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Layout help - where to put sink/dishwasher and TV

Posted by sdegraff77 (My Page) on
Thu, Aug 15, 13 at 12:16

We are in the process of building a new house and I am looking for some feed back on out kitchen layout. Especially where to place the sink and TV. Total kitchen dimensions a are 16'2" along the range wall and 17'5" long. The door on the left goes to the pantry/mudroom. It is open on the right to the dining/living room.

We are a family of 6. Kids are 0,2,5 and 18. I am a SAhM. We cook a lot and the kids love to help.

We are hoping to go with minimal or no upper cabinets. We have a huge pantry off the kitchen (10x6) which will house our freezer all the food and big appliances ect.

This is a sketch my DH did of his proposed layout.
I am concerned about the TV over the sink and not sure about keeping out every day glasses in a drawer ( extras will be in the tall cabinet by the fridge)

The other option would be to swap the prep sink and main sink area......


Follow-Up Postings:

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RE: Layout help - where to put sink/dishwasher and TV

so where is the pantry to house "all the food", because if this is literally "all the food", you will have a traffic lane in/out....don't see where it is exactly. What is the long line on the bottom wall[?].....If one grabs the OJ or milk....where does that person land to pour or assemble the cereal bowl ? grab the milk, set it where?...head to the pantry to get the cereal....back to where the bowl is.....silverware drawer in middle of island??....and then head around island to sit? ....meanwhile someone is cooking eggs or pancakes and also is headed to fridge and over to pantry for cooking oil or pancake mix, and back to range. The first two things I would evaluate in your thinking is "all the food" in the walk in pantry and landing space near the all -fridge. Forget about the TV for right now.


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RE: Layout help - where to put sink/dishwasher and TV

In general, though, sink over TV seems unhealthy for TV. How does this fit into the rest of the house? A strategically placed TV on the other side of the island might make more sense...on the other hand, a room where family converges that is TVless could be a cool concept.

But yeah, what Herb said. Show us more of the house surrounding the kitchen so we know what is where, some expected traffic patterns, etc.


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RE: Layout help - where to put sink/dishwasher and TV

Hi, Sdegraff. Welcome The whole floor plan carefully to scale helps on both sides of the screen. You don't get so many impossible suggestions, for one, and people don't waste efforts on layouts that just can't fit.
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I don't see a better place for the TV if people at the island are going to watch it. I suspect if you don't actually throw water at it a TV should do okay there, but I might want to make it an inexpensive one. Really, I'm guessing the howls as the cook blocks the screen at key moments might be the biggest problem. I see no special reason to center it over the sink, BTW. You could always downplay the sink so it wasn't noticeable and do something nice with the wall instead.

Have you discarded the idea of putting cleanup on the end wall? If that counter is 9 feet plus, it would hold the stove, of course, instead.

I'm not personally crazy about the oven and microwave there because the diagonal position highlights them and neither is either handsome or at least ruggedly impressive. I'd rather attention go to the stove.


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RE: Layout help - where to put sink/dishwasher and TV

If the kitchen is open to the family room, I would concentrate on making it the TV viewing zone, and let the kitchen retain the original purpose of preparing meals. If the home is designed properly, the kitchen folks can still see the family room TV if they want to keep up with the score while popping in some more cheese balls into the oven.

We really need to see the rest of the home's layout though. A kitchen isn't isolated from it's surroundings unless it's a closed concept room.


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RE: Layout help - where to put sink/dishwasher and TV

  • Posted by buehl 7a, AHS 5/6 (MD) (My Page) on
    Fri, Aug 16, 13 at 20:18

Echoing everyone else...how does the kitchen fit/flow with the rest of the home?

One thing I noticed is that you have a lot of space and yet you have very little space, relatively, b/w the sink and range. I'd like to see at least 42' in that location. That would then give you two nice Prep Zones: Primary in the island and secondary on the perimeter b/w the sink and range.

I'm assuming the very long "line" on the bottom is a counter...is that correct? If so, I would consider making it a "Snack Center" + "Tea/Coffee/Beverage Center" with another sink (I know, 3 sinks - but this kitchen is quite large!), MW, snack/tea/coffee storage (instead of in the pantry), and mugs/glasses/snack plates storage.

Meanwhile, are these the dimensions of your kitchen?

 photo sdegraff77dimensions.jpg


[Edited to remove refrigerator comment - found it on the left wall.]

This post was edited by buehl on Fri, Aug 16, 13 at 22:30


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RE: Layout help - where to put sink/dishwasher and TV

I would second not placing a TV in the kitchen. Are you someone who likes having the TV as background noise? How important is that? It will make planning easier if you can make do with without.


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RE: Layout help - where to put sink/dishwasher and TV

Lol! "Ding Rom" (see the layout)

I can understand the desire to have a TV in the kitchen. I'm not a big TV watcher (I prefer reading by far), but there are times when I like to have the TV on - especially when cleaning up. I dislike doing dishes, but watching TV makes it bearable.

However, the location of the one in the OP is not very useful for cleaning up or even prepping and cooking. I suggest finding another place for the TV and ask you to reconsider the size of it - I think this is a case where bigger is not better.


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RE: Layout help - where to put sink/dishwasher and TV

Obviously the tv is important to her and/or her family...which is why it is included on the sketch. I think in a kitchen that size you should have no problem placing a tv somewhere. I like a small kitchen tv to be in the corner so I can listen/watch while cooking. It looks like you are trying to place it so that your family can watch from the island? If so, above the sink could be bad for the tv. Maybe a custom cabinet for it? Could the tv work in the left corner?

You will need more prep space between range and sink...I would definitely consider swapping prep and main sink.


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RE: Layout help - where to put sink/dishwasher and TV

Put the tv in the cabinet over the mw and oven...it's hard to reach anyway and would be visible from the island.

Our fridge is across from the island and we put our tv above it...up and out of the way in a place that's hard to reach, but easy to see.


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RE: Layout help - where to put sink/dishwasher and TV

Thank you everyone.
I am not home so I have included a link to another post that shows the entire main floor that I hope helps!

The TV in the family room won't be visible from the island unfortunately. And the little people like to watch cartoons while eating breakfast in the mornings and unlike to watch cooking shows while cooking so a small TV is important

Buehl- I agree I'd like to have a smaller TV in the kitchen! I am sure the one my DH sketched is out of proportion! To him bigger is better
Yes you have the dimensions right!
Love the idea of a snack or beverage center. My biggest pet peace now is DH or the kids coming to make drinks while I am trying to cook/bake! I ha originally thought that long wall would be for some storage of kids paper craft stuff/school papers laptop. But I might reconsider! If I put a sink there I might eliminate the prep sink elsewhere as really I wanted two so DH could make ice tea out of my way!

Rosie- I am not sold on placement of anything at this point. I was worried about all the wasted corner space with the corner oven too.
So would you do the wall oven beside the fridge? Or which wall would be clean up? Or move the stove to that wall or the sink? i am open to moving anything really to get better flow!
Herbflavor- I see your point. The pantry this close is a huge improvement from my current situation! So I am used to grabbing all the stuff I need and then cooking. I had considered adding some sort of pass through from the pantry to the kitchen but couldn't figure it out. I had always thought the island would be the landing spot for the fridge..... I will think about how it will all work, hearing fresh opinions really helps to challenge what I missed or just accepted based on initial drawings. and hopefully the full layout will help.

Krycek1984- yes we want it viewable from the island. I worried that having the sink and dishwasher across from the stove would cause a traffic jam there where we would all be bumping bums and doors!

Annie- that was my original thought. TV above the microwave but hubby thought the wall would look blank with no uppers and liked the idea of a good view of the TV

I really want it to be functional and pretty! Thank you everyone for your feedback and help!

Here is a link that might be useful: Main floor layout


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RE: Layout help - where to put sink/dishwasher and TV

To offer a different perspective, I think if you like to watch TV you should install the largest one that will reasonably fit in the area. We wall-mounted a 40" TV above our peninsula -- when it was in sketches everyone thought it was way too big, but now that it's installed everyone agrees it's the perfect size.

How high are you planning on mounting the TV? We mounted ours centered about eye level when standing. That could be strange for the person at the sink, if the TV is turned on. You could install it at the corner above the dishwasher, and have a fully-articulating mount - that could offset it a bit. But overall I think you're better off putting it to the left of the range, maybe in the corner where the microwave is.

You also have to think about where to put the other peripherals. If you want a clean look, and you wall mount the TV, you may want to clear out part of a cabinet for your DVR / cable box etc. Depending on what you connect you may need to have a small vent -- if the cabinet is completely enclosed, you might overheat your TV peripherals if you can't force air in and out.


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RE: Layout help - where to put sink/dishwasher and TV

Thanks Calumin!
My husband would love your opinion about TV size!
I was debating an open shelf under the tv to hold the cable box but I might consider the cabinet for a cleaner look! Good idea especially about venting it!


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RE: Layout help - where to put sink/dishwasher and TV

One more thought on the TV. You might check your building codes. When we did a remodel my husband wanted to add a TV in the masterbath. We had to change the location so that it was not with in a certain amount distance to the tub. Don't know if such things apply to sinks as well.


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RE: Layout help - where to put sink/dishwasher and TV

If the TV will work above the sink...why not? It's like a window, in a way...especially if you can put a screen saver on, of a nice outdoor picture. Kind of like the 'fireplace' pictures they use in family rooms.

For your plan, I don't like the corner oven, but I can see why it might have worked with the original island. Since you want easy access to the pantry, why not move the door closer to the work area?

You could use pocket doors and leave the pantry open to the mudroom as well, but I thought you might need more storage space. And the wall of the pantry might be a handy space for a few more hooks, to hold more items such as fun aprons for the kids?

The fridge is between the two doorways and the range is moved down, to give you more prep space between the range and the sink. Trash on left, dishwasher on right...you could add a few upper cabinets for glasses (on either side of the TV) if you decide you want them.

The island has seating for all four kids, with the table nearby if you need more space. You could have a prep sink and trash, on the island, but I would also include one on that back wall. I would put the oven/microwave, sink (a third trash area) and the beverage fridge on that wall. Great place for baking and snacks, which the kids will want to use. Just another idea :)

From Farmhouse plans



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Also

Also, I added the prep sink on the island, because you had one in your drawing...and it's a popular choice on the forum. But, if it were me, I'd keep the sink under the TV and the one on the back wall...and make the island all for snacks and baking. Maybe use another material, depending on how you decide to use the space. Best of luck with your design :)


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RE: Layout help - where to put sink/dishwasher and TV

Thank you so much lavender_lass!
Why did I never think of moving the pantry door before!!!!

We have already submitted for DP but perhaps it isn't too late to consider that change!!!

I do like that it eliminated the corner as I always find them awkward. I would probably skip the island prep sink in this layout too as I love the idea of a big open island!
I just need to figure out where I would fit kids papers/laptop in this layout.....


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RE: Layout help - where to put sink/dishwasher and TV

Would there be any space in the mudroom...maybe in that new storage area? Otherwise, I'm sure you can incorporate some of that on the back wall, with the snack area.

You might want to post about storing things on the island. I know that's come up before and you should get some great ideas!


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RE: Layout help - where to put sink/dishwasher and TV

Here's an idea. [Click on it to see it bigger]

 photo sdegraff771.jpg

This layout keeps the pantry door where it is for ease of bringing groceries in from the garage and includes a pass-through b/w the pantry and kitchen that has a door. When visiting the pantry, you can put the items for the kitchen on the pass-through counter for later retrieval in the kitchen.

In the kitchen, above the pass-through, is the TV mounted at an angle so it's visible for more people/tasks. (More later)

Cleanup Zone...

  • The Cleanup Zone is separated from the Prep and Cooking Zones.

  • Dish storage is across from the DW in the island. There are 54 inches of space for dishes, glasses, silverware.

  • The Trash pullout is contained in the Cleanup Zone.. I toyed with putting it in the island, which is a better location, but I think you need the 24" of space it would have taken from the dish storage on the end of the island more. You don't want upper cabinets, so that means your dishes, etc. will have to be stored in base cabinets.

Prep Zone...

  • You have at least two Prep Zones: Primary on the island; Secondary b/w the cleanup sink and range.

  • The island Prep Zone has much more space to work with...25" on one side and over 7 feet on the other side.

  • That 7 feet would work really well for not only large prepping projects, but also for (cookie) baking, crafts, science fair projects, school projects, wrapping gifts, etc. It's a wonderful expanse of space!

  • Both the primary and secondary Prep Zones have a water source - making them each a truly functional Prep Zone on their own w/o having to cross over into the other Prep Zone for water. As your three youngest get older and start helping, you will really appreciate having those two Prep Zones!
Cooking Zone...
  • The Cooking Zone contains the range and, on the outside, the primary MW and wall oven.

  • Both the cleanup sink and the island prep sink are close enough to the range to be used for draining pasta - choose the sink to use based on what else is going on in the kitchen.

  • It's adjacent to each Prep Zone so the cooks can easily go from the Prep Zone to the Cooking Zone w/o crossing through the Cleanup Zone, crossing the other Prep Zone, or having to go around the island.

  • The oven is located where it can be used when baking or roasting. No running around the island to put food in the oven or to check on the food or to take the food out of the oven.

Snack/Tea/Coffee/Beverage Center...

  • Snack/Tea/Coffee/Beverage Center contains a small MW for heating up snacks. I recommend a MW mounted under the upper cabinet and off the counter to keep the counter clear.

  • There is also an under counter Beverage Cooler/Refrigerator for keeping drinks and other refrigerated snacks.

  • There's plenty of storage for silverware, dishes, and mugs in the area for ease of access.

  • If you drink coffee, you could even put a coffee maker there. The sink will provide the water needed for the coffee maker.

Homework/Computer Center...

  • There is room for 3 people to use a laptop or do homework. However, you may not want three children sitting there at the same time - the bickering could get intense! But, since it is in the open, you can monitor what your children are doing on the computer. Please - do monitor, even when they reach the teenage years - it can keep them out of trouble!

  • There is a 24" tall cabinet that can be used for storing homework/school supplies, maybe a printer, craft supplies, etc.

  • The tall cab would also make a great "command center". See an example below.

Television...

  • I moved the TV. To get the most use out of it, I moved it to the corner.

  • The nice thing about this location is that you can locate the power & cable outlets in the pantry - out of the view of the kitchen. Drill a hole behind the TV and snake the power cords and cables through the wall and into the pantry.

  • Keep in mind that to be able to change channels, you will need to locate the cable/satellite box in the kitchen. A shelf or a cabinet with a glass door would work. Ditto for a DVD player.

  • So, who can "see" the TV? People sitting at the island. The person cleaning up/doing dishes. The Cook (in the Cooking Zone).

  • My DH also insisted on a TV in the kitchen when we remodeled and is both an audio- and visual-phile. So, I asked him what he thought of the TV location and he said he much preferred it in the corner where, in his case, he could watch it while doing dishes or while sitting at the island. [This also sparked a conversation in which he asked if there was any place in our kitchen that we could put a TV like yours and have it situated so conveniently! Our kitchen is much smaller than yours, though, so it has much less room for a large TV.]

  • I also like the fact that you can watch it from the range. While most people spend the least amount of time in the kitchen actually cooking, there are some things that have to be stirred constantly (like egg nog). I find those tasks very boring and it would help to be able to watch TV while stirring and stirring and stirring and....

Refrigerator...

  • I moved the refrigerator so it's closer to the DR and Living Room as well as closer to the Prep and Cooking Zones. These are the areas the refrigerator will be most used for - while prepping & cooking, while setting the table/eating (condiments, milk, etc.), and for snacking (for items not in the Snack Center).

  • It's on the periphery so it's accessible for all of the above without anyone getting in the way of someone else.

Storage...Because of the size of your kitchen, you have room for all kinds of "specialty" storage.

  • Trays, cooling racks, cookie sheets, roasting pans, etc.: Above the MW & wall oven

  • Cutting Boards: Next to the Prep Sink where they're used most often

  • Pots & Pans: Next to the range so they're close at hand for cooking

  • Small Appliances: In the corner susan. This is a great location for tall or larger items. Corner susans are full-height (no drawer above) and all items are always right in front (just rotate).

  • Dishes, Glasses, Silverware: As mentioned above, in the island right across from the DW where it's easy to put them away when unloading the DW.

  • Beverage & Snack Dishes, Mugs, etc.: In the upper cabinets in the Snack/Beverage Center.

  • School Supplies, etc.: In the tall cabinet next to the Homework/Computer Center.

  • Foodstuffs: In the pantry.

  • Seasonal/seldom used items: In the 15" deep cabinets under the island.

Miscellaneous...

  • There is room for 5 seats at the island. The overhang on each side is 15" - the minimum recommended. (Each seat needs 24" of linear space and 15" of clear knee/leg space under the overhang.)

  • There's a 60-inch aisle b/w the island and the Homework/Computer Center - that should be plenty even if people are sitting in both locations.

  • Mudroom - I recommend having a small counter area for mail and keys/purses. Because the garage entrance is here, it is most likely your family entrance. so it makes sense to have a place for keys, etc.
    • Keys could be hung on the wall on hooks or put in a basket.
    • Mail can be piled on the counter or you could have "mail slots" on the wall or on the counter for each person and/or type of mail (bills, magazines, etc.)


Zone map for above layout:
sdegraff77's Kitchen #1 - Zones photo sdegraff771Zones.jpg


Command Center/Supply Cabinet idea:
 photo sdegraff77CommandCenter.jpg


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RE: Layout help - where to put sink/dishwasher and TV

Thank you so much Beuhl!!!! What an amazing and detailed option!

I do really like the corner placement of the TV! Funny about your DH wanting to move your TV too!!

So great foul to get fresh perspectives on layout! I never considered swapping the sink and fridge!

Love love love the command center!!!

No to decide if I can live with the pantry door where it is.......!


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RE: Layout help - where to put sink/dishwasher and TV

I realy like buehl's layout.

One comment on the cable box for the TV -- instead of using an open shelf or glass door, you could use either an IR transmitter, or even better, an RF transmitter. That would let you point the remote at the TV itself, while letting you put the cable box and anything else (e.g. Apple TV) away from view. If you go the IR transmitter route, you'd mount an IR sensor either on the TV or on the wall under the TV -- you'd run a cable (along with the other TV cables) along the wall to your other devices. If you do RF, it goes through walls so you don't need to have line of sight.


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RE: Layout help - where to put sink/dishwasher and TV

Thanks Calumin! That would be a perfect suggestion! I will pass it on to the Hubby as he is the guy with all the audio video technical knowledge!!! I love the idea of it being out if sight!!


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RE: Layout help - where to put sink/dishwasher and TV

Buehl's pass through from the pantry is a great idea! I like the TV placement, as long as someone standing there prepping won't be blocking the view from the island. No one wants to miss their cartoons in the morning! LOL


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RE: Layout help - where to put sink/dishwasher and TV

So after thinking about it I am pretty sure I will regret it if I don't add a door directly to the kitchen from the pantry!!

What do you think of this rough sketch? I was trying to incorporate both lavander_lass and beuhl sketches!! I can't seem to convince DH to add a third sink!!

How does this flow work!?
What am I missing?

I realize the oven microwave is far from the action but I expect they will be used less frequently..... I put the coffee station by the fridge

I figure I could do shelves or art work along the sink wall.....


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RE: Layout help - where to put sink/dishwasher and TV

Does your DH understand that when you have stations/centers separated so much (common issue in a large kitchen), that sometimes you need an extra sink (or two)?

The presence and location of a sink is driven by layout and function, not by whim or necessarily kitchen size.

How much does your DH work in the Kitchen, particularly prepping and cooking? If he does prep or cook, does he have the issue of people getting in his way when he's trying to work? If he doesn't prep or cook much, I wonder if he realizes the issues - he may be just saying "no" b/c he doesn't understand or b/c it doesn't affect him so he doesn't see the need.... This is not a slam against your DH. It's human nature to review and make decisions based on personal experience, not the experience of others.


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RE: Layout help - where to put sink/dishwasher and TV

That is totally it Beuhl - he doesn't really cook other than the occasional quick meal for himself. He also doesn't get why I now see the entry to the pantry as an issue. Originally I just saw it as being better than our current location. But we keep everyday items in our kitchen now we won't in the new house! So walking around the corner for everything will be a pain for 3 meals a day!

I will keep working on it as i think it would be great and practical for filling the cats water too! And really like how you had that wall layer out.

Any other suggestions on layout with the door to the pantry?


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Time to Talk with your Husband

I think you're going to have to sit down and have a talk with your DH. He needs to be made to realize that since the kitchen is your primary work area, not his, he should be listening to what you have to say about the issues - pantry door, possible third sink, etc. Yes, this is b/w the two of you and isn't any of our business, but if you're remodeling a kitchen and decisions are being made and ideas vetoed by someone who doesn't get it b/c he doesn't really use the kitchen and doesn't care about function (except for the TV), then I think you're headed for problems with this remodel.

We've done three major remodels - Kitchen, finished basement, "man cave". The biggest was the kitchen. Initially, my DH was throwing his weight around vetoing things he didn't see a need for until I sat down with him and explained to him that just b/c he didn't see a need for something didn't mean there wasn't. I tried to give examples he would understand. For example, I explained that in my opinion, a large screen + projection system was overkill for the "man cave" and that I saw no need for it...BUT...I understood his need for it. Ditto for the elaborate and high-end sound system upstairs & down (I think it's a waste of $$, he doesn't). He eventually got the message and realized that he was trying to control and direct something that wasn't really for his use - it was for my use.

We finally came to the agreement that we would discuss each item but in the end, I made the final decision.

BTW...my DH does do most of the cleaning up, so I let him pick the cleanup sink and DW. I wasn't happy with the DW he chose (and still am not), but he's the one who uses it the most (and he's the one who has to re-wash the dishes & silverware when they come out dirty).

When it came to the finished basement, with the exception of the pantry & paint color, I let my husband have the final say. Ditto the man cave (including the pictures he put up!)


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