Unfortunately because of the width of the picture you have included the text runs under an ad box so I can't read your questions that you want to have discussed.

Perhaps you could edit your post and remove the pictures from the text placing them in a separet comment below the text (or copy the text over into a comment below the first ). Or do both to make sure it';s readable, ssmehow.

This is not your fault but one of the current annoyances of GW when wide photobucket pics are included in posts.

Another possible fix is resizing you picture while still in PB, but that's harder than to do than simply divding your text and image into separate boxes.

Thanks

L.

Thanks liriodendron for your posting tips to make it larger. It is a bit better now. Also, if you click on the larger floor plan it goes a bit larger still once it gets to Photobucket. I will have to figure out how to resize in Photobucket as the new GW is unforgiving in terms of font size. We will all need glasses to be members!!

Carol

Well, actually I wanted you to make the picture smaller (at least horizontally) in order to avoid having the text in your post run so wide that it goes under the ad boxes on the right.

Or separate the text in a comment below, which generally are OK if wide because the wretched ads don't extend that far down the page.

I'll check back another time to see if the ads have gone away (as they sometimes, do).

This is not your fault, as mentioned above. It's just that the horizontal box dimensions of the image on photobucket (which you can control to some extent) enlarge the line lengths of the text which, in turn extends them under the ads on the right, making the text undecipherable. It's one of the long-time, sub-par vagaries of GW's page design, which somehow survived the recent overhaul, alas..

The only remedy is breaking the text away from the image box and adding it below the ad-likely area, or controling the horizontal width of image while it is still on PB.

BTW, anyone's wide image at any point in the thread will do this, not just the OP.

L.

L>

Wow, that is too bad. The text is all narrow now for me and no ads cover it at all now that I did the editing. The photos are also a legible size. Is anyone else having trouble reading the post or seeing the pictures?

Carol

It looks fine to me. None of the text is on the ads...at least not on my computer.

Posting appears fine on my iPad.

On your window wall, I would put the left 2 drawer banks under the window, just like the drawers on right, and moved the doored cabinet more to the left.

I really like your glass door cabinet between the windows, but personally, I would rather have the cooktop between the windows with direct vent to outside.

I would also consider a double trash pull out in a single cabinet for your wet and dry trash rather than dedicating 2 island cabinets to trash. Then, I would move the steam and wall oven from the exterior wall to the island.

Dilly_ny,

Thanks for your feedback. Very good point about moving the drawer banks under both windows. The elevation picture is not accurate for lower cabinets/drawers, but the floor plan is. It needs updating. I only posted it so others could see the windows and glass cabinet, oven and fridge locations.

The lowest we can install the steam oven is at 43 inches. It is supposed to be installed higher according to specs (bottom counter height). At the shown height we have just enough room to drop the plumbing down in between our basement ceiling i-joists. Any lower would not work. So if we did move it to the island it would need to be in an elevated portion of the island.

I appreciate that the cooktop would look beautiful and function economically for venting if we moved it to the outside wall. However, I have issues with being easily startled, so do not want my back to the whole kitchen when I am cooking. I should have put that in this post so everyone would know that the cooktop needed to stay on the island. I know the venting for this cooktop will be tons more than if it was vented to the outside, but it is worth it to me.

We have a three trash system where I live. So a double trash would only take care of two thirds of the trash. Do they sell three cabinet trashes? If so, that would work well to save some lower cabinet room on island. Thanks for that point.

Thanks again. I appreciate your thoughts.

Carol

P.S. I will be checking back at the end of the day as we are on the road today.

DH and I were chatting as we went on our day trip to choose stones for our front steps. We concluded we wanted to shorten the size of the peninsula so when clearing the table or setting the table we didn't have such a long peninsula to go around. We taped down the sizes of the island and peninsula on the ground and it was really long to walk around.

Do you think I could place one DW under the top window near zone N? Also I wondered if we could have some sort of back splash behind the sink but keep the rest of the clean-up peninsula all one level so it could function as a pass-through between daily used dining room and kitchen? Any ways to work that in?

Carol

I know you've worked a LONG time on this plan and it's what you want...but since you asked, I have always wondered why you have two sets of windows. Have you ever thought about one BIG bank of windows with the sink under and the fridge closer with the ovens on the other side?

The island cook top makes a lot of sense and you have plenty of room there. If you want a third sink and second dishwasher, you could still have them on the peninsula, but a smaller peninsula. Here are a few ideas...sorry they're not more clear! {{gwi:1924168}}From Farmhouse plans
{{gwi:1924169}}From Farmhouse plans

I love these windows, from Laura Calder's kitchen (which I've posted many, many times LOL) Her cook top is on the island, too! {{gwi:1407444}}From Lavender Lass farmhouse pictures

I really like this kitchen (with fridge where the range is) and maybe butcher block on the peninsula? {{gwi:1924170}}From Farmhouse plans

Thanks Lavender!

You are always full of creative ideas. I especially like your images - such nice kitchens. The problem is we already have one of the windows installed and it is a double (one side fixed one side operable) and we have ordered a twin window to the existing (can't be cancelled and can't be mulled together with other due to beam overhead). In fact, given this beam, we probably would have had trouble placing a wider triple window in the best view spot anyway. The windows are brand new ones made of fiberglass triple pane for our Canadian winters, so I have to use the windows we have (too much $$$ to waste). The view from these windows is okay from top window and adequate from bottom window - nothing gorgeous like in your images I am afraid. We have better views from the south and north (kitchen faces west and takes in the neighbour's house and neighbour's backyard). We really want the light from the windows to provide natural light for the length of this long kitchen, which is one other reason we have spread them out.

For quite a while with my various double island layouts, I had the sink under the window like you show. I have to admit when I look out that window in my house under construction and see my neighbour on his deck I do feel like I am intruding on his privacy. I think I will be happier doing dishes from the peninsula where I can look into the room, see the TV in great room, or look beyond to the very large room in dining room where I can see my kids play on their climber in the backyard.

I am going to try to re position the DWs as you show them so I can shorten the peninsula.

Thanks again lavender. Sorry I can't replicate some of the good ideas you shared in sketches and images. I appreciate your time!!

Carol

Carol,

I have been following your iterations. A couple of things I would like to comment on

- I would really like to see counterspace behind the cook as opposed to steam oven and wall ovens. I like the update by Lavendar Lass to make it a longer window run. It will give you a place to set things, a convenient secondary prep and also it would be nice for someone else to be able to check and deal with the oven without causing a trip hazard for the cook at the cooktop. That corridor looks like it could be a choke point.

- I would probably prefer the prep sink a bit further away from the island seating. It would be nice for whoever is sitting there drinking wine or eating pancakes to not look at a sink. Even swapping the dry trash and the sink will provide some visual distance. You could also consider a customfit cutting board like williamsen did.

Gwlolo,

Good to hear from you.

Thank you very much about your commentary about the prep sink adjustment. I will play with those changes and try to give the seated person a bit more breathing room. The cutting board over the prep is an excellent idea.

As stated in my reply to Lavender I am unable to swap out the windows as she proposed. I agree a set of triple windows would have looked nice, however I am hoping having two windows spread out will help bring light to the whole length of the kitchen which is 20 feet. Currently we only have the top window installed (other has been ordered) and it is dark in the bottom half of the kitchen. I also agree the ovens behind the main prep space is not perfect, but honestly the best place we can find for the steam oven that must be placed as high as possible due to plumbing issues. The main oven could move, but it is nice to have that a little higher than counter height too.

Our secondary prep space was planned to be zone H under top window. Zone B area would be another possibility as secondary prep. Snack prep has planned to be in zone E also under bottom window. Thanks again for your time Gwlolo

Everyone,

Any comments on aisle sizes or any of the questions at the top of the post? I so look forward to your opinions on these listed issues as that is what I am most worried about.

Carol

This post was edited by OntarioMom on Sat, Jul 27, 13 at 10:34

Carol - Which steam oven are you planning to use? I have a Gagg Combi installed 36in above the floor which was permitted by the manufacturer. That gives me enough space for a Oven rack cabinet above, a 27in oven below and a drawer for oven accessories.

My point being, I would swap out brands of appliances to make the layout work. In the tag end of my own remodel, I have realized that the order of priorities that serve me best is Layout followed by function and lastly form.

This post was edited by GWlolo on Fri, Jul 26, 13 at 13:25

Hey GWlolo,

Thanks for your help, I appreciate you taking the time to think about my kitchen.

We already own the Gagg combi steam -- an older model. We can't afford to replace it for another model or a different brand. I understand that we have just enough space in the basement ceilings i-joists under kitchen to run the plumbing for this steam oven at the height shown on plan (should not go lower). We haven't bought the regular oven yet, but we are leaning towards an Electrolux as they have nice slide out racks for ease of use under counter. There is no place to stack our two ovens given the constraints, unless we put it across near the dumb waiter which I would find too out of the way.

Did you say you installed the bottom of your Gagg Combi at 36 inches or the top of the unit at 36 inches? If you have the unit fully under a standard counter don't you find the controls super low?

Honestly, I am happy with the basic layout (where the major appliances and windows are located) having moved things on paper around for two years with help from GW and my interior designer and seeing and evaluating all the permutations possible. Once we tried this basic layout I stopped agonizing as I knew it was the layout I wanted.

What I am hoping to do is move forward from the locations of the major appliances or windows and start to plan out the nitty gritty.

Any thoughts anyone on the questions I listed in my initial post?

This post was edited by OntarioMom on Sat, Jul 27, 13 at 10:37

Oh, I see what you mean! That makes a lot of sense :)

What if you move the sink over towards the corner of the peninsula and have a dishwasher on the left (dish plunk area) and another one on the other counter? Would that work? I've seen some neat recycle/garbage corner units that might work... {{gwi:1924171}}From Farmhouse plans

Lavender,

You and I think alike. I was thinking about having the second DW about where you placed it so the peninsula could shorten. Thanks so much for drawing it up. The only drawback with that second DW is it is under the secondary prep space/occasional baking spot. I'm not bothered by that, but have read to try not to put DW in a prep space. Oh well, no layout is perfect. I like the shorter peninsula better.

Carol

I hope your DH is doing better!

Anyone have a chance to check my questions listed on my opening posted? The ones I am most concerned about from my original list are:

a) if aisle widths are okay

e) if I should consider narrowing the island where the seats back to the major passage way to give some more room behind the stools.

f) if I have the island set up most efficiently. Bmorepanic drew it in for me with sink and cooktop pushed together. I wasn't sure I had seen that arrangement before, so was unsure if it would be better or not. Also, if things are tight and the island needs shrinking, I would consider going down to a 30 inch cooktop.

P.S. We will be moving the second DW to the location Lavender drew in to shorten the peninsula.

Thanks in advance.

Carol

Nothing wrong with your aisle widths. "Rehearse" those if you can. Sometimes, you can do "the blue tape special" in another room - using blue tape markings and tables or cardboard for island edges. This should give you some confidence about your choices.

A 60" aisle with seats becomes a 36" walkway behind the seating when the seats are filled. Plenty to walk by without getting tangled up in chair legs. Using the snack pantry will need to be a little careful, but perfectly do-able. The freezer doesn't seem like it would be an issue because the chair space stops right when the freezer starts.

In case you've not cooked on one, take some pots to the appliance store (ones that you'd typically use for something like Sunday dinner). Practice on a 30" Cooktop and a 36" cooktop. A nominal 30" cooktop is a smaller depth and sometimes width than the top of a 30" range.

The location of a prep sink completely depends on what makes you comfortable.

Glad to have your comments, Bmorepanic! We are in the process of mocking up the kitchen layout with furniture, boxes etc. I will do what you said to see if I can go with the 30 inch cooktop -- good tip.

What do you think about the second DW around the corner where Lavender shows it? The peninsula with two DW and big sink was getting too long. The tape markings made it clear that we didn't want to walk around such a long peninsula.

Also, we might make the peninsula a bit deeper with the back part elevated (perhaps not curved as shown). I think an elevated portion (even if it is just wall thinkness) would help block dishes from dining area, and prevent splashes as it will former a bit of a backsplash behind the sink. I would go thicker for a pass through, but that would mean shrinking the island.

Thanks for all your help, Bmorepanic!

Carol

Here is a link that shows what I was thinking about the slight elevated area/backsplash behind the sink on the peninsula. What do you think about this everyone?

Carol

Here is a link that might be useful: [elevated area behind sink[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/traditional-kitchen-traditional-kitchen-phvw-vp~616101)

We had a couple more ideas that we are exploring. Please let me know if you think any of these ideas has merit.

a)Can we place the steam oven on a corner microwave shelf (in zone B)?

b)We think we will move most of the dishes (except dinner plates and cutlery) to the glass cabinet. That way the dishes are much handier for the snackers and handier to the fridge for those getting a quick drink. Yes, they will be further from the DWs, but nothing is perfect. With one DW moved under top window that will help a bit (see newer floor plan below).

c)If we move the steam oven somehow to the corner, and find a different spot for the regular oven we could store baking/cooking ingrediants in drawers under the glass cabinet. We still are not sure where to store food ingredients that need preparing (i.e. baking supplies, pasta, soup, but not pre-made snacks).

I would appreciate any comments on the above. This is all so overwhelming. Thanks!

Carol

Newer plan showing DW moved to shorten peninsula.

Just found this corner pantry. Would we be able to do this in our kitchen especially if we take a bit of space from the dining room closet? Obviously, with this plan the ovens would need to stay where they are marked.

Carol

Here is a link that might be useful: [corner pantry idea[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/design-75-traditional-kitchen-miami-phvw-vp~689336)

Carol- That corner pantry is nice! :)

I've been thinking about your kitchen...and I have a few concerns. If these are not a problem for you, then please disregard.

First, I really like the idea of your dish cabinet being above the ovens. The problem is that the current layout has people in your main work area...not only putting away dishes, but to get water glasses, etc.

And, the fridge is over on the other side of the kitchen, which will bring more people walking through your main work area. So, I made a few changes...

The fridge is now on the 'back' wall, with the microwave...and the baking area is in that corner. The dishes are in the cabinet, between the windows and the cooktop is now on the peninsula. The prep sink is in the corner (trash between) with first dishwasher on the other side, by the cabinet.

The island has the other sink and dishwasher, with dish storage on cooktop end and trash storage by fridge/baking area. There should still be plenty of seating for at least three.

By the fridge, you could add a little pantry or maybe bookshelves (facing people as they walk in) for cookbooks and extra display. {{gwi:1924173}}From Farmhouse plans

Oops! I just realized t that without refrigerator drawers, the fridge is TOO FAR from the cooktop! Wish I knew how to edit posts :(

How about this, instead? You could swap the fridge and pantry, if that's a better layout. Just another idea :) {{gwi:1924174}}From Farmhouse plans

Hi Lavender,

Thanks for thinking about my kitchen, especially with all you have had on your plate with Sammy, your DH, etc. It is very kind of you to try different versions for me and to use your creativity to think outside the box. Your ideas do bring efficiency to the design.

Unfortunately, my DH really does not want a wall blocking the living room and kitchen (i.e. the new back wall you have drawn). I am not too keen on blocking that area either. There is a nice view from the living room picture window and we expect to use that room for our youngest to play (more short term as they grown up fast). If the wall was there she would not play there as she needs to be very close to people as she plays. Longer term, we don't want the living room cut off from the rest of the house and want it more open concept as well. So that does rule out the new wall there, sorry.

I think we will explore the concept of a shallow down to counter easy reach cupboard in the corner for food ingredients, and leave the steam oven where it is. After some more debate tonight, it seems best to use the corner for food, so the glass cabinet can be mostly used for dishes which will look far prettier. You might be interested to know the design on the glass cabinet will be the same as our new front door design which I love.

Overall, I am not too bothered by snackers getting dishes from the cupboard behind me, or using their designated snack area under the bottom window. The aisle behind me will average around 49 inches. The snack food will be well away from me and on the other side of the main passage way, which will be a big attraction (pantry holding cereal, crackers, cookies and other foods not needing much preparation). They will not need to get into the corner area shallow pantry proposed above, as they won't want floor, oils, etc that I plan to store in my corner cooking pantry. I need them off the area against the cooktop and prep sink with counter inbetween, and I can share the fridge with them. No layout is perfect. I think I can accept the cons with the layout I have proposed and continue to try to tweak the design best I can. Good for you to challenge me to think through the cons so I can be aware of what they are in advance and be sure they are acceptable.

Thanks again for your help and ideas.

Carol

Bridging cabinets with a cooktop is "iffy" if you also want a top drawer. Cooktops have a wide variety of depths and some clearance. You can do it, but the drawer may need to be shortened or narrowed.

I thought of what's shown in the drawing (or some such) for a couple of reasons - but mostly the dishwasher placement.

I'm going to explain that I'm a little bit of a walking disaster area - if there's a way to run into something, I'll find it. So, this may observation may never pertain to you the way it does to me.

I would trip over the open dishwasher, and more than once. It's got two issues - it's between the main work area and the cleanup area for dropping off stuff. If I'm washing pots while dh is loading/unloading, there is the potential that I'd step back (a mouse, a bee, a burn), completely forgetting that its door is open. I'm a pretty good patient, but I've had enough stitches.

The other reason for trying to ditch the peninsula is you guys both objecting to the bottom being closed off. IF you think you'd be bothered by that, I'll bet walking around the peninsula would start to feel very old.

Sorry for the spidertype - just saw it in preview. You can still raise the ovens to 42-48". The other notes are the entire island could be reversed (top to bottom). It would move the seating up and away from the travel aisle.

And I was thinking about a tall cabinet on the very end (and it could be wider) that had doors on both sides for dish storage. The cabinet itself would hide the cleanup area from the dining room. If that seemed a bit much, you could always spec glass doors.

Bmorepanic,

Thanks you for your help once again! Your design is good. I can see many excellent features in it. It reminds me of some of the two island designs we played around with, but with one bigger island. The flow between dining room and kitchen would be wonderful with your plan, which was one reason we resisted a peninsula for so long.

However, I am now too happy with the L plus big island concept to let go of that idea. I am not bothered by the peninsula between kitchen and dining room (although shorter is better). I like the idea of having that block of the peninsula when I am entertaining and we are dining. I also really, like the idea of doing dishes in the peninsula spot more than against the wall (as you know I am not happy against a wall -- too jumpy for that -- wall spots are good for DH though). From the peninsula, I can chat with those at the dining room table, take in the fireplace, watch TV or look out (from a distance) at two large windows and a set of french doors). I can even see my younger kids on their climber in the backyard. When my teen son understood he could watch TV while he washed pots he suddenly was keen to do dishes -- priceless! Watching my neighbour on his deck out the side kitchen window does not have that much appeal. Also, by the time we do dishes it is often dark outside so you can't see anything out a window anyway.

I see your issues with the DW around the corner. LOL about the bumps and leg jabs. I could see myself with some bloody legs, so, thanks to you, I am not going to place the second DW around the corner after reading your comments. I have it in the latest design (see below) as two DW together which allows a shorter peninsula than if we put one on each side of the sink. The reason for this is I would not want one DW right up against the corner which would block the storage above. I can imagine no time when we would be organized enough to be loading two DWs at the same time. I imagine one would be full running through a cycle or be in need of unloading, while the other was in receiving mode. So for me two side by side does work.

I do appreciate the time you have taken to think through my kitchen with me!

Below is the newest version. I think we might consider making use of a cart for distribution of groceries to their various corners, and even to help unload dishes to the glass cabinet. When entertaining, we could also clear the table with a cart. I realize that our DWs are not close to glass, bowls and small plates storage which will be in the glass cabinet. However, the benefit of having the dishes close to the snack zone is worth the hassle of unloading. Just can't have it all in a 20 foot long kitchen! We also plan to make use of a Kornerking drawer/lazy susan device in the corner for baking/cooking ingredients combined with a easy reach L cabinet in the upper corner area for food as well (not snack food).

I went through a very long list of typical kitchen jobs and assigned each an area for completion so I can figure out what to store where (and hence make progress on the size of drawer, shelf, etc to incorporate). I was able to see that most of our kitchen tasks will not require too much walking and zones will not cross too much.

If you see any other tweaks, please let me know?

Carol

I am curious why wouldn't move the sink to the middle and have a dishwasher on either side? This would be a good way to avoid drips enroute from sink to the DW. For the corner near the sink, have you considered accessing base storage from the dining room side? Maybe this is already that way in your plan. For the uppers in this corner will it be a hutch coming down to the counter? That will help increase accessibility with L shaped shelves.

Good questions, GWlolo!

We initially had the sink with DW on either side. However, we realized we needed to leave say 20 inches out from corner for the right hand DW if we wanted to be able to access shelves when DW was being unloaded or loaded This lead to a longer peninsula than we have shown. In other words we can have a shorter peninsula and have full access to corner cupboard if we go with both DWs on left. We will rarely, if ever be loading both DWs at once, so drips won't be a big issue. With two together, we also have a larger surface area when clearing the dining room table to plunk dirty dishes awaiting loading.

The lower corner cabinet will be from KornerKing (see link below) and items will be retrieved from the kitchen side. It will be used to store baking ingredients. We decided not to have the L easy reach upper cabinet down to counter so as to be able to use that counter space for a clean dish rack. I was inspired by a recent thread on upper cabinet storage where nice "easy reach cabinets" were posted.

Thanks for thinking about my kitchen and posting your thoughts, GWlolo.

Carol

Here is a link that might be useful: Kornerking

Okay, I have a few more thoughts/concerns (will they ever stop). I am very happy with where the appliances and major pieces are. Overall, I am pleased with how this design will work for us. I particularly like the clean-up sink where it is.

However, I do have a few more worries.

1)Now that I have the clean-up sink over to the right, will that preclude a helper from retrieving newly washed items to help with the drying ( we only occasionally hand dry the pots). Pots/pans will drip dry on the right, so I wonder if it is too squishy. The reason the DWs are together is to avoid the issue of blocking the corner upper and lower cabinet and hence to avoid having an overly long peninsula. We know we will never be organized enough to have both DWs ready for loading so we will not be loading two DWs are the same time. The corner cabinet (KornerKIng) takes 36 inches of space from each corner. Any thoughts here on the DWs and exact sink spot?

2)Now that I have a peninsula, the roughed in light switches in the dining room may have to change. I have them on the full wall right before the dining room closet. We did this when we were planning more of a galley style with the two islands. Do you think we should build a partial wall behind the peninsula and put the switches on that back? Right now we have all our switches at 42 inches high from bottom of switch. We were going to do some sort of back splash behind the sink for a bit of a visual block while seated at the dining room table anyway, so we could make it a proper half height wall.

Above (July 31 17:20) is the most up to date plan, although I am still working on the pantry/freezer run.

Thanks,

Carol