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HGTV Budgets

CEFreeman
9 years ago

I went on a rant about an HGTV thing recently, but that post has disappeared. No reprimand letter or anything, just gone. Wondering if I offended an advertiser or are we now subject to censorship of which I wasn't aware, after 10 years on GW?

I did, however, receive a response from ajc71 regarding unrealistic budgets on Fixer Upper.

Wanted to say I agree with you. I actually like the Fixer Upper, too, because they're nice to each other. It's already become very formula, but I also love their resulting style.

Costs can be unrealistic, simply because things are different in every area of the country. They do manage to do some pretty major renovations on very small budgets. I'm interested in the final increase in value of the home, myself.

So ajc71, I wanted to respond to your response! :)

I also wonder what happened to some of the fun shows like Designed to Sell? or that kitchen show with the pedantic Mark Bartelemayo (I murdered that name..)? I've almost (but not quite) given up watching DIY and HGTV because I soooooo dislike House Hunters of any sort.

The Scott brothers' shows have too much whining about "exceeding expectations." [GD&R] Really, most of the surprise-you reno shows do, but that was my original rant. :)

Comments (100)

  • meddam
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Poohpup, how did you end up on the show? Did you give them an amount you were willing to spend & then they worked within it?

    My dream would be to have Candace Olson come do one of my rooms. She might be challenged with my budget though...lol.

  • Lars
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    HGTV shows are not meant to be educational - they are not PBS! HGTV is meant to be entertaining, and if the shows were not entertaining, there would not be the ratings that they need for a commercial show. I don't think anyone is stupid enough to take any of these shows seriously, as it is patently obvious that this was never their intention.

    I love the bickering between David and Hillary on "Love it or List it" - and yet it is a predictable formula that is followed for each episode. Still, I like the characters. What does bother me is that people will increase their budget for a new house but seldom increase their budget as needed for the additional bathroom that they want, when they know that whatever money they put into the renovation (on this show, at least) is a profitable investment. I do agree that the assessed values at the end of the show are not realistic, but then neither are the budgets. Seeing snow on the ground is always shocking to me, as I have never experienced this - except on top of mountains.

    I hate the Brother to Brother characters and cover my eyes when any commercials for their shows come on. Also, I think their designs are hideous - but they are just not to my taste. I also hate the way they are hitting each other - that amounts to assault IMO, and I would never tolerate it. Either that or it is extremely juvenile and unsophisticated.

    FYI, on the "Flip or Flop" show, there have been episodes when they were NOT able to sell the house, and so they do not always make money. However, the budget for the show seems to allow them to buy more houses afterwards. They are paid actors, after all. I watch the show because it is in SoCal, and I like to see the neighborhoods near me. Living in L.A., I expect everyone to be an actor (I was in a movie and some commercials myself), and even my plumber was in a movie way back when.

  • suzanne_sl
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    hollysprings - are you aware that one of Mike Holmes hobby horses is just exactly what you said?

    The Holmes Foundation is a charitable foundation that supports the training of youth in the skilled trades, through apprenticeships, scholarships and bursaries. In Canada there is a desperate --and growing--shortage of skilled workers, and unless youth are encouraged to enter this employment field, all homeowners are making themselves increasingly vulnerable to unscrupulous contractors in the future....

    This doesn't help the U.S. much, but I appreciate his enthusiasm and he certainly has a following here. One problem I see is the waning influence of unions. When my BIL was a young man he worked his way up the union ladder in floor installation: apprentice, journeyman, master. If he laid your floor, it was done right. I'm pretty sure most of the places built around here have their floors installed by the guy who's maybe done one floor before and was hired from the "union hall" in the Home Depot parking lot. It costs less that way, you know, and unions, baaad.

    Here is a link that might be useful: Holmes Foundation

  • jellytoast
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    "I don't think anyone is stupid enough to take any of these shows seriously, as it is patently obvious that this was never their intention."

    Well, according to Holly, "lots" of us here on GW are "savvier than the average homeowner." I guess all those "average" homeowners are stupid enough as, apparently, "a nation of ignorant helpless citizens ... is already here."

    I do disagree with that take, though, and kinda think that the majority of people are "savvy" enough to know the difference between television and real life.

  • sixtyohno
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I am a news junky. So when the world becomes too much for me to handle, I go to HGTV for some really dumb stuff that takes no brain and causes no aggravation. It's all formula. It all looks the same. The home owners all say "all my god." I really hate when some jerk lies down in someone's bath tub with his big dirty shoes on and imagines himself naked, with a glass of wine, flowers and a his lovely partner.
    Then I fall asleep only to get up in the morning, go right to the net to find out what's going on all over the world.

  • CEFreeman
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    ...and if you read it online, unlike TV, it must be true, right?

  • poohpup
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Meddam, my friend wrote into the show because she had a really horrid floor plan for her master bath and wanted help. She ended up being picked. When I was visiting at her house, I asked the producer if they were interested in doing my son's room. I was redoing his room around this big silver car bed my husband had purchased for him. The producer was interested because we had good budget and it would be a quick project vs a kitchen or bath that most people want. Forgot to mention that the designer did stage his room with a lot of accessories that we didn't keep.

    The thing that drives me crazy is when people declare they hate a house because of the paint color or the homeowners furniture. Or they'll decide not to buy a house worth several hundred thousand dollars because a $300 piece of furniture won't fit. lol

  • plllog
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Re going to commercial on a line and coming out of it by repeating when they come back, that's a technique to hold people's attention, and it does work. Most people aren't the discerning consumers that GWKFs are, and they're only half paying attention. They're only half paying attention, anyway, and during the commercials, they're doing other stuff. By repeating 10 seconds that set up what's going on, the show holds their attention and keeps them from going, "Huh?" and changing the channel.

    Remember, people, these shows aren't about helping you. They're about selling eyeballs to advertisers. Far more people watch them as sort of visual anesthesia than ever do any remodeling. That's where the "but on TV..." syndrome comes from. They have an uncritical half idea of what it's about from letting HGTV drone on in the background while they're folding laundry and making school lunches.

    The thing you have to remember about these shows is that they really are only "spending" what they say they are, but they don't count their own labor--or the prep that was done with production assistants (PAs, otherwise known as cannon fodder) getting the permits and sourcing supplies for cheap, and/or advertising consideration. The labor is also done by everyone in the crew if necessary, to get it done.

    And I've heard from people who've had these rush jobs that it generally looks like crap when it's done. Good enough for TV, but doesn't show the flaws in the paint, etc.

    It's all about selling the commercials to the eyes of those tuning in...

    Have to disagree wtih Meddam. The worst Trading Spaces was the one where the designer insisted on changing the floor but didn't have the money, so put magazines under the new floor instead of padding.

    I don't watch HGTV anymore. When House Hunters started they actually followed real house hunters to real houses and would show house #35 and whatever. I thought Trading Spaces was a hoot just because it was so awful, but my brother would rant if I turned it on because it was a show about wrecking people's homes. :)

    Regarding House Hunters, Int'l or not, Coll_123 said They are always suspiciously in harmonious agreement. That's because they already have a contract before the shows are filmed. Not like in the old days I mentioned above where they actually would make offers that fell through. When they expanded the show to the three places to look at format so they could do production in other cities, they had to guarantee that the show could be made in a short time frame. So they use people who have signed, and even sometimes half moved in.

    Sometimes, especially on International, you can tell that the other properties are ones the agent wants advertising for because they're hard to move (too high for the locals), or that they're not really for sale, but interesting. There's a famous one that was done in France where tons of people recognized the showstopper and knew that it had never been on the market. But, I do like HHI. I like the cultural bits and travelogue between the hunts, and I like seeing the different kinds of houses. I feel let down if they're looking at ordinary suburban tract houses in Vancouver or Melbourne. It's "international" but still known. They're doing better with those, now, however, and showing more architecturally interesting houses, or at least more exciting travel shots.

    Poohpup, I used to love Designer's Challenge and Landscaper's Challenge exactly because they were pretty real. The unrealistic part was the impression they gave that the designers would do a full treatment/presentation on spec for free. :) In reality, they only do that for plum jobs it's worth investing their own money in trying to win. Otherwise, they may waive the cost of the presentation if you hire them, but otherwise, you do pay for it.

    Hollysprings, that's sad! I always thought a master plumber was a good catch. :) Same hours and pay as a doctor (this was back when doctors were paid well, nowadays I'd say better pay), but handier around the house. :)

  • MizLizzie
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    suzannesl, I think you hit hollysprings' nail on the head. In a former life I was a labor negotiator in the chemical industry. The blasted unions were the bane of my existence. But even then -- even at my most 3AM aggravated with the shops down and a thousand people out of work -- even then I knew they were a necessary evil and I knew what would happen to our nation without them. Well, they are all gone now, more or less. And look where we are. Everyone wants to be an English major. My father came up through the apprentice and journeyman's system to own his own business building interstate highway bridges. It put a nice roof over our heads and helped educate four girls, all now taxpayers. Now my own plumber can't find a helper. Not even a HELPER. He gave up looking for a plumbers to join his firm. He needs three. But at this point, he says he will settle for a dependable kid to ride shotgun and tote his tools. Nope. The parents up and down my street all whine and moan about their kids living at home. But no one's applying to tote a tool bucket.

    Okay. Rant over. But HGTV is a fantasy. I watch it like little girls watch Disney. But it is still a fantasy.

  • mrspete
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    A high school teacher's perspective on the "no one wants to go into the trades" thing:

    - When I was in high school (graduated in the 80s), we had tracking. That is, our core classes existed at three levels: The highest level for those who were headed to college, an average level, and what was essentially a remedial track. That meant that each class was tailored to that group's needs, which made perfect sense. Why'd it change? Part of it was that once a student was "assigned" to the low level class, he probably wasn't going to be allowed to move up -- even if he was a late bloomer. Also, a kid who had a learning disability in math was automatically going to be placed in ALL remedial classes; the idea that a kid could be average in reading yet need extra help in math didn't really exist yet. But mostly -- and this isn't politically correct -- it was because the college-bound classes were made up of mostly white students, while almost all the minority students were shoved into the average or remedial classes. However, in the attempt to avoid these issues, we've gone too far in the other direction. Now we pretend that EVERYONE should be going to college -- even if he doesn't read, hates school, can use technology but doesn't really understand how to control it, and has no direction in any academic field.

    - Part of this is that student loans are now widely available and are socially acceptable -- no, beyond acceptable. There's almost an expectation that "everyone borrows", so go ahead and do it. In the past, before this idea was so predominant, money kept students from going to college. By and large, that doesn't happen any more.

    - And, yes, there's a BIG social stigma against going into the trades. Oddly enough, this stigma seems to be strongest in two groups: 1) The kids who are from college-educated, professional families -- that is, the kids who've always assumed they were going to college. 2) The poor kids whose parents didn't finish school and are underemployed. These parents push the idea "my kid is going to college", though they don't seem to understand that high school habits (good attendance, choosing the tougher classes, studying) make college possible; rather, they don't seem to grasp that a kid who graduates with a D average isn't going to go on to the state flagship university and succeed. As a result of these stigmas, these kids take college prep classes and just sort of assume they're going to go on to college.

    - I'd say 10-15% of our kids take and LOVE our vocational classes. We offer Cosmetology, Nail Technology, Automotive Technology, Electrical Trades, Welding, Culinary Skills, a CNA Nursing program, Pharmacology Technology, Masonry . . . seems like I'm leaving something out. Oh, Drafting.

  • sixtyohno
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    BTW CEFreeman- I'm sure you are not trying to say that I am foolish enough to believe everything I read on the net. I do respect certain online sites and stay far away from others, just as one does when watching news on TV, choosing newspapers, magazines and people one takes seriously.

  • christina222_gw
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Have to agree on the trades. I've said many times that if I had it to do over again I'd like to have gone into the trades. I have a good college education and a good job but overall I think I'd rather have the skills of a union trade.

  • jellytoast
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Well, maybe the dream of being a reality TV star via a construction career will motivate a few to go down that path. Otherwise, I don't see what there is to attract them. Sure they can make money, but that requires that they do actual physical labor to get it. Most everyone I know with teenage kids don't even require their kids to do chores around the house, so I can't see those kids getting too excited about a future career that involves a lot of hard physical labor. Besides, construction jobs require that they put down their phones.

    You guys are painting a dismal picture of the future of the construction industry. All the more reason for homeowner's to join the ranks of the DIYers. May as well learn to do as much as we can because it sounds like we won't have anyone else to do it. Oh wait, I heard that on the internet.

  • CEFreeman
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    No, sixtyohno. It wasn't about you. It was a general commentary.

    I married my POC-ex-GC-DC because he could do and make things. Here in DC, I'd had my fill of dating sad, self-important child-lawyers, the 80s business degree business men (remember when THAT was what one studied), a banker, a real estate agent (wanna get rich quick?) or even military people of rank. I was impressed with the fact my fellow could DO something practical.

    We could drive down the road and he'd point out a church his dad built in 1950. He'd point at a high rise and tell me they GCed that job and so-and-so did the electric.
    IOW, he had something to show for himself. It wasn't another [inset sarcasm] deal, or a case. It was Tangible.

    I also think it's sad.
    MANY years ago now, I had a woman working for me once, whose daughter was dating a mechanic. He owned his own shop at 24. I tried to be enthusiastic, but worried about her daughter. Another of her coworkers asked about future and college, etc. She came right back and said she believed the world would always need mechanics, plumbers, electricians, and people who had actual skills.

    I, managing a travel agency, had an epiphany about the lack of importance in what we were doing.

    Yes, I like someone who has skills. And we're not talkin' marshal arts. :)

  • Amy Sumner
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    One of the reasons I meticulously chronicled our 9 month renovation of our kitchen and living spaces in a Facebook photo album was to specifically address the unrealistic expectations people have. I wanted to show that real life renovation is long, dirty, messy, full of delays and frustrations, full of joy and exhilarating ah hah! moments. The HGTV world is so out of touch. My brother-in-law was our contractor and I know many of his clients these days struggle to understand that you can't do a quality kitchen or bath reno in a week. I hoped to share, at least with my merry band of friends, what is truly involved in a major reno. May not change anything, but it was fun to document it. Full disclosure: I still watch HGTV, but I do find myself turning off most of the regular HH shows. I find so many of the clients to be irritatingly whiny. Great thread, as always, Christine!

  • greenhaven
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    hollysprings said: "There seems to be very few people anymore with a practical knowlege of anything that remotely involves working with your hands. It's not just the lack of exposure in school either. All of the trades folks that I know are not young, and there are very very few young people who are encouraged to be electricians, plumbers, mechanics, or HVAC techs. Prejudice against tradepeople says that kids must go to college, even if their strengths arent academic."

    LOL! Best post ever! That and the one referencing Mike Holmes. Mike Rowe has a similar foundation. hollysprings, are you really Mike Rowe?

    http://www.mikeroweworks.com/home

    I HUGELY respect this guy (and Holmes was always a bright spot in the dark sky of homeowner television, will have to look into his foundation, too,) and hope we as a nation might begin to see a paradigm shift when it comes to taking pride in the work we do, and doing what it takes to make ends meet and not be dependent.

    Mike Rowe for President!

    (lol?)

    Here is a link that might be useful: mikeroweWORKS

  • annkh_nd
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    My sons and DH saw Mike Rowe at the 2010 Boy Scout National Jamboree - he spoke at one of the arena shows. Mike is an Eagle Scout, and has a section of his web page devoted to Scouting.

    He has a t-shirt that says "A Scout is clean - but not afraid to get dirty!"

  • live_wire_oak
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Yes, one of my pet peeves are "designers" who don't have any practical experience doing anything. Believe it or not, there are some that just do the school bit and never have put a paint roller in their hands. (Not that education is at all unimportant.) It's like an architect who designs a building, but never worked a couple of summers in construction framing or roofing. Or a kitchen designer who only microwaves takeout. Practical considerations take a (distant) second place to "art". I just cannot fathom designing something dysfunctional and pretty, just because it's pretty. Like putting hay on a wall in a home. OK, interesting looking, I guess. But who on earth doesn't know that it's a completely unlivable choice!

  • mudhouse_gw
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hollysprings, I have to second Greenhaven’s comment. Best post ever.

    Years ago, when my father passed away, DH and I were surprised that nobody in the family was interested in any of his tools. (Who needs tools?) That was the beginning of a revelation for me. We were late to notice this trend, as we’ve always had our heads down, working with our hands. Although both of us have some college, we became professional craftspeople, and always improved the properties we lived in. We have no debt and retired early. But I still remember customer comments: “what a cute way to earn a living!”

    We looked up one day to discover that the younger folks all around us (in my family, too) see no value in owning a hammer, or in building skills that don’t involve an iPad. And their parents reinforce this belief. When did this happen? I do find it worrisome; it’s not just that I wonder who will repair my furnace when I’m elderly. It’s also that the attitude represents a shift in values that makes me very uncomfortable, and sad.

    What is wrong with manual labor? It used to be valued as an honest way to earn a living, and people used to find deep personal satisfaction, and pride, knowing they were skilled tradesmen, providing critical services to the community.

    “...The social stigma against those that work with their hands has to stop.” I sure agree.

  • annkh_nd
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    And the trend overlaps with an equally disturbing one - "throw away and buy new" instead of fix and repair what you have. I understand that in a lot of cases, simple economics drives this - it seems silly to spend $80 to fix a microwave, when you can buy a new one for $100. And it's a viscous cycle - we buy new because we don't know how to fix the old, or can't find someone else to do it. Things are not made to last, or be repaired, so we buy new. We forget how to fix or repair, because it isn't economical to learn how.

    My biggest concern about buy new over repair is the enormous resources wasted by such an attitude. Even if money is no object and you can buy a new washing machine, chances are the old one will only be minimally recycled, and the new one requires a lot of raw materials and energy to produce.

    Smashing windows for the fun of it on a remodeling TV show makes my skin crawl.

  • meganmca
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Annkh--and made worse by the fact that you can't get the part to actually fix the thing (like, say, my stove, that needed a new circuit board. But of course, they don't manufacture that anymore, 17 years later...).

    On the plus side, my kids' high school does all kinds of tech ed. The one who is a senior's done a bunch of engineering (what he wants to do long-term), culinary & carpentry. But, then, I want him to spend some time there learning life skills! And now, he cooks dinner 1/week or so. Happiness.

  • Swentastic Swenson
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    HA! I just wanted to thank you for posting this CEFreeman - it made me LOL. It always cracks me up when they hand the wife a sledge hammer and she gets to "take out her aggressions" on her kitchen cabinets. I'd love to see the morning after shot where she's nursing her tendinitis...

    I don't have cable anymore but ditto this sentiment and would like to include "house flipping" shows on the list. WOW do they give rehabbers a bad rep! If I ever meet whatshisnuts Montelongo I'd punch him right in his stupid face.

    Greenhaven I'm with you on Mike Rowe for president. I love that guy!

    IMHO I think this, just as with everything else, will ebb and flow. I think everyone is in agreement that we're tending toward a "throw away" world and one where people don't see the value in their own labor any more. The pendulum will swing in the other direction - it already is. Look to the hipsters to start building furniture by hand and revitalizing old trades. There's a guy here in Milwaukee who has started a program to teach a new generation trades of yore (like plaster, stained glass, decorative masonry, etc). He hires them and pays them $10/hr or so to learn the trade (on the job training) and puts them up in a house he owns. If I were younger and starting over, I'd love to do something like that!

    After the generation of useless yuppies flushes out I think we'll start seeing a trend toward handier people again.

  • amck2
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Interesting seeing this thread veer toward the importance of skilled trades people. Our family, including adult college educated children, had a discussion about this recently.

    There is such a lack of respect for people skilled in the trades and a general lack of understanding of what it takes to be a master of a trade. My DH grew up in a family of heavy equipment contractors and most people think moving earth and properly building a road or siting property is like playing with Tonka trucks.

    We recently had new hardwood floors installed in our home that were finished on site. I am in awe of how much skill and expertise was required to get from a stack of unfinished boards to the beautiful finished result. The floorers were there on time, worked through several evenings (we moved out during the process) and left our home neat and clean. They'll be back to do additional coats when the painter is done. I am as impressed with their work and manner as I have ever been with any professional person.

    Why don't people like this get their fair share of respect?

  • jellytoast
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    "Why don't people like this get their fair share of respect?"

    They do!! It is the hackers and the people who don't care about the quality of their work that don't get respect, and they don't deserve it. They cast a dark shadow on those in the trades who DO care.

    Just because someone doesn't want to BE in the trades or wants their child to do something besides physical labor for a living isn't to say that they don't respect those who do.

    I think it has less to do with people looking down on the trades, and more with people not wanting to do such difficult physical work. Sure plumbers make great money, but look what they have to do to earn it. Personally, I would HATE to be a plumber, but that's just me, and it has nothing to do with disrespecting them.

    "I am as impressed with their work and manner as I have ever been with any professional person."

    If they aren't professional people, what are they? Don't we always refer to them as professionals on this board?

  • amck2
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I need to come right back to emphasize that I was in no way inferring that the tradesmen were in any way less "professional" than anyone in another line of work - doctors, lawyers, bankers, etc. I was actually trying to make the point in my post that I didn't think the good ones get the recognition and respect they deserve for their skills and the expertise required to do their work.

    This post was edited by amck on Tue, Sep 2, 14 at 18:40

  • jellytoast
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    "I was actually trying to make the point in my post that I didn't [think] the good ones get the recognition and respect they deserve for their skills and the expertise required to do their work."

    Thanks for clarifying. Maybe HGTV and DIY TV have something to do with that by making everyone think they can do that kind of work. After all, how much skill and expertise is required if anyone can do it? I'm all for DIY and would never discourage anyone from going that route, but I do think the whole "anyone can do that" mindset diminishes the skills and knowledge required to do these things for a living, day in and day out. Then there is the glut of so-so or even poor quality work put out by some "professionals" that reflects poorly on the industry as a whole.

  • CEFreeman
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Ok, taking this in a similar but different direction.

    HGTV & DIY Network: Reuse, Repurpose and Recycle. Or something like that.

    What'cha think of the sledgehammer show? Can you scream WASTE?

  • mdln
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    @ Treb - "...you'll find many real-life contractors hate these shows, mainly for creating unrealistic time expectations."

    About now, I think my GC would prefer I watch those shows - rather than mention something I learned on GW.

    :-)

  • mudhouse_gw
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    What'cha think of the sledgehammer show? Can you scream WASTE?

    I've seen the promos for that show, and I'm determined to miss this one. Those sledgehammer shots have annoyed me for years!

    This kind of silly gratuitous waste only reinforces the trend towards "throw away and buy new" that annkh brought up, above. It makes my skin crawl, too! I know they do it for ratings, but I find it a bit insulting that HGTV believes this kind of display is what we all want to see. Grrrr.

  • jellytoast
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    "This kind of silly gratuitous waste only reinforces the trend towards "throw away and buy new" "

    Apparently there is something for everyone on HGTV. I've seen Nicole on Rehab Addict present completely "remodeled" bathrooms filled with things I would happily take a sledgehammer to. I do like her show though, regardless.

    When I tore out my kitchen, I figured if my old stuff wasn't good enough for me, it wasn't good enough for anyone else either. Everything in it was functional, but it was old, ugly, beat up, and almost even too gross for the landfill. I feel the same way about a lot of the kitchens I see demo'd on TV ... only a sledgehammer will put them out of their misery. I do agree with you, though, mudhouse ... do we really have to watch another homeowner take the first swing? Yawn.

  • annkh_nd
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    jelly, I reused almost all of my old kitchen cabinets. Some went to my laundry room; some went to my garage; the big ugly angled corner cabinets are in my neighbor's garage; one last upper cabinet is in the other neighbor's storage room. None were beautiful, but all were reasonably functional for their new homes.

    The only ones I didn't reuse were the base corner susans (which were complete crap), and the sink base, which had to be demolished to get it out from around the plumbing.

  • plllog
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    One thing to remember is that they cycle in new viewers every year and ones who've gotten savvy tend to rotate out. As kids turn into adults and then homeowners, they become whole new cohorts to watch shelter shows.

    I haven't even seen the promo for the sledgehammer show, but I will say that even though I was able to find homes for all my old, half dead appliances, except the oven which was dead dead, and even was able to save a few cabinets for the Habitat store, most were rotted and the tiles were cracked (and almost never salvageable anyway). A full time pro did the sledgehammering, but a lot of it was done. Then he sorted all the debris and it was delivered to industrial recycling. They may not show it--and may not do it on those shows--but there really is a good reason for destroying some things that look okay but really aren't, and there really is recycling of the broken bits.

    Good post-HGTV shows where they tell you the real price and do wonderfully competent work are on Animal Planet of all places. I guess they include trees in "animal". Treehouse Masters and Redwood Kings both show highly skilled and competent people building things right, using a lot of imagination, and getting paid very handsomely for it. :)

  • bob_cville
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Someone far upthread wrote:
    > Do they think we're all morons?!!

    At some level I think the simple answer is yes, or at least they don't want to scare off any of the viewers who happen to actually be morons by making the show too "highbrow". Because the most moronic of viewers will do exactly as shown on so many of the shows -- destroy everything with a sledge hammer -- replace it all with whatever brand appears in the next commercial.

    Smart shopping or careful weighing of the options or recycling or reuse are traits that are not of value to the advertisers, so the various shows are loathe to ever actually show any of those traits. They wouldn't want to set a bad example.

  • greenhaven
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Swentastic said: "If I ever meet whatshisnuts Montelongo I'd punch him right in his stupid face."

    Six-thirty in the morning and I scared the birds with my lol! I have no idea who that is, but it atill made me laugh hard enoigh to disturb the peace!

    I have done enough DIY stuff to understand how deeply difficult it is to get certain jobs done RIGHT. My DH ( ex-Navy) used to say "good enough for government work.". Now I tend to say ( In my own home) "good enough for DIY."

    I hate it SO much when those shows destroy perfectly reusable materials! Yes, some are just gross or destroyed, but some I would use in my own home if given the chance.

    I took HH off my dvr list the other day after reading here how they sometimes film after the actual sale! I knew a lot was staged, but that just finished me off. Still record HHI because of the locales and culture.

  • greenhaven
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    P.S., I totally forgot to mention how proud I am of my DIl, who is just 21 but loves to learn the skills to maintain her new house, build rather than buy the tjings she wants when possible, and is so awesome about looking for gently-used items to furnish her home. She loves to have me over to help, but is more like "Okay, gimme the drill now" than "You are doing fine, MamaG, thanks!" Love that girl.

  • gyr_falcon
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Well, in my opinion the trades got what they "asked for". I was no slouch academically, but wanted to take shop/trade geared classes as electives in high school. Request denied/no recourse. Solely because I am female.

    Graduated H.S. and took landscape and business courses in college. Probably 30-35% of the ornamental horticulture students there were female. Everyone shared the hands-on work of trenching ditches, designing and gluing irrigation systems, pruning trees and hauling away the debris, planting boxed-sized plants, etc. Upon graduation, the women had difficulty getting work in the field, unless they went into business for themselves like my husband and I did.

    The trades don't want to train people in their trade; they want to train men. Still. I won't be bothering myself to muster up sympathy in my heart for their self-constructed plight.

  • mdln
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    @ gyr - I thought I was the only one who was told "no" I could not take the woodworking class in high school.

    Am sure I would have been a master carpenter and put Norm Abram to shame (just kidding). So, I went into medicine instead and put holes in and cut up people - instead of wood. :-)

  • gyr_falcon
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Well, not kidding, you very well could have been! :) So much talent never realized in so many fields--it still makes me angry because it continues to this day. What really rankled at the time was the lack of any reason given beyond just "No." Glad you found another way to carve out a use for your talents.

  • peony4
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Interesting thread! I'll have to go look for the original.

    Regarding budgets on these HGTV shows, I always pretend in my head the quoted prices are for materials only. That's the only way I can relate to them.

    Regarding the trades, DH and I were recently having dinner with a few other couples whose professions require graduate degrees. One, an attorney, said she's not sure she'd even send her kids to college anymore--and referenced this joke:

    "A prominent lawyer calls a plumber to fix a leak in his shower.
    After about 25 minutes the plumber hands him a bill for $200.00. The lawyer, enraged, says: 'I’m a famous trial lawyer, and even I don’t make that kind of money for 25 minutes work!' 'Neither did I when I was a lawyer,' says the plumber."

  • greenhaven
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    "Glad you found another way to carve out a use for your talents."

    ROFL! No pun intended?!

    I got to take half a semester of woodshop in 7th grade, but every student rotated through every "shop" class; wood shop, metal shop, sewing and cooking. 8th grade year every student had the opportunity to take a full semeater of any two. I am 43 now, and I can say, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that the experience fueled my love for building things, especially out of wood. Even after I suffered injury at the helm of the band saw. ;0)

    Moved away after 7th grade and never got the opportunity again to get into a wood shop class. I still might find something around here, but it is so difficult to even find people who can teach it anymore.

  • CEFreeman
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    In Mason, MI in 1973, Jr. High girls and boys were also rotated through shop and home ec. It was really interesting. Our Shop teacher though, was definitely condescending to the girls in what he thought should be. [shrug] Oh well.

    Greenhaven, look for at Woodworker's Clubs (of America, I think.) I took a class there in basics. It's where I actually learned what 90% of the tools I have are. I also learned I had almost every single thing they did. I rock. Or ex-DH did, when he left it all behind. :)

    Anyway, I got more comfortable with different items. I want to take a class specifically devoted to routers, because that's the one I haven't tried to teach myself.

    I always thought I'd like to be a brick layer. Carrying the materials would have become an issue, though.

  • annkh_nd
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I took three years of shop in junior high, never took home ec. My Mom taught me to use a hammer, saw, and drill. She was always building things! I don't think my Dad knew which end of a screwdriver to hold.

    Today I'm a mechanical engineer. I once went to a conference where there were only two women. All the men (and the other woman) wore black or navy or dark gray suits (it was 25 years ago, when people still dressed up); I wore a pink linen blazer. Just because I'm in a male-dominated profession doesn't mean I have to dress like one!

    It came in handy, too - if someone wanted to find me in the group of 200 to ask about my research, they didn't have any trouble picking me out of the crowd.

    I also worked on a garbage truck in high school (because my boyfriend's family owned the business). I worked months on the back end, until I learned to drive the truck. I loved the look on peoples' faces when they'd say "Hi, fellas!", and see that I was a girl!

    We had one very chauvinistic employee. He could not let himself be shown up by a girl in any way. I'd walk to a set of cans; he's walk faster. I'd trot, he'd trot faster. Pretty soon we were racing to the cans - and finishing the route in record time!

  • JoppaRich
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    " And yet they spend $30K, and the value of the home goes up $75K. In what universe?"

    Replacing fixtures and fittings, etc doesn't make money. Moving walls and improving the flow of the house does. Good flippers make a lot of money, and they do because they improve the way houses flow.

    They also tend to buy houses with things that aren't too expensive to fix, but tend to horrify people - I saw one flipping show where the guy bought a house from another flipper who'd given up because the house smelled bad - one of the toilets was clogged - was like a $100 fix and the guy sold the house to him at a $20K loss.

  • bob_cville
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I took 6 years of shop through middle school and high school. The middle school classes were about 1/4 girls, in high school however I only recall two girls in the classes. So I don't think the school prohibited girls from attending, but they may have "discouraged" them, since guidance counselor suggested that maybe I shouldn't take shop, since I was college bound, and shop was usually the route for people who had no prospects for college, and that maybe I should take a study hall instead, since I was taking a full load of college prep classes. That was the last time I sought any "guidance."

    One of my classes did have a section on bricklaying, where part of the grade for that section was to take a wheelbarrow filled with something heavy (bricks? concrete blocks? bags of mortar? ) and push it 50 feet down the hallway turn around and come back. Since I was rather scrawny, it was quite difficult for me. The wheelbarrow tipped over and I got a non-passing grade for that portion of the class grade.

    greenhaven, if you are going to have an accident the band-saw is a good one to choose. Accidents there are likely followed by "Ow that %&@#%ing hurts" whereas over at the table saw the exclamation might be "Oh $#!+!, can someone help find my finger?"

  • suzanne_sl
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    annkh - at least your high school had shop. Mine was all college track. Back in "those days" they gave us a test to assess what we might be good at along about 11th grade. I was good at a number of things, none of which were secretarial type things. Looking back at that test years later, I see that I scored a 99th percentile on mechanical reasoning. No one ever suggested that I might do well to pursue something using that talent. Had I been a boy, I suspect that conversation would have taken place. As it was, my counselor told Mom that, really, not everyone had to go to college. Nice. In the end I graduated with honors from one of the top universities in the country in the requisite 4 years, so I guess that counselor was just wrong from beginning to end. And too bad about no shop - in recent years I've taken classes at the local community college in "Cabinet and Furniture Technology," along with a couple of foreign languages, science, and art.

  • Bunny
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    One of my regrets in life is that I didn't take shop in high school. Back in the early 60s it would have been unthinkable for a middle-class girl on the college track.

  • CEFreeman
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Isn't this interesting?
    In my family of 3 girls, it was college. Period.
    My parents were bucking the trend in that they were not raising us to find a man, get married, have a family and be a good wife. Even for the last debutante in the family. College it was so we could grow up and take care of ourself.

    The skills I use and value the most of my 3 degrees? Waiting tables, tending bar, computer/web building and training, and teaching yoga. Hey! Wait! That's what I doing again, here at this juncture in my life.

    When I was in college, there was only Fortran for a computer language, and PCs were a dream not yet dreamt. After college, community courses were accounting (I got out without any math or science credits aka "interdisciplinary degrees") MIS (Manager of Information Services, now IT) , Microsoft certification classes, and a few other, incidental classes. But my point is, I learned so much more after college. Only hands-on (other than computers) productive talents in the last 5 years

    I'm glad my parents didn't push us to marry and reproduce. OTOH, I'd have liked a little more practical knowledge.

  • kompy
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Regarding fixer uppers and equity: I got REALLY lucky four years ago.......due to ONE thing! The realtor that listed the 1925 Craftsman/Colonial house I bought was a HORRIBLE photographer and his photos made the house look just awful (but it wasn't...needed work but had amazing bones). I got the house at a great deal and built in equity from day one. Realtors! Take good pics or hire someone.

  • greenhaven
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Bob_cville said: "greenhaven, if you are going to have an accident the band-saw is a good one to choose. Accidents there are likely followed by "Ow that %&@#%ing hurts" whereas over at the table saw the exclamation might be "Oh $#!+!, can someone help find my finger?""

    That about sums it up, ha ha! Although it was followed up with the tjought 'So that is why he said not to push the wood through from the front.'. I was a bright kid I swear, lol!

    Kompy said: "Realtors! Take good pics or hire someone."

    YES! One of my biggest pet peeves!!! Real estate photos are the worst, but jorses for sale has got to be a close. I will not look at ads with no photos, but it peeves me off something fierce when I get to see a hairy, filthy horse standing in mud past his ankles wearing a halter eleven sizes too big and hung onto by Joe Bumpkin wearing cutoffs and rubber boots. Umm, no thank you?

    But I digress. Very few people ever talked to me about going to college, even though I knocked every test out of the park and was in college prep classes making good grades until my senior year. Not one of them actually encouraged it. I got married instead and went to college and earned a couple 2 year landscape design and horticulture degrees when my kids were in high school.

    But no regrets. I was not prepared to go to college when I was eighteen. And now I am a learning machine.

  • edeevee
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I thought I was pretty savvy about remodeling but it turns out that I am an HGTV moron.

    We wanted to get our sunroom windows replaced but it turned into a much bigger project. We agreed to do the demo to save $$. I'd seen the tv shows; how hard could it be?

    Really hard. And that was just a couple of days after I'd received a steroid shot -- ohmigosh, once that thing wore off ... Owwwww!

    P.S. Sent my kid through college for graphic design. He's back in school now. This time for welding!