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Flush Mount or Reveal Mount - aargh!

Posted by boone_2009 (My Page) on
Mon, Aug 5, 13 at 15:29

I've read the *many* posts on this forum about positive reveals, negative reveals etc but now that it's time for moi to decide if I want a flush mount vs reveal mount ( 1/4 inch of sink rim from edge of countertop) I cannot for the life of me choose :-(

The sink is a Vigo low-divide 32 inch ss; countertop is quartz ( Silestone Lagoon).

I like the flush look and so does DH, but I'm a bit scared after reading posts about how it's difficult to clean out any gunk.

So please weigh in with your votes - * puh-leeze*!

F? or R?


Follow-Up Postings:

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RE: Flush Mount or Reveal Mount - aargh!

I think that it is harder for a fabricator to do a zero reveal. Any inconsistency will be more noticeable. I think that it is a safer bet to get a bit of negative reveal.. It isn't hard to wipe a sponge under that ledge to keep that area clean.


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RE: Flush Mount or Reveal Mount - aargh!

My fabricator does not do zero reveal, I assume because it allows no margin for error. I got a slight positive reveal, because 1) it's easier to clean (I don't want any gunk to hide), 2) the sink remains its full size, and 3) less likely to bump breakables along the edge. Some people use the mini-ledge in a positive reveal to set a cutting board.


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RE: Flush Mount or Reveal Mount - aargh!

Thank you, gpraceman and linelle! Both of you have given me excellent reasons why I should not do a zero ( which I assume is 'flush') reveal.

I'm a bit confused, though - one of you has mentioned "positive" reveal and the other, "negative".

Which is it, when 1/4 inch of my sink rim will show from edge of countertop? I thought any bit of sink that showed beneath the countertop edge meant it is a positive reveal.

But then, a lot of my thoughts are hogwash ;-)


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RE: Flush Mount or Reveal Mount - aargh!

A negative reveal is where the counter overhangs the edge of the sink. I think that this is a bit easier for a fabricator to do and a zero or positive reveal is easier for our eyes to notice if it is not perfectly consistent all around.


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RE: Flush Mount or Reveal Mount - aargh!

boone_2009 - you are right. Positive reveal is when you see a bit of the sink edge under the countertop edge. With a negative reveal, the countertop extends slightly past the sink edge.

We did a zero reveal, which for me was exactly right. The fabricator didn't mention any issues with doing this, although it is the hardest one to do (with negative reveal being the easiest / most forgiving).


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RE: Flush Mount or Reveal Mount - aargh!

I have a very slight positive reveal. Its 1/16 of inch or less. Kinda of hard to measure but consistant around the sink. Its what the fabricator typically does and it sounded good to me. I can see that this or the zero reveal must take more skill than a larger negative reveal.

ditto what linelle said but mine is too small to use a cutting board insert.


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RE: Flush Mount or Reveal Mount - aargh!

Hey, thanks, guys!

gpraceman: at last, I feel 'informed'. hehehe.

calumin: yaaay, *some* of my thoughts are on target, phew!

debrak2008: 1/16th of an inch positive reveal seems so much better aesthetically than the 1/4 inch suggested by my sink manufacturer :-(


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RE: Flush Mount or Reveal Mount - aargh!

You will have gunk regardless - there was a post awhile ago showing all of the gunk possibilities.
If I could do it again - I would go with the positive reveal but only 1/16 of an inch - a quarter is pretty darn big.


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RE: Flush Mount or Reveal Mount - aargh!

Let me just put in my $0.02 for a negative reveal. It allows all the crumbs begin swept into the sink to go directly to the bottom of the sink, instead of catching on the positive reveal. I too was worried about gunk getting stuck on the underside of the counter, but it just doesn't happen. I've even purposefully refrained from washing that area for a couple of weeks (yeah, sounds gross!) yet there was no gunk to clean out afterward. Also, I like the look of a negative reveal. It's just a matter of personal preference. But either a positive or negative reveal will be easier for the fabricator than a flush.

Isn't it amazing how many decisions have to be made when doing a kitchen? Whew!


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RE: Flush Mount or Reveal Mount - aargh!

Our granite fabricators did a perfect flush cut. I recommend it.

 photo airswitch.jpg


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RE: Flush Mount or Reveal Mount - aargh!

Thanks, a2gemini, repac and suzannesl :-).

Now I am really torn. Let's see... you're evenly divided between positive, negative and zero reveals! Cut me some slack, people!

Seriously, though, I really appreciate all your advice and comments. I love the flush reveal pic that suzannesl posted.

Any pics of negative reveals?

I, too, think 1/4 inch is just too much for a positive reveal but that's what the Vigo sink instructions advise ( don't know why).Which leads me to ask you all: did you follow your heart or the sink manual's diktat..er, suggestion.. when deciding on what kind of reveal you wanted? ( And does doing the former at the expense of the latter lead to complications down the( sink) line? ;-)

Thanks again!!!


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RE: Flush Mount or Reveal Mount - aargh!

My Houzer stainless steel sink was installed with the manufacturer's template, so it has a 1/4" positive reveal. The sink is made with a shiny surface on that 1/4" area, so it's made to be visible. I find it very easy to clean, much easier than my bathroom vanity, which has a negative reveal.

In the bathroom, I'm always preoccupied with discoloration on the caulk under the granite overhang, because water seems to "hang" in that area beneath the faucet.

My only complaint about the positive reveal in the kitchen sink is that it's not big enough to balance a cutting board. I would have preferred that.


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RE: Flush Mount or Reveal Mount - aargh!

Thank you for your input, fredanj - very helpful to know the 1/4 inch reveal is not bad at all.
:-)


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RE: Flush Mount or Reveal Mount - aargh!

My main sink's reveal is slightly more than 1/4" and I love it for being so easy to clean.

The sink at our breakfast bar is a flush reveal (don't ask!, it was supposed to be positive but we got our wires crossed) and I don't like it at all. Gunk does collect in there and I never claimed to be the world's best cleaner. I just went a checked it now, seeing this thread, and in a word -- gross!

Here's a pics of each sink so you can compare. Personally I think the 1/4"+ reveal looks great.

 photo IMG_0347_zps857d0d6a.jpg

 photo DSCN3820-1.jpg

Okay, I'm off to clean out some gunk now ... sigh.


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RE: Flush Mount or Reveal Mount - aargh!

Hi Boone - I haven't started my kitchen yet, but I'll be positive reveal all the way. I had previously and think it looks good. Being able to allow for a cutting board is an added bonus.


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RE: Flush Mount or Reveal Mount - aargh!

taggie and Mgoblue85 - sorry for the late response. I met with the fabricator today- he came in to measure the countertops. We went back and forth quite a bit as he kept saying 'flush' for what seemed to definitely be a negative reveal, even with us looking at the template that came along with our sink. We got it sorted out finally (fingers crossed) and there will be a slight positive reveal - I *think*, omg.
taggie - thank you for posting those pics - they were very helpful; I saw them only now though, after he left, gulp..so I think I'll show them both to him in case we did get *our *wires crossed! Is the gunk really that bad with the flush? Aww.
Mgoblue85: thanks for your feedback re the positive reveal!


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RE: Flush Mount or Reveal Mount - aargh!

taggie: I showed those pics to the fabricator. They say our sink will look like your flush reveal sink. But the sink template ( which I am attaching) shows two lines - inner line is for flush mount reveal, outer ( bottom) line is for 1/4 inch reveal.
We chose the outer line. Isn't that a positive reveal and shouldn't our sink then look like your main sink?
According to the fabricator - no.
Please advise, please help Taggie or anyone else.
This is getting to be a PITA!
Thanks a lot!


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RE: Flush Mount or Reveal Mount - aargh!

I don't know if you can see the two lines clearly.

For clarification -

the angled line in ink points to the inner perforated line on the sink template and the words above it say: Use this line for flush mount cut.
The ink arrow going straight down to the bottom ( which was drawn by the fabricator to the outer line which is the one we chose) is the outer perforated line.

The 5 lines of printed words above all this, say the following:

Use outside line for reveal mount cut: Sink rim is 1/4 inch revealed from the countertop opening.
Use inside line for flush mount cut: Sink wall is flush to the edge of countertop opening.
Please check actual template against physical sink unit for most accurate cut!

The sink is a Vigo VG3218.

Please advise!!! :-(


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RE: Flush Mount or Reveal Mount - aargh!

Have you placed the template over the actual sink to see how much that outer line covers? That is what will end up being visible for that reveal.


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RE: Flush Mount or Reveal Mount - aargh!

If they can't or won't do a flush mount, then they should be replaced.


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RE: Flush Mount or Reveal Mount - aargh!

gpraceman: ah, yes, he did that and there *seemed* to be less than 1/4 inch reveal shown ( for outer line). Is that common, for sink manufacturers enclosing templates ( this is their template that came with the sink) to enclose something that turns out to be different when placed against the actual sink?

That is what the fabricator said - he said, this is all wrong, don't look at it.

Moi being all anxious and even a bit paranoid :-), I was worried, especially after reading countless posts on how fabricators try to push negative reveals over flush or positive because it is easier!

So maybe that's why it may end up almost a flush mount??
Dang. I wanted a more positive reveal and it's too late to return the sink etc.

Thank you, gpraceman - as always.

eve72: thank you for your support and help, much appreciated! I don't want a flush mount, I want a positive reveal. But I guess the issue has been decided by the template!


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RE: Flush Mount or Reveal Mount - aargh!

Just because there is a sink template, doesn't mean that it is accurate (manufacturer could have made a change) and that you have to use it. The fabricator can measure off of the actual sink and give you the reveal that you want from that.


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RE: Flush Mount or Reveal Mount - aargh!

gpraceman: I didn't even know I could do that. Thanks. I'll ask.
Do you have a negative or positive reveal? If the latter, how much in inches? Is there any 'best' positive reveal, at all, in terms of both aesthetics and practicality?
Some members like the 1/4 inch, some don't.
I *think* I'm overthinking all this!!!


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RE: Flush Mount or Reveal Mount - aargh!

Ours is a farmhouse sink with a slight negative reveal. We like wiping off the counters into the sink and not having to then clean up a ledge of where everything fell. We don't notice any gunk building up under the lip of our counter.

Welcome to the overthinkers club;-)


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RE: Flush Mount or Reveal Mount - aargh!

Farmhouse sinks are lovely.

Good point about not having to clean up the ledge.

I think I'll just let this all 'go' and wait to be (happily) surprised by whatever happens with our sink. I've turned it over to our KD who is great and who will follow up with fabricator.

There's a cartoon underneath my transparent desk-pad, which shows 2 birds nonchalantly perched on a high wire and a third next to them, holding on for dear life to the wire with one leg and one wing-paw, body dangling and twitching, looking down at the ( unseen) ground, his eyes popped wide open and mouth agape in total consternation. The "bubble" above one of the sitting birds ( who has his head tilted down at his pitiful compatriot, his expression admonitory), says: "You're overthinking this, Phil."
LOL.


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RE: Flush Mount or Reveal Mount - aargh!

Especially if they are doing a flush mount, they should measure off the sink and not the template.

It's kind of strange that your fabricator is saying something opposite from what is clearly stated in the template.


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RE: Flush Mount or Reveal Mount - aargh!

Boone, I'm not sure why he's saying the template's positive reveal lines will give you a flush reveal, it doesn't make a lot of sense. But you should just tell your fabricator that you want and expect a positive reveal and that if he's not confident about the template then he should come and measure your actual sink and template from that.

Unless perhaps he just isn't seeing my prep sink picture properly and thinks it's a positive reveal? Beause it is kind of hard to see in the small picture and it might look like a positive reveal where the sink rim sort of curves a bit at the top. But I assure you it's a dead flush reveal, you can put a straight edge horizontally down the granite lip and sink and it's exactly flush. The gap is the slight curve of the sink lip, andthat'ss what makes it so horrible as that's where all the lovely gunk hangs up over time and there's no easy way to clean it except to just try and get into the crevices with a long-bristled pot scrubber. Fun? Not! So I would definitely get your templater on board with your plan while you can.

Good luck!


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RE: Flush Mount or Reveal Mount - aargh!

calumin and taggie: I asked him again to clarify if the sink rim reveal would be 1/4 inch as indicated on the template ... and he said today that it would be "1/8th inch all around giving a total of 1/4 inch". Total??? I've never heard it being put like that :-)

I took out the sink just now and measured the rim. The rim is one inch exactly, all around. The enclosed instructions say:
"Reveal Mount: Sink rim is exposed approximately 1/4" from the edge of countertop opening."

Is one-eighth of an inch considered a very tiny positive reveal, or does it qualify as a flush reveal?

At this point, I don't know just what to do.

Is 1/8th inch okay in terms of ease of cleaning? I really don't know what 'amount' of reveal I want ( in inches) ; all I know is that I want some reveal so I can clean the sink and mold won't form underneath the countertop/sink, although I know that many members have said they don't find it hard to clean their flush mounts.

Is it more difficult for the fabricator to do a 1/4 inch reveal as opposed to a 1/8th? If the sink rim measures 1 inch, shouldn't it be easier to do a 1/4 inch reveal than a smaller 1/8th inch?
He will be using clear silicone caulk.


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RE: Flush Mount or Reveal Mount - aargh!

It is your counter and you are paying a good amount of money for it. If you want 1/4" positive reveal, then that is what you need to tell the fabricator and he should oblige without a fuss.

If the template doesn't give you the reveal that you want, then it should not be used and the reveal should go off of measurements taken from the actual sink.


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RE: Flush Mount or Reveal Mount - aargh!

gpraceman: I know - but I just don't understand why he veers off on his own tangent, so to speak.

That's why I asked the questions in my immediate post above - perhaps there's something about 1/8th of an inch that is "better" than 1/4th, that I am unaware of - whether it be ease of fabrication, practicality for the homeowner, aesthetics, durability where sink is concerned, better "attachment" properties, *whatever*. ( I'm just throwing stuff out there - maybe it has to do with the tides and the moon).

I have asked him to please explain his reasons.


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RE: Flush Mount or Reveal Mount - aargh!

I would think a 1/8" reveal will be great. As long as your sink doesn't curve or slope downward at that last 1/8" it will let you get a nice tight seal and will be easy to clean.

My main sink does have a downward slope at the last 1/8" which is why the 1/4" was recommended for my sink. But if your sink's top edge is perfectly flat then the 1/8" reveal should be excellent.

(The bigger question is why does your contractor keep talking in tongues? It's kind of odd ... hope he knows what he's doing.).


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RE: Flush Mount or Reveal Mount - aargh!

Thanks, taggie!


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RE: Flush Mount or Reveal Mount - aargh!

I had the same problem. I wanted positive reveal. I got flush mount.

Now I run into the same gunk problem that taggie does ... the sink rim curves a bit at the top which leaves a slight gap between the sink and the granite just right at the edge. I take a washcloth and my fingernail and run around the crevice to get the gunk out. It wouldn't be so bad if it was our primary residence, because I would make sure it stayed clean. But it is a vacation rental home and it is not cleaned to my standards, I can tell you !! If it had been negative reveal, it would be even worse. The gap would still be there, but hidden up under the edge.

Also, I had wanted to be able to sit a cutting board in there on the positive reveal. But, my sink came with a cutting board that fits over the top of the sink, so that's ok.

Looks wise, it looks fine as flush mount. And positive would have looked fine as well.


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RE: Flush Mount or Reveal Mount - aargh!

If your sink's top inside edge has any radius or bevel to it, I would suggest leaving at least that much reveal. Here's my Silgranite sink with an 1/8" radius edge, and an 1/8" reveal, just exposing the radius on the sink. Easy to wipe clean...


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RE: Flush Mount or Reveal Mount - aargh!

angela12345: thanks for your feedback :-).
I can imagine what a pain it must be to keep that vacation rental sink clean!

ctycdm: thank you for so kindly posting that pic. Looks lovely. I feel better, now :-).

I'll post a pic of my sink in a bit - not 100 percent sure if it has a bevel but I have to get the box out and look again.


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RE: Flush Mount or Reveal Mount - aargh!

Okay, here are some pics I took of our kitchen sink :-). It has a very tiny sloping edge to it.
First pic is of the entire sink; I know how to upload only one pic at a time :-(, so two other pics of the edge detail follow after.


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RE: Flush Mount or Reveal Mount - aargh!

Next pic


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RE: Flush Mount or Reveal Mount - aargh!

And the last one.


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RE: Flush Mount or Reveal Mount - aargh!

I sometimes find myself relaxingly browsing GW ...and suddenly sit up straight with the realization there is an issue I need to understand a lot more than I do ( or sometimes an issue I didn't know was an issue ).

That is certainly the case this week on counters and fabricators. I am so glad to get the benefit of others questions!


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RE: Flush Mount or Reveal Mount - aargh!

Hi Miruca,
I'm glad you feel you are learning stuff! Sometimes I cringe when I post a question that is pretty basic, because it probably seems quite silly to other more knowledgeable forum members! :-)


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RE: Flush Mount or Reveal Mount - aargh!

Need help please. I am going bonkers.

After a lot of going back and forth and with moi settling on a 1/8th inch positive sink reveal, I asked fabricator to confirm.

He first sends email saying it will be : "1/8th inch negative"

Soon after, ( within minutes) another email arrives and he sends apologies and says: "It will be 1/8th inch positive sink reveal and 1/8th inch negative overhang."

Please clarify what this means. I thought it's either a positive reveal or a negative reveal, not both?? If both, it seems to me that each cancels the other and the sink will be flush or zero reveal!!! That is, if he is means this for each of the 4 sides... another thing to ask him to clarify!!!!


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RE: Flush Mount or Reveal Mount - aargh!

Is it possible it means the same thing?


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RE: Flush Mount or Reveal Mount - aargh!

Initially, I thought the same thing but then wouldn't he have used "or" instead of "and"?

Linelle, to say I am frustrated is an understatement.

I send him pics to show exactly what I mean and he doesn't even use those pics to explain what he means!


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RE: Flush Mount or Reveal Mount - aargh!

I spoke to a tech guy from Vigo and he says he has no idea why the fabricator would use "overhang" as the template does not provide for any overhang of the countertop.

He ( Vigo sink person) clarified that the template provides for a 1/4th inch positive reveal and there should be no problems getting that done. He said an overhang of the countertop ( negative reveal) would only cut down on the total size of the sink bowl.

He did not understand what the fabricator meant by saying "one eighth inch positive sink reveal and one-eighth inch negative overhang" and said it made no sense to him.

Any fabricators on this forum who could help me out?

Thanks!


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RE: Flush Mount or Reveal Mount - aargh!

Boone - it sounds like you need a new fabricator. Short of that, I would tell him that I would not sign-off until he drew a picture of how this would look using the labels he referenced so you can follow his terminology. I think something is wrong if he can not explain what this will look like in common terms. Good luck!


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RE: Flush Mount or Reveal Mount - aargh!

My thoughts exactly, Mgoblue85. Thank you!


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RE: Flush Mount or Reveal Mount - aargh!

Could it be that 1/8" radius corner edge of the sink + 1/8" ledge = 1/4" positive reveal? To our eye that would probably look like a 1/8" reveal.


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RE: Flush Mount or Reveal Mount - aargh!

Maybe, gpraceman.
I don't know but it's something to keep in mind. I'll have to ask when we meet this week ( fingers crossed).
Thank you :-).


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RE: Flush Mount or Reveal Mount - aargh!

Boone_2009,

I can understand your concerns about your fabricators confusing communication. I think I may have figured out what he meant. In a previous post you wrote

"Need help please. I am going bonkers.
After a lot of going back and forth and with moi settling on a 1/8th inch positive sink reveal, I asked fabricator to confirm.

He first sends email saying it will be : "1/8th inch negative"

Soon after, ( within minutes) another email arrives and he sends apologies and says: "It will be 1/8th inch positive sink reveal and 1/8th inch negative overhang."

Please clarify what this means. I thought it's either a positive reveal or a negative reveal, not both?? "

I think when your fabricator said there will be a one eighth inch positive sink reveal and a one eighth inch negative overhang that these mean the same thing; he just didn't include the word 'counter' in the second part of his statement, so that it would read "a one eighth inch negative counter overhang"

See the diagram below, it might help. Hmmm... I hope I'm not just adding more confusion.

I hope when you meet with him this week that everything will be cleared up.


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RE: Flush Mount or Reveal Mount - aargh!

pentimento: how generous of you to give me your thoughtful feedback..and a diagram, too!! ( Very impressed :-)).

Alas! I still don't understand ( though trying very hard to :-))... does a "negative reveal" mean something very different from a "negative counter overhang"?

I always associated a 'negative reveal" with the countertop going a bit over the sink and thereby hiding the rim of the sink. In other words, the countertop overhangs the sink, correct?

Sigh. I send my apologies, I really do. In my ( ignorant) eyes, the negative and positive headings in your diagram seem like they should switch sides! Double sigh.

I hope I hear from him soon- he was supposed to show us the sample laminated edge today or tomorrow.

Thank you, again, pentimento - very much. You tried.


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RE: Flush Mount or Reveal Mount - aargh!

Sorry you are experiencing so much difficulty with the issue of sink reveal. I did find the article below that discusses sink installation using the term over "overhangs". If you look at the illustrations you can see that the negative overhang actually reaveals the top edge of the sink. In other words, a negative overhang results in a positive reveal.
I saw in your first post that you were concerned about a flush or zero reveal installation and cleaning gunk. I have a zero reveal/flush installation and there is absolutely no place for gunk to collect. The caulk line is so minimal that it is almost invisible. Here is how my sink looks.

Photobucket Pictures, Images and Photos

I hope that you get your sink concerns resolved soon

Here is a link that might be useful: sink reveals


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RE: Flush Mount or Reveal Mount - aargh!

badgergal: thank you for your empathy and for such useful feedback with that lovely pic of your flush sink and for the link - which I'm going to read in bed, soon after I post this :-).

In my very first post above, I did mention that I like the flush reveal - and your sink pic makes me like it more:-).
I was just worried after reading about cleaning issues that some people had with their flush mount sinks.
But come to think of it... a flush or zero reveal is what an undermount sink is truly about... otherwise we'd all stick to overmounts!

I think pentimento ( and my fabricator) were trying to say the same thing as you: that a negative overhang results in a positive reveal. I see the light at the end of the tunnel ;-).

So for now, I'll take either the flush mount or the 1/8th inch reveal - all that is needed now is...my fabricator to meet with me!

I am so thankful to everyone who helped me out on this thread - I was really frustrated and tense when I first posted..

10.20 p.m here..goodnight and thanks for the reading material!


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RE: Flush Mount or Reveal Mount - aargh!

Hello, everyone!

I was going to let you all know how everything turned out in my 'kitchen reveal'.. but Jellytoast's thread today about closure made me cringe. In my defense, the countertop was installed only 4 days ago ( Sept 20th) and I have just recovered from all the tension preceding this event ;-).

The installation went beautifully, yaaay!! We finally went for a positive reveal, insisted on gettingwhat we wanted, went over the overhang confusion with the fabricator several times ( with diagrams) and now love how the new sink looks.

I will post pics when I do *my* reveal :-).

Thank you, all, for your time and your help. :-)


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RE: Flush Mount or Reveal Mount - aargh!

Yay, thanks for coming back and updating us. I love it when people do that !!


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RE: Flush Mount or Reveal Mount - aargh!

Thank you both for updating and for asking the question in the first place.
I'm learning so much I didn't know - stuff I didn't know about to know that I didn't know! And all of this is going to be important to me in several months, when our kitchen finally gets underway.

Thanks too to all who've posted pictures.


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