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Kitchen Island Clearance Dimensions

jeff2013
10 years ago

I am building a new house and received my preliminary design from the architect.

The central island has clearnce dimensions as follows
1. 4ft 7 1/8inches to the right work zone
2. 4ft, to the left clean up zone
3. 3ft, to the top frig
4. 30inches, to the bottom dining hallway

I would like to have up to two people work in the kitchen so I appreciate the space in the work/clean up zones. On the other hand, it seems a little too excessive to me. How about 3'6" and 4'? The extra 1ft saved can be put into the great room.

Any suggestions regarding the clearance and other layout issues? Thanks!

Comments (150)

  • jeff2013
    Original Author
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    @Debra,

    Thank you for your feedback on the aisle sizes. I also think that 42" of both DW/sink and oven/snack areas will work very well. I even tried 36" and it was doable but less comfortable to use.

    48" in the cooking zone seems more than enough to me. I plan on it as I see the fridge on the side, and the through passing from fridge to sink.

    So I do not get it when the architect said my aisles are tight and insists on 54" working aisles (ideally 60" he said).

    JF

    This post was edited by jeff2013 on Thu, Aug 1, 13 at 9:44

  • jeff2013
    Original Author
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Opps. repeated post deleted.

    This post was edited by jeff2013 on Thu, Aug 1, 13 at 9:46

  • debrak2008
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Mock it up. Thats what we did. We pretended to be working back to back at the island and the sink. We felt comfortable with the 42" and as I said that works great for us.

    I won't comment any further on the architect, LOL.

  • badgergal
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I have a 48 inch aisle between my island and my cooktop. I have my one and only sink in the island and it is across from the cooktop. One person can be at the sink and one at the cooktop without bumping butts. The is plenty of room to walk through if someone is working at either location. There is room to walk through if the dishwasher is open or if the drawers on the cooktop wall are open. And since it is an island there is always the alternate route around the island that can be used. I think you could definitely get by with less than 54 inches on any aisles that do not have seating to contend with.

  • jeff2013
    Original Author
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    deleted

    This post was edited by jeff2013 on Thu, Aug 1, 13 at 13:32

  • jeff2013
    Original Author
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    @Debra,

    It is a very good idea to mock things up. I did exactly that last night with a mobile island. It is just myself though. I would do another one with both my wife and me in the aisles to see how things work out for us.

    @Badgergal,

    Good to know that you have 48 inch aisle between island and cooktop and you see plenty of room for two persons to work on opposite sides or for people to walk through while one is working. That is the same space that I am planning for so what you told me is very reassuring. Thank you for sharing your experience.

    JF

  • Ivan I
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Jeff,

    One of the mistakes I made with my kitchen is that even though it's not small, I end out 'wanting' to do all the prep in a small space. (on the island between the sink and the cooktop)

    I promise you will need / want a bigger prep area to the right of that island sink. Plus, it seems / feels to me like your house needs a bigger kitchen island. You have gone from having two islands to a too tiny one!

    So... what to do?

    I think Controlfreakercs had the best idea:

    >> If you got rid of the idea of oven and counter along that wall altogether and went with a range, you'd have a functional island again.

    Here's what would be my reason for moving the oven to under the range: In the past 2 weeks, the frequency of use in my kitchen'appliances' has been:
    (most frequent)dish sink
    Refridgerator
    Breville Toaster Oven
    prep sink
    Microwave
    Cooktop
    (least frequent)big oven

    The big oven gets used only 2 times / week, and everything else gets used daily. (Weekly I roast big platters of veggies with lemon and and a dusting parmesean. Then into ziplocs they go where people can grab them for snacks and fast re-heating.)

    Therefore, my oven should be in the LEAST convenient place in my kitchen when prioritized vs all the other appliances.

    It would be tough to prep my big platters of veggies on your island, and that's where I'd want to do it.

    The opportunity this creates: that wall could then be a feature wall or an art wall. I think it's spectacular when people make room for art in their kitchen. When I say "art" I don't mean just a classic painting, I mean whatever strikes you/ your family as something beautiful to look at or enjoy. Then it's not just room that's mostly about function.

    I'm trying to think if there are any ultra low-profile (low depth) kitchen purposes that wall could serve besides art.

    It would be perfect for art combined with a very low profile ultra chic and functional message center: I was at Best Buy today and saw the Dell XPS 18. It's like an 18" diagonal tablet !!! That would be one serious photo display on that wall that could also function as a family calendar (we use Cozi from any browser or smartphone). Just ideas to play with. And best of all you don't have to make any decisions now about it **except**: Put an electrical outlet HIGH on that wall. Assume it will be covered up if unneeded by art or something low profile. But if you don't have an outlet high, you'll have unsightly cords. Electrical cords and beauty don't co-exist.

    Another example use of that wall (where the oven currently is): You could decorate that wall or a part of that wall seasonally with christmas lights, easter lights, St. Patricks day lights ;-) , kids accomplishments du jour, etc.

  • Ivan I
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    In fact, if you increase the size of that island such that you have a 4" (yes, 48") walkway between it and your feature wall, you probably now have room in the island to put the oven there if you wanted to. I've seen pictures of 2 ovens side by side in their islands.

    But I'd rather have it under the cooktop, and use the island for precious drawer space. You will always need / want more drawers. Where is your microwave?

  • jeff2013
    Original Author
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    @Mare,
    Thank you so much for your thoughts! I agree that a bigger landing area for the prep sink shall work better.

    The prep sink is about 20” wide, and that gives me about 24” counter space to the right and only 6.5” to the left. We are short of at least 1ft to the left. While I can play with different ideas of using a smaller prep sink, placing the prep sink in the middle or pushing it further to the edge, the main limitation is that the island narrow side faces the work zone. For example, I can certainly extend the length of the island but that would not help.

    Re: Island Size
    The island has a size of about 4ft wide and 6 ft long. It seems to be a good size to me. Maybe the reason is that we don’t have a fixed island in our current house. We only have a tiny 18” by 27” mobile island.
    A wider island will provide bigger surfaces to both sides of the prep sink and also storage space under it (even though the more efficient way of increasing island storage here is to make it longer not wider).

    Re: Wall Oven vs Range
    Moving the oven to under the range and getting rid of the counter along that wall would increase the island width by 1-2ft, resulting in a squarer 5ft by 6ft or 6ft by 6ft island. That would enable a more desirable island size and prep area discussed above.
    I am open to this idea and would do a drawing based on that. Again, we don’t have a wall oven and my wife sees an opportunity of having one when we are building a new house.
    Another issue is how to make that wall look right and you have already given me some good suggestions on that. I used to have layouts with 1ft deep drawers/shelves/cabinets along that side to match the part beside the fridge.

    Re: Microwave
    Right now, the microwave is on top of the single wall oven. So that side of the counter space would be used as a snack area too.

    Re: Pantry Shelving
    Besides the aisle sizes, another comment from the architect is that I now have a much reduced size in pantry and he said that we still need to do shelving and the wall with the pocket door would not be able to put shelves because of the mechanism how pocket door works.
    Attached is a drawing with the pantry set up.
    1. Glass sliding door of 32”.
    2. Shelves on three side walls with depth of 6”, 10”, and 20” and linear length of 29”, 47”, AND 29” respectively.
    3. The walkway is 47” by 27”.

    My concerns / questions
    A. I am concerned about the tight empty space inside the pantry. I do need to turn around to place/retrieve big items from the right side facing exterior wall. I may do a mock up using some closet in my current house.

    B. I am not sure if the sizes of the shelves (6/10/20) are OK.

    Next, I still need to work out the areas of laundry/powder/mudroom to see if we can steal some space of the shower (or get rid of the shower) and the 5ft by 6ft ‘hallway’ to powder/laundry back to enlarge the laundry.

    Let me know if you have any comments. Thanks a lot! JF

    This post was edited by jeff2013 on Fri, Aug 2, 13 at 17:40

  • ontariomom
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hi Jeff,

    That pantry is certainly going to hold tons. I do know by researching for my pantry that 20 inches would be seen as too deep, unless you are doing pullouts. If this was my kitchen, I would prefer more kitchen space and less pantry space. Are you planning on putting any large appliances in the pantry (e.g. freezer) in which case that will change my opinion on the 20 inch side?

    Be sure to do a Google search using the words gardenweb and pantry and you will come up with lots of good threads talking about how to design a pantry.

    Good luck.

    Carol

  • jeff2013
    Original Author
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Carol,

    Thank you for that information. I was not even thinking about the pantry space until the architect told me there may not be enough storage space inside the pantry and there is a problem with the wall holding the pocket door. Then I started to worry about the details about the pantry setup.

    Yes. I did some googling and found out that the max shelf depth without a pullout is said to be 18" and most items requires no more than 9". I did a 20" on the short side as I was trying to be more than enough. I may reduce a few inches there but it won't save me much space. I also think that side is difficult to access and most items won't go there. A bigger depth may help a little bit for us to reach some bulky ones that have to be there. No. There won't be a freezer. Even the stand mixer shall find their place in the kitchen not the pantry I guess.

    JF

  • ontariomom
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Did you find this pantry thread from GW? It links to many other pantry threads. There is one on walk-in pantries that might be suitable. Have you figured out and then measured what you are storing in the pantry? You will likely find that even 18 inch shelf depth is too much.

    Are you and your DW sure you want a large walk-in pantry instead of more space in the kitchen?

    Hopefully, you will hear from some fans of large pantries. I am not one of them.

    Keep plugging at it. I am trying to design my pantry this weekend too. It is a small reach in one, and my kitchen is quite a bit larger than yours.

    Carol

    Here is a link that might be useful: GW pantry thread

  • lavender_lass
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Jeff- I'm sure you've already addressed these issues, but it's now such a long thread...I thought it would be easier to ask again :)

    A few things...Are those windows on either side of the cooktop? Could you move the sink there (add another window in the middle) and move the cooktop to the other location?

    This would allow you to see the breakfast area, but still have a vent...and prep on the long side of the island. {{gwi:1920326}}From Farmhouse plans

    I show this all the time...lots of windows over the sink, in Laura Calder's kitchen! {{gwi:1885624}}From Lavender Lass farmhouse pictures

    Another idea...if you do decide to not use the wall oven and make the island bigger, you could put the table on the end. I really like this kitchen! Maybe have a seating area in the nook (couple of chairs) that would tuck into the curve or bay? {{gwi:1434537}}From Farmhouse plans

  • jeff2013
    Original Author
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    @Carol,

    Thank you for the link to the pantry thread from GW. I will check it out. My current kitchen has a small reach in pantry too and it works very well for us. I don't think we have particular needs for a large pantry. I would like to have a lot of drawers instead of cabinets in my kitchen. I don't have a good idea about the storage placement yet. Just want to finalize the layout first. When the architect mentioned that my pantry is too small that worried me (looks like that I am worried about too many things). Therefore I took sometime to look into the issue. I feel good to learn that I was well covered there.

    I saw your kichen layout and it is so beautiful and apparently well-planned by you and the KD. Very professional drawing. Glad that you are making good progress with your kitchen.

    @Lavender,

    Thank you for your drawing and those beautiful pictures. Laura T did a similar mock up for me ealier but she stroke out the idea when she saw the 2nd floor room above the range hood there making outward venting impossible or diffcult.

    I did a drawing based on this idea anyway. The aisles are 4ft on cooking side, 4ft on sink/dw side and 3.5ft on oven/snack side. I extended it a little bit so now it is 3'8" wide and 7'6" long. I did a curved flooring section to match those of the round island and the curved breakfast.

    I will follow up with the architect. Hoepfully this is doable as it is below the edge of the exterior wall on 2nd floor gameroom and we have 2'10" floor spacing.

    I was told by the architect that the widnows are placed over high cabinets so they are just for natural lighting and not outside view. Not sure how this works.

    Regarding the oven, I am still keeping it as of now. I will need to compare the two layouts (assuming it is a go from the architect) and choose one.

    JF

  • ontariomom
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hi Jeff,

    I would look into whether you can have ventilation for a floor that has a room above. I would imagine you can, just based pn what we have been told (we are able to do it). However, I could be 100% wrong as your situation may preclude it. I do think having the stove closer to your prep sink works better (in other words the way it is above is a better spot for the cooktop to my untrained eye). As per the windows, do you have the option of a lower window or two so you can see outside? I think this is the side of your house, but still there would more to see at the sink than a blank wall.

    As per our plans we have worked with a interior designer who has helped us immensely with our house design as a whole. However, she has not seen the recent kitchen plans which are quite different from our old two island concept that she helped us with. Our recent plans grew from several rounds of feedback from GW and lots and lots of time from our end (like you are doing with your plans). My husband draws them up in Corel Draw.

    BTW, I really don't think you have room for more than 2 stools on the end of your island as you need 24 inches of width for each diner. The shape for the seating spot would have to widen some how to do three.

    Have you seen the NKBA guildelines? These guidelines are great for planning smart kitchens.

    Carol

  • debrak2008
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I really didn't look at the actual size of your island before. What is the total length to the longest point?

    I'm going to take a photo of my with stools to give you some idea of how yours will look. Mine is 70" by 42" and radiused at one end just like yours is drawn. As Carol referred to, we have 2 stools and the curved part and 1 on each side.

    I'll post the photo which should explain.

  • debrak2008
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Here is a photo.

    FYI Green designs suggested our radius (was doing a rectangle) and some very smart people here did the math to determine the radius and how much space each diner would have. I believe it came out that each seat got 24" or close to it. Since my islands width is only 2" less than yours there is no way to get 3 seated people in there. I can say that we have had 4 people in those seats and while comfortable you can't fit in another.
    Also note our stools are backless which make it easier to slide under. If you want a back, they do take up space.

    I will say that my DD has had up to a total of 6 people around the island. Teenagers don't really care how cramped they are and it wasn't for an extended time.

  • ontariomom
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    If you can move the cooktop to behind the laundry as shown most recently by you this morning, I think that would allow you to increase your laundry area and change the full bath back to powder as you would not need to have a view from the cooking area like you tend to see with cleaning sinks. I think that is when you lost your room in the laundry so your clean-up sink was not blocked by a wall.


    Carol

  • angela12345
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Laundry chute in playroom . . . of course it will get used !! As kids we used to love jumping/sliding down the laundry chute at my friends house. Having the chute in the playroom makes it a perfect location for that. I don't know that it will often get used for clothes though because it is so far from the upstairs baths & bedrooms. I don't mind the jog into the kitchen. Corners are so often wasted space anyway in kitchens.

    See layout picture at the end of all this text.

    I like a lot of the ideas by laurat88 on Wed, Jul 24, 13 at 12:49. And I like it more than the last one shown in the thread by jeff2013 on Sun, Jul 28, 13 at 17:16. I used the same dimensions you guys already had used. Here is what I have put together ...

    Leave garage door where you both had it.

    Changed location of door to bath so you cannot see sink or toilet when door is open unless standing right at the door. And so you cannot see into bath when sitting at island or breakfast table. Ewwwww

    I am showing a 1x3'6" window high on the wall above the shower in the bath and a standard window in the laundry.

    A standard bath size is 5x8. At 5x9 you have room for a wider than normal tub/shower and room for a wider vanity. I have 32" door going into bath so it will be (somewhat) accessible for a wheelchair (this is not ADA compliant bath which also requires 5x5 clear floor area in the room, but at least a wheelchair can roll in there if ever needed, which is better than normal 24 28 or 30" bath door). A standard tub or shower unit is 32x60 or wide ones at 36x60. Will you use a manufactured unit or will this be custom tiled ? Right now you have the room interior at 5'1.5" wide, which means you will have to build the wall out a little bit (1.5") so the width there is only 5' for a manufactured unit to fit. I have showing a standard 21" deep vanity which is 3'6" wide. Also shown is 36x60 shower.

    Outside the bath is a 15x21 cabinet/desk/small table/drop zone for mail, keys, purse, etc. Partially hidden behind the corner.

    I got rid of the large bookcase which basically turned a lot of your extra large laundry room space into a hallway. I changed it to a smaller, under the counter bookcase that faces the garage door.

    I have incorporated the cubby/lockers inside the laundry room. Cubbies stay MESSY. I don't think you would want them on display in that hallway so you can look at the mess while you are eating breakfast and your guests can see them from the Great Room and anytime they use the bath. I have a pocket door to laundry right now, but it could alternately be swing door - close door when needed to hide the mess. There are three 18" wide lockers and standard base/upper cabinet at the end of them. That could be changed, of course to make them wider or more narrow, etc. Across from them are coat hooks with shelf(s) above and it would be good to have shoe shelves below.

    One thing about this laundry room - it is very wide. You have a very wide walkway going down the middle there. You could easily use some of that space in the kitchen. Although, it would mess up the location of your laundry chute. As shown, I have 4'6" between laundry sink cabinet and front of washer dryer, after allowing 31" for depth to face of washer dryer (29" pulled out 2" to allow room for hoses, etc behind). If depth of cubby/lockers was 31" (to bring even with face of washer dryer), and the shelves at the coat hooks were 12" you would still have 3'6" between the cubbies and the coat hook shelves. Use a dryer vent box behind the dryer to allow the duct to be recessed in the wall and allow the dryer to be pushed flush to the wall. Be sure this is installed at the correct height for where the vent comes out the back of your dryer !!

    Laundry from chute should land in something. I suggest a very large laundry bin pullout drawer. Or, maybe it lands at counter height with a door to access and under where it lands you could separate dirties into whites darks etc (a big bin drawer with dividers built in it or a few baskets for separating into). If you don't do a dumbwaiter, have somewhere in the laundry for each person in the household to have a small laundry basket. Their clean folded clothes go in their basket and they are responsible for carrying their own clothes to their room and putting away. For example, each person's basket could be on a shelf in their locker. http://www.google.com/search?q=laundry+room+baskets&tbm=isch

    Shown above sink is a hanging rod. Clothes out of dryer go straight on hangers. Saves time because you don't fold, carry to room, unfold, hang. Also helps prevent wrinkles because they go straight on hanger. Rod can also be used to hang clothes to drip dry. Upper cabinet beside rod. Upper cabinets above washer dryer going all the way down to the cubbies (I forgot to draw them in, sorry).

    Do you have top load washer or front load ? If front load, you will have the space on top of them for folding, or you could have continuous counter going from cabinet all the way across the top of washer & dryer. If front load, make sure which way yours open and plan for connections to be on the correct side (left or right). Also, I have front load and prefer them to both open from the middle. Makes it easier when transferring wet clothes from washer to dryer. My dryer door was reversible so I was able to put washer on left and dryer on right. Cubbies and cabinet could be deeper than 24" to be even with front of washer & dryer. When planning this, be sure to plan room for depth needed for hoses behind washer & dryer. As another option you could have two(!) sets of front load washer dryer and stack them. At the least, you could build with connections for this for "one day". If you stack, you can have cabinets above the stacks, or you could just leave them open on top. When stacked they are only about 6 feet tall (some a couple inches more than this), so still very easy to reach the controls on the top unit, even at 5'2" tall (that's my height). If you stack, make sure you order the washer as one left hinge and one right hinge, same with the dryers. That way when stacked they will all open to the middle.

    Since this is new construction, wherever the fridge ends up, plan for it to be recessed into wall. If you allow a recessed area about 5-6" deep behind where fridge will go, you can use standard depth fridge (waaay cheaper) and it will look counter depth. One way to do this, framers can frame it out like a 'doorway' behind the fridge and fridge tucks back into the space. From the other side, the wall is finished/sheetrocked like normal and you cannot tell the difference.

    Do you have pets ? Where will they be fed ? If cat, where will litter box go ? If dog, is he crated, where will crate go ? You could plan space for these things in laundry. You could even build a cat/doggie door so they could still go in the laundry room when the door is closed. If you do banquet seating, another option is to have the dog bed located under the banquet. http://www.google.com/search?q=dog+crate+cabinet&tbm=isch

    What are dimensions of garage ? I am confused about the garage doors. At an absolute bare minimum you need 18x18 for 2 cars side by side and that is an extremely tight garage. And likely not long enough for a truck, especially not a crew cab truck (2013 GMC Sierra 2500 Crew Cab Truck is 21.67 ft long and that is not counting space at the ends so you can pull in far enough without hitting the wall).

    Also, where is the door to the back porch/patio ? I am showing an option for that on the wall perpendicular to the garage door. Gives quick access from the backyard to the bath if coming in muddy (or just 'need' quick access : )

    If you made the wall for the bath & laundry even with where the garage wall jogs out for the water heater, you wouldn't have the odd roofline above it. It would likely give you extra square footage without costing any or much more because of the savings in the roof.

    edit because pic didn't show up first time

    This post was edited by angela12345 on Sat, Aug 3, 13 at 14:48

  • lavender_lass
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Angela- Great use of the laundry room, for extra storage! The cubbies and hooks are wonderful and very good point about pets. I have kitties and finding a good spot for their food and litter box is always a big part of any remodeling plan :)

  • ontariomom
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    That is a much better use of space in the entry/laundry mud area, Angela. I am not sure you read Jeff's reply to my question as to whether he would use a shower in this location. However, it sounded like he only put the shower there cause there was space in the bathroom to use up (in other words it sounds like he didn't need it there). How about pushing your bath design in so the toilet is on the outside wall and the shower is eliminated. That would give a slightly roomier entry area/drop zone at the garage door?

    Carol

  • Ivan I
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    That island that lavender_lass drew on Wed, Jul 24, 13 at 21:51 and you on Thu, Jul 25, 13 at 23:19 is perfect. Because
    - There's enough room to the right of the sink for comfy prep
    - 2 people could both prep and use the sink
    - Most importantly, it just looks right.
    - It's more comfy for the 3 people sitting across.
    - You would put trash pull-out right next to that sink. That location is ideal for throwing out science experiments from the fridge.
    - It's so ideal for the primary cook. S/he can stand there next to the prep sink and control the whole house :-). See all comings and goings. Point the knife at people as they walk by for emphasis.

    I don't think the island in your Sat, Aug 3, 13 at 0:44 drawing would be fun at all.
    - Visually, that sink location on the island seems odd for some reason.
    - Primary cook's back would be to people walking in from garage. I'm sure that is bad feng shui :-).
    - 2' on either side of that sink for prep is definitely not enough.

    Ex: Let's say you and spouse invite me over to make my delicious roasted vegetable platter for your family :-).

    I use this cutting board
    http://amzn.to/17r7Jb4
    I'd need space for un-washed brussel sprouts and cauliflower NEXT TO the cutting board. After washing they go ON the cutting board. The prepped veggies go on a big jelly roll pan on the OTHER SIDE OF cutting board for salt and peppering.

    Similar if I were prepping hamburgers or making chocolate chip cookies.

    I couldn't do that comfortably in 2' of prep space.
    Could I make it work? Of course! (Would I complain? Never.) Humans are adaptive, we can make any situation work. But you are designing this scenario now.

  • Ivan I
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    PS: Whatever you do, don't make your prep sink smaller!

    My prep sink is too small. Even though it's right there, sometimes I walk to my cleanup sink to use it instead.

    In my next kitchen my prep sink will be a Kohler Stages 33. I think they look bad-a*s and probably function amazingly well.
    http://ths.gardenweb.com/forums/load/kitchbath/msg012258471373.html

  • jeff2013
    Original Author
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Deleted. Messed up with another thread on master bath.Sorry (:

    This post was edited by jeff2013 on Sat, Aug 3, 13 at 19:15

  • lavender_lass
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Picture gone...

    This post was edited by lavender_lass on Sat, Aug 3, 13 at 20:36

  • jeff2013
    Original Author
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Thank you all so much for the wonderful ideas and suggestions! Both my wife and me admire your talents and really appreciate it.

    I would respond to your comments later but for now I just could not wait to post the drawings based on your inputs.

    Latest layout of the kitchen section (ver11).

    This post was edited by jeff2013 on Sat, Aug 3, 13 at 19:37

  • jeff2013
    Original Author
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    And the laundry/mudroom/powder section.

    Again, I would follow up with my comments later. Thanks!

    JF

  • ontariomom
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hi Jeff,

    I wanted to clarify your needs as per the shower in that bathroom. Seems like a spot where a shower would not get much use (i.e. far from most bedrooms). Why not eliminate the shower (as it is not an inexpensive item), and slide the toilet and sink down. Then you could use the new space for one or more of the following: a larger drop/mail sort zone with message centre, an entrance closet, a shoe shelf perhaps with a bench in the landing. Otherwise, I fear family will be tempted to dump stuff on that nice breakfast table. Does that make any sense or do you want to keep the shower?

    Carol

  • mrspete
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I think I'd have to name that island "the bullet" because of its shape. I would cut out the far-wall-with-oven cabinets in order to make the island wider. Those cabinets are going to become clutter-magnets anyway since they're out of the main work areas, and cabinets are very expensive.

    Speaking of expensive, you've said a couple times you're concerned about budget. Going with a plain range instead of a cooktop and a separate oven will be a big savings. A good range can be had for $1000, whereas two separate items will cost twice that much . . . Even if you're going with only a single oven.

    I also like Lavendar's idea to go with a bay window at the kitchen table. It'll be a monumental savings and gives essentially the same look.

  • huango
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I'm very late to the game.

    1. Yes, big supporter of mudroom.
    Can you flip the bathroom and the mudroom, so that you come into the mudroom first, so that the doorway into the mudroom is in the middle instead of at the end (which will function like a bottleneck).?

    2. How do you cook?
    My style of cooking is to stand between the sink and the range. I prep right there: washing my greens in the sink, slicing them up in the middle, and plopping them right into the pot on the range (or icky bloody chicken thighs).
    So my idea is to:
    - move the fridge and oven onto the sink/DW wall (keep fridge out of cooking circle)
    - move the sink/DW into the island (big deep sink hides mucho)
    - then add the prep sink on the range wall, so you won't be dripping food swinging from the island prep sink to the range wall.

    But that's my 2cents.

    good luck,
    Amanda

  • jeff2013
    Original Author
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Another version of the laundry/mudroom/powder with no shower.

  • angela12345
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Jeff, no need to follow up with comments on every item in my (long winded!) post. I know how time consuming what you are going thru right now is, planning a whole house !! At some point, you will want to sit down and slowly re-read the entire thread. You will likely find really good comments that people made that you missed somehow the first time through, or forgot about thru the process. That's what happened to me when we were building and our thread got really long.

    My thoughts on giving up the shower ... I can see many pluses for keeping the shower and also see why you may choose to give it up. Assuming you give it up ... If you move the lockers to outside the bath, you will lose your mail/keys/drop zone. Even though it was fairly tiny, I can see needing a little 'command center'. And you have separated the lockers from the coat hooks, which means the hooks may not get used very much. If you move the lockers, then I would make the coat hook section into shelves all the way from top to bottom instead, or even better a shallow cabinet with shelving inside. I can always see lots of uses for more storage. If you keep the lockers inside the laundry, then I would make that a desk outside the bath. Personally, my first choice would probably be to keep the shower, second choice would be to have desk outside bath and lockers across from coat hooks.

    Don't forget to leave room for molding/trim around doorways when planning. Looks like the vanity comes right up to the door opening.

    One thing I forgot in my long post: where possible, use deeper upper cabinets ... 14 or 15" deep uppers will store 4 drinking glasses deep instead of 3. And your large 12" mixing bowls/salad serving bowls/canning pot/crockpot just barely won't fit in the 12" uppers, but they will in deeper uppers, etc etc. I would bring the upper cabinets all the way across the top of the washer dryer (unless you plan on stacking them).

    If you end up with a 6 ft long oval table, you can have 3 chairs along the long curved side.

    My thoughts on kitchen ... With the most recent layout, I think I would naturally end up prepping at the main sink, right next to the fridge, rather than walking around the island to the prep sink. Also, people will likely pass thru the cooking zone to get to the cleanup sink (instead of walking around the island). You are showing windows behind the upper cabinets on the cleanup wall. I'm sure that's a mistake ?

    I am on iPad and can't draw out what I am thinking for kitchen right now. I will try to describe . . .
    Put fridge where you currently have oven. Recess fridge into HVAC closet. I think that closet is bigger than it needs to be, so I think you have room for that. Our HVAC closet is much smaller than the one you have shown. Put oven where you had fridge. What is the 1 ft wide you had next to fridge ? Pullout ? They are very expensive. I would slide oven as close to pantry as possible and get rid of pullout. People typically use pullouts when they don't have a nice big pantry like you do. Put prep sink in same spot or nearly same spot but on opposite side of the island, almost across from fridge. As another option, prep sink could go on corner to be accessed from both sides. Swap the location of cooktop and sink. Center cooktop to new space with oven slid down.

    This leaves you with fridge outside of the cooking zone for snackers grabbing something while kitchen is in action. And closer to the table to grab something from fridge you realize you forgot after sitting down. Makes a better flow from fridge to prep to cooktop, and a tighter triangle. Brings ovens back into the cooking zone, but also still leaves them near fridge and pantry for microwaving. People can get to MW without having to pass cooktop. Gets cleanup sink out of the way so you don't have to pass thru the cooking zone to get there. And closer to the table for cleaning up after dinner ! Supposedly something like 70% of your time in the kitchen is spent prepping. With prep sink on opposite side of the island, you are facing out towards the windows rather than facing a wall (if prepping at big sink as I would naturally incline), or facing the oven stack (if using the prep sink).

    Wherever your prep zone ends up, put trash there ! It would be nice if this same trash was fairly easy to access from cooktop. At cleanup sink, you will only need a small can, could easily be under the sink.

    Love your pantry design with the 3 different depths of shelves. I bet you will find you use the 6" and 10" shelves the most. Stuff will get pushed to the back and hidden on 20" deep shelves.

  • jeff2013
    Original Author
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    new kitchen layout (ver12) featuring
    1.48"x92" island w/ round head. The width is determined by the top and bottom aisle dimensions. As for the length, there are 3 parts after removing the half circle. 24" seating area, 18" sink diameter, and about another 24" landing space in between.

    2. Aisles of 42" to sink/DW, 45" to cooktop, and 45" to fridge

    3.18" round prep sink at the corner of the island acccessible from both fridge and cooktop side.

    4. recessed fridge with cabinet panels on both sides.

    5. OPTIONAL 5 16-inch stools tucked under overhang surrounding the island post allowing each taking 24" of island seating space.

    How will this kitchen work/look? Please let me know your thoughts. Any suggestion on improving the kitchen design is highly appreciated! JF

    This post was edited by jeff2013 on Mon, Aug 5, 13 at 3:51

  • Ivan I
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    How about a prep sink designed such that a cutting board fits on top of part of it? (Suggest starting a new topic to see what sink models with this feature people have used if you aren't set on round. Or, maybe round ones have the feature too? I lust after the Kohler Stages 33, but I've seen lots of others lately.)

    I like that location of the oven better. It's using less prime-time real-estate. Therefore, when you do have very hot cookware or platters to move in and out of the oven, people are less likely to be in your traffic zone. So less risk of burn / spill collisions.
    (Just don't trap anyone in the pantry when you open the oven door!)

    I'd want the microwave in a drawer next to the fridge.
    With a microwave next to the fridge, and a toaster and coffee maker on the counter, you'd have a self-contained snack / breakfast making station.

    Peanut butter & jelly toast with coffee & cream - no problem
    (I use the microwave to soften the peanut butter, so I can use less but still get good coverage)
    Yogurt with apple peel + homemade granola + coffee - check!


    I wish you could find another 2 feet of width (top to bottom) to add to your kitchen.

  • ontariomom
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I do agree with MareLuce's wish for two more feet top to bottom for your kitchen. That way you could have more counter space on your island. The only way I could see you get a foot more width top to bottom would be to reduce the pantry to a shallow 12 inch pantry and place it in the run where you show the fridge right now. My sister has a shallow wide pantry of 12 inches and she loves it! Nothing gets lost in her pantry. The best depth for pantry items is around 12-14 feet maximum with a depth of 5 inches or so for cans. In this scenario, the fridge would have to move somewhere where the old pantry was. I don't suppose you could use the left over 2 feet for a closet in the dining room to store you kids' toys as you said you were going to use the dining room as a play room most of the time. Anyway, that idea may not please you in the least as it would take away the large pantry you were hoping for.

    I do like most of what you have drawn above, although I think 5 seats around the island is too many most of the time with your breakfast table right there. It really eats into your island prep space. Also, I am less sure about the sink against a wall. I would have it against the wall before reducing your laundry size again. No layout is ever going to be perfect. There will always be some cons that you accept and move forward.

    Carol

  • angela12345
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Wow Jeff, I am impressed with your interpretation of my description. Spot on !!! I worked up the below layout on Sunday but never had a chance to post it. I am posting it now, mostly because I had already done the work *grin*. But also to describe a couple more things.

    You have the option of fitting a freezer in your pantry. See link at the bottom of this post for some options on a freezer for this location, and they're not very expensive! I know nothing about if it's ok to put a freezer in a pantry. I would think it would be fine, because your pantry is a good size. If you do this, make sure the handle is on the left and hinge on the right for the freezer you choose. The only issue I can think of is the freezer heating up that space. This could be easily solved with a vent high up on the wall. It could even be over the oven stack cabinet so you wouldn't see it (unless you are doing cabinets to the ceiling) or anywhere high up on that wall (heat rises).

    I am showing oven with MW above. I am also showing optionally a MW drawer. Thats a hard decision ... MW drawers are more expensive and may have some problems with them because they are fairly new technology. It depends on how your family uses the MW - for snacking or when you cook. We use it almost exclusively while we are cooking, so I am one who wants the MW in the cooking zone. Plus it's still close to fridge and pantry for snacking there. Another option may be to have double stacked ovens and a MW above, especially if none of them are really tall. I have seen this done many times before. You have to make sure with the ovens you choose that the MW doesn't end up too high up.

    I do like the idea of beside the fridge being the coffee zone. You could also make that area into a bar type area with glass doors on the uppers to display drink glasses etc, and liquor stored in the cabinets below.

    I only show 3 stools at island, but you can fit more.

    I am showing 3 options for prep sink ... on the long edge, angled in the corner, or square in the corner. You can still have a square prep sink on a corner (not round), you would square it up with the cabinet and have the faucet installed on a corner instead of on a side. Rhome410 did this with her sink. http://rhome410.blogspot.com/p/my-kitchen.html

    Have your cabinet above the fridge come out the full depth of the fridge, so it is even with the face of the fridge. Same with the washer dryer ... if you stack them and if you have cabinets above them (rather than leaving them open above), have the cabinet over them come out even with the face of the washer dryer.

    Start planing out your storage. What goes where so it is most convenient to the point of useage (coffee cups near coffee maker, dishes near dishwasher, spatulas near cooktop, trash near prep sink, etc) ? How big does the area need to be to hold what will go in that space. Drawers everywhere possible.
    Everything I Wanted to Know about Drawers . . . http://ths.gardenweb.com/forums/load/kitchbath/msg0206313721622.html
    Planning for storage . . .
    http://ths.gardenweb.com/forums/load/kitchbath/msg010523449014.html

    Have a door from playroom into the attic space over laundry for walk in attic storage.

    I am showing an option to increase the length of the laundry and simplify the roofline above it. The picture will be in the next post.

    Here is a link that might be useful: Freezer options for pantry

  • angela12345
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I am showing an option to increase the length of the laundry and simplify the roofline above it. The added length gives you more cabinet space in the laundry and another 18x18 cubby/locker.

    Also, I have decreased the width of the laundry by 6" and added it to the bathroom. This still leaves you with 36" between the bench down in front of the cubby/lockers and the shelves facing it, and allows you to change the bath layout which gives you a 21"x39" desk outside of the bath. I am showing 2 options for the shape of the shower and the location of the door.

    Simpler walls & rooflines save money. It is *possible* that the 30sf extra in this area will actually save you money.

  • ontariomom
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Lots of great links and ideas here Angela, I am going to read them myself right after I type this. I like the three options for prep sink (especially the square one in corner with tap on angle like Rhome did.

    Only a few things that would still bother me about your design. I still vote for removing the shower and having a big command centre/mail sorting desk instead. What is shown is rather small for a family of 5. I agree with Angela about keeping the lookers and coat hooks all together in the mudroom (I do wish that mudroom was the first room upon entry but that looks hard to fix). Only you, Jeff and your family, will be able to figure out if you will use an expansive shower fixture in that location. Also, the window in the shower area is a complication that could be avoided. Not the best spot for a window in my book especially for a city lot near neighbours.

    The other area that bothers me is the bookshelf behind the DW, assuming it was meant to be a full height bookshelf. I would like to be able to look sideways and converse with someone at the breakfast table while I did dishes. I would not like having that shelf blocking me in. Of course if the shelf is short no worries. I think cookbooks could go in the pantry.

    I am very intrigued by Angela's mention of a way to increase laundry area by simplifying the roof line and also the idea of an attic storage area over laundry. I don't understand them, but they sure sound good to me.

    I think your kitchen is really looking good. I think ventilation will also be important if you put a freezer in the pantry, which will be handy. Maybe you could start another thread asking if anyone has put a freezer in their pantry and what they did about ventilation.

    Carol

  • ontariomom
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    That is brilliant change to the roof line. You are talented, Angela. I hate to pick, but the toilet will now be in full view upon entry and it might be nice to have 5 cubbies/lockers for the family of 5. I would reconfigure the bath and add that extra locker.

    Carol

  • angela12345
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I agree, a lot of these things can only be determined by how Jeff's family works. Which is why I have so many "options", LOL.

    Yes, the bookcase as I have it is short under the counter, with the countertop extending over the whole area. The window showing for the bath is a small window high up on the wall, above the shower, so no one should be able to see in. I am all about having daylight in rooms where possible.

    I thought about 5 lockers too. Didn't know if mom & dad want a locker, don't want one, or could share one ?

    OntarioMom, I know we were both posting at the same time, so you posted your first comment before you saw the pic with the longer laundry. I agree about the toilet. The only saving grace is it's so far back in the room that the only place you will be able to see the toilet is if you are right in front of the bath doorway.

    Personally, my vote is for the shower because I can see so many uses for it. Coming in dirty from the yard, washing the dog, if they have a pool or hottub in backyard, if they have guests staying over (sleeping in study maybe?), etc. Plus an extra full bath gives more sales/appraised value to a house than a half bath (4BR 4bath). But in the end, it comes down to their uses and budget and I would understand if they choose to not include it.

    For both pics, another way to have a larger command center and still have the shower is to make the vanity in there shorter. As I have it showing, the vanity is large at 42" long. If you drop back to a standard 2 door 27" wide vanity, you could increase the length of the desk to 54" instead of 39" as shown in the pic with the longer laundry.

    Or with the shorter laundry room pic, make the bath a standard 5'x8' = standard shower 32"x60" instead of 36" wide, and vanity 27", which gives 21"x37" desk . . .

  • ontariomom
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Angela,

    I just remembered that Jeff talked about 7 foot clearance between his property and the property line. I wonder if he has already maxed out on the proper width, so might not be able to use your good idea for the increased laundry/simplified roof.

    Carol

    P.S. That drawer post you made was fantastic!!!!

  • lavender_lass
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Jeff- I don't like your newest kitchen plan. Sorry, but it seems like a lot of walking between appliances...and no prep space by the island sink.

    Maybe the issue is that you want to prep, facing the great room...but your island is just too small to do this. What if you erased a bit of cabinetry and move the pantry (don't have to for it to work) but did something like this?

    You could put the oven back over by the pantry or get a larger range with two ovens. This puts you back in the 'L' with your prep space on the island. Less walking! Keep the pantry and maybe a coffee bar over there...with an extra small sink if necessary. Give that space to the kids and keep the big work are for you and wife! Hope this helps :) {{gwi:1920330}}From Farmhouse plans

  • jeff2013
    Original Author
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    @Angela,
    Wow! You have such wonderful ideas. Thank you so much for the drawings, pictures and the links!!! I have read every single word and am going to read and read them over again.

    @Debra,
    I love your kitchen. The granite, flooring, and the doggy too. It helps me a lot to see that you have an island of similar shape and with an 42” aisle to sink. I like the idea of stools tuck under the island. So I am going to use round stools too. It is good to hear that your got help from GeenDesigns and other people on GW. I am grateful to have such forums . Thank you!

    @ Lavender,
    Thank you for bringing up the issue of the pet feeding. I do not have any good idea where I shall feed our dog yet.
    I like your lovely idea of putting a seat instead of the linen closet in that prime location. We can always find space for towels. I am going to post links to master bath layout so others may comment on it there.

    @Mare,
    Thank you so much for your suggestion of a big island with adequate prep area. I will check out the stage 33 sink. I like the idea of cutting board over the sink. The $1k sink (add another $1k for the extendable faucet ) might be a concern due to our budget.
    Thank you also for the comments on the oven and the microwave. I like the microwave to be close to the fridge too. I am not familiar with microwave drawer but I will check them out.
    When you said you need another 2 ft from top to bottom, where do you need it most? To make the island wider (from 4ft to 5ft) or the aisles of 42”, 45” wider or a combination of both?
    Yes. I would have new thread regarding prep sink shape, size, and location. Right now, I need to make sure the basic layout works OK before I give more consideration to the details (microwave, prep sink, storage, etc, are critically important in the design too).

    @ MrsPete,
    Thank you for your suggestion of making the island wider to make it look better. I am just hesitant to remove that side of the wall for fear of losing too much functions /items of a good sized kitchen.
    Yes. I have concerns about my budget as the builders told me that I am about 10% over budget based on my numbers and their estimate using the sqft method. However, the architect told me to be patient with his design and he is confident that we are on track. I am very open with the architect regarding my budget and I am concerned but I also like to give the architect some freedom to work things out. It is a tough situation. I would post something about budget in the home forum soon and hope to hear more of your thoughts there.

    @Amanda,
    Thank you for your comments. I saw your finished kitchen and it looks so beautiful with the windows.
    You have a good point regarding the benefit of a mudroom close to the garage door. It seems that I do not have a solution here because of the way we have the powder and laundry.
    Yes. Your style of cooking is the idea way and that is close to what I have in my current house. We have a gallery setup with on island. Fridge and sink on one side and stove on the other side. There is a nice work triangle of about 6ft for each side.
    The difficulty here is that the island has a shorter side facing the long wall so it might not be wide enough to hold sink / dw.
    Let me know if you have more thoughts on the latest layout.

    @Carol,
    I would follow up with the architect to see if ventilation is doable there if we choose to put stove in that area. I am not worried too much about it as it is likely the sink will stay there. I am still waiting for a chance to meet with the architect. The design has been hold up for about two weeks as I am trying to fix many of the issues in the kitchen and master bath. I also need to have a strategy regarding exteriors and budget control before the design goes to the final stage of construction documentation.
    Kudos to you and your husband! Your kitchen is great. I switched from a home designer and am now working with an architect. I did not have a chance to work with an interior designer or kitchen designer. I am grateful for so many inputs from experienced people on GW forums.
    Yes. I have the NKBA guidelines for kitchen and bath designs. I will read them again. Thank you for your kind reminder.
    Thank you for echoing MareLuce’s comment on 2 more ft in the kitchen. I am not sure if I can do that. I would check with the architect. I agree that 5 seats are may be too much for the island. I think I am hitting the limit and I would really like to decide on a basic layout before my next meeting with the architect.

    ----------------------------------------

    Re: Island Seats
    We never planned for them. It is a bonus feature that was first proposed by GreenDesigns and later supported by many others here. I like the idea very much.
    As I have 3 kids (ages 13,9,and 0), I would love to see 3 stools. I know when my baby grows to an age of using it, my daughter is propably out for college. I also see a picture of parents and kids sitting there or teens with their friends at a party, so I managed to have 5 seats with each taking 24” seating space on the island. There is 16” overhang to tuck in the stools.
    However, this is optional and of secondary to cooking and storage needs in the kitchen. For example, if there is not enough storage, I may use the 2 2ft sitting area on the straight sides for under cabinets instead of stool space. Either way, the whole straight section would be used for prep space.

    Re: Island Size
    As of the now, the island is about 48” wide and 89” long (from base to round tip). The width is limited by the top 42” and bottom 45” aisles. The length is limited by the right 45” aisle and where it stops on the left. Clearance to the left is not an issue as the kitchen is open to the great room. I do have kitchen flooring to indicate the definition of the kitchen and there is about 43” distance from the island round head to that imaginary boundary.
    I understand that there is a need for bigger island for more prep/landing surface area and more cabinet storage space. I would have concerns if the island is getting too big: 1) it is overwhelming everything else and might not look right; 2) it is difficult to reach the middle for cleaning and access items on the top.

    Re: Laundry chute
    I see it as a design feature for the kids. Hopefully they would like the idea of throwing dirty clothes down and raise clean clothes up so they would like to do more laundry themselves.
    The idea of kids sliding down the laundry is intriguing. However, I need to take care of some safety issues to allow that happen. For example, to have a tilted slide instead of the direct jump down as of now and to have some soft landing space in the laundry room, etc. Otherwise, I would make sure that kids would not be able to jump down at all. For example, make the opening small enough.

    Re: Laundry / Powder Layout
    I like the recent drawings in this area better than the latest work from the architect (he made some small changes too and I can post it later). The simple lined up garage entrance works better than the garage entrance followed by a branched out hallway to powder/laundry as in the architect’s work. I actually presented something similar to the architect (see my July 20th post). Now I don’t understand why the architect did not make the changes. I need to make it clear to him that our layout is the way to go.

    Re: Shower in Powder
    I am still debating the pros and cons of a powder room with or without a shower.
    (a) The good thing with a shower is that it may be easy for kids to take a quick shower right after they come back from swimming or games. It is easy to put dirty clothes to the laundry room.
    We have a dog. Kids may give bath to the dog in the shower but my wife said that activity shall go to the laundry room.
    The main concern is extra cost associated with the shower and I would check with the architect/builder regarding that.
    (b) Without a shower, they maybe extra space for garage in front of the powder room.
    It would be handy to put some cubbies there.
    However, the concern would be it would be difficult for guests to use the powder room if it is pushed too far away from the garage door (It is always easy to tell them to it is close to the garage door to the right). It may be serving the guests well for them to take a long walk from the great room and then pass messy mud room. So we need to do it right if we decide to do the no shower option.

    Re: Cubbies inside Laundry or in front of Shower
    The cubbies inside the laundry would be able to be closed from our sight behind the door to laundry.
    The cubbies in front the powder room (if we decide on the no shower powder option) is easier to be accessed as they are close to the garage entrance without going through a door.
    I guess either way should be fine. A decision would be made based on overall consideration of how to use the mudroom, how to make the mudroom look good, and the extra cost of a shower (or tub/shower combo).

    Re: Laundry
    (a) The laundry is kind of wide (over 9ft). I am not sure if we can easily steal some of the laundry space and make the long side of the kitchen longer. There is a chute and the end sink/laundry wall is a load bearing wall with a support beam over it for second floor game room exterior wall. I would check with the architect. If we would like to save the real estate for better use, another idea is to push down the garage /powder wall down so we have more space in garage.

    (b) I like the picture showing the recessed vent for the dryer. My current house has a vent exactly as in the left picture and it is always got pushed back toward the wall and stuck easily. I would make sure they do the dryer ven right. Such little details in the design really make big difference in the way we are going to live in the house.

    (c) We have top loaders in our current house and they work fine. We have some concerns about front loading washers so I am not sure. I do like to have counter space for folding. Or we shall have space for a simple folding rack/table inside.

    Re: Garage
    Right now, the internal dimensions are 20ft wide by 23ft long. It has two garage doors to the back and to the side. The great room/master bedroom have sliding doors to the patio. In addition, the garage entrance is close to the side garage door.
    I appreciate the way how you aligned the walls to simplify the roofline. The lasted design has a hipped roof in that section. I would post / link some pictures for the overall design of the house.

    Re: Pet
    We have a small dog (suzi and maltese hybrid). It is crated. I am thinking of a place in the laundry for the crate. And she would also play inside and outdoors. I am not sure if she can climb up the stairs by herself.

    Re: Microwave Location
    My wife likes it to be on the oven and the main reason is that is the natural place as she sees microwave takes a lot of space.
    I am inclined to put it close to the fridge. I think that is where we would be using the microwave most often for breakfast preparation and for reheating foods out of the fridge. I like the idea of a snack/beverage area outside the work zone. There would be coffee maker, toaster, etc in that area.
    I understand the need of using microwave during cooking. We may consider two microwaves, one beside the fridge and another over the oven.

    Re: Prep Sink
    I have not thought too much about the shape, size,and location about it yet.
    I understand that we need good size no less than 18inches.
    I put a round there as I see the need to use the sink from both fridge and cooktop sides. We also need to use it for baking.
    A square of 2ft by 2ft may work better . I am also drawing a rectangle shape of 2ft x 3ft as a third option. I am a little bit concerned about the last one eating too much of the prep area. So I am more into the square one.

    ---------------

    Attached is my latest drawing of the kitchen layout (ver12D). I have a concern of the fridge to cooktop distance being to large (about 11ft). My wife said it is ok as we have the island in between as a landing place.
    Let me know if you think this works out OK. I know I cannot have it perfect but I like it to be acceptable for me to move forward.

    Next, if this layout works, I will need to plan the storage/drawers/cabinets plan for the kitchen. And I am going to open a new thread as this is getting too long.
    Please let me know your thoughts about the general layout of the kitchen.

    Many thanks! JF

    This post was edited by jeff2013 on Tue, Aug 6, 13 at 16:55

  • angela12345
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I cannot see the newest pic. I love that you have kept everything in one thread so far. I got in late to the game so it was nice for me to see how the kitchen evolved thru other's suggestions and to read the background info. I think you are on the right track, thinking of the pros and cons for the different items and then making a decision based on what works for your family.

  • angela12345
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Edit to remove duplicated post
    (I see you edited yours. I can see the pic now)

    This post was edited by angela12345 on Wed, Aug 7, 13 at 9:27

  • ontariomom
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I bet your hitting the wall. It is so overwhelming all this designing and decision making to build a custom home. Just think of how much money you are savings on architect fees reworking the plans on your own.

    I wanted you to have the link for Silent Servant manual dumb waiter as a consideration for your laundry chute. You talked about a pulley system for clothes to go up and down, so it sounds like you want a dumb waiter not a chute. It is something you have to plan for in advance as it is done at the framing stage.

    I like the recent plans, and like the sink where it is shown now that I hear the intention for the bookshelf was not to block it. The clean-up run is nice and close to where you eat. I also like the T shaped island drawn by Lavender_lass.

    Good luck with all this. Your house is going to work for you and your family!

    Carol

    Here is a link that might be useful: Silent servant dumb waiter

  • jeff2013
    Original Author
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    @Lavender,

    I did not see your latest drawing before my last post. You have a great point regarding the potential problem of the curent layout. There is a 11ft walking distance between friddge and cooktop. The walk between prep sink and cooktop may not be that bad even there is a 90 degree turn. Right now, there is about 3.5-4ft prep area to the left of the sink (if the sink is 18" to 24" wide). In addition, there is a 2ft secondary prep area to the cooking side.

    If this is not acceptable, I will try removing the all bottom wall section. That would really hurt (biting my tongue with teeth) but will do it if I have to. Thanks!

    @Angela,
    Thank you for your encouraging words. If you don't mind going through the long thread, I would keep it here till we find a workable layout.

    Thanks to everyone's inputs, I think I have made a lot of progress and I am sure I will eventually get there. The design process just takes longer than what I expected. So, give it more time and I need to be patient.

    JF

    This post was edited by jeff2013 on Tue, Aug 6, 13 at 17:21

  • ControlfreakECS
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    "Right now, there is about 3.5-4ft prep area to the left of the sink (if the sink is 18" to 24" wide). In addition, there is a 2ft secondary prep area to the cooking side."

    But the large prep area to the left of the sink is not in the right spot. You will tend to naturally prep in the area that is closest to being between a water source and your cooking zone. The area to the right of the island sink is the place you should be focusing for adequate prep space. Your above statement made me think that this reality is not clicking for you as numerous people keep saying that your prep zone is too small, but your new drawings don't seem to reflect a desire to improve it.

    Just putting extra counter space elsewhere and calling it the prep zone will not make actually make it your prep zone. Don't feel badly, when I started the same mistake was pointed out to me.

    I have 35" between my prep sink (which is 16" circle) and my range. I would not want less. I could probably learn to manage with less, but would not want to plan on less than 30". Since my prep sink is in the corner of a peninsula, the other side of the sink has an additional whopping 53" that I use as my primary "baking zone" and a place to spread out if I am prepping lots of items. In addition to that, my clean up sink is located on the wall opposite the peninsula and I have 36" between it and the other side of the range, so my DH or one of the kids can easily prep there and access water at the clean up sink if necessary. Prep zones need to be adjacent to the cooking zone in order to actually work.

    I think you asked to see my kitchen far upthread when discussing a sink without a window. Sorry I didn't get to it before, but here it is.

    Here is a link that might be useful: Control Freak's kitchen

  • jeff2013
    Original Author
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    @Carol,
    I am learning something everyday and I feel good about it. I am ready to make compromises to make things right. For example, I do not need the stools or the round head part if that makes it look bad. I can even consider a gallery layout by putting up a wall between the great room and the kitchen.

    Thank you for the link to the dumbwaiter. I will look into it.

    @Controlfreakecs,

    I think I get it finally about what is actually counted as prep area. Thank you for the the link to your kitchen. I will study it more.

    Here is a new layout (ver13A).

    Please let me know if everyone thinks that I am going in the right direction here. Thanks! JF

    --------------------------
    This thread has run out of its maximal allowed number of posts. I am therefore opening a new thread to continue refining my kitchen design and to seek addtional inputs. Thanks! JF 08/07/2013

    Kitchen Island Clearance Dimensions-Continued

    This post was edited by jeff2013 on Wed, Aug 7, 13 at 15:21

  • ontariomom
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Technically, that works. Just be aware that does put your back to the people arriving home and those sitting at breakfast area. You will be able to converse with those seated at the island though.

    I would love to see a version with Lavender's T shaped island.

    Carol