Regardless of where you are prepping, getting to the fridge seems to be a bit of a trek and so suggest exchanging it with the double ovens which you probably use less. With the fridge you could just do a 24" pantry beside it in the other location..

Does it matter where the DR opening goes along that wall and it's dimensions?

For me, there doesn't seem to be much lower drawer space for pots, pans, mixing bowls, baking bowls, small appliances etc. Or perhaps the pantries will house some of this stuff.

Are the shelving units in the island necessary? Does the warmer drawer have to go there or does it get used alot? Just seems to be using valuable kitchen drawer space. Can the warmer drawer be moved to the pantry/appliance wall?

I might move the prep sink to the other end of the island. If you are prepping on the island and then carrying to the stove you are having then to carry over the sink and walk abit further. With the prep sink at the other end it lets people wash hands, get water etc easier from the table or the outside.

If you also have pantry in the laundry room I would make the microwave not in a pantry but in a unit with counter space. You can then have a landing spot for the ovens (if you move them or the fridge if you don't move it) and a spot for stirring the microwave stuff.

You have 40" of aisle space noted - is that cabinets to cabinets or counter to counter. Counter over hangs are anywhere from 1" to 1 1/2" (x 2) and so you could be losing 2-3" of aisle space depending on how you have stated your measurements.

Also meant to mention that the pull-out trash should be where ever you are doing your prep work. have you decided where that will be?

you've made a lot of good changes.
why not a regular depth fridge?
there is no gain in a counter depth fridge there.
in fact, you lose.

the beach sink is good.
what is the little hole in the counter next to it?
wherever you put the beach is OK because the island is small.

turn the kitchen table 90 degrees and butt it to the island.
round the corner of the island where it overhangs; this increases the 43" pinch point to some larger dimension like 49".

Yeah! I was excited to log in and see responses--GW didn't email me the notice although I thought I checked that box.

I'm posting some front views so you can see more where things are and it has notes about what the planned storage is. Don't pay too much attention to colors, hardware, etc. --the cabinets will probably be BM linen white and the island a dark, dark gray (but the details didn't show up on dark gray) It's not baby blue ;-) I did it to scale in Illustrator but unfortunately, there is no "3D" view.

Fridge/Oven Wall

Range Wall:

Sink Wall:

Island:

Scootermom--you don't have to be a guru ;-) I bet your little one is a cutie--my best friend called mine "Baby Duck" because he had the blondest, finest hair that stuck straight up on top of his head until he was at least three years old. On the fridge, I thought it was supposed to be easily accessible to the table as well, so that's why I thought it should be over there. The ovens to me are further out of the loop. I'll think about switching it.

On the warming drawer, I'm not sure what to do with it. The reason I didn't put it under the range is that it is a 30" drawer and that is 36" stack, so I would be wasting a really big drawer there. The thought was that it is handy to where I would serve plates from or a make a buffet on the island. We don't have to have it (I have a double oven I could always use one set on warm), but I already own it. Guess I could sell it on craiglist if a better use for that space comes up. The micro is a built-in model with a pull down door.

Bflelton--I can make the door opening to the DR anywhere or size. It will be a new wall. I plan to prep mostly on the island. We'll have knives, cutting boards, compost bin all right there. I figured the fridge was easy access. If we are multiple cooks, the prep person can be on the fridge side of the island away from the clean up or cooking. If it's just me, I might be on the cleanup sink side.

For storage, there are two pot drawers and one pot cabinet by the range. If I move the prep sink to far side, then I don't have the seating there. The seating is mostly for socializing with the cook, we would eat at the table.

Davidro1--I thought I should use a countertop fridge because I'm so worried about isle clearance--seems like a lot of kitchens here have much wider isles and with seating there, I felt like it might be tight. We have a basement fridge that we keep extra drinks and for when we have lots of prepped food for a party. We have a chest freezer in the laundry room by the kitchen. So I'm not as worried about the fridge space. The hole by the beach sink was the faucet spacing--not a very tiny in-counter composter ;-)

I'm confused about your table suggestion. If we butt it up to the island, I have an obstacle to get out the french doors to the deck--that's why I don't like my peninsula now. I had actually thought about a longer island with some kind of attached seating that jutted into the eating area, but then I worry that would be a barrier to the outdoors and to the back stairs (up to my office and the kids computer so it's a frequently traveled path by all).

Thanks for the input. Please keep it coming.

Susan

Consider flipping the pull-out pantry's and ovens with frig and micro/pantry. The oven is going to be used far less than the frig. I noticed you moved the DW to the opposite side of the sink. Are you left or right handed? My kitchen designer did this to me 10 years ago and I about flipped when I did a walk-thru of the virtual kitchen. I am right handed and want to go from sink to DW on the right. When I unload, I am on the other side of the DW and use my right hand to put dishes in the cabinet above the DW.

As far as the warming drawer - KEEP IT!!! You have little ones that soon become big ones with lots of activities that keep the family from eating at the same time. Consider placing it below the ovens and moving the drawer to the island. Plus, they would be closer to the prep/washing area.

I am certainly not a kitchen guru, but I look for how it functions for me.

I really don't like the lack of counter space near the micro and the ovens. When hot food is coming out of those appliances, there is no convenient "landing zone".

So nice to see similar layouts. I also had trouble placing the fridge. Right now, our fridge is across the main walk-thru isle and I hate it. It's a constant bottle neck. (I've got teenagers. They would live IN the frig is they could). I'm moving it up to where your stove is now. Nice job. Can't wait to see more! Keep up the great work. What is your design program or are these sketches from KD?

The biggest issue I see is that there is no convenient landing spot for things coming out of the fridge or microwave. The most convenient place to set things down, as you have it now, is the island BUT you have stools there and potentially people sitting in those stools. I doubt they'll like it if you drip something over them in a hurry to get it to the closest landing spot. Stools in that location, especially with the fridge & micro behind them and no other landing counter, will become an irritant. I would move the stools to the table side of the kitchen, but that still doesn't completely solve your lack of adequate landing space. Where will you set bags of groceries to be put away? In the current set up you'll be constantly reaching over and around those stools and the people sitting in them.

I suppose you could use the end of the counter next to your cooktop for things coming out of the oven, but that's not ideal either since you're crossing a doorway with potential traffic coming through at the same moment you have to quickly set down a hot item.

Your wall with the fridge, micro & ovens looks pretty, but I would rethink your landing spaces and prep spaces.

Thanks for the input so far.

SWAPPING FRIDGE
Seems to be a consensus that ya'll don't like the fridge placement ;-) I guess I put it there because it's closer to the table (for drinks, condiments, etc.) and it's near where we have it now and I am a creature of habit.

What about this? There are notes on drawing about paths and clearance issues.

And here is the "wall view" of that plan

I tried rounding off the island to see if that makes that one tight corner better. But if I did that, then I felt like that left seating for only one and I wanted seating for 2. So I tried dropping my little shelf for cutting boards on the right. I can put cutting boards on the prep sink pullout (maybe in front of the knife block). The Beach sink needs a 30" cab so that is the reason for the discrepancy in overhang sizes--20" and 14".

Motherof3sons--I am right handed. The DW has been backwards for 10 years;-) I think this side will work better, plus it gets it out of that corner. I think I'll move WD under the ovens. Its not the most convenient spot, but I have it, so why not use it.

Janet and my2sons--Do you have suggestions on landing space? I had intended for the island or the spot by the range to be the landing space. The above shows more of a desk config for the microwave, so it would now have a small counter space below the micro. I get your point about dripping hot stuff from the oven on guests--wouldn't be a very good hostess ;-) For the fridge now, I actually put groceries on the table and or peninsula and load the fridge from there. It would be much further from the table here.

I had the sitting space at the end of the island by the table before in one of my many versions. I'll have to go back and find that drawing and post that layout in a bit.

DJAinVA--I don't have kitchen designer. Just ya'll and me. The drawings are in Adobe Illustrator. I'm a graphic designer so I know that program really well. It's to scale 1 mm = 1 inch. I tried to do this in Ikea's online program, but it looked so different from what I think it will eventually look like (with feet and the paint colors, etc,) that I didn't find it too useful.

Is there a totally different way of laying this out? Maybe I'm too close to it to see anything out of the box.

Just thinking out loud here... what if you move your clean up sink & DW to the island and put your prep sink under the window? Then you could move your fridge to where you have your dish storage & DW. It would be closer to the table and easily accessible from your prep space. You'd have to be careful not to have your fridge and DW opening into each other though.

Another option... what if you make the entrance to your DR as far to the left as possible? Then you could move the fridge to where you currently have the DR opening, but I wouldn't move the fridge any further left on that wall because then your island and stools become a barrier.

Ooh My2sons--interesting idea! Then the prep area becomes that corner between prep sink and range which is where I actually do it now if I am cooking on my own (with my stupid microwave in the corner in the way ;-)

But, where would I put dishes and glasses and things for convenient storage if the DW and main sink are on the island? I think you mean putting the sink and DW on that side facing the prep sink?

I'll try that layout and post it in a bit. If you see this, please let me know what you think about dish and glass storage. I guess glass cabs can stay where they are.

On moving DR door, did you mean move the entrance to the far left where the seating is now? Only thing is that then, there is sort of a circle to the front door now and then you would have to navigate the whole DR table which will now be 2' more narrow ;-)

Anyone else have totally different layout idea?

THANKS
Susan

Just a word on fridge placement.

My old kitchen was a galley attached to a large eating area. One of the things KD insisted on was keeping the fridge in the galley so i had a work triangle.

But, as you have said, while a fridge is good close to the prep area, you also want it close to the eating area, the table.

I went against the KD advice and put my fridge near the table.(see below) As a compromise, I also added fridge drawers directly across from my range. The drawers were for the types of food you would take out for prep time ... ie uncooked meats, fruits, and veggies.

This worked well for us.

{{gwi:1748922}}

logansmum, you'll get a lot a conflicting opinions.

Here's mine: I think you were on the right track with your RF by the table and the oven on the range side. I know I want my RF where it's easy access to the table, and I want my oven near the range for easy transfer between the two. Moving the prep sink to the table end and turning it 90 degrees makes better sense to me as it frees up the prep zone for transferring to and from the range, provides a larger work zone on the side I'd use it and is a good spot for quick access from the table.

If you wouldn't mind giving up the pull-out pantry next to the DR opening, that would allow a small landing spot for both DR items and hot from the oven pans until you transfer the hot stuff to the larger working space. I also think having the counters on both side of the DR passage will feel better.

I'd put my trash on the end next to the dw for ease of use since I scrape into the trash before loading the DW when I use it. Also looks like the logical spot for carrying out the trash. Good luck!

"...there is no gain in a counter depth fridge..."

There is a gain here...there's seating at the counter and a deeper refrigerator will impact the person sitting on the left. [Previous design]

As to that "counter-depth" refrigerator, unless it's a "true" counter-depth (like Liebherr has, for example), it will stick out approx 6" more inches into the aisle than you show. The vast majority of CD refrigerators are only "counter-depth" with regards to the refrigerator carcass/box. The doors and handles stick out approx 6" beyond the cabinets themselves for a total depth of the refrigerator of 30" (exact distances vary from manufacturer to manufacturer...sometimes it's a little over 31"). Note that you also need to count the amount of space needed behind the refrigerator for (1) plug, (2) water line (if needed), (3) anti-tip device, and (4) "air" clearance. For a CD, that usually only means about an inch more (or less). For standard-depth, it may mean 2 or 3 inches more.

Aisles...are all your aisles measured counter edge-to-counter edge? It looks like some are (island) but others are not (perimeter cabinets/counters). Keep in mind that counters extend past the cabinets approx 1.5". If the aisle b/w the island and sink run does not include the counter overhangs on the sink run, then your aisle is really 40" - 1.5" = 38.5" (it appears you are including the overhang on the island).

Also, with seating behind the island, keep in mind that the aisle will be very busy...it's the main path from the garage to the rest of the house (DR, FR, etc.). For busy aisles with seating and appliances/counters/pantries on that aisle, you really need closer to 60" of space. Moving the refrigerator helps a little, but not that much.

Switching Refrigerator & Ovens...The new location of the refrigerator will eliminate the issue of interfering with the seating. It also gets the ovens out of the direct path to the FR and protects them a bit b/c of the short wall on the left.

Dish Storage...While dish storage is traditionally in upper cabinets, many people here have found that drawers work very well for these items as well.

If you put the Cleanup Zone in the island, keep in mind that it will mean dirty dishes "in the face" of anyone sitting at the island. It also severely cuts down on the wonderful expanse of workspace an island gives you. I recommend, though, keeping the DW as far from the Prep & Cooking Zones as possible...so put the DW on the left, not the right. Also, if you must have seating on the island, don't reduce the overhang to anything less than 18"...you don't want water splashing onto people sitting at the island...usually only a real issue when it's a cleanup sink on the island, not prep sink.

+++++++

I was going to work on a layout for you during my on & off "down" time at work, but since you're making changes continually right now, I think I'll hold off...even my comments are becoming "out dated". Just keep the comments in mind when you play around with the layout.

Good luck!

As others have said, many people now prefer dish storage in drawers rather than upper cabinets. As for the DR entrance, it was not clear what the path is on the other side of the DR. You have moved the DR entrance to the center of the DR so you will have to go around the table one way or the other to get to the other side of the DR. Maybe it would be best to keep it where it is, or move it as far to the right as you can? I'm trying to help move your fridge closer to your eating area, but I wouldn't move it past the green vertical dotted line you show above if you're going to keep it on that top wall.

Putting your prep sink on the other side of the island and turning it is an interesting idea. You could keep your seating that way, and have more landing and prep space on your island.

MOVING THE SINK & DW TO ISLAND.

Neat, out of the box idea, but I can't make it work. Love that it puts the fridge convenient to the table and prep. But it puts clean up on the island (and all that associated mess) in a space that isn't that big and it puts my back to the rest of the kitchen if I am prepping in the corner like I do now. And the asymmetry of the cabinets would probably drive me crazy.

Abundant, I'm finding myself going back to that idea actually. I think about how we get things in and out of the fridge at dinner time direct to the table and I hate to put that on the other side of the kitchen. On my latest incarnation of the layout below, I did make the micro/desk area by the wall and the fridge is further from seating area.

Moved the seating area to the end of the island. I had it there on all my first drawings and then I moved it hoping to get room for two chairs. Latest version of the island is 40 x 72. I may just stick one larger chair there or two small ones. I know my kids will fight over if it's just one ;-) I didn't intend for it to be an eating space at all--it's more of a perch to keep the cook company, have a glass of wine, be more at eye level than sitting at the table.

Buehl, please don't let my flightiness scare you away ;-) Would love your opinion and suggested changes to the layout. Please consider this last layout below. I do think this flows good for our usage.

On the measurements, I added just 1" overhang to island and countertops (it shows as a dash line on the island but not on the countertops) So any marked isle widths take into account 1" overhang. And I did make the "counterdepth" fridge show deeper because you are right, the doors and handles will add to the space.

On the Double Ovens, I feel like there is a sufficient landing space opposite on that counter by the range. I thought about making one of he pullouts a "desk like" space similar to what I did with the micro, but that would need to be wider and it would hold less than the 15" pullout that is there. Maybe I don't bake that much to see it as a problem. I know it's a traffic area, but I would be standing in the doorway where anyone would come through.

LATEST FLOORPLAN WITH ISLAND SEATING FACING TABLE

logansmum, you'll get a lot a conflicting opinions. I wonder why the need for both a kitchen table and "overhang" seating. Sure, it's good to have... but maybe not.

It's a series of tradeoffs. You now have the fridge occupying more footprint. This is good. It shows what will happen in real life.

My turning the table 90 degrees was a tradeoff. It gives you some things and takes away some other things. Butting it to the island gives you more "counter" continuity from the island counter to the table surface. More space management continuity. And it brings those seated at the island and those seated at the table together. Yes, I know the two surfaces are not at the same height. It gives everyone a clear main path to the French doors and back stairs, which is larger and wider than the three paths they now have in the floorplans you have posted above. You lose one of the three ways to get to the French doors and back stairs.

another idea:

since you have written that you would like the fridge to be close, and that you are concerned about the space it will take in the high traffic passage, consider this:
put it where you have "dishes" now.
put the Beach prep sink in that counter run.
in the island, put the cleanup stuff (DW and sink) and some drawers for dishes.
the wall where the fridge is can now be a display case for glassware, fine china, bowls, artwork.

davidro1--I tried moving the fridge to where the dish cabinet is and the prep sink to under the window--I spent some time on Friday playing with that layout and I can't make it work for me. What I don't like is that--as Buehl pointed out--it puts all my cleanup mess in the center of the kitchen and in the face of my guests if I have island seating. And if I prep at the counter where my sink is now, I'll have my back to the rest of the kitchen--either island seating or table seating. And the reason for the island and a small overhang was social. To be able to to have someone sit there and talk while I am doing prep work. So I feel pretty sure i want the prep on the island. But it was a good solution for the fridge ;-)

I really do appreciate everyone who took time to post and offer up suggestions. Thinking through those suggestions has helped my solidify some things in my own mind about why I came up with that layout initially.

Right now, I'm liking the last plan I posted. I do want the fridge closer to the table and the ovens over by the rangetop, but I did move the fridge over and put a landing spot for the micro underneath it. Moving the seating to the table side, makes less traffic in that main path from garage to FR and leaves that island side open as a landing for groceries to the fridge and the pullout pantries. And I moved the warming oven over under the DO and off the island so maybe that will free up some prime storage space as Scootermom pointed out earlier.

If anyone has thoughts about the last layout, would still appreciate your insight.

Thanks! Susan

On the Double Ovens, I feel like there is a sufficient landing space opposite on that counter by the range.

Sufficient landing space for what? If you are baking cookies and have sheet(s) of cookies coming out and some going in, then 18 inches is not enough. Ditto if it's Thanksgiving dinner and you have both ovens going. You need some sort of back-up plan for when that 18 inches is not enough.

I know it's a traffic area, but I would be standing in the doorway where anyone would come through.

This is what makes it potentially dangerous.

Curious as to why the change to a centered wider opening between kitch and formal dining? Your dining room appears to be done nicely, formal, and this entry has a visual line directly to both sink areas/kind of like "Grand Central" in kitchen. I'd leave the tone and decor of the dining room apart from your busy looking kitchen: prefer that smaller original opening off to the side..

What if I moved the pantries to flank the fridge and the drawer stack with the micro cab above by the oven? THen that would be a 30" surface directly by the oven.

Does anyone have this combo--a fridge surrounded by pantry pullout cabinets? Love? Hate? Would you do it again?

LAYOUT WITH OVEN LANDING SPACE

FRONT VIEW OF THAT WALL

Herbflavor--the DR is going to be a little less formal and the kitchen is going to be more formal--so there will be less contrast between the two. The wallpaper has to be replaced (even though I love it) because we are moving the wall forward 2 feet. I don't think I would ever be able to match the die lot on that one. I'm keeping an eye out for some cool doors (maybe off a tall armoire if I can get a good price) with the idea of hanging them in the dining room on barn-door type hangers so it can slide closed if the kitchen is a mess while we are eating. The furniture is changing--I've inherited a gorgeous buffet with shelves on top (I think it's called a vaisselvier) that is going in the dining room and I'm selling the 1940s mahogany set that is small and not too comfortable. I'm getting a french oak table and more comfortable chairs.

Thanks,
Susan

I would get firm and complete estimates on removing the load-bearing wall before making any plans or purchases that depend on that. We changed our kitchen plan because it turned out removing the kitch/DR wall, which is only about 7 feet long, would cost $10,000. It would've been $2-$3,000 less if we didn't sink the support beam into the ceiling (in other words, if we just put the beam below the ceiling and surrounded it with drywall so it looked like a soffit), but still, that's $7k-$8k just to remove a wall. And I'm told by those in the know that that's a totally normal price.

When I saw "complete" estimates, I mean get an estimate that includes all the following:
(1) Hiring a structural engineer to evaluate what will need to be done to support your upper floor and roof (this may be a service the contractor provides or one you pay for separately, and it will be a few hundred bucks, but DO NOT skimp on this, and make sure the person doing it is an actual registered structural engineer);
(2) Prepping the space (most important part: building the structure, usually wood, that will support your upper floor while they remove the existing wall);
(3) Removing the wall;
(4) Rerouting any electrical, plumbing or HVAC that may run through the load-bearing wall (including the cost of any new materials that may need to be bought, such as new plumbing, and of course the cost of cutting into whatever adjacent wall the stuff will now be run through);
(5) Finishing the surfaces (e.g., drywall and paint over the beam if you're doing the soffit kind, or patching/painting the ceiling if you're not; also, patching/painting any walls that HVAC/plumbing/electrical had to be rerouted through; also, fixing the floor where the wall was, if that part of the floor will be exposed in the new layout); and of course,
(6) The cost of any materials needed (the most obvious materials cost is going to be the new support beam and any related structures that go with it... some of which may need to be in your basement, depending how your house is built).

logansmum i think herbflavor is on to something. No matter which of the two sinks go here or there, the limited views we have of your DR show us that peopple in the DR have direct views onto both sinks, messes, and drains. Yuk.

There is no way to know how much reworking is the right amount of work, with this plan. If I asked you for a whole house plan and you posted it, later on somebody might write that this was a bad move, a can of worms.

Prepping at the wall counter means that if there are people in the kitchen with you, they are on your RHS not behind you.

Putting a cleanup sink in the island is not a disadvantage if you turn it into an advantage. There are many ways I could write it all out; entire paragraphs about cleanup, DW, and dish storage in the island.

Your fridge is in a passageway. Taking anything out of the fridge forces you to cross that passageway. Traffic comes to a stop.

Your fridge is in a passageway. Taking anything out of the fridge forces you to cross that passageway. Traffic comes to a stop.

My fridge is in a passageway, too. I like that the kids can grab a drink or snack (from the fridge or adjacent pantry, and there are glasses on that wall, too) and not come into my cooking zone. Better "traffic comes to a stop" than "cooking comes to a stop." (Then and again, my kitchen is smaller than this one, so something was going to be in that passageway.)

The main reason I don't like the ovens in the passageway is safety, but stuff in the fridge is cold.

On the other hand, now that we're looking at that passageway more closely... There is a prep zone in the passageway, too. I wouldn't want the kids coming behind me to grab snacks while I was chopping with a sharp knife. But, it looks like your primary prep space would be in the hall, since getting from the fridge to the work zone between the other sink and the cooktop is a pain.

i see the island landing pad and prep space as small.
(and I have a tiny kitchen).
Where are knives, utensils and the cutlery drawer?
i see the workflow from fridge to prep space as impractical.
i predict i would end up buying only snacks if i had this kitchen.

now is the time to consider alternatives.
once you commit to building something it is too late to change the plan.

So far i think i haven't seen any consideration given to layouts that are farther out of the box.
The posted layouts get tweaked a tiny bit.
To suit this household's needs and the house itself, a different set of assumptions may be good to think about.

so far, in all discussion it seems the hood and sink remain where they are.
But i think the fridge is the problem.
That is what i think.
So, i think it is useful to idealize a fridge-to-prep-to-cleanup workflow.
After idealizing, a mapping onto reality is the next step.

i read "We have friends over often for dinner--want space to interact with them while we cook. Biggest thing is we want a better workflow..."

This reminds me of johnliu's kitchen layout challenge.

Get workflow to be right and storage falls into place.

Could you move the RF to the end of the window wall, landing space, range under sink, counter return, dw, sink, trash? Switch the DO and micro in your last so the ledge is at the entrance and to get the open oven doors away from it.

Put a small prep sink where you show shelf on the island. If the island 30" drawers are for dishes, you may want to orient them differently, but they're located in a perfect spot for pots and pans and food storage containers if the range is under the sink.

As davidro suggests, insert buffet hutch between the pull-out pantries.

Totally agree with Davidro1 -- think about the workflow--this kitchen is not very usable. You have so many doorways to deal with, too; that makes things tougher.

This design is also constrained by trying to fit in all those appliances. I think you should consider Ideagirl2's suggestion to get a detailed bid on moving that wall. It may be that the cost of moving a load-bearing wall outstrips the savings on those bargain appliances. In which case, re-selling them on craigslist and starting over with fewer pieces of hardware might not be a bad idea, either.

Forgot about the family room entrance, so I'd swap the hutch/former RF with the DOs. Also that makes more sense with the island as a landing for hot items. Since you like symmetry, would you consider the pantries flanking either end of the DR entrance? The prep sink is a problem space wise on the island so maybe it could go under the micro and have a coffeepot next to it, though I know that's not as helpful if you use it for veg cleaning.

You might want to consider designing an idealized kitchen inside the existing walls. This saves you an astronomical amount of money and hassle. I don't see how the DR is improved by shrinking it.

Design as if the kitchen table and the hutch were to disappear. They are not practical to keep in mind when designing. In real life, they might not be practical also. The hutch doesn't hold a lot. I saw it in your OP photos. The kitchen table and chairs might be too large for this space once you get your workflow and traffic flow designed. Considering how much is being budgeted, it's nothing to presume in your design phase that you will toss the hutch and table.

Consider the exhaust hood could go anywhere. Consider the sink will be replaced by two or three separate sinks. One medium (24"-27"), one prep size Beach with its two drains. And maybe one puny like a GD / garbage chute. Layout and workflow come first, so none of the sinks will be symmetricized under the window.

Along these lines, here are new ideas.
One idea is to have the island be an L shape, one narrow counter and one wide counter replacing the current table.
A 2nd idea is to have the fridge be freestanding in the middle of the kitchen and flanked by pillars (see raro's unusual floorplan), Roughly where the "h" is in the phrase "eat-in dining with table" in your first post opening this thread.
A 3rd idea is to combine the 1st and 2nd ideas, so your fridge occupies the corner spot in a raro-inspired extended-L shape.

With an L, people have only two paths from the front (DR/hall/LR/stairs) to the back (garage/patio/back stairs). Only two paths is a lot more than only one path. It's a lot of path options.

Here is a link that might be useful: layout of unconventional kitchen - raro

David and Abundant--thanks for the input. I appreciate that you are taking the time to think about this. I'm going to post a blank layout with 1 foot grids and all the current doors, windows and dimensions--I'm rechecking all my measurements now because I was off on the eat-in space. Maybe that will help everyone see the space without preconceived notions (which I know I have ;-) Do you think I should start a new thread or keep posting here?

Susan

I will finalize the quotes on moving the wall first (thanks Ideagirl for heads up on all to look for). I've talked to one guy who does a lot of work in our n'hood and I have a couple of other contractors coming in this week.

David suggested looking at keeping the original footprint--and thinking outside the box to make the layout flow. I don't think the range can go anywhere else but the south wall. I don't want it on the west wall under a window--sorry AbundantBlessings--(and I don't want to get rid of the only window in the kitchen) and it can't go on the east wall because that puts the cooktop in the traffic path--the one thing I know I want in a protected space. David's idea of a "fridge hutch" is interesting, but then whats behind it? The table? Can't get into the fridge for ketchup from the table without walking around that barrier?

Here is a blank layout of the original footprint. The blue grids are 1 foot square. Anyone want to take a stab at a totally different layout?

My husband likes the original layout that I came up with (with some tweaks suggested by ya'll). I'm loosing sleep and getting really stressed about the whole thing and we haven't even started ;-)

BLANK LAYOUT

Susan

Can you shade the squares we need to leave open for door swing? Not sure which doors swing in and which swing out.

putting numbers and letters on rows and columns:
A to M on the south wall and continuing with N and O in the opening to the patio doors.
1 to 22 from the garage door over to the south wall.

Thus
A1 is in the laundry/pantry; C1 is the garage door.
A22 is the SouthEast corner.
M22 is the SouthWest corner, the darkest corner.
M1 is the back stairs; N1 is the exterior wall and O1 is outdoors.

Consider two counters, galley-style.
The counters are bounded by
K22, M22, M5, K5.
E22, G22, E5, G5.
A big fridge goes at H5, K5, K8, H8. Boxed in "a la Raro" style.
This leaves a corridor inside the galley: approx 42"wide,
bounded approximately by H22, J-K22, J-K9, H9.
Connecting the dots, you will see there is a long walk around this galley to get to the patio
and that there is no opening into this galley.
So, openings have to be cut.
You can do this freehand from here.

The main passageway for all the through traffic is Outside the galley.
The space you have drawn has many doors, stairs, openings.
You need a clear wheelchair width corridor,
so well delineated that it keeps guests and busybodies outside the Work areas.
But they are still in the kitchen and "part of the action".

A drawback is the perceived extra distance to the patio.
But, it is not a big extra distance. Measure it.
And besides, someone can slip through the kitchen.
(you will have two openings into this galley).

The fridge back has to be gussied up, so see raro's thread.
The corners /turns can be 45 degrees or rounded.

I can't post photos because my cell phone makes "tif." files.
I don't open drawing software.

Hth.

Janet, I think the stairs door is outswing and the garage door is currently inswing. Not sure about the laundry, but perhaps if it's inswing, both it and the garage door can be made to outswing.

Susan, any problems with making all doors outswing? Glad you're willing to consider having this looked at as a clean slate. Much better to agonize a bit now getting it the way you want than spend the money and discover it doesn't get you where you want to be. Just breathe deeply, think of it as a big puzzle to work out and try to enjoy the process.

It's certainly easier and cheaper to get new kitchen furniture than to move walls. You may enjoy having the larger DR as the years pass, and in the event you want to sell, having a decent sized DR may be a plus. I'm sure the gurus will give you lots to mull over, and all else fails, you can always go back to your original plan. Hang in there!

Logansmum- I think you have a beautiful plan, but I do have concerns about the load bearing wall. It can be so expensive, it might be nice to have a 'plan B' just in case :)

How about something like this? Maybe the fridge and pantry on the back wall (against the dining room wall) with a second sink and undercounter microwave. It would make a great snack center...or you could take out the pantry and have an oven/microwave/warming drawer combination.

I like your range against the south wall and the sink under the window. The big difference is it would be tight with the island, so what about a smaller work table (maybe with a marble or wood top) that you can move around, when you need more space. If you like, you might tuck a stool or two underneath. It will give you more flexibilty, than a standard island...and might be a good back up, to the much larger kitchen island, in Plan A.

Here's a link to a lovely kitchen, just posted the other day, with a very nice marble work table. (Sorry about the crayon, but it's the only way my scanner will read the plan, sometimes!) Best of luck with your estimates and the remodel, in general :)

{{gwi:1939008}}

Here is a link that might be useful: Marble work table in lovely kitchen

Davidro1--you magnificent b#$ST*d. I thought I hated this idea. Thinking about it like Raro's kitchen--which I think is gorgeous when I saw in in another thread--but that it's too modern and my style is totally traditional. However, I kept messing with it and something clicked. I think this might work. Let me know what you think. I'm trying to leave original DR wall there, but I think if I recess the DO and pantries into each end and put the opening in the middle--they should be able to just reinforce studs on the existing wall to handle the load (like when people do columns). I'll get an engineer to check it first of course. SInce I was going to take a whole 2 feet out of the DR anyway, I think this is OK to steal these corners from that space. I have to have some pantry storage and I need to put those DO's somewhere. SORRY Janet. No handy landing space.

Concerns--I'm not sure I have enough storage. Its only 2 upper cabs now. With this super long L, I've cut off easy access from the center of the kitchen to either the laundry room or the garage. However, the path straight through seems OK. I'll have to mock this up somehow. The DO are in Eqypt. But to me, they were the least important appliance to me for accessibility.

My current table has a pretty sort of ogee shape--I'll post photos of it soon. I think I would straight cut that edge and let it butt directly into the 36" drawer stack, but it wouldn't be affixed. So we can remove or add the extension that is there. I would paint the table legs and skirt the same color as the island and refinish the wood top.

LavendarLass. Love the crayon ;-) Thank you so much for taking the time to draw that out. I was thinking similarly if we had to keep the wall. Let me know what you think of this.

Abundant and Janet--thanks for continueing to contribute. To answer the earlier question, the only doors that swing into the space is the garage and the french door closest to the back stairs (the other opens if needed, but we usually just use the one). I can't change either one of those. There are half swing doors on the DR entry now, but i plan to not use them in the new kitchen. The FR entry is just an opening and the Laundry Room doors swing in. Plus I am probably moving that door over toward the garage a foot or two. I want to make the laundry room flow better too ;-)

Inspiration for the island overhang. Have had this photo for a while. And now with all the wall space, I can go crazy with the tile too.

Latest floor plan

Island and East wall

South and West Walls:

It's 3:30 am and I have to got to go to sleep now. Tomorrow I really need to do paying work and stop obsessing with this. If anyone has a question, please email me to look at the thread. The notices thing isn't emailing me. Plus I haven't shown it to DH (who is sleeping) and he may hate it.

THANKS!
Susan (or maybe this just sucks and it looks good to me from the sleep deprivation ;-)

Your recessed ovens and pantry pullout will cause a sensation whenever anyone visits and begins looking around. If you put your home up for resale you will have lots of offers. These magnificent cubbyholes are huge. Hidden gems. Well thought out!

From B3 to A8 you can slice off a long triangle from the laundry room if you wanted to; it wouldn't hurt the style of the house.

The brown rectangle (table?) can be made gray, which then puts it at the 34.5" height of the adjacent counter and that then continues the countertop surface thereby making it more useful to a high degree. (After they renovate, people often post to rave about now having large expanses of nonstop countertop; no-one ever posts about loving a multi-level surface.) This change gives you a few more base cabinets for deep storage drawers so that solves that problem too.

Perhaps solve the storage issue with shallow 8" - 12" floor to whatever height your two uppers are cabinets, (maybe glass front?) flanking the DR opening. If you like the idea of storage there, you may not need to recess as far into the DR then as the pantry units and DO can be brought forward to match the shallow cabinets. You'll lose minimal kitchen floor space but will gain so much with additional storage.

Perhaps make sense of the projections into the DR by adding corner cabinetry or L shaped display units in the DR.

combining pantry pullout and recessed ovens at A8-A15 saves money and gives you a bit more storage. On the front of the pantry pullout could be installed a minor shelf helping you when you have to open the ovens to adjust things. A perch point.

neato inspiration for the island overhang.

I really like davidro1's idea of cutting a triangle off the laundry room so that corner doesn't stick out.

It looks like you lost both the microwave and the warming drawer? What about making the 36 inch drawer stack by the small sink a 30 inch stack so you have at least one reheating appliance. It will be handy to the fridge for reheating leftovers or appetizers prepared ahead of time for your party. Scoot the sink down 6 inches, then put in a 36 inch susan in the corner.

A corner pullout is much better than a blind corner base without a pullout, but the pullout mechanism itself does eat a lot of storage space. A susan or super susan will be a better use of corner storage space.

Your dish storage is a bit tight. You can fit enough for a family of four in the kitchen, and maybe put extra stuff in the new shallow storage by the garage door?

Build the cubbies before ordering cabinets there -- you may need them shorter to put them under the load-bearing beam.

Wow, that's quite a plan! I like the island, but I'm wondering...can you move the window or make it larger? The window in your 'island overhang' has a beautiful, big window that would look fantastic in your new kitchen.

I like Abundant's ideas for storage. The only concern is where are you going to put hot pans, coming out of the oven? If the boys like to bake, they'll need a landing spot nearby...at least that helps with my nephews :)

If you're willing to make adjustments on the DR wall, scoot the DO to the right and place a landing ledge to the left of the DO. If you do that, then another possibility is to steal a few inches if necessary from the laundry, and maybe you can put a micro above the ledge with cabinet below if you still want a micro. You can recess also into the laundry room if you want both appliances. Your warming drawer could go there but opening would interfere with the bottom oven unless you recess them sufficiently. (I had a warming drawer once but found I didn't really use it enough to justify including it in future kitchens. Now, my multi-task Breville TO serves that purpose nicely if I need, and IMO better and perhaps is more energy efficient than would be using the warming feature on my micro.)

Can't tell from your drawing what that left circle is on your prep sink, but I'd orient mine so that the faucet at the rear, not the side, to have prep access from both sides.

One practical consideration in favor of cabinets over shelving is keeping items free of dust and pet hair. I find this definitely appealing and function trumps form in this case since I don't like to dust daily, like fresh air when possible and find glass fronts satisfy my display needs while keeping things clean. If you really want the ability to grab some items off of shelves, you could install cabinets on the both sides of the return and reduce the length of the shelves. Yes, you'll have a blind corner upper, but I store seldom used bigger items in mine. I have the blind pull-out next to the DO on the RF/DO wall in the lower cabinet and a super installed on the sink peninsula, and find dis/advantages to both. Although this would not work in your kitchen, above the blind counter I have a deep appliance garage that Breville can live in when not in use. If the ledge next to the DO works for you, that may be a good spot for the appliance garage if you want one. I think if I had to choose, I'd go with the super.

Hi everyone. Had to take a break and see what ya'll thought. On the recessed DO and pantries, I wanted to spread out the interruptions to the wall (figure easier to reinforce wall and avoid having to add beams or footers) and then the "bump-ins" are symmetrical on the inside the dining room. There is only so much asymmetry I can take ;-) Abundant Blessings, love the idea of doing something on the DR wall by the bumps (maybe a cabinet--More storage for nice wineglasses, extra sets of dishes, etc.) I don't think I want to add storage on the kitchen side because I think I need that space behind the curved seating bar.

On the laundry wall and clipping the corner, I may move the laundry wall back a foot--I don't think it is loadbearing, but of course, I have to find that out (it's on a different plane than the DR wall). I'll play with that. I don't want to use too much space from laundry. It's small as it is. I eventually want to put the washer dryer on the second floor and use this space only as mudroom/extra pantry storage. But if I move walls, I want to do it now while the kitchen is being done.

Janet--doh! I forgot about the microwave. Maybe I can hang it from the ceiling? Man, those drawer micros are pricey. I'll have to think about placement on that one.

Lavendar Lass--the window can change--it's just time and money. That one in the photo is sure prettier than mine. It's odd--it's just a double pane of glass set out near the edge of the brick, so there is a big ledge that I like--I grow herbs there in the winter. The other side of the wall is brick. But there is room to make it bigger, so I have to figure out the cost and decide if it's worth it. I did get the number of a brickmason whom I think has reasonable rates. Maybe not as much as I think. And then the cost of the window. Have to look at that too--we've never replaced windows, so I'm sure what I am in for with that.

Sounds like we are quickly spending the money saved on not moving the wall ;-)

Do you all think this layout is better than my original idea of moving the wall? Do you see other potential problems?

I'll check in tonight. THANKS! Susan

If you extend the uppers at # L, you could house the micro in an upper return to the left of the prep sink if you're willing to forego the shelves. If not, some really like their micro in the pantry, and placing it there won't take too much away while it's still be used as a laundry.

Susan- I can't help you with the brick, but we got new windows recently and it was very reasonable. Definitely much cheaper than moving a load bearing wall :)

If you did move the window and make it more the size of your picture, maybe you could put upper cabinets between the fridge and window for glasses, etc. I like some storage above, just so it's easy to see and reach. If you don't need the cabinet, it could also be a spot for the microwave....

I still have some concerns about the double oven with no nearby landing space. Do you need a raised oven? I'm wondering if a double oven (one large/one smaller) with the Viking range, rather than cooktop, might be a good choice. It would some money...and while the inset double oven LOOKS cool, it also looks expensive to replace, if it breaks...down the road. What about a shallow pantry (12" to 18"?) along the 5' wall, between the kitchen and dining room doors. It looks like you have the room and it would make up for some lost storage with the range over cooktop.

Also, maybe a corner cabinet, for display/dishes, where the back wall meets the laundry bump out? I'm just trying to come up with less expensive solutions and still keep that great island. Oh, and don't forget a message center...maybe between the dining room door and corner cabinet?

Anyway, just some ideas...trying to save you a little money, so you can get that window! :)

Hi everyone. I've been trying to get paying work done (I freelance), but I've had more ideas bouncing around my head.

I'm liking what we all came up with for the island/table configuration. But, I really want to move the wall. I think it just opens up many options for the kitchen. I talked to the engineer today and am setting up an appt for him to evaluate next week. I also talked to a framer that a full-service firm who didn't want my small job referred me to. He does nothing but framing for builders and remodelers. He told me "realistically anywhere from $1500 to $3k" and he knows about pouring new footers if needed and building temp support walls on all 3 floors while the new support is being built. IF it is under $5k altogether to move the walls, then I'll do it. Our cabinets will come in at under $5k, so I figure for the $10k lots of folks in our neighborhood spend on cabinets at Home Depot, I'm getting the layout I really want.

So here is my latest plan (number 472 I think ;-) Janet--I got you some landing space for the ovens! Which is now also a beverage center outside the main work space, so I think that is good placement for kids to grab something and for adults at parties. All my wine glasses can go in the cab above. The micro is there as well. The micro might be better inside my L space, but this way, it's pretty convenient to getting heated stuff to the table. And we use it mostly for steaming veggies or heating up leftovers, so things usually go from micro to table. Plus there is more storage space with that unit.

I appreciate the feedback on the corner, but I like this cabinet versus the 36" lazy Susan (which I think should be renamed the "go-getter Susan" ;-). I don't like the piano hinge door on the Susan cab--I can see my kids banging it around and scratching up the cabinets around it will get banged up too. That IKEA corner unit has a door and it is just two half moon shelves that swing out. It may not hold as much, but I found it pretty handy to use. Plus, it gives me a drawer right there by the cooktop which the Susan doesn't have.

Another thing I realized is that the DR door shouldn't be centered on the wall--it needs to stay near where it is now. Even though I think it looks more aesthetically pleasing to be centered, that door is a direct pathway into the kitchen and we don't need to be maneuvering around the dining room table.

LavenderLass--you may have missed this in my earlier verbose posts, but I already have most of the appliances in the basement. They were a great deal from a fancy appliance store that went out of business. So, it's putting the cart before the horse, but I'm trying to work it all in. Thank you for helping me out on the window--I'm definitely going to find out the costs on that one. It would look much more upscale.

I'll check in after I've met with the engineer and get more precise bids on the wall. Keep your fingers crossed.

Thanks to everyone for your encouragement and suggestions so far.

Susan

Layout number 472:

View of the DR wall for this plan:

I love plan #472. The landing space for the ovens is so much better and the beverage center is a great idea!

Sorry I missed the appliance details...now that you mention it, sounds vaguely familiar, but I've been drawing three different plans and I think I'm starting to get them confused (LOL)

I really like the dining entry as you have it now, since it screens the stools from the dining room. I hope this is the one, because it's wonderful and would be so much fun to cook and bake in...best of luck with the remodel :)

Great job on getting it the way you want! Good luck with your meeting next week. Can't wait till you show your dream kitchen, and I know you'll love it.