I should add..

I like that I have lots of windows to look out at the garden, we have a lot of landscaping.

We could extend a bit into the back yard, but I don't think we could do a big room as then we'll have little back yard.

We also have to be careful to not over price the house. It does only have 2 bedrooms, but is closer to size of 3 bedroom house because of the large living room and family room. Our area does have 2 bedroom homes that are smaller than ours (no family room), or 3 bedroom and 4 bedroom homes.

Thanks Plllog for embedding the picture. How do you do that?

So, this is the current kitchen layout, with all the problems I described in my first post. I'm after any ideas to fix the layout.

Thanks.

How about this: Move Laundry room to nook could be covered or even stacked, so that you could use it for other things? Like a computer area too or put your wine fridge there?, make laundry room mudroom and reconfigure with bathroom.

as for the kitchen, it's very similar to mine (though might be a touch smaller. Do you have the overall dimension of the room? I can't tell how wide it is. Anyway, in my set up I have the fridge on the stove wall and the stove on the fridge wall. I think this might work for you.

I could lay something out for the kitchen if you give me the room dimensions.

I'd switch the laundry room and bathroom enabling a potential larger bathroom. I think I'd make the breakfast nook a small computer room area with built in storage. Are the DR walls load bearing? Do you use both the family room and living room? Are you open to making one of those more multi purpose? Another words... an eating/lounging area? I'm a believer (now... after going through tons of plans myself) of trying to make an exisiting footprint work if at all possible.

You're welcome. It was too late for me to think of anything to say.

You can embed using HTML. There are instructions in the READ ME FIRST thread that lurks on the first page or so of topics.

I think it would help a lot to have an accurate scale drawing. If you're not good with a drawing program, graph paper works.

Be careful reconfiguring a classic Calif. bungalow (native speaking here). Those '40's bungalows were thrown up fast and cheap for returning GI's (many of whom didn't want to return to Mid-West Winters). They were basically, miniature, and weren't expected to stand more than 10 years. If you scrape, however, you could end up with a McMansion (as far as I know that's the origin of the term :) ). What's important with these is that you retain some of the bijou feeling. OTOH, it helps a lot that there are larger houses in the area. But I wouldn't knock the kitchen, DR and FR together, for instance. That kind of great room is inappropriate for the style of house.

It's hard to tell with things out of scale, but would it work to make the breakfast nook into the laundry room, and turn the laundry room into a mudroom? And maybe expand the bathroom a little into that space?

Thanks.

becktheeng. The kitchen dimensions are 134" wide and 131" long. These aren't exact measurements - my 4 yo had to help hold the measuring tape. But they're close and give you an idea of the space. I never thought of using the breakfast nook for the laundry or for something else. I have thought of swapping the stove and the fridge, but I'm not sure the stove will have much landing space beside it.

remodelfla - an interesting idea to switch the laundry and the bathroom. We do enter the house through the laundry area, it's the side door and closest to the driveway, could we still do that if it's a bathroom with shower? We could go through the gate and into the backyard and then through french doors into family room. We're on a side lot, so front door faces main street, driveway is on smaller side street and we have a side door. We also have french doors off the family room and into the back yard. We're in SoCal, so we don't park in the garage, it's our storage area and no room for a car. DH parks on the main street and uses the front door. I park on the driveway and use the side door.

I never thought to make the breakfast nook a computer area with built-ins. My MIL suggested we move the fridge and pantry to the breakfast nook area.

I'm not sure if the DR walls are load bearing. We need to get someone in to check. We have thought of pushing the kitchen into the dining room and then the top part of the family room, where the dining room entrance is into the family room, could be the dining room area. Currently it has DS's train table, play kitchen etc. I don't mind have combined eating/lounging area. The current dining room is separate and has typical wainscoting of our era house. I do like to keep some things that are original to the house, but if it needs to go to make the space work for how we live, I can deal with that.

Our living room is one of those rooms that people walk in and go "wow, what a beautiful room". It's original fire place. 6 windows with a huge picture window that overlook yard. I don't think we want to change much in there. People also comment on our family room, but I'm willing to play with that room as it was an extension and not quite the same original feel as the living room.

I've done a floor plan on graph paper and scanned it in.

Here it is:

I've also posted photos of the current kitchen in my Photobucket album

I should have cleaned up before I took the photos, but you can see how little room and things are out on the counters, which I really hate.

I appreciate any suggestions you have. We are open to different ideas. We want to do it properly ONCE.
Thanks.

Here is a link that might be useful: Photos of current kitchen layout

pllog - I agree about being careful with creating a great room by opening up the kitchen to the dining and family room. It is not the style of this house.

I think moving the laundry into the breakfast nook and expanding bathroom into mudroom/entrance would help with those areas being too tight. But I still have the problem with the kitchen being tight. I would dearly love to have 2 people work without getting all over each other.

I plan to extend the cabinets to the ceiling, so that will give me more storage space. But it's counter space and room to move that I need to address with this remodel. We're open to moving walls, doors, windows, gas/water, and even extending if we can't come up with something that uses the current floor plan. I know moving things costs money, so I'll just save longer.

Some ideas we've had:

Move fridge/pantry to breakfast nook, but still squished in laundry room/bathroom. The bathroom has to have shower/toilet to still count as 3/4 bath.

I've thought about removing the 76" wall between the laundry room and the kitchen - but DH thinks it'll be silly to walk straight into the kitchen. But still have to do something about the laundry room and bathroom.

Oops, I had the external door into the laundry room swinging the wrong way. This is the main door that DS and I enter the house as it's close to the driveway. DH parks on the main street and enters through front door.

Here is the corrected floor plan.

The black boxes are windows.

The double doors from the dining room to the living room are french doors

The entrance from the breakfast nook to the family room, the kitchen to the dining room, and the dining room to the family room are doorways, but no doors.

The Bathroom and Breakfast Nook overlook the back yard.

The kitchen and dining room look out onto the side yard (we're on a corner lot).

The kitchen exterior wall has the AC Unit, sprinkler valves, water shut off and electric panel.

Thanks again.

Thanks for the scale drawing!! That makes it much easier to see.

I don't think any of us care about cleaning up before the pictures. Don't give it another thought. But I couldn't get into your Photobucket area.

Thanks for the graph paper version. That makes it much easier to see. I think there should be just enough room in the nook for standard laundry machines, but I don't know about a sink. I think keeping the wall between the nook and current laundry is actually useful to you for your mudroom function, but that might depend in the end on how everything else configures.

In inches, the kitchen proper is pretty decent sized. It's just that it includes a hallway. I would definitely not put a task area on the right hand wall (the "hall" wall). Is there ducting for your range hood there? Or somewhere else? Or doesn't exist? I'm assuming in a normal bungalow it wouldn't be that hard to vent up from wherever the range is placed, but I'm no expert on that kind of thing.

Do you have dish storage in the dining room?

Getting a couple of people place to work shouldn't be a big problem. There is enough size. Here's a quick and dirty without moving any walls. I put in a 30" range, a really big corner sink in the window, and a big fridge. The fridge could go either side, so I put in on the FR side, but it really should be on the DR side, closer to the sink and the eating. The rest of that wall could be floor to ceiling stotrage, though when I put the fridge toward the FR I was thinking of a serving counter for the DR. You might need a lot more storage than that. I've cooked for more people than can fit in your house in a fairly similar space, but it does rely on your being able to use alternate countertops, like the laundry machines and the dining table, if you have a big project that needs to spread out.

Oh, and the DW has to slide down to the end or there isn't enough room for the dish doer, but it also might be a lot better without the L, and with a standard sink flat on the wall. I just thought that corner window was nice to use.

I like pllog's work...I've been playing around with recessing the fridge into the family room (at the dinning room end...it seem like you have a jog in the wall there already (don't know how your family room is set up or if this will work for you). The rest of the wall would be for pantry and appliance storage. I think I would get rid of the little wall at the end near the nook. At the very least I would make it smaller to work with the cabinets.

Pllog, thank you for doing this.

I could see putting the WM/Dry in the breakfast nook. I saw an idea in a magazine a while back. They had a front loader and dryer under a counter. With the base cabinet doors closed, you didn't know they were there. There were also upper cabinets above for storage. I liked it, DH didn't. He complains about the noise from the WM/Dry when we're watching TV and they're in a room with a closed door. But I'm keeping the idea as a possibility.

My only concern about the fridge side is that if it's floor to ceiling storage, I don't get any extra counter space. Currently, I do most of my cooking in front of the dishwasher and it drives me batty as it's too small. I would like to try and work out a counter top that is a little longer, not much just another base cabinet would be fine.

I never thought about recessing the fridge. DUH moment as my parent had to do this in their bathroom. They recessed the shower into the walk-in pantry. Once the pantry's shelves were up, you couldn't tell.

The other side of the Family room has the TV on a stand and speakers either side. We might need to move those down and then move the sectional couch so its lines up. But I think that could work. I actually want DH to mount the TV on the wall and if we had some built in cabinets, you wouldn't notice the jog in the wall.

I do like the idea you and Plllog both have of moving the stove out of the walk access. DS loves to run through the kitchen and I've got the oven open.. not safe at all.

Thanks for this idea.

becktheeng, what program are you using to come up with the floor plan. I think I need to get something like that to work with different options. I can't see it all without playing around with it.

I want to explore putting either the fridge and/or pantry in the breakfast nook and then opening up the long run to counter and upper cabinets. I know it's further to walk to get things, and not what's supposed to be done. But both my mother and my mother-in-law, have the fridge and pantry a LONG way from their sink and stove - as in other end of the kitchen, and their kitchens are much bigger than mine.

I wonder if it's possible to combine the laundry and 3/4 bath into one room. The washing machine/dryer would need to be stacked. It would make the entry a hallway rather than a mudroom, but I could work with that if I can find a place to put purse/keys/bills etc.

Plllog, I forgot to answer your question about venting the hood. We currently have a built in microwave hood that is attached to the stove's backsplasah. The microwave does not work, which is why I have another one on the counter top. I'm sure we could vent the hood to the outside, it's not far to the wall. We do have soffits at the moment, and I want to remove those. Hopefully we can do that.

Oh,the microwave, that has to go somewhere too. I would prefer OFF the counter. I hate things on the counter. I'm sure I'm going to try for an appliance garage somewhere.

We have a freestanding buffet in the dining room, but it doesn't hold a lot. It's more an artistic piece, and we want to keep it. It has a top shelf, one drawer where I put the good silverware, a shelf underneath for a few display pieces and then 2 small cabinets - I put my serving pieces in here. I'll have to take a picture. The dining room is crowded as our table is too big for the space. I want to get a table that seats 4 but has a hidden leaf. We're a family of 3, so 4 seats is plenty for most times.

Here's some photos, in case the photobucket doesn't work - I changed the photos to public access.

Looking from family room entrance across dining room to kitchen, I need to find a spot for the wine fridge.

Looking from dining room - this is where I do most prep work.

Sink, dishwasher.

Pantry, counter, stove, counter

Breakfast Nook

Laundry room. Door on right is external door and the main entrance that DS and I use. Doro on the left is to the bathroom.

Again, I'm appreciating all the ideas and suggestions. I'm writing them down in my kitchen notebook...

canicci-

I use the better homes and gardens Home designer software...I got it last year when I started working on our kitchen. I went through something like 22 different layouts, and it really helped to have the software.

I might be able to put more into the computer, but probably not until late this weekend.

BTW, I think you could fit in a MW on the pantry run I have above, but it would have to be a smaller one....I've seen them with pullout breadboards below to give a landing space.

{{gwi:2108275}}

Here's an example of a cool corner sink. There are lots of versions of the same kind. It gives you more standing room than the sink across the diagonal.

You could, for sure, continue the counters around the way they are in the old kitchen, and as Beck has shown. That cramps the standing room at the range, however, with it on that wall. A pie cut lazy susan would help that. You could also do a flip down counter extension there, so that if you're cooking with your son you could put it down, but pull it up for more counter space.

In the version I did, there's a 36" full depth fridge (I thought I was doing 30" but overdid it!), and some five feet of extra deep counter. Is the DR wall really as deep as it appears on paper? I think maybe the measure is to the opening, rather than the casing, and it's only standard depth, based on the picture.

Many other configurations are possible. These are just starting places.

What you described for the washer and dryer is what I was thinking of: Counter and cabinetry to make it pretty and useful. The question is are you going to buy new W/D? And do they make really quiet ones? I think they do nowadays.

Let's look at your wish list and throw in some needs (Buehl is better at this, but I'll give it a stab):

• Larger, nicer 3/4 bath

• Drop space, at minimum, for coats, purse, backpack, mail, etc. No actual muddy boots (as in NE mudroom), right?

• More worktop area

• Dish storage

• Wine fridge

• Trash pull-out

• Pantry storage

• Double ovens?

So I tried to pack it all into the existing space. Something's gotta give. :) First the laundry/bathroom: I don't think combining them would help your house's value. As it is, the bathroom is not located where people want a 3/4 bath. A 1/2, yes, and that's probably what it originally was.

So, thinking into the future, is there room by the bedrooms to add a bathroom and laundry extension? Make a master suite area? That's something a lot of people do with bungalows and it does add to the value if it's done well. You could use the nook area for the fridge and pantry now, and live with the bath/laundry as is. When you add the extension, you could reduce the wall between the nook and current laundry, and the bathroom!, and make a proper little breakfast nook there, with good fridge access. A long banquette facing the windows should work in the space, but would require some clever dump space to keep people from using the table for that.

I don't really like the above option, but it's an idea.

Realistically, there's no room for double ovens and the amount of counter space you want. If you did the full floor to ceiling by the fridge in my first picture, you could put them there. But you want more worktop.

In the picture below, I cut the sink apart, and put a prep sink in the corner, and a small cleanup sink on the FR wall. This isn't a good layout, really. It would...

Becktheeng - I'll have to get the software, so I can try many different layouts. I can deal with a smaller microwave. I really just use it for reheating. My MIL has a microwave/convention/hood above her range. I would prefer a regular hood, but I might be interested in the microwave/convection to get a 2nd oven.

Plllog,
I think that sink would give me so much more room in that corner. The current sink uses up a lot of room. I'll also have to look at the pie-cut lazy Susan and the counter extension that you mentioned. I'm sure there are other things that will make the space more useful. The current kitchen is 1980s dark brown veneer cabinets that were repainted. It was done by a single man that didn't cook, so it is not a cook's kitchen at all.

We could purchase new wm/dry if needed. Our current ones are 10 years old, still going strong. I'll reuse them if I can, but if not, I can look at new ones.

The wall into the dining room where the current dishwasher is, is 6.5" wide including trim around the door. The current counter depth above the dishwasher is 24.5"

I agree that double ovens will be a push in this space. I was thinking of the double oven in a range that I've seen, but I've heard it's difficult to get big items out of the bottom oven as it's so close to the floor. Another option is the combined microwave/convection oven. My MIL has one as her hood, I would prefer a regular hood, but I may not be able to do that. I don't mind having a range, I'm thinking of duel fuel as I prefer gas cooktop and electric oven, but again my mind can be changed on this. Anything will be better than the 20 yr old stove I currently have!

I know my wish list is long, and I'm going to have to prioritize.

I measured outside and I could see moving the nook back to level with the bathroom, and then there's another 6 ft of garden bed from the bathroom wall. DH doesn't want to go into the yard, but I don't see the issue. This 6 ft isn't runing around play space. It's ferns and a big bird of paradise palm, and it borders the garden path from the gate into the back yard.

Our bedroom also over looks the yard on the other side of the house, there is less room here for extending into the yard, so I can't see adding a bathroom here. I hear what you're saying about keeping the bathroom/laundry as is and when extend/remodel elsewhere you could move the bathroom then. If we extend up, we could do that, but honestly I don't think that will happen. It's too expensive to add on a story. I think we're going to keep it as a 2 bedroom, unless DH's uncle the architect has a brilliant idea to reconfigure what we have.

As we're on a corner lot, we can extend out into the side yard - the wall for the dining room, kitchen, laundry room. Our area was recently rezoned, and I think it allows us to go either further into the side yard. I'll have to find out.

As for budget, we have enough now to redo the kitchen with middle of the road cabinets, appliances, counter top. To do more, move walls, extend on, include laundry/bathroom - we need to save for longer. Our city is notorious for difficulty in getting permits etc, and friends have told us you need 6-12 months to get plans approved and it can take 6 months to work out your plan. ...

Could you do a stacking washer and dryer? Could you get a coat closet in there?

Regardless of the layout, you may want the wine fridge in a fairly "out of the workspace" location, like in the last drawing...since it is not a primary appliance. Maybe if you really needed it, another oven could go over here somewhere too

With that much bathroom space, you should be able to do a door that swings in to save room in the laundry. Could you eliminate the door to the laundry room from the kitchen? Could you eliminate the window in the breakfast nook without ruining the look of the house?

I just realized I was looking at the plan wrong and was thinking that the nook had a solid wall. It's a big window! Big windows are good!

This is just me talking about me talking (whereas usually I'm trying to think like the poster), but especially considering I'd want to keep those windows, I'd want to keep the walls as they are (very true to the house), though maybe remove the door between the laundry and the house (but that might not be up to code, which often insists on two doors between a kitchen and a bathroom). Put some hooks on the wall by the entry door, and maybe some hot file pockets for thinks like papers and odd bits. Then I'd do the first layout I posted, perhaps with a flip up or pullout counter extender between the sink area and stove area. And if I could have the wall side drawers next to the range only have less used items, I'd put a kitchen stool (the old fashioned kind with a seat and steps) in that area, and move it as needed.

I'd make the right hand wall with a 30" fridge (counter depth or built-in if I could afford it for looks, or maybe full depth for capacity) on one end, and a full height cabinet with an Advantium in it (second oven plus MW). That leaves only three feet in the middle for a counter, but it's a convenient landing space, maybe even a good place for the mixer. The uppers in the center could have glass in the doors for everyday dishes to make that bank less heavy. That way the dishes are near the DW, fridge and MW, and close to the dining room.

Then I'd put as big a 30-32" high credenza as I could find for a good price in the nook, preferably with a marble top. There are a lot of these. That would be a great place to for kitchen overflow, and could double as a baking center/rolling station. One could also pull up a chair and put coffee-and on the top, and enjoy the sun while reading through recipes and writing lists, even without a kneehole.

It's amazing how little space is actually needed for prep, so long as one has a few places to remove stuff to, like the bowl of bread for stuffing, or the cooling trays of cookies.

Since there isn't a better place for a second bathroom, I might do as others have suggested and stack the washer and dryer (some of the new front loaders let you stack full sized ones), in order to expand the improve the bathroom, but that's a different project.

That may be nothing like what you want to do, but that's my best plan given the constraints.

Palimpsest - we could do a stacking washing machine and dryer in the current laundry. I have side by side machines and there's a cabinet above for laundry items - I can only reach the first shelf because I'm short, so stacking the machines and having a closet beside would work fine.

We've thought about eliminating the door from the kitchen to the laundry, I do wonder if it's building code as Plllog suggested. I'll have to look at it. It is annoying that the external door, the bathroom door and the door to the kitchen all swing into the luandry space. It also means that I can't have hooks along that wall as when open both doors nearly touch.

I don't think the windows in the breakfast nook will hurt the look of the house. It faces the back yard and only us will know that there was ever window there.

The wine fridge does need to be in a spot where it's not in the way. Our current dining room is too cramped with the fridge, too large table and buffet. I've been toying with the idea of opening up the wall from the dining room into the family room - not totally open but a bigger opening. I think it will make it feel bigger, it will still be a separate space. Just another idea I'm toying with.

Plllog,
yes the nook is all windows. I have shelves on the side for my cookbooks, but that's temporary. I have thought of having a built in counter here. It would be good storage overflow and an extra counter for when there are more cooks.

I've thought of doing a counter depth fridge. I think it might be necessary to keep as much room to walk past. They hold less, so that's a concern. My current fridge is a side by side that is very old, so I don't think I"ll notice the size difference much.

I think you're right with having an Advantium oven - it will give me the 2nd oven and microwave in one.

A friend was over and they've just done a remodel. If we decide to extend, she thought it should be out the breakfast nook and the bathroom. We can go back 6ft from the bathroom wall and not having a problem as it's a garden bed. We could then move everything done. Move the bathroom into the brekfast nook and new space, move the laundry into new space, move the mudroom into existing bathroom and open the kitchen up into what is now the laundry. I think this might be the best idea for extending, but we'll have to see about costs and building code. I know we can only use up a certain % of your lot, but I think we're OK as we have a bigger corner lot. I'll have to look into requirements for our city.

We have to work out if we're just doing the kitchen or if we take care of the bathroom and laundry room. I know it means more work and more money, but I think I lean towards doing it all together. Or at the very least, have a plan for all of it and then do it in certain stages. I want this part of the house to flow better than what it does.

Doing the whole plan at once is a very good idea. Then, even if you implement in stages, you know what you're doing rather than being left thinking, "Now what?"

Make sure about the exact measurements, easements, etc., but I think your friend's idea sounds like a great way to expand the kitchen. Just remember that you can't have a door to the bathroom opening into the kitchen (I think that's true just about everywhere in California). Maybe it can open off the family room and mudroom, both. That'll help make it seem like less of a servant's bathroom, too. Opening up that U would be great!

I agree that opening up that U would be great. The short side where the current fridge is located, makes it awkward.

I agree with the servant bathroom. I have to make sure the laundry is cleaned up before sending guests through there. That's a good idea to have entrance from family room and mudroom - that's something to figure out with the architect.

I think we'll have to do it in stages. I would love to do it all at once, but I can't see that happening. I could see us extending on and doing the kitchen. The laundry just needs to function,and we can do without that 2nd bathroom - so I could see those parts being finished later on if needed. I'm used to doing things in stages. My parents couldn't finish the house they were building before we moved in. We had sheets over the bedroom and bathroom doorways as no doors. They couldn't afford the kitchen cabinet doors, so the local cabinet maker said he would do 4 at a time. It took about 2 years to get all the doors. We actually preferred the cabinets without doors as it was very easy to find something.

I've been reading other posts, and I'm making a list of what I like and would like to have in the kitchen. I know this will all take some time to come together, and that's OK - more time to save so I can buy things like the Advantium oven - I really like the look of that!