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Need help with kitchen layout!

Posted by Kathy642 (My Page) on
Tue, Aug 19, 14 at 9:45

We are completely remodeling the kitchen and adjacent living room(which will eventually be the informal dining room). The kitchen is roughly 14 x 10.

We are putting in a breakfast bar/peninsula at the beginning of the kitchen that will be 42" high with wood top and the counter on the kitchen wall by the bar will go all the way under the bar.

As of right now, the bar is only 48" long. The top will be roughly 32" wide and there will be cabinets in it on the kitchen side only.

The entrance is 36" and then on the right of the entrance there is a corner sink and between the sink base and entrance, 46" of counter with lower garbage and drawers and then upper cabinets. (Sorry about the blue lines on the photo of the layout-cabinet guy started drawing on the back).

I really don't like the fact that the bar/peninsula is only 48" long. That means we can maybe squeeze in 2 stools in front and 1? in kitchen(because of counter that goes under the bar).

I've been trying to come up with a way to do something so we could have 3 stools in front and at least 2 in the kitchen. We can't put one on the end since it's only a 36" walkway(entrance). I could possibly shorten the counter on the other side of the entrance, which would mean only having about 31" of counter there and probably losing the 15" cabinet and having a tiny drawer on bottom next to the garbage.

If I did that, I don't know if I could do a 60" bar? Would a 60" bar even fit 3 stools comfortably? Do I want to lose the counter, cabinet and drawer, or would that be ok?

I'm trying to be creative and come up with a way to do the bar so we can fit 3 stools in front and 2 in the kitchen(without taking away from entrance). There is a heat vent on the floor in front of the bar, so it can't come out from kitchen(other than the overhang). It could maybe come out to the right of the heat vent only. Not sure if it could come out to the left of it.

I am looking for ideas of what to do or if there is even anything I could do to fit the stools. Maybe a creative way of building the bar? Losing space on other side of entrance?

I will be posting more pix!

Any ideas or advice(possibly pictures of ideas?) would be appreciated. Thanks! Kathy


Follow-Up Postings:

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RE: Need help with kitchen layout!

First angle of kitchen. Can't see it, but between the 24" cabinet and 15" on right side of sink, there is a 13" cabinet.


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RE: Need help with kitchen layout!

Second angle of kitchen.


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RE: Need help with kitchen layout!

Third angle of kitchen.


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RE: Need help with kitchen layout!

Fourth angle.


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View from the top down.


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Photo after demo was done. There is a wall right to the left in picture with stairs that go up directly on other side of wall.


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RE: Need help with kitchen layout!

Photo after demo was done. There is a wall right to the left in picture with stairs that go up directly on other side of wall.


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RE: Need help with kitchen layout!

Oops! Posted last picture twice.


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RE: Need help with kitchen layout!

Did I forget to mention that the adjacent living room will eventually be the informal dining room, but until then, it will remain the living room until we can remodel other rooms and put the living/family room where our now bedroom is. Probably quite awhile until that happens.

So, that being said, the bar/peninsula will be our only table for eating, daughter's homework/school projects and whatever else for quite some time. :)


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RE: Need help with kitchen layout!

I'm not a KD, but this is what I would do: I would move the fridge to the right of where your sink is now at the end of that cabinet row, and move your sink left under the window. (Doing dishes at a window is always more pleasant than in a cramped corner. Think how it will feel to stand at that corner sink with the dishwasher open.) Instead of the range wall of cabinets, put the range where the fridge is now. Then you could put in a 6 foot long peninsula coming off the current range wall area. You could then fit 3 stools, plus have the peninsula become a work space that would be closer to your work triangle and thus be more functional than off in the corner like it is now. You'd have plenty of working counter space and could use the peninsula for buffet style serving when you entertain. You could then extend the wall cabinets on the wall that currently has the glass doored cabinets all the way down to the counter, so it looks like a built in step back cabinet and you get more cabinet storage. Keep the base cabinets there shallow to allow traffic flow.


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RE: Need help with kitchen layout!

My quick knee-jerk ideas:
this kitchen needs to a galley kitchen.

- remove the bar/peninsula by the sink
- remove the other bar
- put an island or peninsula (stuck against the wall where you have the range) with seating parallel to the fridge.
- put the sink on the island
- put the range where you have the sink, but flushed against the wall.

If there's anyway to recessed the fridge in the back wall (where you have the "hutch"), that'd be a better location for the fridge, so you don't have to walk through the work-area to get to the fridge.

can anyone help mock-up my suggestions?

thanks,
Amanda


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RE: Need help with kitchen layout!

Can you post an easier-to-read floor plan - one with graph paper? I can't even tell how big the entire kitchen is.


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RE: Need help with kitchen layout!

like this but w/out the cabinets above the peninsula/sink:

Yes, flip the range and fridge, so the range is closer to the window, fridge closer to living room.

Amanda


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RE: Need help with kitchen layout!

The first picture is a floor plan on graph paper.

Those are all great suggestions, except we want the range to be the focal point when you look into the kitchen with either the cabinets you see around it, or maybe instead a stone arch above that goes down to the counter on both sides.

The bar can't go on the opposite side(where the cabinets by the sink are because of a door in the living room that is on a log wall and is right in the corner by the kitchen wall(door goes out to front porch and can't be moved).

The fridge was right next to the entrance on the right before and we want it somewhere else to open up that area. Unfortunately, we can't recess the fridge because of log wall where the fridge is pictured and the opposite wall(with glass cabinet) is the basement wall with door to right of those cabinets(stairs to basement are behind that wall). So that's the only place we could come up with for the fridge.

With the bar where it is, we can't put the fridge on the basement wall(takes up too much space).

Also, the sink can't go under the window to the right of the fridge since I wouldn't have any counter space to the left between the fridge and sink. We can't put the sink anywhere else and putting it in the corner, gives us more cabinet/drawer space. I did like looking out the window, but now the half of the front porch by the kitchen is going to be turned into our pantry, so I'd be looking out into the pantry.

I need to figure out how to get more space with the bar(maybe something other than straight across or something with the wood top other than just straight?) to accommodate 3 stools at it and 2 in the kitchen.

Keep the suggestions coming! Thanks!


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If the stove went where the fridge is and the fridge went on same wall by living room, the stove would be either right up against the exterior wall, or an inch from the window trim to right of stove.

There wouldn't be room for the sink in between stove and fridge, because I'd have no counter space on either side of the sink and I don't want the sink in an island/peninsula.

Also, if the fridge was by the living room, how would we do cabinets on the living room wall since the fridge needs to open? if we left that part open(no wall) and put up a full wall where the bar is currently, then the first thing you see when entering the kitchen is the fridge right by the living room(eventually dining room), which I don't care for.

My husband also wants stools on both sides of peninsula so we can sit on kitchen side and see the TV.


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The first picture is a floor plan on graph paper

That may be, but its not readable.


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I'm trying to bring the floor plan on graph paper up bigger so that it is easier to see. I can get it bigger, but it won't post any bigger on here. I'll keep trying.

This post was edited by Kathy642 on Tue, Aug 19, 14 at 16:05


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I got it bigger. Not sure if easier to see it or not. As I mentioned, the cabinet guy started drawing on the back of it. That's what the blue lines are.

This post was edited by Kathy642 on Tue, Aug 19, 14 at 18:19


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Any other suggestions would be appreciated! :)


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Your elevations show windows at counter level but your pics don't. Is that just the way the windows are drawn or are you raising them to counter height?

Can any doorways or walls be moved/removed? What are you fixed features? If you shared this, I missed it.


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The two windows on the exterior wall are long and the other is above the counter.


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Thanks but you didn't answer my other questions.

Can any doorways, windows, or walls be changed? What are your fixed elements?


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The basement wall, left of the entrance, the exterior wall with the two windows and the wall with the other window stay along with all three windows and the basement door to the right of the glass cabinet(left wall).

Right now we are doing a full wall to the right of the entrance by the corner sink. There will be a counter, drawers and upper cabinets there. It will be open above the bar/peninsula which is left of the entrance.

That's how the floor plan is right now. The fridge cannot be recessed into any walls and we would like the stove to be the focal point when you look into the kitchen.


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IT looks like there is only 3' between the sink counter and the bar counter to get out of the kitchen which isn't much space - I can see alot of excuse me, excuse me, going on to get in and out of the kitchen going where?

The other small exit is between the left side of the range wall and the left wall - between the two corners of the counters is probably less than 3'. You might want to check that distance.

When you are measuring aisle distances you don't measure cabinet to cabinet but rather counter to counter and they always have an overhang of anywhere from 3/4" to 1 1/2". When your dealing with corner to corner (as between your range wall and the glass cabinet wall) then you're dealing with counter corners which can be sharp and hip-bruising if you bang into them.

It just seems that the entrance/exits into/out of the kitchen might be a little narrow for comfort.


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That sink position is not good. I'm not sure you could even stand at the sink when the dishwasher is open? If so, it would be so awkward!
I think the layout suggestions given above are really good, maybe you could mock them up to be able to visualize them better? Sometimes one needs to be able to step back and look at something fresh.


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RE: Need help with kitchen layout!

A few of the issues I see with your proposed plan have already been noted above, namely narrow entries/aisles and DW immediately adjacent to a corner sink.

I calculate that you have less than 32" between the counter corners of the basement wall run and the range wall run. Minimum recommended walkway is 36". If you have major appliances downstairs - W/D, furnace, water heater, etc - and that is your only basement access, you'll kick yourself later when those items need to be replaced. Even if you don't have appliances downstairs, moving furniture in and out will be a PITA. You risk damaging furniture and/or counters.

It is recommended that you have at least a 12" cabinet between a corner sink and a DW. This is to allow someone to stand at the sink while the DW door is open.

A 36" corner sink cab is decidedly on the small side. I have a 42" corner sink cab for a 33" top-mount sink. The next size down for a corner sink cab is 39". The only time I've seen a smaller corner sink cab is for a prep sink. I'm too tired to do the math but I think the largest sink you could fit in a 36" corner sink cab is 24" and only if you do a top-mount or opt for a apron front sink is a slightly recessed sink cab slightly, like this:

Another issue I see is that you have limited counter next to your range. You have lots of counter elsewhere but it's not where you need it.

Lastly, I don't quite fathom how you propose to add seating to the kitchen. I only see seating overhang on one side and it's definitely not long enough for 3 seats.

So here are 3 ideas for you. I kept the range on the top wall, as you stated you want this to be a focal. However, I removed the bottom wall. I also widened the existing window. Something has to give if you want to keep the range as a focal and have room for 3 seats in the kitchen. btw, you don't have to change the window if you're okay with the sink not being centered on the window.

Plan A
 photo Kathy642A.jpg

I placed counter in front of the low window to give you not only more counter next to the range but more continuous counter between sink and range. Here's what that would look like.

A GWer recently posted her remodeled kitchen with counter *and* cabinets in front of existing, low windows. It can be done.

btw, the above lay-out is a galley-style plan that would work for your kitchen. It would not give you the focal point you desire but it would work very well. I'll draw it up tomorrow.

The fridge has moved to the end of the sink run, at the outer edge of the kitchen. This puts it close to what I assume will become your DR (lower portion of drawing). It makes a more efficient path for meal prep: fridge to sink to range, no criss-crossing.

I made the sink counter run deeper to make the fridge appear less hulking.

I eliminated the glass cab/counter run in favor of 12" deep, floor to ceiling pantry cabs to make up for the limited storage in the rest of the kitchen.

I gave you an island with seating for 3, plus island storage.

Plan B
 photo Kathy642B.jpg

The perimeter stayed the same but I rotated the island to face the sink run. You still have room for 3 seats at the island, plus turning the island 90 degrees allowed me to give you full depth pull-out pantry cabs. The run is not as long - had to shorten it in order to keep an adequate aisle to the basement door - but it will still provide more storage than the pantry cabs in Plan A.

Plan B-1 has only a minor tweak.
 photo Kathy642B-2.jpg

The sink run is standard depth. That allowed for a slightly wider pull-out near the range.

Oh, what the heck, I can't sleep so I drew up a galley kitchen lay-out for you:

 photo Kathy642C.jpg

You could also swap fridge and range placement but I sensed you'd rather not have the fridge blocking view to the range.

Here is a link that might be useful: NKBA kitchen design guidelines


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RE: Need help with kitchen layout!

A couple things...I think I failed to mention that behind the sink wall is a front porch that runs the length of kitchen and now living room. The half by the kitchen is going to be turned into a walk-in pantry, so no need for a pantry in the kitchen.

We have doors outside of the house that lead to the basement. That's how we get W/D down there.

Neither my husband or I like anything(counter) in front of the low windows. We like seeing them and being able to access them. Also, my husband will not make any windows bigger, since the walls are log and it's a pain to do. Plus, new windows have been ordered.

I don't know if I mentioned, but the counter on the basement wall would only be 18 inches deep.

If the sink were under the window, that would give me very little counter between sink and fridge regardless which side of sink the fridge is on(about 9 inches). Although I wish I could have the sink under the window, I need room on both sides of it and the only way to have it by the window would be to offset the sink from the window(next to or partially under the window), which I hate. I also do not want the sink in the island.

I get the idea of having an island or peninsula facing the sink wall, but my husband is set on a 42" bar height peninsula facing out so he can sit in the kitchen and see the TV.

Also, at this point, I think my husband would insist on keeping the floor plan like it is(maybe 1 or 2 very minor changes). I really don't know if I could convince him to change everything completely, nor would he like it.

Please keep the ideas coming. Gives me a lot to think about. :)


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I forgot to mention that I noticed right away on the plans that the dishwasher was put right next to the corner sink. It is actually supposed to be switched with the drawers next to the sink and the dishwasher between the drawers and refrigerator.

Also, at one point I was considering the bar/island in the middle of the kitchen/living room wall with seating on living room side and kitchen side, having an opening on either side of bar/island, but then I realized that I do not want a fully open kitchen. I prefer a wall on one side of the entrance for more upper cabinets and to have a closed area by the sink.

I know I will have minimal counter space on either side of the stove, but considering I had nothing on either side for 15 years, it will nice to have at least 10 inches of counter on either side with a drawer on either side and cabinet under each drawer for cookie sheets, cake pans etc. on either side.

I also like the idea of anyone sitting at the "bar" most likely sitting on the living room side so that they can't really see as easily to the sink area(where dishes are etc).

I wish I could think "out of the box" and come up with a creative way of doing the "bar"(even just the bar top maybe).

This post was edited by Kathy642 on Wed, Aug 20, 14 at 9:31


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RE: Need help with kitchen layout!

Kathy - Visually, you plan is divided into chunks, with a lot of empty space in the middle. It just looks off to me.

I like Lisa's plans, even if it means going over the window.


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RE: Need help with kitchen layout!

So you're happy with the range wall.

I don't like the fridge crowding the window and people passing through when you're at the sink or stove. If it's feasible to shorten the 82" wall, I'd see if the fridge could go there with a 3/4" panel, 38" opening for fridge, another panel, and a wide corner spacer to connect it to the window run. You could gain 10"-12" for your opening into the kitchen.That gives you room to place your sink and DW, and you'd have counter space close to your range.

I would find a temporary solution for the seating. I'm not sure how you plan to seat anyone on the kitchen side without an overhang. It seems what you want is a table, so I'd have something made where one side rests on short legs on the counter, raising it to the bar height your husband wants. It could be removed when you needed to bring things through and then could be permanently removed when you remodel the dining room.


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I don't care how deep the cabinets are on the left wall - according to your floorplan on graph paper it still looks very narrow between that wall and the range wall. Please check the distance between the two corners.

I'm confused about the bar/peninsula area. Are you going to be sitting in the kitchen at the peninsula and looking out? In your elevation drawings you have cabinets under there so how will you sit there? I'm confused.

And if you have 18" deep cabinets along the left wall that then turn at the corner into 24" deep cabinets with a 42" high bar top - that makes my "technical" head spin to even contemplate. That is just wrong on so many levels. `If nothing else leave it all counter height.

Your daughter can't do school projects on a bar top.

What is the split in cooking and clean=up chores between you and your DH now and in the future in the kitchen.

People here are trying to help but there are a heck of a lot of road blocks to a good functioning plan.


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You ask for ideas but so far you have rejected all suggestions. As blfenton wrote, "...there are a heck of a lot of road blocks to a good functioning plan." I will be blunt; I'm really not sure what else we can do to help you because you have a large degree of inflexibility regarding what you are willing or able to change. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that - it's your kitchen, after all, not ours - but it severely limits workable changes to your current plan. Please don't read what I'm writing as rude, that is not my intent at all. My intent is to clearly state the issues I see with your current plan and the difficulty we GWers are facing in offering suggestions to you. If there's anything you're willing to give on, please let us know.

I calculated the corner to corner distance between range wall counter and basement wall counter based on 15" deep cabinets on the basement wall. If they are 18" deep with a 1.5" counter overhang on both cab runs, that distance shrinks from about 31" to 27". That is *not* workable. You would need to remove 18" of cabinets closest to the basement door in order to get nearly 38" between counter corners and I strongly encourage you to do that. Even if you have another entrance to the basement, I'm assuming you'll be carrying laun*dry bas*kets through this entrance; you'd need to turn sideways in order to get past the counters without banging into them. (I know because I currently have a doorway that narrow.)

A 42" bar top is not going to prevent people from seeing any kitchen messes, especially if they're sitting at it. And if that bar top is meant to have people seated on each side of it, a 12" counter is not deep enough. You'd basically be trying to have people share the same bit of counter for their plates and glasses. And as blfenton pointed out, a 12" deep counter is inadequate for your daughter to work on school projects.

PS Remodeling a log cabin, wow! Challenging but (hopefully) fun, too. Good luck!

This post was edited by lisa_a on Wed, Aug 20, 14 at 12:27


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I'm not sure of the distance between the corner of the counter on the basement wall and the counter next to the stove. I'll have to check that. The cabinets under the bar would be 12" deep with 12" overhang on outside and 10"? overhang in kitchen with the 18" deep counter(on basement wall) going under(I think attaching to) the bar. So yes, there would be a bit less space for seating on the kitchen side. If I could shorten the 82" wall on right of entrance, possibly the bar could be longer. I don't know if my husband would go for putting the fridge on the 82" wall so then the sink could be under the window. I think doing that would take away from lower and upper cabinets and drawers.

This post was edited by Kathy642 on Wed, Aug 20, 14 at 12:52


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RE: Need help with kitchen layout!

How much do you remember from your math classes? To calculate the distance between those counters, you need to use Pythagoras' Theorem (see link). Unless there's an error on your drawing, I'm quite sure that my calculation is accurate to within an inch or so.

Here is a link that might be useful: Pythagoras' Theorem


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You'll have two drawer banks and wall cabs on the window wall and lose the 9" pullout, which doesn't hold much anyway. Or put the pullout on the fridge wall and keep the 82" wall. Whichever, the fridge is better on that wall than standing in a corner doing dishes.

A 34" counter will look very odd balanced on 12" base cabs--24" base cabs even look too narrow. Just eliminate the cabs and don't do a permanent peninsula. Your small kitchen can't function as a kitchen, dining room, and a living room for TV viewing.


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We really want the 42" bar, whether it's a peninsula connected to the wall or away from the wall with an opening to the kitchen to the left of it. I can't figure out how the whole kitchen should lay out if the fridge was on the 82" wall. I had it there before with a row of 14" cabinets to the left and had a blind cabinet(HATED IT!), sink under window and 2 top drawers to left of sink with big double cabinet below the 2 drawers. I had a double cabinet and a small single above to left of sink, a 16" drawer to the right of the sink with a double cabinet above and a double above to left of fridge(L) above 14" drawers, with cabinet above the fridge.

We wanted to move the fridge out of the way as much as possible and open up the 82" wall, rather than having a fridge stick out immediately to the right of the entrance. That's why we put the fridge in the corner by the window.

BTW, the fridge will stick out at least 10"-12" no matter where it is, since it can't be recessed and we don't want CD.

That's all I've had for 15+ years, along with a baker's rack on basement wall and a 42" round table in front of it which was very crowded. The stove stood alone between the 2 windows with no counters/cabinets. Anything will be better than what I had as long as I have more than what I had.

If someone could please show me how I could have at least the same amount of cabinet and drawer space(or more) as the plans with the sink under the window and the fridge on the 82" wall, I'd appreciate it, because I come up with more cabinets/drawers if the fridge is in the corner and have a corner sink, than I do with the sink under the window. Keep in mind, my husband really wants the stove between the 2 windows and no counters/cabinets in front of the 2 windows. Thanks! :)


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may flowers, what do you mean by a wide corner spacer to connect the fridge on the 82" wall to the window run? Do you mean an L with blind corner cabinet?


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I would suggest you draw it out on graph paper and decide what is acceptable to you and your husband.

You could try this and see if it's doable in your space-- put a full-height 8" deep cabinet along the side of the fridge that opens into the entryway, and that would soften the large fridge side. My pullout pantry has a 10 1/4" door, but the shelf width is only 8", so the side pantry saves a few inches while giving you a full shallow pantry for canned and boxed groceries. You'll need a filler between the fridge and the corner, or perhaps you could put a Susan in the corner with a door opening alongside the fridge. I don't know much about Susans and their required door openings. I think 12" is the minimum. Or you could use a Magic Corner or Hafele corner unit, which I believe requires a 15" opening.

On the 137" window wall, you need 36" for the sink base and 24" for the DW, which leaves you ~77" for drawers.

The problem with cabinets and counter on the inside wall with the attached peninsula is it sets this very tight layout in stone. I can't think of a purpose for an 18" counter far from a water source. Doesn't work for prep or as a beverage center. I can't see any aesthetic advantage to a built-in peninsula with 12" cabinets underneath.

So one idea is to use shallow pantry cabs like Lisa's, but use two cabinets, leaving room for the bar height table with one end pushed against the wall. When you do the future remodel, remove the table and add another pantry cabinet in its place. You'll only need to replace crown molding--no counters to rip out. The bar stools will hide somewhat that it isn't built in.


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"may flowers, what do you mean by a wide corner spacer to connect the fridge on the 82" wall to the window run? Do you mean an L with blind corner cabinet?"

An L, but with a corner filler, required to open perpendicular drawers. Fillers are usually 3", but I was thinking about going as wide as 6". I'm trying to keep the fridge from being crammed into the corner while still shortening the 82" wall. I am allowing 3/4" for a side panel and a 38" fridge opening.

But I'd investigate using a corner Susan or Magic Corner as I mentioned above. If you don't utilize the blind corner with a pullout unit or Susan, you'll be able to use a larger drawer base in the corner of the L on the window wall. But the 12' or 15" base door opening on the fridge wall would give the fridge some breathing room.


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Basically what I had before, but I had a cabinet on sink wall to access the blind cabinet and a row of 14" drawers on the 82" wall with fridge directly next to those drawers. My now fridge(getting new bigger one) is only 19 cu ft and with it there, there was about a 39" entrance.

With a bigger fridge, unless I make the 14" drawers much narrower, the new fridge will take up too much room there. I'd barely fit a 36" entrance with much narrower drawers to the left of fridge, and the fridge is going to really stick out into the room there. It would be exactly the same layout there as I had before, but with a bigger fridge taking up more room and sticking out 6 inches more than the one now which was already 5 inches out from the counter.

Plus, we would like to get away from having a hidden corner on the left of the fridge where the L was. When the L turned next to the fridge we only had about 16"-18" of counter on left of the fridge. One thing I did like about a corner sink is that I would have counter space under the window with no cabinets right above the counter, so it would be very open there and all counter to the right to open it up and not have a fridge sticking out there.

The basement wall with the 18" base cabinets would be for the microwave and give a bit of extra counter to set things, such as my set of 4 canisters, giving me more work space on the counters by the sink.

Although I agree, it's not ideal to have the fridge in the corner by the window, it gets the fridge out of the way, opening up the rest of the kitchen. As to someone walking through to get to the fridge while I'm at the stove or sink, I'm the only one in the kitchen. My daughter might help get something out of the fridge for dinner, but otherwise, very rarely, if ever, would anyone be going to the fridge while I'm at the stove or sink.

I do completely agree about the fridge crowding the window and that not exactly being the most ideal spot for it, but I can't see how anything would be any different than what we had before if the fridge was on the 82" wall. I think the only difference would be a narrower entrance(since fridge will be 6" wider) and the fridge is going to stick out around 10"-12" from the counter, instead of 4-5" like our current one.

I think no matter what, my husband is quite stuck on having the peninsula, so I need to come up with something to make it longer or move it out from the wall. Regardless, of what is done with it, he will want seating on both sides no matter what. The overhang may have to shorten on the kitchen side, but it's just the 3 of us most of the time and I don't think we'd mind the overhang a bit shorter. We really need the extra storage under it for things we don't use often, and since we don't want the bar/peninsula coming any further into the kitchen, giving us no room for anything on basement wall, that's why the 12" deep cabinets under it.

Thanks for all the suggestions, and please keep them coming! The more, the better! :)

This post was edited by Kathy642 on Thu, Aug 21, 14 at 8:26


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So it sounds like the range wall and peninsula wall is set. You'll need 24" deep base cabs under the peninsula. You still want a longer peninsula. What was your objection to putting the fridge against the window wall as in Lisa's plans and leaving just a stub wall to hide the fridge from the front door?

This post was edited by may_flowers on Thu, Aug 21, 14 at 10:09


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RE: Need help with kitchen layout!

Do you mean with the sink under the window and the fridge to the right of it? I would have no counter space between the sink and fridge and my upper and lower cabinets to right of sink and on 82" wall would be gone in order to have the fridge to right of sink and be able to open it.

Even though I'd gain upper cabinets to left of sink, because of dishwasher I'd have only one bank of drawers next to DW. I'd lose a wall of uppers and at least 1-2 banks of drawers and counter space. Where would my garbage go? If it went next to the DW, I'd really have no drawers.

Wish I could just have a designer actually come in and look at it, give me 1-2 options of what would work best and be done! The cabinet guy is not a designer, so he can only do so much and just figure out cabinets that will fit in our design.

Unfortunately, none of us, including the cabinet guy, realized the narrow space between the corner of the 18" cabinets and stove cabinets is on the layout, among other things all of you are mentioning. This is driving me crazy!

I even looked again at putting the fridge on the basement wall with a wall between LR and kitchen, just enough to go past fridge and tried to see if peninsula could somehow go near the door on the other side(leaving room for door to open), but I'm not coming up with anything that works!

Too bad nobody lives near me(probably not-West Bend, Wisconsin) to come over and actually see it to give advice!

Any other thoughts? My head is just spinning! I need an asprin! :)


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RE: Need help with kitchen layout!

You'd put the DW between the fridge and sink and you'd have a large bank of drawers to the left of the sink and two sets of uppers. You don't have room for a separate trash cabinet. You can modify the sink cab for a pull-out trash attached to one of the doors. You'd need a 36" sink cab to also fit the garbage disposal. As Lisa explained, you'll only have a 24" sink with your corner sink plan, so you'd get a nice big sink in a 36" base. At least that is one advantage FOR the cook--you!

"Regardless, of what is done with it, he will want seating on both sides no matter what. The overhang may have to shorten on the kitchen side, but it's just the 3 of us most of the time and I don't think we'd mind the overhang a bit shorter. We really need the extra storage under it for things we don't use often, and since we don't want the bar/peninsula coming any further into the kitchen, giving us no room for anything on basement wall, that's why the 12" deep cabinets under it."

I hope Lisa or someone with KD skills comments on this. But I'm pretty sure that you can't put 12" cabinets on the floor and then put a 32" countertop on top and have those 12" support it. What you want and what is possible are two different things. If you put 24" cabinets under the peninsula, at least you'll have extra storage.

There was also one other point you made--putting a stone arch over the range so that it comes down to the counter. Please don't consider that. That sounds like a guy thing, and your DH already has his impossible TV viewing peninsula, so that's all he gets. :P

I hope you can see that you want your kitchen to do too many things at once and something has to give. Don't solve one problem only to create three more. You keep asking for more suggestions, but it doesn't get much better than Lisa for a fresh look at a space.


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RE: Need help with kitchen layout!

The problem is that you have your heart set on too many things that limit your options and make your space not work as well. You need to pick on of those as your hill to die on, and release yourself from the others to see what can be come up with.

For example, I understand wanting the range to be a focal point between the windows. However, with the peninsula and the 82" wall blocking that sightline, it with be mostly hidden from view. You insist on the peninsula, but it can't seat the number of people you'd like it to, because you don't have room unless you remove or shorten the 82" wall, but you say you want the kitchen to remain fairly closed off.

Something's gotta give and you and your DH need to sit down and have a real heart to heart about what.


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RE: Need help with kitchen layout!

If the fridge was to the right of the sink, DW wouldn't fit between sink and fridge. Fridge would barely have enough room next to the sink with no room(9"-10" maybe less) btwn sink and fridge.

If fridge was on 82" wall and DW to right of sink, DW wouldn't open with fridge sticking out. I'm thinking of how things were before with L shape in that corner with smaller fridge on 82" wall. DW would not have fit there with the smaller fridge, so it definitely won't with a bigger fridge, even if fridge was right next to the entrance.

Also, the 82" wall is actually a lot shorter if there is a 24" counter on the right side of the sink all the way to the wall, in case anyone didn't realize, which would make the 82" wall actually about 58" or less.

Just an FYI, my cabinet guy who is really good and highly recommended by some of his other customers and a couple other cabinet makers/carpenters(We've seen his work and specifics of how he builds things), insisted that he's done many corner sinks and has built 32"-33" for 30" wide(long?) drop-in and undermount sinks.

I don't know exactly how he does it, but it works, there's plenty of room for the sink and it is done right. Amazing, since the base cabinet should be 42", but I guess he's just that good! If quite a few people have told us he's one of the best around here, it must be true. Design wise of overall kitchen, not so sure(not seeing that the path between the 18" counter and stove is too narrow etc.), but building and designing cabinets, EXCELLENT!

That doesn't mean I'm going with a corner sink, but with the sink under the window, no matter where the fridge and DW would go, I would still have more cabinet/drawer and counter space on that side of the room with a corner sink.

Now with so many ideas to look at, I'm really going to have to see how to make this work better.

Thanks to everyone for all the ideas and advice! I'll be checking back in case anyone comes up with anything more.
Oh yea, if anyone has seen any creatively designed bars/peninsulas/islands with a different shape that could work(maybe some sort of angles to it or part of it coming out more in LR on one side?), please let me know.

Once again, Thanks everyone! I'll let you know my final outcome....If it ever happens! lol :)

This post was edited by Kathy642 on Thu, Aug 21, 14 at 12:47


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RE: Need help with kitchen layout!

"we want the range to be the focal point when you look into the kitchen"

Could you please post a picture of this fabulous range that you're designing around?

Love seeing what inspires people and their designs.

Mine was a ~20feet long wall of windows, so I had to sacrifice storage (but I have 3 pantries so I was okay w/ giving up upper cabinets that I rarely use).

Amanda


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RE: Need help with kitchen layout!

Kitchen before if anyone is interested. :)


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Old kitchen photo #2


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Old kitchen photo #3


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Old kitchen photo #4


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Old kitchen photo #4


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Oops! Posted same photo twice. Sorry!


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RE: Need help with kitchen layout!

Old kitchen photo #5


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Old kitchen photo #6


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RE: Need help with kitchen layout!

We haven't picked out the stove yet, but we know we want a gas stove which will have the cast iron grates and then either hood that shows with cabinets coming down on sides of hood, or fake cabinet above to hide small hood with cabinet coming down on either side(spice cabinets), or we may do a stone arch around it that would come all the way down to the counters on either side and would hide the hood. :)


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RE: Need help with kitchen layout!

How about a photo from further out in the living room to show the full wall and entrance to the kitchen?


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RE: Need help with kitchen layout!

Kathy642 - somewhat off topic - you mention your cabinetmaker being highly recommended. Could you provide his info as I'm not too far from West Bend :). Thanks!


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RE: Need help with kitchen layout!

I have used a corner sink and didn't like it at all. In order to get the full sized sink to fit, it was necessary to place it further back from the edge of the counter. It meant when washing dishes, or whatever, you had to lean in more than you would with a sink placed on the straight edged counter. It killed my back.
When we were in the planning stages of our kitchen, we had to make priorities and compromises. We did not get everything we wanted. I find your fixation on a bar puzzling. If it is in order to watch the television, why don't you buy a small television for the kitchen and put it in an out of the way place. I would also reconsider your not wanting to put a counter in front of the low window. I have seen several inventive and lovely photos of kitchens where it was necessary to go in front of the low windows.
I really like Lisa's ideas for your kitchen. She always gives thoughtful plans which in my opinion are very functional.


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RE: Need help with kitchen layout!

Ellen1234, his name is Keith Herman, owner of Custom Fit Carpentry.
His Ph#262-483-1125.

As for why we want the bar, we like the idea of opening up part of the kitchen and we both really like the idea of a 42" bar to sit at. It's not just to watch TV. Also, it will be quite some time before the living room turns into the dining room, since there are other rooms that need remodeling first to move the living room/family room somewhere else.

Even when we finally turn it into the dining room with a table, we still like the idea of having the bar/peninsula as well as a table.

Our windows are 26" off the floor with very deep window sills that we do not want to block. Having counter in front of the windows, would not only block the window sills, which are unique to our home(log home built in 1842) and we want to be able to see, but would block a great deal of the lower part of the windows which gives us so much light.

Our cabinet guy also said the sink would not be set back to fit it. It would be the normal distance from the front, so no reaching(no backache). I would be interested in seeing if anyone could come up with the same or more drawers and cabinets than what's on the plan, if the sink went under the window, because I keep coming up with less. I come up with the DW and one bank of drawers to left of sink and one set of drawers or a drawer(small 16") and lower cabinet, then L and small bank of drawers and fridge on 82" wall. I can get bigger drawers, plus drawers or a pull out to left of fridge if things stay the way the plans are.

If there were a way to have the sink under the window, take the fridge out of the corner(but not on the 82" wall where it would take up too much space and really stick out), still have as many cabinets/drawers and as much or more counter space, I can't come up with it. I'm stumped! :)


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RE: Need help with kitchen layout!

With 53" between corner and sink, you should have room for a fridge and a trash pull-out to the right of your sink. My Rev-a-Shelf top-mount trash is in a 13 1/2" cabinet. I think 53" is doable with a 38" fridge opening and the required end panels. Then you can put your DW and drawer base to the left of the sink. Also, you said you have a pantry on the porch, so why spend $1000 for the 9" pull-out that eats up some of your counter space?

Another thing you might consider is that with the range as a focal point, your full-depth fridge will hog the other side of the window and ruin the effect of a feature wall. Put some breathing room around the range and the two lovely windows with a counter and cabinets in the corner. In the other corner, the fridge is out of the line of sight of the LR. The stone arch will be too much on that wall, and you can't afford to give up any part of your 10" wide counters to have them resting on them. Keep it simple.


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RE: Need help with kitchen layout!

What looks to be 53" to the right of the sink, I believe with the wall up, will only be 40". If the fridge went there, then nothing could go on the 82" wall if I want to be able to open the fridge. I'd lose all of that cabinet/drawer and counter space. Plus, there would be no counter space between the sink and fridge.

When you say put a counter and cabinets in the corner by the window, you mean to left of the sink like a had before, right?

This post was edited by Kathy642 on Thu, Aug 21, 14 at 17:53


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RE: Need help with kitchen layout!

Your layout shows 53" from inside the wall to the window. If you want to extend the peninsula, the 82" wall has to go. So you put the fridge on the 53" portion of the wall. You shorten the 82" wall to the depth of the fridge. You have ~14" between sink and fridge for a trash cab. Yes, you'll lose those cabinets along with the wall, but you don't create a bunch of other problems.

Or do one of Lisa's island plans and put a TV in the cabinet over the fridge.


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RE: Need help with kitchen layout!

I was just looking at your layout again and have a question - where will the entry point to the future pantry be?


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RE: Need help with kitchen layout!

You've been given lots of feedback about the issues with your current kitchen.

may_flowers wrote, "...your full-depth fridge will hog the other side of the window and ruin the effect of a feature wall." I concur completely! And please, whatever you do, do *not* put an arch over the range with the sides coming down to the counter. It would be an out-of-scale treatment for a 30" range, plus you'd lose more of the little bit of counter you have on each side of your range. It also doesn't jive with log cabin style, IMO.

I'm also very curious to know how your cab guy proposes to put a full size sink in a 36" or 39" sink cab, especially an undermount sink. My 42" sink cab sides are notched to accommodate my 33" top mount sink. Not a recommended practice since it weakens the cab box (I didn't know better at the time). I think you should check with your counter fabricator and plumber to make sure what your cab guy is recommending doesn't cause issues for other trades.

You've been given many suggestions to improve your kitchen's plan and you continue to balk at all of them.

And yet I'm giving you 3 more ideas. ;-)

The first is a peninsula plan with bar height counter. It's a modified G-layout. Fridge and range are where you placed them in your plan. DW next to fridge, corner sink in a 42" corner sink cab with a 30" sink.

 photo Kathy642D.jpg

You'll notice this plan also eliminates corner cabinets, which means you make the best use of all available cabinet space.

The green rectangle above the DW denotes open shelving in front of the window, like this:

and this:

By chance, both of the above kitchens have cabs and counters in front of low windows. Like I wrote earlier, it can be done but I understand your reluctance to do so.

Since you wrote that this window looks out in what will be your pantry, I assumed there's no view and it wouldn't be an issue to cover the window with open shelving. In fact, it will camouflage the view into the pantry.

The blue on the peninsula denotes a 42" high counter. Seating overhang is 12" on all sides, the minimum recommended for 42" high counters. Yes, you can go less but since this will be your primary eating spot for a long time, I recommend you do at least the minimum so that it's comfortable seating.

Plan D-1 has only a slight change to Plan D. The peninsula counter is all the same height. I increased the seating overhang to 15", the minimum recommended for 36" high counters.

 photo Kathy642D-1.jpg

Lastly, Plan E.

 photo Kathy642E.jpg

This is a revision of an earlier plan I proposed. I *know* you said you were stuck on a peninsula plan but an island gives you a more workable lay-out, plus more storage and *no* corner cabinets.

The range and fridge are where you had placed them. The sink cab is just off the window. Once again, I added open shelves in front of the window to give you more upper storage space.

I added two shallow walls at each lower end of your kitchen to help frame the view to the range wall better.

As someone suggested above, I added a small TV to the kitchen for hubby's viewing pleasure.

You could also do this set-up for MW and TV,

I would put the TV on a rotating mounting arm so it cab be directed towards the viewer's position.

Be sure to spec 28.5" deep cabs with deeper drawers than standard for the sink run to make the most of your space. The counters will be 30" deep with 1.5" counter overhang and will dead-end into the fridge cab's side.

btw, I think your cab guy forgot to add a spacer between the wall and the pull-out cab next to the fridge. Unless you have *no* molding around the window, you should have a spacer here so that you can pull the cab out without knocking into window molding. (A few GWers have learned that necessary design requirement after the fact, not a good situation.) I caught that omission and added a spacer there to the last plan.

PS Just got to say thanks for the praise my fellow GWers have given for my plans and ideas. Made my day!


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RE: Need help with kitchen layout!

Oh my, Lisa such a timely post and great suggestions! I started one yesterday to suggest what you have as your last plan. There's no point for me to post my very long dialog, but I was hoping to point out to the OP that a visit to the New to Kitchens sticky to mull over prioritizing, form, and function would be good background for all of the suggestions.

Kathy, typically, informal dining is very integrated with the kitchen space. By keeping your doorway as is, it becomes a barrier to the function you seek. I would hate to go from the sink through two doors to retrieve pantry items. Your current layout creates traffic and cooking nightmares. This seems a shame with a gut remodel. It just seems like you're going about this backwards, thinking anything is better than your current, poor situation.

If you were open to altering the opening to the kitchen as Lisa suggests, you could have a very functional kitchen with good traffic patterns, seating and storage. And with the range as a focused focal point.

The picture I've linked to is just one example of how you can achieve room separation. You could close the open space as in Lisa's last plan and have built-in shelves on either side of the walls.

I hope you seriously consider Lisa's last offerings.

Here is a link that might be useful: Wall opening example


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RE: Need help with kitchen layout!

I will absolutely look at everything more closely and discuss it with my husband, Lisa, thank you for all the great plans you did. They are all great, I just need to really look at them all carefully. Thanks to everyone else that also gave suggestions. I will take all suggestions from everyone and really take time to go through them all to see what will work. Thanks to all! :)

This post was edited by Kathy642 on Thu, Aug 21, 14 at 21:54


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RE: Need help with kitchen layout!

One question, I believe I've brought up before, but don't think was answered. How can I put the fridge to the right of the sink if there would be very little counter btwn sink and fridge?


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RE: Need help with kitchen layout!

Using the info Lisa posted for you, 6" filler/pullout, 39" for fridge, and a 30" sink cab under the window leaves only 9" between the fridge and sink. It would give you 54" of uninterrupted counter to the left and if you chose the island configuration, additional landing space there. You'd be able to prep near the range while DH and DD are at the island.


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RE: Need help with kitchen layout!

With plan E, just flip the sink wall. The sink isn't under the window, so it would move closer to the range, a bonus. There's a 3" filler in that plan between the fridge and the wall. I believe with it next to the entry wall, you could build the wall to the depth of the fridge and it would open further w/o needing the 6" pullout.


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RE: Need help with kitchen layout!

One thing I want to mention that I thought of when you first asked for help a few months ago, think of the future, not just the current.

I don't know how old your daughter is and if she likes to help in the kitchen but when you originally posted the thread I linked below, my first thought was a low bench seat in front of one of the windows.

It wouldn't obstruct the view/light from the windows at all but it would leave a nice area for a little one to sit/stand and talk to you or help you while cooking.

Also wanted to mention, no offense to the amazing DHs out there, but if you do virtually all the cooking and cleaning then his vote really should come last.

He may want it to "look" a certain way but you are the one having to actually USE it every day so your function over his form should take precedence.

I know you've been using a crappy kitchen for a while now so at this point ANYTHING seems better but really, with a total gut job, you should get a kitchen that is AMAZING, not a kitchen that's "so much better than the last one" until a few years from now when you realize all the flaws in it and wish you could get a do-over.

I strongly encourage you to approach it from a "blank slate" position. Right now you are approaching it from the, "you've stared at it for a long time and this is the best modification you can come up with" position. But you are lucky!!!! You LITERALLY have a blank slate, you ONLY have walls and doors to worry about.

Try to forget your old kitchen completely and approach it is a blank square with windows and doors and design it for FUNCTION around that.

Here is a link that might be useful: your original post


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RE: Need help with kitchen layout!

Here's a plan with the fridge flipped to the bottom end of the kitchen.

 photo Kathy642F-1.jpg

As with Plans D, D-1 and E, I suggest open shelving in front of the window.

Putting the fridge at the outer end of the kitchen means that anyone wanting to grab a drink out of the fridge can do so without crossing into the kitchen. It also means no criss-crossing during meal prep: fridge to sink to range order is good.

Losing the 6" pull-out pantry gains you more drawer space. Since you have a walk-in pantry elsewhere, I think that's a plus, especially since a 6" pull-out pantry can only store narrow items, likely no greater in diameter than 3.5". (6" is the cab width, you lose at a minimum 1.5" from that for the cab sides - assuming 3/4" construction - plus about a half inch for opening clearance and then you lose another 3/4 or so to the sides of the pull-out itself.)

Texas_Gem raises a very valid point: your daughter could very likely want to be your kitchen helper very soon. Better yet, she may want to learn how to cook meals on her own. That's how it was with my oldest son and I never would have predicted that when he was quite young.


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RE: Need help with kitchen layout!

Here are two more suggestions for you.

Both of these move the DW to the other side of the sink and put the sink under the window. The only difference between the two is that I removed the wall next to the fridge in Plan G-1 in order to get a slightly larger cab between fridge and sink.

 photo Kathy642G.jpg

 photo Kathy642G-1.jpg


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RE: Need help with kitchen layout!

I guess I failed to mention that my daughter is 12 and never liked helping in the kitchen. She will help only if I really need her.

Also, the plans are drawn with specs all the way to the log walls, not taking into consideration the walls going up in front of some of the log walls which takes away space. Along with door and window trim. I measured adding trim and a few inches for walls and numbers are way different. Dimensions will be much different and every number on the plan will shrink(possibly a lot). Apparently that wasn't taken into consideration when the plans were drawn up.

So, as I've tried to say before, I know for a fact the plans are wrong and there will only be 41"-42" to the right of the sink. Barely enough room for a fridge, and will it open against a wall?

So, as much as I would like to consider putting the fridge to the right of the sink, if the fridge alone(w/o garbage), will have to be up to the sink with only a couple inches to spare in order to open the fridge(which may not open enough next to the wall to access crisper drawers and get them out), I don't see how it could go there.

Also, when I want to slide the fridge out to clean behind it, or because I want to get the drawers out to clean(probably won't come out unless away from wall), would there be enough room to slide it out, open it all the way and get the drawers out? Or move it out enough to get behind and under to clean, if the bar/island is right there?


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The wall next to the fridge in all of Lisa's plans that have it "below" the sink would not be long enough to block the doors of the fridge from opening completely. It would only be deep enough to block the box of the fridge. But I prefer gaining a few inches by just using cabinetry around the fridge. I made the end panel of my fridge a decorative cook book rack. Some people have put artwork or a chalk board on there's. Here's mine:

 photo DSCN2193_zps352ec2b0.jpg


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RE: Need help with kitchen layout!

Nevermind. Will return to thread when all the information is accurate.

This post was edited by may_flowers on Fri, Aug 22, 14 at 10:31


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RE: Need help with kitchen layout!

Controfreakecs' pic brings to mind an earlier thought. Since fridge is at the entryway, have cabmaker design something useful for entry or LR use instead of kitchen use. But it has to be kept shallow--hooks for jackets, leashes, phone charger etc.


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RE: Need help with kitchen layout!

Wouldn't it look weird to have the sink next to or partially under the window to the left?

Also, remember the fridge will be sticking out about 12" from the counter since it cannot be recessed. I hate that, but neither of us want a counter depth(less room & more expensive). It will have wood around it, but still it will be out 12".

I don't think the bar/island/peninsula(whatever you want to call it), will give me anymore counter space for a couple reasons. Due to plumbing where it is, which could only be moved to corner(for a corner sink) or stay where it is under window(maybe move slightly one way or the other on that wall), the sink couldn't go in island/peninsula, nor could the DW. That would take away my cabinets in peninsula also which I need. It wouldn't work for sink or extra counter space anyway if it's 42" high, which we both want.

Also, by putting the fridge to the right of the sink/window, although I'd have a little storage in peninsula, I'm still losing a lot of upper cabinets and counter(which I desperately need both of). Yes, I'd get some cabinets on the left of the window, but not near as much. Plus, without counter on 82" wall, where are all my drawers? Especially if I have to shorten the counter on basement wall to have wider walkway to basement and lose drawer/counter space there.

As of right now, yes, I need to figure out the peninsula/bar, but I'm really focused on the sink and fridge, since it really shouldn't be in the corner by the window, if possible. I just don't see it working anywhere else. To the right of the sink would be nice, but I'd lose so much cabinet/drawer and counter that I need.

With the fridge to right of the window, like I said before, I don't know if I'd like the sink to left of window or partially under it(looks odd-should be lined up with window). If I could put the fridge somewhere other than the corner(left of sink), it wouldn't stick out too far and still have the storage and counter I need, I would absolutely move it, but I just don't see how.

I understand that the peninsula we want should change to an island, but my husband won't budge on the 42" high peninsula with seating on both sides. I really want it too. I realize that causes issues, but for now, as I said, I'm just thinking of how to do the sink, fridge, DW and still have the storage & counter space.

I think the walls really need to be up everywhere, except the front(entrance) side(since we are undecided what to do there), so we can take exact measurements, which would really help, since I know the measurements on the plan are way off(walls/trim were not considered when cabinet guy measured).


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"Also, remember the fridge will be sticking out about 12" from the counter since it cannot be recessed. I hate that, but neither of us want a counter depth(less room & more expensive). It will have wood around it, but still it will be out 12"."

It seems you didn't notice that Lisa said she increased the counter to 30" on the sink wall. I would kill for a 30" deep counter!

"I think the walls really need to be up everywhere, except the front(entrance) side(since we are undecided what to do there), so we can take exact measurements, which would really help, since I know the measurements on the plan are way off(walls/trim were not considered when cabinet guy measured)."

Yes. And until then, everyone is just spitting in the wind. I seriously doubt that you even have room for the fridge to the left of the window as drawn by your cabmaker--1" filler, 6" pantry, 38" fridge opening--45". Along with those 12" peninsula base cabinets and not giving you enough passage room near the stove, I'd have serious reservations.


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RE: Need help with kitchen layout!

Come back when you have accurate measurements because in kitchen design every 1/4" counts.

Right now, this really is a waste of everyone's time, including yours and your cabinet makers.

I think it's obvious that people want to help you, but without proper measurements it's impossible.


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RE: Need help with kitchen layout!

Again, thanks to everyone for the advice/ideas/layouts! It gives me a great deal to look at and helps me see the things that are not right and what needs to change. I will come back once the walls are up and I have exact measurements for the walls! :)


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RE: Need help with kitchen layout!

controlfreakecs, I love your cookbook display on the side of your fridge! If you did a reveal, I completely missed it.

Kathy642, I wish you well with your remodel, I really do, but I am bowing out of helping you. You have been given many helpful suggestions from everyone and the flaws with your kitchen plan have been pointed out multiple times. But you choose not to heed any advice. As I wrote earlier, that's your choice since it's your kitchen.

Best of luck!


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