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Help with this kitchen layout

Posted by Barbarav (My Page) on
Mon, Aug 25, 14 at 12:22

It has been suggested to me in another thread that I might want to post my layout because it seems off.
This is a 1980s deck house we've lived in for 4 years. We are flipping the kitchen to make it more functional, to me anyway. I'll attach a before (bookcases, pantry, and desk are removed!), as well as an "in progress" photo, and a picture of the layout, which seemed ok to me. This is a one cook family, older couple, no kids. Let me know what you think or if you need anything else. Thank you, thank you! Ok can only attach one photo now. It's the layout that needs the critique.


Follow-Up Postings:

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RE: Help with this kitchen layout

This is how it was.

This post was edited by Barbarav on Mon, Aug 25, 14 at 22:26


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RE: Help with this kitchen layout

This is a simulated setup. The wooden cabinet is the fridge, the island is 4x7.5'.


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RE: Help with this kitchen layout

Barbara, I didn't know you had the slanted roof line. My concern was the cooktop on the island and the fridge placement. What is your aisle width for pulling out the fridge? Are you using a vent hood over the cooktop?

This has fallen to page 2 with no replies so I'll give it the bump. Too many layouts, too many layout experts busy with back-to-school this week!

This post was edited by may_flowers on Tue, Aug 26, 14 at 19:28


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Thanks May_flowers! The distance between the island and the fridge is 48". The one between the CT and sink is 45". The fridge will go where the wooden cabinet w/glass doors is, in the photo above. There will be a vent hood above the induction cooktop.
The sink goes in the empty space opposite the island and has 69" of prep space to the right.
DW is to the left of the sink. The windows you see run the length of that 25' wall, hence very little wall space for tall things. What looks off to you about the fridge? Thank you.
BTW, good luck with your back to schoolers!


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I actually think the basic layout is pretty good. You don't have a ton of space on each side of the cooktop, but you've got a pretty great stretch directly behind.

Only a few things jumped out at me, related to cabinet choices. Why two 12" cabs on the island? Seems like a waste of space. I think drawers under the cooktop would be much more convenient then a cabinet with doors. In fact, I personally put all drawers except for one cabinet that holds my mixer, so if you can manage it, do more drawers. What kind of cabinets are on each side of the wall oven? I can't read those.

Anyway, excellent start for your space. You'll find that many here on GW are against island cooktops, but I grew up with one and have no such issue. It was fine, and I never got injured. ;) They are more expensive to vent, but if you are willing to accept that, I think you are fine. Good luck!


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Not the danger of the cooktop but the expense and venting of it. In the original thread with only the floorplan, it looked like the cooktop could go where the fridge is. It seems the hood will be the prominent feature in your kitchen.


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Thanks Controlfriekecs. I do want the 2 deep drawers under the cooktop and a 30" 2 top utensil/ 2 deep bottom drawers to the right. I did those 2 12" spice pullouts because I was originally looking at ikea cabinets. I'm now talking to a cabinet man and he'll be here tomorrow to show me some drawings. I just know I'd like a place for spices, oils, and some canned goods on the left.
To the right of the oven will be a pull out for mits and baking sheets. To the left will be drawers for coffee and tea stuff. The coffee maker will rest on this counter, too.
I'm curious as to why the opposition to island cooktops? This will be a first for me and I did it for a couple of reasons- my prep area is usually messy, there's more room to prep on the window side, and I like the uninterrupted flow the cooktop gives the island. Thanks for your comments.


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The oven in the corner is the only thing that jumps out at me. I would worry about someone opening the garage door and coming in without paying attention while someone else is taking hot stuff out of the oven.

I had a similar layout but swapped the oven and the fridge. That way hot food goes from the oven to the island. The fridge is in the way of the garage entrance, and while that is more probable it is less dangerous.


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Ah, I had assumed those were tall pullouts on each side of the ovens, creating a "wall of tall" and, much like the 2 12" next to the cooktop, figured they would be more efficient joined. You should be able to have a 24" pullout that can hold spices, oils, frequently used canned items etc., and it will be more actual storage space than dividing it into two. And I feel the same way about the 2 little pieces of counter on either side of the oven. First, I think they will look really strange, and secondly, they aren't big enough to be useful. Combine them, put them at the end next to the door. Better landing space, coffee maker space, etc. You could swap fridge and oven. Unless the garage entrance is a really busy throughway, I doubt it will be a big issue. Your island will likely be the landing space for your fridge, and counter on sink wall for oven. I'd be worried about people cutting through my cooking zone to get a snack or beverage out of the fridge if it was by the door to the garage.

Island cooktops are not considered ideal for several reasons, which leads people to strongly discourage them here. I have heard many claims that they are unsafe, but really you just need to ensure that you have enough space around it. I have certainly seen them in "before kitchens" where the cooktop is essentially the entire island surface, and I can agree in that case. Also they are more expensive and just more difficult to vent, since odors, moisture and grease are not partially contained by a wall on one side. But, just because they are not ideal doesn't mean they can't work if proper care is taken.


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Maxmillion, the door you see to the left of the oven area is actually a sliding door to a pantry (think closet turned pantry). It's in a 7' hall that leads to a door to the garage. It's just the two of us that use that entrance.
Controlfriekecs, yes, I hope he uses a 24" pullout to the left of the CT. The oven btw is under the counter, creating a 57" counter above it, a 15" cab right and 12" cab left.The new 30" bosch induction ct cannot go over an oven so originally I was going to create "a wall of tall" on the fridge wall, then decided that visually (because the sloped ceiling is rather low on that left side) an under the counter oven worked better.
As for venting (I'm reluctant to say this here), I'm 63 and have probably turned on a vent only a handful of times, if that. (And I cook a lot!) Some homes didn't even have a vent. They are just so darn noisy. So part of me wants to forego it and skip the expense. Having said that, I know what GWers, will have to say about that! Maybe one the recirculates? Yikes.


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Controlfreakecs is right. Our general objection to island/peninsula cooktops is when there isn't a sufficient safety zone around them. Grease, scalding steam, etc. travel pretty far - so you don't want people sitting too close behind or standing too close on the sides of the cooktop. You appear to have 24" all around - that's sufficient space, so your cooktop is safe! The 24" is especially important if you will have people sitting at the island behind the cooktop.

However, be aware that since you do not have a wall or cabinets around the hood, you will need an oversized hood - at least 6" wider than your cooktop and 27" deep. This will make it a focal point in your kitchen, so choose a nice (but effective) one! Oh, and it will need to be stronger as well. I recommend getting an overpowered (at least 1000cfms) as well so you can run it on Low most of the time so it's quieter. Also get an inline fan instead of one that has the fan in the hood directly over the cooktop - inline fans are also quieter (it puts the fan & fan motor farther away so it's quieter).

You are lacking in work space, but if you do all your prep work on the counter behind, then you'll be fine. It's a shame you don't have a large expanse of uninterrupted workspace on the island (for large projects, etc.).


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Buehl and everyone, do you think I should make the island longer than 7.5'? DH and I just took down the wall and bookcases next to the FP that separated the kitchen from the living room and the difference in light is amazing. Plus I can now see the lake from the island. What do you think?


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Is there any place else that you can put a pantry. It looks like that's an outside wall, and a focal point area. It would look really great if that could be the range wall.

Super quick and bad cut and paste, but you get the idea. You'd have a HUGE prep area in front of the windows. And someone could also be cleaning up the dirties at the same time.


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You answered some of the questions I had on your other thread here. It sounds like your better view may be through the DR and LR rather than out the kitchen windows. Is that right?

I'm not really seeing the sloping ceiling wall as a focal point I'd want to accentuate, but if you start thinking in that direction, I'd consider a range so you can have more counter and pantry space.

Yes, you really should be using a vent unless all you do is heat canned food and boil water. It would help with odors and steam even them, but it does make a difference in the comfort and cleanliness of your home. Every time your cooktop is on and a food steams, you add moisture, odors and possible grease and guk to the air in your home. Fish and bacon will linger for a long time and can become permanent. Even your kitty tuna can be rather potent. When you put that cooktop in the center with an island, everything spreads all the more than it would against a wall with uppers . An island vent hood not only needs to be larger and deeper than a wall hood, it is also double sided and they need proper support. Both the cost of the hood and the installation will be more expensive than running them form an outside wall.


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Lascatx, when I stand at the cooktop i am looking through the windows in the dining and living rooms onto trees and a lake. It's beautiful. I'm not trying to accentuate the that side/fridge wall. To me it's about function. It's why I decided to use an under counter placement for the oven. I needed a home for the coffee maker, teas, etc. plus he oven and cookie sheets, so that area has about 57" of counter space. To me it looks better visually that a high oven cabinet would.
That said, the cabinet guy, floor guy, and designer visited today. The cabinet guy thinks I should center the cooktop. The designer thinks I should end he run of sink cabinets in line with the island, moving the sink down the window a bit. Geesh. My brain feels fried. Something to work on tomorrow. What do you guys think of those suggestions?
Oh, live wire, that pantry is 66", and not easily placeable in a kitchen with all windows. I personally like the island better than the peninsula, which I feel cuts the room in half.
Thanks everyone. I so appreciate your comments so please keep them coming.


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The focus on the angled wall comment was aimed at those who thought it should have the cooktop or range and be a focal point. I didn't realize that section left of the fridge would be bases (no uppers?). That would be a good work area and eliminate the clutter catcher concern I had for the end where you plan to have the coffee maker.

As far as centering the cooktop, there is something to be said for having a larger space to one side and going off center. Yours is close enough that I don't think it would bother any but the most symmetry-OCD types, and they probably won't like your sloped ceiling anyway. I would look at how you plan to use the space and make the decision on that basis. Buehl pointed out that 24" on each side is the rule of thumb for safety, so you might not want to go any further off center. All I can tell you on that is that I had one cooktop with less than 9 inches on one side -- not enough to rest a plate while taking up dinner or bowls while cooking. Less than 12-18 inches is dysfunctional before you even get to safety.

I did notice that the cabinet on the sink wall seems to be running to the very end of the wall and past the window frame. It almost looks like it or certainly the counter could run into the doorway trim or opening. You are going to want at least 2-3 inches to have some wall past the edge of the counter and add to that any door frame width if you have one. I'd pull it back a bit.


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In that case, I remove my objection to the oven in the corner!

I also wanted to add that I think a "wall of tall" would look great in that space. Here are some photos of walls of tall with sloped ceilings. Some of them are created using uppers, but I like the strong line created. I think short to tall will create a weird step look.


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I am a bit OCD about alignment, but not so much symmetry. Even so, I centered my cooktop on my island, and I absolutely aligned the end of the island with the end of the run of cabinetry. You wouldn't have to move the cabinetry much in your case, so I would definitely do it.

For centering the cooktop, would elongating the island by adding 6 inches of something to the left of the cooktop be an option? That would also keep your sink / cooktop distance the same if you align them.

I tried to find an example of a kitchen with a mix of base cabs and tall cabs with a sloped ceiling, and this is the only one I came across.


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Maxmillion, I'm going to try your suggestion today and thank you for the photos! I definitely like straight across rather than the step look. That last pic is kind of how it would look- w/o the continuous L-shape, with white cabinets.
Lascatx, that run going to the doorway bugs me too. It did not bother the designer, as long as there was enough room for the overhang of counter. On the oven run, I did not plan for uppers- maybe a stainless or other type shelf. One of my pet peeves is having to pull the coffee maker out from upper cabs to fill it with water! Goofy, I know. But I love the convenience of not having to do that!
I have given myself till the end of the day to finalize this plan. Floors are going in on the 22nd, meaning plumbing and electric have to be done before that. Yikes!


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Re: One of my pet peeves is having to pull the coffee maker out from upper cabs to fill it with water! Goofy, I know. But I love the convenience of not having to do that!

Here is how I addressed your pet-peeve, since it was the same as mine. I LOVE not dragging the coffemaker out from under the cabs every morning (yes, EVERY morning:))).


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I so wish there was a like button on GW, lol. Like your solution, Kari! Pretty kitchen. Is that soapstone?


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What the heck? That was NOT upside down on the preview. Sorry about that. Yes, soapstone. I wish we had your beautiful wall of windows!


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Some ideas to play with perhaps

Barbara,
I just skimmed over the entries. Perhaps I misread. Is your best view from the kitchen when you are at the island? Then THAT is where I would want to prep. We spend MUCH more time prepping than working at a stove. And I would put the stove on the outside wall.

But leaving the basic plan as it is, here are some ideas-- just to put them on the table.
 photo SUNKITCHEN_zpsf08e3a38.jpg

I would consider making the island somewhat longer. Good that you have 30" deep cabs on the island. And I would definitely want a prep sink on the island. Nice to have one close to the fridge and to the island I am not sure what the corner object with the two circles is, but I moved it.

You could make the tall cabs in the top corner into a corner pantry. It could hold more than an in line pantry and be much more accessible with shallower shelving. I personally would put tall spice shelving on the back of the pantry door. Much more space efficient and easier to reach than undercounted pullouts. I put them on my pantry door and a recent remodeler did also.

Since the room is so open and the home is full of wonderful windows, I would like the blank end wall to have wall cabs. Both for storage and sort of for balance. I would seriously consider 15" deep wall cabs. You won't work on this counter run very much. I know you are considering no upper cabs, but I personally would definitely want them on this wall.

This post was edited by Bellsmom on Sun, Aug 31, 14 at 9:20


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Some ideas to play with perhaps

Edited to remove duplicate post. Sorry!!

This post was edited by Bellsmom on Mon, Sep 1, 14 at 11:37


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RE: Help with this kitchen layout

Bellsmom, how long is the island? And does it bother you (or anyone else) that it goes beyond that wall perpendicular to it? When I see that on paper, the island and cabs look balanced. But in real life there's something about it that bugs me. This space is very linear because of the beams, openings, and windows. And I'm trying to think ahead for lighting. Of course, right now there's 2 chairs in the big opening because our TV is now beside the sink. Tomorrow, I think I'll clear as much as I can out and maybe get a clearer picture.
That pantry in the corner is one big piece. It holds so much stuff, including spices on the doors, all sorts of dishes in one half, and foods and bigger pots in the other. This piece, along with the run of cabinets under the window were part of the original kitchen and we're reusing them. I love shaker so i repainted them. But the run on the right is 69" and they are made as a unit. If i want to shorten the run, i have to cut off one of the cabinets.
The island and the 57" undercounter oven cabinet will be new, painted a warm grey, same shaker style.
I'm having trouble knowing what size cabinets to put in the island. For those of you with the cooktop there, are big drawers better (besides the 2 big ones thatll go under the cooktop)? Do I need spice pull outs? Do I need a door/shelf cabinet, or just drawer cabinets? Geez this is getting me nutzo. I think I've changed this island 20 times. Ok, enough.
Thank you again!


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(I realize you are more than ready to "just do it" and quit rethinking your island. You may not want to play with any more ideas. If not, no problem. You will like whatever you do. But if you still have thinking energy and time---)

OK, I wasn't aware that you were reusing old cabs. That limits the redesign of the solid wall area, of course. So, although I strongly prefer the "wall of tall" suggested by maxmillion, I understand deciding to go with what you have.

RE: the island.
Personally, I would NOT put spice storage on the island. I have never understood spices stored adjacent to an oven. Many do and love it. The transferred heat might be slight, but any additional heat would be undesirable. If you have spice storage on the inside of the pantry doors, I would consider that optimal.

So really, the only remaining viable decisions are the island.
1. I would definitely make the two 12" drawer cabs on the island into one 24" cab. You lose at least 3" or so of drawer width when you make two instead of one.

2. Regarding the length of the island. I think instead of shortening the island to meet the perpendicular wall above it, I would seriously consider lengthening it to jibe with the window wall below. Seriously, how is that space to the right of the island as it is ever going to be used? If you have time, mock it up to that length and see what you think. If you do this, you would probably add an additional 24" drawer cab to the island.

3. Regarding the apportionment of the storage in the island:

It all depends on how much other efficient drawer storage you have and what you want to store on the island. Are the cabinets on the long sink wall drawer cabinets or traditional shelf cabinets with doors? Same question regarding the cabinets you will repurpose for the refrigerator wall. I am guessing they are mostly door cabs.

I would absolutely NOT put a shelf cabinet in the island UNLESS I had a big mixer and needed a mixer lift. And if you are not planning to prep on the island, that is very unlikely.

So, drawer cabs only. I would think the existing tall pantry, the pantry you describe as being in the hall to the garage, and the two deep drawers below the range would give you plenty of space for large pots and small appliances. I would use standard 3-drawer cabs on the right with the top one being shallowest.
I MIGHT consider a four-drawer cabinet on the left. Again it all depends on what you will want to store and how many drawers are on the long sink wall and the fridge wall. If those are mostly shelf cabinets, then a four-drawer unit might be better for smaller, often-used cooking utensils. BUT if you want to store oils and other cooking staples on the island (I would not want them under the cooktop where I would be standing, but rather beside me so I didn't have to block the cooktop to access them), a three drawer unit with an extra deep bottom drawer might be better. Measure what you want to store there and decide.

A final comment: Where will you store dishes as you take them out of the DW? I would HATE having to store them in base cabinets and you have no wall cabs. You might seriously consider dish drawers in the wide cabinet in the island. Then you could just open the DW AND the dish drawer, unload the DW and place the dishes in the drawer. Many here have dish drawers and love them. Very space efficient and accessible.

Take a few minutes and scan this link if you are not familiar with dish drawers. Some really good pics and comments here.

Best luck. No matter what you do you will love it.

Here is a link that might be useful: Dish drawer storage

This post was edited by Bellsmom on Sun, Aug 31, 14 at 10:31


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Hrm, I hadn't thought about the alignment with beams and wall. I think if both ends of the island align with both ends of the window wall of base cabs, even if they jut out beyond that perpendicular wall, it could be okay. I don't like the idea of the island jutting past the wall, and then the cabinets even further out. Again, that would be kind of step-like in appearance.

I know it would cut out a lot of storage space, but if you could shorten both to end at the perpendicular wall, I think that would look best. Do you need all of that storage space?

Another option: One of our neighbors who has a similar floorplan took their kitchen cabinets all the way down the wall, into the living room, creating a very long wall of cabinetry, with a built in desk in the living room. They have a circular seating arrangement in that room. In your space, I would translate that to extending the base cabs all the way down, but ending the island at the perpendicular wall.

In terms of drawer widths, I think wider is always better. There is less wasted space, and you can always put dividers inside the drawers to separate items. Also, you can see more at once.

Either way, your space is beautiful and I can't wait to see what you do with it!


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Thanks for your thoughts maxmillion. I think I agree that the island should stay aligned with that wall. I can't line up the sink wall with it though, not because I lose storage, but because I lose counter and prep space. I also put the DW to the left of the sink because I don't want to prep in front of it. I bet your friend's room looks great with the cabinets extending further down the wall. Does she use that room as a sitting/tv room?
I tend to agree with you about the larger drawers, but never having had them, I wanted the opinion of someone who did. Thanks.


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They use it as a dining area.

I've seen another gorgeous house with a similar set up. She had cabinets all down the wall, an island in the same spot, and then a rectangular dining table for an eat-in kitchen, plus she put an extra prep sink down there. She hosted a lot of large gatherings, so I imagine the extra prep area came in handy often.

Swapping the sink and cooktop would also give you a lot more usable counter space on the island for prep.


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Maxmillion, how would swapping the sink and cooktop buy me prep space?


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if you factor in the depth of the island, there's really a lot of counter space on it. The way you have it now, I'm not sure you would use that whole half of the island behind the cooktop much. With the sink on the island, you could prep along that whole corner near the fridge. Also, I'd prefer to have the landing space for the oven near the cooktop, instead of in the prep area.

Here's what I mean for zones:


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And possible organization. I would put the cutlery and dishes in drawers. I'm not sure about having them opposite the DW. It depends how much clearance you will have between the island and the cabinets.


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RE: Help with this kitchen layout

Bellsmom wrote a long post about storage right before maxmillion's posts that I think you missed.


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I had thought of suggesting the range on the long window wall but thought you would not consider it. Here is a Houzz photo that I think is stunning. Pretty much what maxmillion was suggesting. Imagine the range and hood centered between the two beams.

I have a small window behind my range and it is not at all hard to keep clean. I absolutely love it. Wish I could have had this many windows!
Let us know if you want to consider this. I think you would love it. And it would make venting much, much simpler.

Click the link below for many more pics of ranges in front of windows.

Here is a link that might be useful: More HOUZZ pics of ranges before windows

This post was edited by Bellsmom on Mon, Sep 1, 14 at 9:53


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Oh my gosh, I am overwhelmed by the help from everyone!! Thanks for the heads up may_flowers because I did not see Bellsmom's post. It also alerted me to check my junk mail, where a lot of other posts ended up! Ok, I don't know where to start. I am inching verrry close to the "just do it " stage!

When I started this project, we were going to leave the kitchen where it was. I was simply going to move the range down from the sink under the window. So Bellsmom, I thought I had every houzz photo of ranges under windows in my ideabook. You proved me wrong. I LOVE some of those, especially the first one. But NOT walking into the kitchen from the garage has always bugged me, so I began reconfiguring to do that. Two of the main reasons I put the sink under the window was 1-to utilize the run of cabinets I already have (that also match the 66"pantry on the fridge wall), and 2- I thought keeping the plumbing along the wall would be easier than getting it to the island, since the floor joists run parallel to the sink run.
Seriously, my head feels like it's going to explode just thinking of making this change, but you and max million make good points so I'll try it on paper.
Thanks Bellsmom, for your great storage advice. As it stands now the cooktop is in a 36" drawer cab, flanked by two 26"-30" 3-4 drawer cabinets (depending on the size of the island). I only put 2-18" door cabinets at both ends of the opposite side of the island with the rest open for seating.

"It all depends on how much other efficient drawer storage you have and what you want to store on the island. Are the cabinets on the long sink wall drawer cabinets or traditional shelf cabinets with doors? Same question regarding the cabinets you will repurpose for the refrigerator wall. I am guessing they are mostly door cabs."

I only have one 24" drawer cabinet, the rest doors w/top drawer. The only thing being reused on the fridge wall is the pantry. That 57" oven cabinet is being made.

"A final comment: Where will you store dishes as you take them out of the DW? I would HATE having to store them in base cabinets and you have no wall cabs."
I have been storing all of my dishes and glassware in that pantry which previously was across the room from the dishwasher. So I am used to stacking when dry and walking them to the pantry. I'll be doing much the same thing in the new setup. I have to say I do love not having to bend for most of the things I use on a daily basis, as I'm fairly tall at 5'8".
Ok DH just came in and we discussed the range in front of the window idea. I'm going to draw it up, although maxmillion did a pretty darn good job of it! You people are AMAZING! Thank you. I'll be back with layouts.


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RE: Help with this kitchen layout

Just one question. Can you have a DW without a cabinet beside it? What is used to support the counter?


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RE: Help with this kitchen layout

Barbarav
I can't speak to the construction of a DW on the end of a cabinet run. An 8" cab there might be THE place for cookie sheets? NOT for spices.

Of course you should be able to walk into the kitchen from the garage if I am reading your plans right. And if I understand correctly, there will be a pantry along that entry hall. GREAT place for staples. If you sort them as you purchase them, they need never make it into the kitchen until you need them. You'll just drop them off in the pantry as you pass by.
Do check out the link I posted in a previously on dish drawers. In a new kitchen no way should you have to trek across the room from the DW to store dishes. A single wide middle drawer (Even you won't have to bend that far, I promise) should hold your everyday dishes.


Look at the other drawers posted in the link. They hold a TON. Glassware is another problem. I would consider a tall cab, maybe beside the ovens?, for glasses. With pullouts or drawers? Or, maybe--off the top of the head here--open shelves alongside the ovens for glassware? Pretty with light coming through them. I store our every day glasses in a single row along the back of a hutch very close to table and DW. They look pretty there. I can easily store six wine glasses and six water glasses. We seldom need more than that and always wash them by hand after each meal since they are fragile, so they don't accumulate in the DW.

Anyway, I hope you do not say "Oh, damn, I just want this DONE!."

Best luck.
Sandra

This post was edited by Bellsmom on Tue, Sep 2, 14 at 9:48


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RE: Help with this kitchen layout

In terms of locating the range & hood, don't worry too much about the ceiling being slanted - there's always a solution to that: build a soffit.

Here's a page that explains some things about soffits and has a bunch of useful photos so you can have an idea: http://www.futurofuturo.com/rangehood-FAQ-sloped-ceiling.php

Also, check out Houzz and search for "sloped ceiling", "cathedral ceiling", etc. That site has 3+ MILLION photos, you'll find plenty of ideas.

Here is a link that might be useful: Rangehood installs under a sloped ceiling


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