging.

In latest layout, could you prep while someone else opens the fridge to get something? It looks like yes though barely so. Someone could certainly re-heat leftovers for a late afternoon snack or make a lunch sandwich while cook preps for dinner..

That oven would work well with what I did last night - baked bacon batches, enough for a month or 2 of breakfasts and BLT sandwiches. (I bake bacon on 2 mesh cooling racks like this http://amzn.to/159vHFK above 2 foiled jellyroll pans to catch the grease. Pepper and paprika on top of the bacon, 25 min at 375. Roll them up in paper towels 1 layer thick and store in fridge and freezer. Reheat in micro on 30% power on top of a paper towel which gets more fat out. Advantage: Less fat in the bacon than when made in the skillet, less cleanup. Facilitates fast breakfasts and BLT sandwiches.)

With my oven door open I can pull out the platters with something dangerously hot, like grease in bottom of pan, and easily put both platters on the island opposite the oven. That long stretch across from your prep sink would become the cooling area for cookies, roasted chicken or veggies, and maybe the serving area for less formal (banquette) Thanksgiving and Christmas dinners, etc.

BTW, I *really* like how you are using that dead corner space for a laundry chute. In fact, you have no dead corners at all.

My 2 requirements as "you must add this to my favorite plan or else I must find another builder" for a David Weekley semi custom build-on-your-lot program was the laundry chute and addition of a shower in the powder room right near the garage. That shower is where all dirty people stop to shower before tracking over everything else. It's also my favorite place to shower in the winter because it's the smallest room and steams up the fastest :-). I wish I had put one of those bright red heatlamps in the ceiling directly above that shower since that bathroom has no windows. Plus, having a full bath there vs a half bath definitely adds $ value for resale, much more than say, a coat rack would.

I'd love to see your take on Lavender Lass' T-shaped island layout from the other thread on Tue, Aug 6, 13 at 16:13

What Lass did there seemed very clever. That T-island shape also facilitates people actually sitting across from each other and being able to see each other when they talk which is nice. You could use the seating area in the "T" for baking purposes (and get help from those seated to populate the baking trays.) You'd have a good stretch of empty space directly across from the cooktop too.

Old thread:
http://ths.gardenweb.com/forums/load/kitchbath/msg0714540511177.html?150


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RE: Kitchen Island Clearance Dimensions-Continued

With the fridge in that location, my natural inclination would be to take stuff out of the fridge, place on the counter directly across and prep right there at the prep sink exactly where you have it colored. I think a 45" aisle is enough, especially since it is French door fridge and offset slightly to the prep area and offset even more to the prep sink. I would still put the faucet on the corner, because if you had a helper, they would be able to help on the short side. You could also make it blue and label it prep helper. : )

IMO, leave your seating there as well with plans for the stool to tuck up under the island to the left as you had before. When not being used for prep, that area can do double duty as seating. And the stool is located conveniently close for prep while seated, what a luxury !

Not loving the HVAC units right outside the window. Have no idea how much noise you will get from that or if it will even be a problem. Plus, didn't you say that faces west and it's Texas ? In the laundry room, you can have blinds over the window, but typically a kitchen window is open.

I lean towards having the oven back by the pantry because at the other end it takes away from your cabinet/storage space close to the cleanup sink. If you have the oven by the pantry and slide the cooktop about 1 foot further away, it should leave you with plenty of space between the cooktop and the oven stack.

On the blog for Rhome410 she explains her kitchen and all of the different zones (see all the links right above her comments section) http://rhome410.blogspot.com/p/my-kitchen.html


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RE: Kitchen Island Clearance Dimensions-Continued

I like it best so far. I'd probably switch the sink and prep zone, personally. I don't think it would be more difficult to set things out of the fridge down to the right of the sink rather than directly behind you. The added bonus is that it puts the sink also adjacent to your snack area. I love my snack/breakfast area next to the fridge, but don't have convenient water there, and it would come in handy sometimes. Plus, I'm a dragger, a dripper, and a spiller, so the closer my chopped veggies are to my cook top, the better.

Personally, we have 44" between the fridge doors and the end of our peninsula counter. My DH and can stand there with both doors open getting things out or putting things away and my dd can scoot by him with no extra effort. I recall it clearly because I marveled about it when it happened while waxing poetic about how much I love our new kitchen. ;)

Something to keep in mind is that your centered window will become the focal point in this plan. Does that work well with what is outside that window? Can you do a really stunning window or window treatments? Personally, I like the window as a focal point, but the current trend is to make the range and a fancy hood the focal point. I attempted to avoid a focal point at all in my own kitchen in order to draw the eye out to the new family room.


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RE: Kitchen Island Clearance Dimensions-Continued

More modifications (Ver13G)

1. Slide out the stools hidden under the island overhang. Again, they are bonus features that I would love to have. However,I need to make sure that they do not impede the main function of the kitchen.

2. Extend and straight out the prep area to include the counter right across the fridge. Prep at 5.5ft long.

3. Relocated the prep faucet at the corner of the square sink. Indicate a secondary prep area for a second cook. It can be used as landing for the oven too.

4. Two small windows of 20" on either side of the cooktop. This is to provide natural lighting for the bottom cooking area close to the pantry.

5. Slide down the bottom section down by 6" to give 51" in front of the fridge. That means a smaller dining/playroom (from 15'x11.5' to 15'x11'). A larger pantry with 3' x 4' empty space to turn around inside the closet.

Concerns/Questions

A. Does the change of island shape from a half circle round head to a quarter circle round corner make sense?

It may tie to the stools, the views from the work zone, and the curved breakfast banquette area better.

Not sure if that will look funny from the great room. One of the complaint that I received about my ealier design is that the island is like a bullet. I am not sure if she means I need a wider island or the round head does not look right.

B. Assuming that I now have stolen space from dinner/playroom to add 6" the length of the kitchen area from top to bottom (I need to check with the architect but it is likely doable). Where shall I put it?

How would you allocate the added space differently? Say, make the island 6" wider instead of 6" more clearance in fron of the fridge. And add 6" more to the cook counter run instead of a larger pantry.

It looks like that I may get this to work OK based the feedbacks that I have received so far.

Next, I would try out Lavender Lass's T island design. Hopefully, we would be able to choose one out of the two to go forward.

Thanks! JF

This post was edited by jeff2013 on Wed, Aug 7, 13 at 13:08


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RE: Kitchen Island Clearance Dimensions-Continued

If your goal is to stand at the island and have the view out the windows of the breakfast area...I think this would work. The stools are no longer in the prep area and you have a nice 'snack area' by the fridge.

I don't know if it's the most efficient set up, but it does shorten up the work triangle. One questions...where are you going to have your dishes? The clean up area is outside of the main work areas (which is okay) but is it convenient to put glasses away? Would you need another dishwasher in the island? Does that interfere with the prep area? Would a dish drawer there...solve or cause a bunch of problems?


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RE: Kitchen Island Clearance Dimensions-Continued

I like your latest drawing, Wed Aug 7 12:50 for the island, but I would go back to having the oven in the corner and the range toward the center. Ovens aren't used consistently. In other words, you pop something in and leave it then take it out. I like it better in the corner - more out of the way. Second, I think you will actually like having open counter space where you show the oven now for overflow dirty dishes, etc. This of course makes no sense if you are planning on an under counter oven. If you are planning an under counter oven, then you could actually put it in the island somehow to the left of the prep sink but not to interfere with refrig doors. I imagine prepping and opening oven to left and putting the dish in to cook.

Also, I wouldn't really worry about the refrig being so far away from the range if you do go back to the original location. Honestly, as someone else pointed out, it's really not that big a deal to have those extra few steps. My refrig is opposite the range with an 7' island in between. I simply unload what I need to prep for a meal, prep it at the sink or island and then cook it. The refrig is out of the way for kids to help themselves to snacks and drinks.


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RE: Kitchen Island Clearance Dimensions-Continued

I like your latest drawing, Wed Aug 7 12:50 for the island, but I would go back to having the oven in the corner and the range toward the center. Ovens aren't used consistently. In other words, you pop something in and leave it then take it out. I like it better in the corner - more out of the way. Second, I think you will actually like having open counter space where you show the oven now for overflow dirty dishes, etc. This of course makes no sense if you are planning on an under counter oven. If you are planning an under counter oven, then you could actually put it in the island somehow to the left of the prep sink but not to interfere with refrig doors. I imagine prepping and opening oven to left and putting the dish in to cook.

Also, I wouldn't really worry about the refrig being so far away from the range if you do go back to the original location. Honestly, as someone else pointed out, it's really not that big a deal to have those extra few steps. My refrig is opposite the range with an 7' island in between. I simply unload what I need to prep for a meal, prep it at the sink or island and then cook it. The refrig is out of the way for kids to help themselves to snacks and drinks.


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RE: Kitchen Island Clearance Dimensions-Continued

New layout (ver13H).

1. Move oven back to the corner close to pantry.
I think a longer continous counter run makes sense. It will serve as holding place for dirty dishes/pots during cooking and will also serve as counter for second cook (along with secndary prep area).

2. The cooktop is at a more centeral location. It is aligned with the rectangular long run straight section of the island. Two small windows of 20" are placed to either side of the cooktop.

3. FYI, I have included an enlarged work area, which has frig, prep, prep sink, cook top, cook counter, and oven. Everything is inside a 13.5'x8' rectangular region.

The second cook area is nearby and the cleanup and snack zones are outside the work zone. I have also indicated the distance from cooktop to cleanup sink (for dropping dishes, washing dirty pans,etc) and the the distance from snack bar to prep sink (to empty drinks for example).

Main concerns / questions

A. By slightly moving up the cooktop, the straight path from prep sink to cooktop is 4.5', which is close enough. However, the corner of the prep sink might pinch into the short cut. I have also indicated a curve planed workway there. Not sure if we can get trained to walk that way back and forth or I shall consider a round corner / round sink there and/or increase the cooktop to sink aisle clearance size from 45" to 48" or bigger.

The direct walk distance between fridge and cooktop at 9.5ft is OK. Because it is such a longer distance, I think we shall easily adjust ourselves to avoid bumping into the corner.

B. The desired main cook surface of 39" long is shared by the oven. There is a concern if we need to cook and bake at the same time that space might not be good. However, I do not see that happen often so this is really not a problem for us.

C. Again, please check the aisle sizes of 42" to DW/sink, 45" to cooktop, and 51" to fridge for me. Are then about right?

Thanks! JF

PS. At the suggestions of Mare Luce and Angela, I have crossed linked the two threads by adding link to previous thread in the first post here and by adding link to this thread from my last post in the old thread.

In addtion, I have links to other forums. While I am in dear needs over a lot of areas in my house desgin and welcome your inputs there, the focus here is to get the kitchen - the critical part of my house floor plan right.

Thanks again! JF

This post was edited by jeff2013 on Wed, Aug 7, 13 at 15:56


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RE: Kitchen Island Clearance Dimensions-Continued

Jeff- I am not the one to tell you ideal space allowance per stool...but it looks a little cramped with that third stool. Maybe someone else can give you the recommended dimensions?

This plan is not nearly as pretty as yours (sorry!) but I thought I'd post it to show the difference with stool seating.

From Farmhouse plans


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Picture

To give an idea...the stool seating could be lower or same height as island. One example

From Farmhouse plans


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RE: Kitchen Island Clearance Dimensions-Continued

Same height (from Houzz with link attached)

And even taller than island

From Farmhouse plans

Here is a link that might be useful: Link to Houzz


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RE: Kitchen Island Clearance Dimensions-Continued

Here comes the layout with a T-shaped island (ver14)

1. Sink/DW moved to island. Sink across cooktop and close to oven/microwave.

2. Snack/Oven/Microwave moved to end wall previoulsy taken by cleanup sink.

3. Fridge close to pantry with a 1ft pull out in between.

4. Cooktop centered on side wall (excluding fridge) and aligned with top edge of island.

5. 4 counter runs from 3.5 to 5ft long fo prep/cleanup, cook, baking/secondary cook, and snack.

6. 3 stools each taking 33" seating space at the T tip.

7. A 60" by 20" china cabinet at the previous snack area close to coats.

8. HVAC closet relocated to opposite side of the dining/playroom hallway. Pantry stays.

Concerns/questions
A. While the sink on one side, cooktop and fridge on opposit side setup is very efficient as in gallery kitchen, I need to make sure the work zone is not too tight.

54" aisle from cooktop to sink and 44" aisle from fridge to prep/cleanup counter.

When both DW and fridge opens, the gap is only 7". But I do not see that happen a lot. It may be OK when the DW door is flat, one need to open and close th fridge to pass.

2. Island becomes smaller and I have not checked the cabinet storage yet but I am concerned if my storage needs are covered.

3. DW is on island. That means extra steps to place dishes unless the under counter space to the left of the DW is adequate for that.

4. Not sure how it would look like. The 3 seats at the T tip are well positioned without affecting the overall flow. However, it looks like there are many cutouts in the layout and some may need a few turns to walk through the kitchen. Need to find ways to make it look right.

Next, I am going to compile a list of pros and cons of the best three layouts so far ( there may be some changes but I believe that we got the basic ideas there) and make a decision from that.

Please let me know
(a) Which ones are acceptable to you? That means you can live with such a kitchen or don't mind cooking there.

(b) Which one you like most? Please also kindly explain why.

Sorry that I have not have a chance to respond to your comments yet but I have read all of them and would get to them later. Thanks!

JF


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RE: Kitchen Island Clearance Dimensions-Continued

Slight change to a previous layou (ver13G1)
1. Oven pused to the corner.

2. More dimensions added.

I am looking at the three layouts as follows
A. Ver13G1
B. Ver13H
C. Ver14

This post was edited by jeff2013 on Thu, Aug 8, 13 at 8:54


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RE: Kitchen Island Clearance Dimensions-Continued

Put the drawings of the three layouts in one post for better side by side comparision. Just learned how to do this.
Let me know if they do not show up properly on your computer. Thanks! JF

A. Rectangle Island Oven Up (Ver13G1)

 photo Kitchen0807_Plan13G1_zps3e2c5edc.png

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B. Rectangle Island Oven Down (Ver13H)

 photo Kitchen0807_Plan13H_zps71e1542b.png

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C. T-Shaped Island (Ver14)

 photo Kitchen0807_Plan14_zpsaf6dd998.png

This post was edited by jeff2013 on Thu, Aug 8, 13 at 9:45


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RE: Kitchen Island Clearance Dimensions-Continued

Hi Jeff,

These options all have pros/cons. I think it is a good idea to post your 3 or 4 favourites like you suggested.

Regarding the T shaped island, Lavender drew it differently on the Aug 6 4:13 post. She had the clean-up on the wall backing to laundry, not on the island (I don't particularly like the clean-up on island in your layout). I have not read all the comments on this thread, but do think you should consider Lavender's original T island in your short list.

Good luck.

Carol


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RE: Kitchen Island Clearance Dimensions-Continued

Round corner romoved from the island
A. Rectangle Island with Oven at Top Corner (Ver13G2)
 photo Kitchen0807_Plan13G2_zps63e74f53.png

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B. Rectangle Island with Oven at Bottom Corner (Ver13H1)
 photo Kitchen0807_Plan13H1_zps489028d4.png

Next, I am going to redo the T-shaped island by following Lavender Lass's drawing as close as possible.
Thanks! JF

This post was edited by jeff2013 on Thu, Aug 8, 13 at 15:26


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RE: Kitchen Island Clearance Dimensions-Continued

Here is another layout (ver15) closer to Lavender's orginal idea.

1. Gallery setup of prep sink on one side and cooktop, fridge on the opposite side with a 54" aisle. No question this would be very efficent for cooking.

2. T-shaped island with DW/sink off island and on the side wall. Easier to store dishes.

3. Pantry and HVAC swapped to make the flow between dining/playroom and kitchen better. It is good to be able see small child while we are cooking.

4. Oven/microwave placed in the corner with a small 2ft snack bar.

Concerns / questions

A. The oven/microwave/snack area is awkward. We were very reluctant to go the no wall oven option but not sure if there is any way to fix this.

B. Again, there are some cut outs for the T and turns to walk through. Not sure how it will look / fell like there.

Next, I am going to think about the 4 best plans (versions 13G2, 13H1, 14, and 15, or some variants of them) that we have come up with so far and compare the pros and cons of each and make a decision.

Look foward to your feedback in my decision making process.

Thanks!
JF

This post was edited by jeff2013 on Thu, Aug 8, 13 at 15:23


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RE: Kitchen Island Clearance Dimensions-Continued

OK. Posting the T-shaped island no wall oven layout (ver16). This one I did it without wife's nod yet.

For the layouts that I have posted out so far, which ones are acceptable to you? And if you see more than one acceptable, which is your favorite one? Please briefly explain.

Your insights on what works and what does work for you and your kitchen experience will help me make an informed decsion for our family. I appreciate it very much!

JF


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The only thing I don't like about some of the various permutations is the consistent placement of the DW in the outboard position on that counter run.

In a plan like 8/8/13 9:43 B, (13H, 13H1) I would want to put it to the right of the sink, I think.

But where does everything go that comes out of the DW? I can't figure that out.


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RE: Kitchen Island Clearance Dimensions-Continued

Jeff- You could have a plate rack over the sink, with an upper cabinet to the right, to store dishes. You could also store some in the island, directly across from the clean up sink.

If you like two ovens, you could have a larger range...there seems to be plenty of room in your layout for one.

Do you use the microwave while cooking or only for snacks? That location is great for popcorn, but might not work for cooking. (I'd just use it for popcorn and melting butter or chocolate.) You could have a beverage fridge there, too...if you need more storage for water bottles, pop, juice, etc. Just an idea :)


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RE: Kitchen Island Clearance Dimensions-Continued

Someone (can't think who) posts if you are right handed, dishwasher is best on left side of sink. Also, if DW was on right of sink, it would block access to upper cabinets (for unloading) to left and bottom of area marked Chute.

If you go with T shaped island, it needs to be a bit longer. That small of an area will have knees knocking. About 3' minimum to 3'6" better length would be enough.

My favorite is the 13H versions ... Bullet or one round corner islands are my favorite, oven in bottom corner by pantry. But move cooktop 3.5" closer to oven, so you can have 36" wide stack of drawers between cooktop and oven.

I don't remember if you said what you use your MW most for. We use ours almost exclusively for cooking and would want it closer to the cooking zone. For example, we eat a lot of frozen veggies (we don't like all the sodium in canned), so MW those to go with dinner. Sometimes we will microwave the ready made 90 second rice packets to go with dinner. Or we wilt spinach for just a few seconds in the MW and top with feta, diced tomatoes, and raspberry walnut vinaigrette. Even when fixing a French bread pizza or a pot pie, we MW a little bit first and then put in the oven to bake. The only snack thing that I can think of that we use the MW for is popcorn.


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RE: Kitchen Island Clearance Dimensions-Continued

I think I like the most recent one best, 16, but I have been urging you to lose the wall oven since the beginning in order to make the island work. :)

If you absolutely MUST have a wall oven, I would consider version 16 w/ a wall oven (no MW, like it at the snack zone, but as pp said that depends, we use our for leftovers, primarily) at the top of the range run. This will obviously reduce the amount of space you have around the cook top, but with a nice expanse of counter directly behind you on the island, I'm not sure that's so bad.

Some small tweaks I would look at. I think I'd reduce the counter space to the left of the prep sink to 1' or 18" and have a larger expanse of counter directly across from the range. It also seems that you have a very large amount of filler between fridge and wall. I'm not sure you need that much (it looks close to 12") especially with the opening to the DR right there. Reducing it to the minimum could help with clearances if you add a wall oven.

BTW, I like the DW where it is, but you really do need to think about where you will store things as part of narrowing down your favorite layout. You could put a dish drawer in the island that opens toward the DW. It seems lots of people on this board have been happy with an arrangement such as that.

If the entire gray portion of your island is open for knee space, I think you are fine as it is. If not, you may want to do as pp suggested and lengthen the "t" toward the great room slightly. It really wouldn't change anything in the layout and you seem to have plenty of room to do that.


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RE: Kitchen Island Clearance Dimensions-Continued

I like version 16 (T with clean-up on wall backing to laundry) the best too as the zones are nice and separated with this version. I prefer the pantry, rather than the one with deeper shelves. I very much like with the T version, that you could look out into the great room, breakfast seating, island seating and easily see who was arriving home when prepping). You could consider putting in a below the counter oven, perhaps even raise one portion of a counter a few inches. It doesn't need to be a range, if you guys like not having have the cook at cooktop need to move over to allow access to oven. The Electrolux (Elux)version of the below counter oven has nice easy slide out racks. From my reading on the appliance forum that one seems to be highly rated for below counter applications. We will likely be getting the Elux as our oven is below counter (although we have it raised in the plan 5 inches). The controls for the Elux oven are on the top (Wave controls).

Carol


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RE: Kitchen Island Clearance Dimensions-Continued

At this point, I have narrowed down to three kinds of layouts as follows
A. Rectangle Island (Ver13H and its variants latest as 13H3 with round corner)
In this layout, fridge on bottom wall, prep across the aisle. cooktop on the right long wall. DW/sink/cooktop, and oven on the L. Different viarants of this kind include half circle bullet head and quater circle round corner.

B.T-shaped Island (Ver16 and its variants).
In this layout, the island and the fridge are rotated 90 degree so the island is parrallel to long leg of L wall for an efficient galley layout. Again, prep on island, DW/sink/cooktop and fridge on the L (with oven taken out). The tip of the T is a square for 3 person seating.

C. A combination of options 1 and 2 (ver17 to be created, but we had this idea earlier). Sam as in the 2, the rectangle part is in parrallel with the side wall. Similar setup for appliances. A long curved side instead of T will be added for seating.

Attached is updated layout option 1 (ver13H3 with one round corner island)
I did some 3D drawings. They may not look good but the intention is for me to see how it looks like. It would also help me identify the storage areas (I am not there yet) and see how the kitchen really connects to other parts of the house. Hopefully this is good information for you to see the different options better.

Attached are floor plans for the breakfast/powder/mudroom/laundry/kitchen area, and some 3D views for the kitchen.

I have received some excellent comments regarding the different layouts and I need more inputs about your favorite one(s) and your feedback on this particular one (Ver13H3).

Finally the architect offered to meet with me today after the project is put on hold for 2-3weeks (ther are some other issues). I would like to have it later this afternoon or tomorrow if he is willing to work. (This is being hard on me, the first time doing the 3D and I stayed up the whole night for this).

Next, I am going to do the same thing for the othe two options. Hopefully, I can do it much faster now. Again, this i for plan evaluation purpose, not as actual design. Sorry for the mismatched furniture placement I just did what was quick for me.

Re: DW position and dish storage
Yes. We are right handed and it is natural to put the DW to the right side. However, we did it that way because the Dw will open to the aisle away from the work zone. And there would be some problem about cabinets/drawers access when the DW door is open if it is on the corner.

Good question regarding the dishes/glasses storage. I am not very sure but I really need to get into that now. For example, if I need more storage on th island, then I will reduced the number of seats under the island.

Sorry that I could not get back to your comments but I would do it later. It would be great if I can get this settled before the meeting.

Thank you so much! JF

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1. Kitchen area layout
 photo FloorPlanMain_zpsf3a38e64.png

2. Kitchen layout (Ver 13H3 with one round corner for the island)
 photo Plan13H3RCS_zps2dbb4624.png

3. 3D view of main floor (except master bath area on another thread)
 photo Kitchen0809_Plan13H3RS_mainFloor_zps088194f7.png

4. Kitchen from garage entry

 photo Kitchen0810_Plan13H3RoundCornerShower_Garage_zpsb30477c0.png
5. Kitchen from great room
 photo Kitchen0810_Plan13H3RoundCornerShower_GreatRoom_zps7ebc0408.png

6. Cleanup Sink/Prep area view
 photo Kitchen0810_Plan13H3RoundCornerShower_PrepCleanUp_zps3a4548d8.png

7. Cook area view
 photo Kitchen0810_Plan13H3RoundCornerShower_cook_zps7a96b11d.png

Let me know if you have any problem seeing the pictures. I did not downsized them yet.

Thank you for your time. JF


---------------
Edited to show microwave drawer under counter from garage entry view of kitchen. Other views not updated yet.

This post was edited by jeff2013 on Wed, Aug 28, 13 at 12:15


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RE: Kitchen Island Clearance Dimensions-Continued

I have my dish and flatware storage in drawers across the aisle from my dishwasher and it works great for unloading. I do walk my glassware to a cabinet near the refrigerator (even though I could have them in the dish area) because I like the glasses more accessible to people getting beverages.
If you plan dish storage in your island across from the dishwasher I think you will really like it. Here is how it looks with diswasher open and drawer open. My aisle is 48 inches. It is so easy to stand next to the dishwasher and just do a bit of a pivot to put the dishes away.
Photobucket Pictures, Images and Photos


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RE: Kitchen Island Clearance Dimensions-Continued

@Badgergal,

Thank you for your input on the dish/glassware storage. The picturs helps a lot. Your kitchen looks beautiful. I really like the idea of the oven at the angled sector and the curve at the left end of the counter run. My island aisle is 42 inches to the DW and 48 inches to other two sides in this particular layout. I am trying the other two now.

BTW, what is your ceiling height? I plan to do ceiling height cabinet too so that may give me some idea.


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RE: Kitchen Island Clearance Dimensions-Continued

I think ver13H3 is looking great. I'm glad you left the curve in the island as it complements the curve in the building structure. Enjoy!


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RE: Kitchen Island Clearance Dimensions-Continued

Jeff, my ceiling height is 8 ft. My kitchen is small. Previously it was 10 X11. We were able to capture 2 extra feet by shifting and reducing the entryway so now it is 12x11. Still small but it works for us. The previous picture doesn't show my curved island so since you are considering a curved island too, here is another shot of my kitchen. I did not want seating at my island. In this picture my pendants do not look evenly spaced but they are. I did hang the one above the sink a little higher than the other two. If you need to see pictures of the wall oven area, I think you can just click on the photo to get to my photo bucket account.
Photobucket Pictures, Images and Photos


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RE: Kitchen Island Clearance Dimensions-Continued

@Launra,

Very good to know that you like the look of ver13H3. I am getting to this stage of the kitchen based on input from you and many other ppl on this forum.

@Badgergal,
Thank you for the information. That will help me plan the cabinet design.

Enclosed are two addtional layouts
1. Ver16B Floor plan & 3D view
 photo Kitchen0810_Plan16B_zps4a586cd9.png

 photo Kitchen0810_Plan16B_3D_zpsb5482606.png

2. Ver17 Floor plan & 3D view
 photo Kitchen0812_Plan17_zps96067b0d.png

 photo Kitchen0810_Plan17_3D_zps33f067e2.png

I have met with the architect and presented him the three options. He mentioned that it is better to have the HVAC at a more centralized location of the house.

At this point, I would explore more about storage arrangement of ver13H3. This is not the final layout yet, but I really like to move forward to see how it will work.

On the persoal note, we just have our new born baby. Both mom and baby ae doing fine. I am sharing this information for two reasons. First, the new house and therefore the kitchen is mainly due to the fact we need a larger house because we are outgrowing our current one. Second, I have received tremendous helpful information from a lot of people here and some of you have share a lot with me. I am doing this to show my deep appreciation for all the reviewers.

Thanks!
JF


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RE: Kitchen Island Clearance Dimensions-Continued

Congrats !!!!

I knew you had a new baby on the way, but I didn't realize you had a new baby literally "on the way" ! : )


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RE: Kitchen Island Clearance Dimensions-Continued

Wonderful news!! Enjoy every precious moment with your family.

BTW, I think all three versions are nice. The last version (17) is my favourite, followed by the T design (16) as both designs put the bulk of the prep counter space close to cooktop. The other reason I like those two options better is it separates the clean-up zone more from the prep zone, and if one person is cleaning and another prepping you don't have to be back to back.

Good luck getting sleep!

Carol


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RE: Kitchen Island Clearance Dimensions-Continued

Congratulations Jeff and family! How exciting! Now you don't have any more time to obsess over kitchen design, you are needed elsewhere!

I like the way things look in plan 17 as far as cooktop fairly symmetrical between fridge and wall oven, and you have a nice amount of prep space in all the right locations on island and around the cooktop. To me, the cooking wall in particular meets both form and function needs. The island itself can be curved, t-shaped or anything in between as long as you keep aisle width in mind. I kind of like the idea of people sitting there facing each other, but that doesn't mean it has to be so angular if you want to bring in some of the roundness of the dinette area.

Good luck and enjoy that little guy!


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RE: Kitchen Island Clearance Dimensions-Continued

I am back after two weeks almost exclusively with mom and baby. I have been cooking a lot of chicken soups lately. It is still hard not to think about the neverending kitchen design. :)

Here is my latest plan (ver18) combining some of the ideas from both ver17 and ver13H3.

A. Floor plan of Ver18
 photo Kitchen0821_Plan18_FloorPlan_zps86963905.png

B. 3D view of ver18
 photo Kitchen0821_Plan18_3D_zps51fe39c8.png

I kind of like this particular layout. The main concern is now we have a much reduced pantry (3' x 3'2"). I am also not sure about how it will look like, especially with the HVAC door/filter opening into the kitchen (there is a shelf behind the HVAC/fridge in the dinning/playroom).

Please let me know if your have any thoughts and suggestions on this. Thanks! JF

This post was edited by jeff2013 on Fri, Aug 23, 13 at 17:41


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RE: Kitchen Island Clearance Dimensions-Continued

Hi -

I had similar pinch points and agonized over kitchen layout. I can't even remember now the exact distances but I can measure if you want. Your kitchen is larger than mine, but there are similarities.

My fridge opens on the side of the island like that - it works well, no issues at all (And yours will even more b/c you're looking at a French Door fridge.)

Our tightest spot was the corner of the island to a structural column. In the last photo you posted, it's essentially like that corner of the island on the right to your curved counter on the far right. We worried that it was too tight but it's totally fine. It's in a spot that really only one person might walk at a time and there's no "work" being done there. There is a beverage fridge beneath it that is ONLY for my husband ("Daddy's beer fridge" we call it) so we're never opening it to get in the way.)

I essentially have the sink flipped with your stovetop because of where the windows were. And my ovens are tucked towards the side like yours.

So, it's not perfect but it might give you an idea of how it might look and work - my island is narrower than yours. It's 48" wide x 64" long.

Just thought a visual might help!

This post was edited by akcorcoran on Fri, Aug 23, 13 at 17:59


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RE: Kitchen Island Clearance Dimensions-Continued

@Akcorcoran,

Your kitchen is very beautiful! The window, floor, granite, and white cabinets work really nice together. Thank you for sharing the pictures with me. This is really helpful for me to see how things are pieced together.

Yes. My latest layout (ver18) is similar to yours. A long L run of counters ends at the oven, and it is then follwed by a pass through and a fridge. I have microwave drawer under the counter on the fridge side wall while you have it under island counter. I think this may work for us.

I am always not sure if the ailses are good enough. If you could measure yours for me as a reference, that would be great. Thanks! JF


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RE: Kitchen Island Clearance Dimensions-Continued

That HVAC non-functional gap between 2 critical appliances
- fridge
- microwave in the counter area
would annoy me.

The 2 appliances we most frequently use in pairs are
Fridge --> Micro
Fridge --> Toaster oven

Even your T-shaped island plan has that problem though.
(of the microwave being far away from fridge)

Wish the micro drawer could fit either adjacent to your fridge or in the island, closely opposite the fridge in most of your plans. With a toaster oven nearby also, Ms. / Mr. Cook could could prepare a variety of mini-meals in a jiffy.


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RE: Kitchen Island Clearance Dimensions-Continued

Hi Jeff -

OK, I'm back!

First, on the microwave drawer in the island, we have ours there for the exact same reasons that MareLuce mentions. And, while it's not in the photos b/c it wasn't as glamourous, our toaster oven sits right on the counter to the right of the ovens, so it's like our own little "eat triangle" of fridge, microwave, toaster. Prep or any interaction happens at the island right above/beside it. :)

If you're looking to slot that in, ours is a 27" cabinet, not a 30" - The inside of all drawer microwaves are 24" so the cooking size is always the same, it's just the front that is bigger if you have a 30" cabinet, so just wanted to pass that on. (Ours is a Sharp which also rebrands to Wolf - save the $!)

Anyway, got out my trusty measuring tape and almost ALL of your aisles are bigger than ours, so you look good to me! A lot of people on here have wider aisles that we do - and I think it's important to consider who is and how you use your kitchen. Don't go under recommendations but don't be suckered into giving something up simply because something "should" be bigger.

We are pretty much a single-cook kitchen, or really single-cook on a certain task, and our kitchen was not huge, so we went with the recommended 42" aisles for the most part. And, our island is oriented differently. Any prep work is done on the sides, not the part by the sink, so that's different that most.

Anyway, we have the 42" between the island to the stovetop wall. Anyone standing and doing prep on the island is left of the prep sink, so there's no problem is someone else is standing at the stovetop at the same time (which never happens - it's usually me doing prep and the turning and putting on the stovetop, but in theory...)

42" between the sink and island - again, this is sort of unusual - there are no drawers or anything there b/c of the orientation. If there was, I'd definitely want a wider aisle like you have!

We have 4' between the fridge and the island b/c of the doors. That way, you can effectively walk behind someone who's standing with the fridge doors open.

And, our narrowest pinch point is exactly the same as yours! The corner from the island to our old structural column is 40 1/2" (or 3' 7 1/2") - same as yours. We could have made that slightly bigger if we arched the island more like yours, but I wanted room for two stools (yet to be purchased.) Our big pantry is there in that corner and it has split doors, so it works very well.

We have had 6 people working in our new kitchen at one time at various spots, with someone plunked at the end of the island, and had no collisions or crowding. I like folks to come together in the kitchen, but that's just me!

All in all, I might think about the microwave, but think you're fine with your aisles! Hope that helps - and let me know if I can answer any other questions.

Best,
Alexa


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RE: Kitchen Island Clearance Dimensions-Continued

@MareLuce,
I see the benefits of having microwave and fridge close to the fridge for mini-meals preparation. I will explore that idea more.

@Alexa,
Thank you for your detailed description of your microwave drawer placement and taking the aisle measurement. I am increasing the clearance in front of the fridge to 4' (same as yours).

Re: Microwave and Toaster Oven Placement
There are three possible locations for microwave/toaster oven: a) Snack area b) Island across the fridge c) Wall oven.

I am playing with the idea of placing the microwave over the oven (as a combo or separate unit). This would serve the cooking needs well, e.g. defrosting frozen meat. The apparent downside is the long walk of 11ft to the snack counter area or even the island stools.

I am placing the toaster oven in the snack area. As the item is too bulky to be on the island counter (and the under counter built-in option might be expensive?), the other place is counter close to the wall oven.

Re: Aisle Dimensions
Right now, I am doing 42" to DW/cleanup sink, 48" to fridge, and 56" from prep sink to cooktop. I would like to have enough clearance not to feel crowded, but I also need to keep things close without too many walking steps doing the various tasks. Another consideration is I do not want to lose too much island storage space. I also need the island size not to be too big so that it is still manageable for cleaning and it looks OK.

Attached is the ver18A with the microwave, toaster oven placement and aisle dimensions described above.

Please let me know if you have any comments on this or any previous plan. Thanks! JF

1. Floor Plan of Ver18A
 photo Kitchen0824_Plan18A_FloorPlan_zps97f8eced.png

2. 3D view of Ver18A
 photo Kitchen0824_Plan18A_3D_zps8311a431.png


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RE: Kitchen Island Clearance Dimensions-Continued

Hi Jeff, You know which floorplan my vote is for ! My main concern with the newest version is how small your pantry has gotten.


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RE: Kitchen Island Clearance Dimensions-Continued

Jeff- I don't like the HVAC there...it seems so out of place. Can you swap that with the pantry, again?

I know you're trying to make this perfect (aren't we all with our plans) but I feel like you're ending up with a dark, closed in space. The only view is behind the people at the island. The main sink is mainly behind the wall...and the fridge/HVAC area is not really fitting in with the contemporary look of the rest of the plan.

Is there absolutely NO view out those kitchen windows? Is the clerestory part of the architect's "look" for the house? Can you add larger windows or maybe even swap the sink and range?

At this point, I'd like to see a version that has (from right to left on L) fridge, dishwasher, sink, trash, corner, and then range with double oven. Keep the island with prep sink, but turn it 90 degrees and have seating on two sides...facing the range/breakfast nook and facing the main sink/larger windows. The pantry would be back on the other wall (where you have fridge/HVAC now) and move the HVAC back to the current pantry location.

Having a beverage fridge and microwave make sense next to the pantry (snack area) or you could have the microwave in the island. If you want a wall oven/microwave combo, then I'd have it by the pantry (closer to baking supplies) and the entire room would have a lot more light with the extra windows :)

From Farmhouse plans


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Bigger window/no wall oven

Unless you plan to have a wall oven to make it higher off the ground (for ease in reaching it) then I would use a range with double oven and put the microwave back by a beverage fridge. If you use the microwave for cooking, then probably in the island.

Also, I would have a really BIG window over the sink. So this is the plan with those changes.

From Farmhouse plans


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RE: Kitchen Island Clearance Dimensions-Continued

Lavender, if I remember correctly, Jeff has a 7 foot setback on that side of his property and the view from the window would be the side of his neighbor's 2 story house. And his HVAC units will be right outside that wall (would be right under the window), unless he moves them to another location. Plus that side of the kitchen faces West and it is in Texas. So a big window facing that way would blind you in the evening when the sun is going down and you are working in the kitchen (or sitting down to eat).

I like it better how you drew it with the pantry by the fridge and the HVAC closet separated or the pantry as it was In the version 13H location. What I don't like as much in the above plans is people have to cross the cleanup zone to get from fridge to cooking zone. With the fridge and cooktop in those locations, my natural inclination would be to take stuff out of the fridge and prep at the main sink right next to the fridge. I doubt I would carry it all the way around the island over to the prep sink. Depending on which cabinet dishes a stored in, people setting the table would cross thru cooking zone to get dishes.


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RE: Kitchen Island Clearance Dimensions-Continued

Jeff, I mean this in the nicest possible way: I just don't like it. It's an odd size, and the bullet-island is strange. No matter how many times you keep moving things, the pieces don't function properly. Something's off in the basics, but I can't say exactly what.

Worse, I have the feeling that you're not sold on the design either. Instead, it seems that you're sorta-kinda satisfied with this, given the constraints of your space.

This shouldn't be true. You're going to the trouble of building a house, and it should be exactly what you want (in most ways -- you'll never get 100%).

Two suggestions:

1. Toss everything and draw an ideal kitchen. The kitchen you'd design if you weren't working around these specific dimensions. That is, let go of the "but I must have this item". Let us see your ideal kitchen, and perhaps a fresh set of eyes will see a way to incorporate this into your build in a different way.

OR
2. Go to a kitchen designer.


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RE: Kitchen Island Clearance Dimensions-Continued

Jeff, I mean this in the nicest possible way: I just don't like it. It's an odd size, and the bullet-island is strange. No matter how many times you keep moving things, the pieces don't function properly. Something's off in the basics, but I can't say exactly what.

Worse, I have the feeling that you're not sold on the design either. Instead, it seems that you're sorta-kinda satisfied with this, given the constraints of your space.

This shouldn't be true. You're going to the trouble of building a house, and it should be exactly what you want (in most ways -- you'll never get 100%).

Two suggestions:

1. Toss everything and draw an ideal kitchen. The kitchen you'd design if you weren't working around these specific dimensions. That is, let go of the "but I must have this item". Let us see your ideal kitchen, and perhaps a fresh set of eyes will see a way to incorporate this into your build in a different way.

OR
2. Go to a kitchen designer.


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RE: Kitchen Island Clearance Dimensions-Continued

@Angela,

Yes. If I am correct, you like plan 13H3 better. And you also prefer a microwave over the oven. At this point, I am considering two layouts 13H3 and 18A. Still need to debate the pros and cons of each to see if I can settle on a ‘final’ design.

@Lavender Lass,

My latest plans (ver17 and ver18) are based on your T-shaped island concept, which has the long side of the island parallel to the right side wall. I am looking at it (18A) along with a previous plan of 13H3.

Thank you for your latest two drawings. They are similar to ver13H3 to some degree. I see the main differences being the swapped sink/cooktop, HVAC/pantry locations and larger kitchen window. I would explain my thoughts on them below.

@Mrs Pete,

Thank you for your continued input. I really appreciate that. You are absolutely right that I am not settled on the kitchen layout yet. There are things that I don’t like or am simply unsure about. On the other hand, I think I am making good progress (from the original two island version) and really hope that either plan might just work OK.

Re: HVAC and Cooktop Placement
When I met with the architect, he said he preferred to have the HVAC closet in a more centralized location of the house for easier ducting work. I may ask the architect again about this issue but right now I am inclined to leave the HVAC and pantry as they are currently in the plans (pantry close to wall).

Similarly, the cooktop close to the top wall may still be doable but that would make the exhaust vent of the range hood more difficult as there is second floor above it (vs cooktop close to side wall ). I am keeping the cooktop / sink locations for now. I would follow up one more time with the architect.

Re: Kitchen Windows
It is a corner lot with front and west facing streets in the subdivision. The side wall is facing west and we are building in Texas. I don’t think there is any good view to the outside and I have some great concern about summer heat. Therefore, the windows are mainly for natural lighting. The architect proposed to place some small windows over the high cabinets. I really don’t know how that would work and my drawings (with the size and location of the windows) are mainly my best guess.

Re: Start over or KD
While I am open to the suggestions of starting it over or giving it to a KD, I am not taking that route for reasons including 1) I still like to work with the architect on the overall house design to make it work after I have received some criticisms about the exteriors/roofs and cost. So I am trying to let the floor plan (including kitchen layout) to help the architect a little bit if possible for a functional, pleasing, and cost effective build. 2) The kitchen is one of the most critical parts of the house design but it is still one part of the whole house. If the only thing unresolved is kitchen layout and a KD might be good for me. But I don’t think I am there yet.
For some reason, I feel comfortable with floor plans/kitchen layouts reading thanks to many ppl on the GW forums ond my own struggles with the issues for over 5 months. If I decide on a final plan, I think it would not be too bad functionally.

Next, I would like to come up with one candidate kitchen plan and integrate it to the whole house floor plans and present it to the architect with my concerns about exteriors and budget.
Thanks! JF


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RE: Kitchen Island Clearance Dimensions-Continued

I realize this is an old thread, but.....

Any update Jeff? I was thinking about your house and kitchen and wondering if you have made any progress with your plans?

Carol


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RE: Kitchen Island Clearance Dimensions-Continued

Carol,

Thanks for asking. Yes. After over a year of planning, finally I can see some real progress with our build as we are 2 weeks into framing.

We need to make a lot of decisions soon. I definitely need to revisit about my lighting plans in kitchen and other areas.

At this moment, I am trying to figure out how to do the ceiling designs. I am not sure if I need some furring down ceiling over the island or leave the area with flat ceiling of 9ft. The great room with have step ceiling from 10ft to 11' 6". The breakfast areas has a 6" round drop.

Same question for possible ceiling over stairway. Shall I leave the 9ft ceiling fat over stairway and 2nd floor hallway or have some higher ceiling over the stair opening.

Thanks!

 photo IMG_1792_zps4fce70d7.jpg


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RE: Kitchen Island Clearance Dimensions-Continued

Fantastic Jeff!! Are you going to post your progress on the monthly "how is your build progressing" thread on the building a new home forum? The posters there are good people and might be able to respond to a few questions as they are going through similar decision making as you will be.

I am not sure about the ceilings. It is more complex with lighting if you go for sloped ceilings, so flat ceilings can keep things simpler. But, what do I know.

So excited for you and the family to see the build start!!

Carol


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