I see a lot of good thinking in this plan. Nice walkpaths for the participants in cooking and for the access to food. This looks to be a very interesting house. I'd like to work in this kitchen. Please let us see it when you are farther along!

The only thing that concerned me was the relatively close proximity of the two sinks, but I can also see that they each have a good purpose and that they aren't THAT close. Also, I assume you have one of those mod refrigerators that dispenses water so that the water access via fireplace defuses any pedestrian traffic issue. Or do they use the pantry sink? Do groceries enter through the laundry?

You have a lot of open shelving--enjoy dusting? Any chance these will eventually get sliding glass doors? I know of a 1950s gently modern style house done by a high-end developer in my community that had a semi-opaque sliding glass door system in its kitchen. The current owner left that feature intact when redoing the kitchen. Still looks very up to date. Items inside the cupboards just show through vaguely, a less distracting look for the pantry area which is also a walkpath to the back of the house.

The prep sink on the island will be a single sink, not a double as the plan shows. I'm thinking of moving it to the right so I can work to the left of it. (I'm left-handed). That would move the sinks a little farther away from each other but it would put the prep sink kind of directly opposite the fridge, so I'm not sure if that's a good idea. I'm not concerned about the sinks being too close together because they will have different uses on most days.

The island sink will double as a bar sink for my husband so he can make martinis :) The idea is that the lower cabinet at the end of the island would open toward the aisle where he could stand. Glasses would be on the open shelves behind him. Not ideal but we couldn't figure out anywhere else to put him. Now that I think of it though, I wonder if I will need to have a water filter on the prep sink. I was planning to have the filter on the sink under the window which I would use for filling pots, etc. I don't want to put filters on both sinks. Hmmmm. Well, aside from that issue, if I DO move the sink down on the island, that would give him room to work beside me rather than at the end. He'd probably have to move all those veggies out of the way to make room for himself though!

The fridge on the left will have a water dispenser and ice while the fridge on the right will not. My reasoning is that people could access that fridge from the dining room/fireplace area without going through the work area. Is that what you mean? It's also where DH will have to go to get his ice for the said martinis. Another slightly awkward aspect for him, but I wouldn't want/don't have room for a bar fridge or separate ice maker.

Yes, groceries enter through the laundry which has a sliding glass door on one wall. The area beyond the laundry is the garage so that's another entry point as well.

I've gone back and forth about open shelves vs glass doors. The open shelving in the kitchen across the aisle from the island will be for everyday dishes making it convenient to set the table and unload the dishwasher. Up until last week it was going to have glass doors, but I was concerned about it looking too formal. I wanted it to have a casual look and love all the pictures I see of kitchens with dishes on open shelves. I thought about putting a vintage cabinet in that spot, but we think it would compete with and look too busy with the fireplace, which is quite dramatic, island and all the windows. Better for it to disappear as part of the cabinetry. It's funny, but before I decided to nix the cabinet doors, I bemoaned the lack of open shelves in the kitchen.

The open shelves in the pantry over the metal table will be for books, baskets, some jars, and odds and ends, but not dishes. I'm a bread baker and a preserver. I usually have bowls and jars of starters and ferments going that now tend to clutter up my counters. These shelves will be useful for that. We've since modified it so that at the far right of those shelves will be a separate section for storing heavy cast iron pots on a vertical floor to ceiling section just wide enough for each pot. The metal table will have a sheet of marble on top and will be used for pastries, using the appliances on the lower shelf and preserving projects. The door leads to the side yard so this will be a good place to bring in produce from the garden.

There won't be much open shelving on the other "pantry" side of the pantry room. It's actually now going to have a very narrow broom closet to the far left and next to it a cabinet with ROTS. The dishwasher will go in the right hand corner with the sink next to it, placing the sink more toward the middle of that small counter. I would really have liked to have had a larger sink there for washing vegetables but didn't want to sacrifice storage space. We starting by throwing a second dishwasher in that area for parties, forgetting that we would need a sink, which we originally had in the laundry room. Have to have a sink by code with the dishwasher and it makes sense, but that ended up taking more space than I wanted to devote to it.

Just your few questions has me thinking about things I hadn't thought of. Thanks for taking the time to look at my plan.

I only see one problem, I think, and it has to so with the prep sink, or more precisely, prep work space. Where will you prep? You don't have too much room on each side of the stove...Not short on space, but also not an expansive work area on either side. Right across from the stove on the island, which is what I would consider to be prime prep real estate, you have the sink. Will you have one of those sinks with a work board suspended over it? That could work, but I think I'd still want some clear counter right in front of the stove....So, to get to the point, I'd want to move the prep sink to the right so you get more room there.

Do you bake? Where will you use a mixer? If you do bake a lot, I'd consider having a counter area between the fridges for using the mixer and having a baking center...Then turn to the island to roll dough, knead, fill pans, etc. That's what we do and it works great for us.

I'm a little concerned about a 5 ft aisle if you do plan to use the island for cooking prep, because that's a long way across to the stove with prepped items for me.

Great to hear from a gardener, preserver, baker. That really helps us understand what you are up to. My kitchen needs to process garden veg also, but your second (slightly) smaller sink will be for car parts and mechanic dirty hands also. Yours sounds so much more refined.

If you were to put some labels to the decor/flavor of the room, that might help us envision it. What is the adjacent room like?

I like to "walk" around in a plan and pretend I'm working in the kitchen. Now that we know that the pantry area is for baking, the whole seems rather long, but there is a problem in our too-easy world with too much convenience, so the trot up and down the main line will be good for you, I suspect.

I still think there's a lot of good thinking in this plan.

Rhome, yes I am thinking of moving the prep sink to the right a bit but then it will be directly across from the fridge. Do you think I should worry about that with a 5' aisle?

I AM concerned about prepping so far from the stove. My architect put in the wide aisle because in our old design people were always passing through the kitchen and bumping in to each other. I'm thinking I will have a small prep area to the left of the cooktop too, but I agree it's not very much space. I don't think I'll feel as comfortable working to the right of the cooktop. The dish drainer will be to the left of the sink. I wash a lot of dishes by hand and my habit is to leave it out all the time. I don't see that changing. That will make that area feel cramped I think. But yes, I see myself dropping all kinds of debris as I cross that aisle to the cooktop. I don't know if it's too late to make the aisle narrower.

The area in between the fridges will have a toaster oven, pull out bread board and bread, and coffee maker and supplies. You probably didn't see my above description of the baking area, so I think that's covered.

Thanks. Great comments. I appreciate the feedback.

florantha, here is a floorplan of the whole house so you can walk around in it. Come right in! :-) It doesn't show a lot of the detail but will give you the general idea of the adjoining rooms. The door from the pantry into the bathroom has been moved to the hallway across from the side of the fireplace, so ignore that.

Unfortunately, I don't have a way to modify these drawings so can't add labels, etc. I wish I could.

Ok, I'm not normally the most diplomatic person on earth - so take that as a warning.

1. Where is the dish storage?
2. How far is the cleanup area from the dish storage?
3. Which ref contains the milk, the ice and the other chilled bev?
4. How far is that ref from the dish storage?
5. If you draw the paths that the family will use for breakfast and dinner or how you would use the space while entertaining on the floorplan, what happens?
----- set the table
----- get coffee
----- child gets cereal
----- make bread
----- large party bar
----- last minute meal
----- Holiday meal
6. Are you happy "shopping" from a fairly remote pantry?
7. Where's the micro?
8. How are you going to do venting for cooktop in front of window? What if you get somebody who's code-happy and its disallowed?
9. When working in the kitchen, which way do you WANT to face - family or outdoors?
10. How does this plan help you manage multiple people in the kitchen?

Not saying this is solving anything - blue is public use, red is cooking/baking. I guess for me, the basic problem is making the dishes and beverages accessible. It's really difficult on the beverage side with refs in the center of the kitchen.
{{gwi:1913375}}

bmorepanic, these are all valid questions. Let's see if I can answer them:

1. Where is the dish storage?

Everyday dishes will be stored on open shelves above and drawers beneath on the wall closest to the dining room.

2. How far is the cleanup area from the dish storage?

The dishwasher is right next to the dish storage area and the clean-up sink is next to that. The second dishwasher, in the pantry will be used for large gatherings where I think it will be convenient to bus dirty dishes between courses.

3. Which ref contains the milk, the ice and the other chilled bev?

The fridge closest to the pantry. That way people can enter the kitchen from that end, from the hallway beside the fireplace to get drinks.

4. How far is that ref from the dish storage?

It's not close to everyday dish storage but why would it need to be?

5. If you draw the paths that the family will use for breakfast and dinner or how you would use the space while entertaining on the floorplan, what happens?
----- set the table

I don't see a problem here.

----- get coffee

coffee pot will be on the counter between the fridges. take coffee pot to sink, fill it, put it on range. take cup from open shelf near sink. pour coffee.

----- child gets cereal

child gets cereal from pantry and brings it to kitchen where she gets a bowl, spoon and milk. (Although we have one teen aged child and nobody in our house eats cereal, but I see what you're getting at.)

----- make bread

Bread dough will be made in the pantry where it will rise until baking time. Baked bread will be on the counter between the fridges where there will be a pull out bread board and cutting knives in a drawer below.

----- large party bar

The island will serve as an area where people can gather on the dining room side. There will be a few stools. There is a hearth bench to sit on in front of the fireplace. The room is large with plenty of room for milling about and large glass doors allowing access to the outdoors.

----- last minute meal

I'm not sure what you think the problem might be?

----- Holiday meal

Again, don't know where the problem is.

6. Are you happy "shopping" from a fairly remote pantry?

Well, this is a bit of an issue. In our temporary home the entire pantry is in the garage. I have to go outside to get to it. It's been inconvenient, but surprisingly, not terrible because I cook most things from scratch and find most of my ingredients are in the fridge. I will have some frequently used items in kitchen cabinets like tea, flour, sugar, etc. Oils and vinegars, etc, will go in the upper cabinet to the left of the cooktop, spices in top drawer next to refrigerator.

7. Where's the micro?

I don't use a micro and don't want one in my house.

8. How are you going to do venting for cooktop in front of window? What if you get somebody who's code-happy and its disallowed?

We've checked into that. No problem with code.

9. When working in the kitchen, which way do you WANT to face - family or outdoors?

I see myself using the island as a prep area more than anywhere else. When I'm alone, I could see myself doing quick prep to the left of the cooktop.

10. How does this plan help you manage multiple people in the kitchen?

I figure two people could work at the island. Guests can even help out from the dining room side. Somebody can be doing clean-up at the sink by the window. Another could be working at the stove. Another person could handle some tasks at the table in the pantry if need be. Truth be told though, I'm usually the only one working in the kitchen!

Of your suggested changes the one that I'd been considering is moving the cooktop over where you put it. It would make the flow smoother. I don't like the big mass of fridge and ovens on the other side though, within sight line of the living room. I think you've moved them over where some of the windows are and the windows are already in.

I need a desk in the kitchen for laptop (in use constantly), telephone, etc. Wouldn't want that in the pantry.

I also really want both fridges in the kitchen. I've always had one in the kitchen and one in the garage and that's what keeps me huffing and puffing. I need to access the second fridge way more than pantry items. Plus, the second fridge will hold drinks that people can help themselves to.

I did briefly consider refrigerator drawers but feel that I need all the lower cab space I can get because of having so few uppers. And I really don't want my main fridge to be cluttered up with drinks. I'm always having to move bottles out of the way when I'm cooking.

I hope this gives you more of an idea of our lifestyle which might be a little different than average. I sure appreciate the suggestions and questions.

Florantha, since I can't attach labels I'll try to describe a little bit of the feel. We are in the city, however I'm seeing this house as having a modern urban farmhouse aesthetic. We have a good size yard with lots of fruit trees and vegetable garden and I plan to keep chickens. The house is smack in the middle of the lot with a large circular driveway in the front. This is going bye, bye to make room for more garden. Most of the rooms, including the bedrooms, open to the garden. That's the farm part.

The modern part is the open feel. Living, dining, kitchen flow into one another. Vaulted ceilings. Spare details - no molding, etc. Cabinet doors will be slab either wood vaneer, stained or painted. Simple pulls. Stainless fridges (Fisher-Paykel), killer cooktop (probably BlueStar) maybe the sink on the island will be apron front. For counters either marble or whitish quartzite on the perimeter, butcher block on the island. If I stain/paint the cabinets I'm thinking of a grey/blue. All the windows are metal framed which are a blue with a hint of lavender. Floors will be reclaimed wood, the same as the dining and living room. I would prefer another material for the kitchen floor, but don't think it would work because of the way the rooms open to each other.

A lot of art on the walls, a big dining table, some interesting pendants over the island.....

Does this help?

You sound pretty frustrated that I don't think its a nice plan. And I'm not trying to be snarky - I don't think its a good solution. I'll bet your architect doesn't cook.

I'm trying to say back to you what you're saying sounds like to me.

You can work at a child sized desk.
It's ok if the food is stored fairly far away.
Looking at an oven is much worse than a ref.
It doesn't matter if people usually cross between the cooktop and the prep sink to get to the ref.
Nobody ever uses the glasses so the ref and the glasses don't need to be close to each other.
A bowl of cereal (depending on the starting location- using the hall next to the pantry), is 24 feet to the bowl, spoon, 24-28 feet to the cereal, 12-16 feet back to the refs and 16-22 feet to the table or the counter seating.
Having one of the refs 5 feet away in the pantry is the same as having it in the garage.
Making dough and performing other cooking tasks in a windowless room is fine.
Planning an extra dishwasher in a location where the dishes need to be transported an extra 25 feet in each direction is ok.

I'm the kind of person who wants cooking to be very easy with frequently used things within reach and remote storage for bulk stuff and less frequently used items (like a turkey pan or cookie press). I like facing people while cooking and I like a view. I like a good looking kitchen, but you or your architect shows a good sense of style and volume (better than I have) so I'm not worried about that for you.

I honestly think this plan will result in a lot of walking with everyone going back and forth in the kitchen all the time. So what I am getting at with you tracing the paths for everyday tasks is to see if you're comfortable with the effort involved for something like a grilled cheese. I was trying to point out what I saw as its issues in a way that I hoped was clear - not to make you angry or frustrated.

Its your kitchen, not mine. You can do whatever you like about it.

bmorepanic, Oh no I'm not angry or frustrated with you at all. I'm not very good at conveying how I feel through these type of exchanges so forgive me if I sound that way. I'm just trying to understand what the issues are. And I am very tired and under a lot of pressure to OK these plans. Was supposed to have handed them over yesterday.
At the risk of sounding defensive I'll respond to the things you list as concerns. I don't think I have the time or fortitude to start over again with a new plan and I'm hoping I don't need to.

"You can work at a child sized desk."

I have a larger office in the garage. The small desk is a place to put my laptop, telephone, the day's mail, all the bits and pieces of daily life that come into my kitchen now until I have time to deal with them. I don't expect to be doing any work at the desk except to maybe check email, etc.

"It's ok if the food is stored fairly far away."

Well no, it's not ideal, but as I said I don't use the pantry cupboards as often as I use the second fridge so seems like a better idea to have second fridge in kitchen.

"Looking at an oven is much worse than a ref."

In your modification the fridge and the double ovens would both be visible from the living room. In the original the cooktop and hood (which I think is a nice architectural element) and the fridge will be visible.

"It doesn't matter if people usually cross between the cooktop and the prep sink to get to the ref."

The fridge closest to the pantry can be accessed from the rear of the kitchen from the hallway beside the fireplace. Will they do that instead of crossing through the main area of activity? I don't know but I hope so.

"Nobody ever uses the glasses so the ref and the glasses don't need to be close to each other."

Good point. Maybe I could keep glasses in a drawer between the two fridges.

"A bowl of cereal (depending on the starting location- using the hall next to the pantry), is 24 feet to the bowl, spoon, 24-28 feet to the cereal, 12-16 feet back to the refs and 16-22 feet to the table or the counter seating."

We don't eat a lot of packaged food so I don't see this as being much of an issue.

"Having one of the refs 5 feet away in the pantry is the same as having it in the garage."

If I put one of the fridges in the pantry I have to eliminate my worktable. If it's for drinks, it's a little less accessible for guests.

"Making dough and performing other cooking tasks in a windowless room is fine."

It's true the room doesn't have a window but it does have a door with floor to ceiling glass and a vaulted ceiling. My main attraction to this room is the shelf of appliances which will be slightly above the surface of the work table. I'll be happy to have these off of my main counters and glad I don't have to fish them out of cabinets. Seems like a good trade off. You might be right that I may prefer to do these things in the kitchen though.

"Planning an extra dishwasher in a location where the dishes need to be transported an extra 25 feet in each direction is ok."

Not ideal, I'll admit, but probably will only be used for parties and wouldn't want it to take up valuable real estate in the main kitchen area.

I'm grateful for feedback positive or negative and appreciate the time it takes for people to reply. Otherwise I wouldn't be posting. Hope I don't sound frustrated with anybody.

My glasses aren't near my fridges. ;-) And, actually, my dishes aren't particularly handy to any food storage. I just consider it one of the compromises and maybe a downside of having a largish kitchen...Everything can't be at arm's length from everything else.

I don't see this as bad as Bmore does, whose opinion I hold in high esteem. I see sort of a good triangle type of situation in the work area, and the cleanup area off to the side, which is how I prefer it. Well, I do have a smaller island so people can navigate around it to travel between fridges or pantry and the dish storage, so there isn't traffic through my cooking/baking area, which I agree is sort of a big problem...But I assumed that's why the aisle is 5 ft wide....Room for dancing around each other when necessary. Not ideal, but ? Oh wait...An option would be to reduce the 'island' to an actual island of 4 ft by 5 ft (same size as mine so I know it works!), and allow traffic flow around the island and through to the fridge area. I had a long island planned originally, but shortened it and am SO glad I did. If you did that, you could actually move it closer to the stove for greater efficiency...and make the island square if you wanted...5' x 5'.

I have done the split dishwashers thing and would never, under any circumstances, do it again. If you're going to have 2, use them all the time and have them handy so you can reach both from one spot, is my advice.

I am not sure that some of the potential storage issues of what is near what would not be worked out in actual use. Maybe a lot of glasses get washed in the secondary DW in the pantry and stored there near the fridge.

5 feet is two wide for a work aisle, 3 feet is too narrow. Everyone's aisle Must Be 4 feet.

The average height of the middle aged American male has gone up 2+ inches since 1960 but his weight has gone up by about 25 lbs. The average height of the middle aged female has increased by 1" and her weight has increased by almost 30 lbs. She is 5'4" 160+ pounds. Thats overweight. It wouldn't hurt people to have to walk around a bit. Soon everyone will want a spinning stool in their kitchen and everything at arms length.

rhome, I'm going to really have to give that island modification some thought. It's an appealing solution to bringing the prep area closer to the cooktop.

But wouldn't two ways of entering the kitchen from the dining room make people feel invited in? My problem is not so much people dancing down the aisle to get something, but people who come in and decide to STAY, leaning against crucial drawer fronts, drink in hand, engaging in philosophical discussions for hours on end (which is how long it takes to get the meal together with everybody in the way).

I thought that the fireplace island (or peninsula, depending on how you view the fireplace) thing created a sort of barrier to gently inform people that their place is on that side of the counter, cosy by the warmth of the fire with plenty of space to set drinks and munch on strategically placed tidbits. With the hearth seat and a few stools I thought it created a continuous gathering spot.

As for the second dishwasher. It was an afterthought since I have my old dishwasher that's no longer ready for prime time looks-wise. When we have big dinners it seems like it would be nice to scoot all those dirty dishes out of sight into another room, creating counter space to assemble dessert or whatever comes next. I understand putting everything away again could be a pain. I'm assuming that's what the issue is, right?

So should I just chuck the second dishwasher idea? There's no way I have room for it in the kitchen. What's worse, no second dishwasher or dishwasher in remote location?

I think there is really no way to keep people out of the kitchen completely, as there is always someone who needs to get to the fridge or something. You mentioned that guests can help from the dining room side, but they'd be quite limited without access to fridge and water. If there is only one way in and out, that's where they'll be. If you give them an access that doesn't tromp through your work area, then you can keep them out...and the overhang on the island helps give them an idea of where they should 'hang,' too. This access around the island works well when you host a big holiday dinner and you have people who are bringing or helping in preparing part of the dinner. There are workspaces in several locations and people can walk around, again, without walking past the stove and without trying for the same path when going different places. The salad maker has a spot and a path , the beverage guy has a spot and a path (and both can share access to the prep sink from the end of the island while you access it from the island's back side), the table setters and clean as you go crew have their area, and you are left to cook without having ANY one in your crucial station between the cooktop and island prep space.

If you entertain a lot, I'd fit in the 2nd dw by the sink as it seems to fit in my drawing (but maybe I've used a crucial spot that was meant for something else)...But a dw miles away doesn't seem like it'd do much good. If you'll use it to sterilize your canning jars, and do baking tools, I guess it could serve a valuable purpose. But then again, canning and most preserving will require the stove. I just read and re-read about your baking...Why create bread in the pantry with the oven so far out in the kitchen? I bake a lot of bread, too, and this wouldn't work for me. Maybe an oven in the pantry and a range in the kitchen?

What you're describing as a desk, we sometimes call a dumping ground - meaning a place where junk always piles up.

The full glass door is kinda far from the "direct light" windows and I don't think it will get much light from the smaller window at 90 degrees. Even with an added skylight, I don't know how nice it'll be to try and work in a room like that.

If you moved the cleanup and dish storage to where the ovens are, that would get the to/from table dishes and people getting drinks completely out of the work area - and you could have two dishwashers. If you have a warming drawer, placing it beside the cooktop towards the dish storage would make it easy.

Slide the cooktop down a little, move the prep sink to the opposite side of the island. And then the oven stack where the dish storage was - but maybe as a short stack - depending on the types of oven you were thinking about - so both ovens opened at counterheight... so the stack finishes at 4-5 feet tall.

It's still not as good as completely reversing the entire kitchen (cooking ends up closer to the pantry) because the food and the work table, if you think you're going to use it, are too far away.

Do I read the plan correctly that your fridges are 31w x 29d x 64h? That seems small. Buehl said recently that fridges are standardizing out at 36w x 72h. Will you have room to replace them in the future?

The pantry sink works great for lefties, but is there enough room if righties ever work there?

Whats across from the washer?

I would love to have your L-shaped work corner but I would prefer a work flow of fridge, prep sink, cooktop.

I would like the prep sink where you have cook top, then I would have cooktop where you have main sink. That way, IÂm not crossing the aisle with my dripping vegetables or my sharp knife. :)
I like my prep space to be one large space rather than two smaller areas.

I would like the clean-up sink on the peninsula with the dishwasher so helpers could put the dirty dishes from the dining room on the peninsula and I (or preferably someone else) could load the DW.

DH can still use this sink for martini making at the peninsula. Then you only need a water filter at this sink. Is there room beside the ovens for bar equipment shelves/cabinet?

And I agree that five feet is a lot of aisle to cover.

edie-g, I find it hard to believe that all small fridges will be discontinued. What about all the people that live in small apartments? Will they be forced to buy 36"w fridges?

For me it was either these two reasonably priced fridges or one Subzero for a lot more money. I don't see any other fridges in this price range that are acceptable in terms of design. My architect suggested that with the money I'm saving by not buying a Subzero I can afford to modify the cabinets in the future if I have to.

I think I'm going to move the prep sink farther to the right.

There is a set of sliding glass doors across from the washer. On the plan there's a notation in a box, but there's nothing on the floor in that spot.

I tried working with your proposed layout but I really don't want the clean-up area on the peninsula. I'm always cooking and always have dirty dishes and dishes drying in a dish rack, which would make the peninsula not pleasant to look at. This is an idea that we eliminated early on for that reason. I also really want to use that area for prep so I can interact with people in the dining room.

I do understand the appeal of having fridge, prep sink and cooktop in that order on a continuous run, but wouldn't want the cooktop to be where the clean-up sink is because the view is better at that window. An important consideration for the dishwasher!

I look forward to seeing pictures of your beautiful finished space!

If you've never had a prep sink, you'll see that you spend most of your time beside the prep sink or the range. By splitting the functions, it changes the amount of time spent in front of the cleanup sink.

We cook usually twice a day either breakfast or lunch plus dinner. We found that cleanup at the sink takes around 10 minutes a day. It's just loading and running the dishwasher and washing a pot or two. Most stuff gets loaded as individual pieces as the day goes on. Dishwasher is emptied in the morning - another 5 minutes tops.

I want to publicly support the kitchen design in general. With all due respect to Rhome and Bmore and buehl who give a great deal of great unpaid advice, I don't think there is anything DYSfunctional about the original plan.

Is it fully functional for the average person? Probably not. Is it a little big--will there be some walking? Sure. But is there any major conflict that will not make it work: ultra-narrow aisles, door conflicts or things like that? I don't see any.

I design things that *I wouldn't want for myself but rather my interpretation of what the *client wants as long as it isn't dangerous, Dysfunctional (or unesthetic). I don't approach a solution with the imperative of MY happiness cooking in the kitchen in question. I am happy cooking in a kitchen that would get torn to shreds in this forum, because it was the best solution to the parameters of this particular apartment. I would NOT be happy cooking in my kitchen if I had room for something else--the parameters change. I would also be happier in some of the "befores" in this forum than I would in the "afters"--not that there is anything "wrong" with the afters, either.

The other thing about this post is noted in the title "11th hour comments" not "Initial kitchen plan" offering advice to completely rework the space (in the absence of any glaring DYSfunctions) is kind of like telling the bride her wedding dress is unflattering when she is ready to go down the aisle.

Would it be handier to have your extra freezer in the pantry and a sink in the laundry room? If you add a prep sink somewhere in your kitchen, I'd move the pantry sink to the laundry. I like having a sink next to the washer and dryer. And having the freezer in the pantry keeps it near other food items.

It looks like you have lots of great space and are close to a wonderful plan. Keep us posted!

I sure haven't meant to slam your plan, as that is never my purpose in spending time on the forum. One person's "11th hour" isn't the same as another's...Others have posted such things but then decided they do indeed have time to make changes, and are glad to have taken that time.

What is a big problem (dysfunction) for some is not for others. I only offer other possibilities I see to consider and always feel the kitchen owner has the full right to disregard. I sure don't think this plan is awful, just saw some other ways to scoot things around that might have worked. I want you to be happy in that kitchen, not me, but I only have my thoughts to offer...Which is what was asked for? I don't want you to say "Why didn't anyone tell me?" Second-guessing and regrets are 2 things I personally hate, so hope to help others avoid.

I feel like it's best to have many ideas, even if only to rule them out, so you know you've looked from all angles and truly have the 'best' you can have for your family and the way you do things. If this plan is what you want after reading the comments, I am not going to be home shaking my head...I'll just be happy for you to have your new kitchen! :-)

And I can't wait to see it, because I think it has some unique features and ideas.

I think your plan looks good on paper but unfortunately functions with too many compromises. You might find that actually cooking and entertaining in it has more annoyances than plusses. Every plan has quirks and glitches. I see your fridges as big red flags. Find some that are standard size--you do not want to replace cabinets later. Trust me on that (just did a whole kitchen reno because no fridge on the current market fit the fridge hole). As a trained architect, I have found that we in design value balance, symmetry, and long views over cooking dinner and schlepping dirty dishes. Get those dishwashers together, maybe swap cleanup and prep sinks so that the cook works in that lovely corner (unless you're a masochist who scrubs each dish with care), get a sink in the laundry space. Open shelves are great if there is a lot of turnover. My everyday stuff is on open shelves, everything else is behind glass. Think about the steps you take, and then think about taking them with a party going on. You'll look like a chicken with your head cut off if you're running up and down the aisle trying to get dinner on the table while your husband is the star of the show making martinis at the island.

Bicky

Congrats on your remodel -

My concern as Rhome has pointed out is "11th hour" - I personally see that as a false deadline someone has put in a homeowner's mind - In today's economy builders, architects, suppliers are all willing to bend a little because the supply far outweighs the demand.

Having said that I would venture your reason for posting this at the '11th hour' was some uncertainty has crept in. As you know there are lots of well intended very bright people on this forum that are TKO for the benefit of others - they help see the forest despite the trees. They want nothing more than to see a finished product that is functional, beautiful and what the original poster set out to do. Architects, builders, GC, KD may or may not have a family, entertain, cook/clean, host parties on a regular basis so their limitations lie within their education and training.
- As with any design something gained is typically coupled with a compromise of something lost.

I can appreciate what many are trying to help you with in the above responses. You have a great space to work with and it has function. If the configuration was tweaked a bit you may find that you gain efficiency and better function.

A few things that came to mind for me while reviewing your plans

1. Cook top placement - You have a great expanse of exterior wall that is not in front of a window that seems more functional. The reasons I see for not in front of a window - Inability to properly vent the cooktop - yes there are solutions (downdraft) but they are less than desirable and lack efficient venting. I spend much more time prepping (as do most) than cooking - so the view out the window is sort of lost - unless I'm making a risotto (stir for 20 min) I'm not typically standing at the cook top for prolonged periods. Cleaning - much easier to clean and/or not notice a dirty tile back splash than a window. With all the open shelving - you will have a constant battle keeping what you store on the shelving clean (ask how I know)
Just noticed a hood in front of the window?

2. 2 little refrigerators - Personally I see several things with this. Traffic patterns as others have pointed out - The constant "where is the?" both from you (whom I assume will put groceries away), guests & the rest of the family. The sizing will limit you in the future when one/both fail - avg life expectancy 12-15 yrs (that may be pushing it)

3. 2 DWs - I have less of an issue with this in your plan due to the placement of the 2nd - but will say, I have many friends who regret 2nd DW as they find they never are in use. Again that has the propensity to create some confusion - where is the ? I thought I put it...

4.Desk - I understand your desire to have one - Do a search many on this forum where celebrating new configurations in their remodels and ridding the dumping ground desk. With today's technology you can have your laptop virtually anywhere. If you strongly desire it I would propose putting it in the pantry area - out of site.

5. I agree about the location of the 2 sinks back to back - and in your expansive kitchen - I would want lots of elbow room for prep

If you removed the desk - you have room for reg sized fridge in that corner - move the cooktop to center that exterior expanse of wall and vent it directly out

Rhome, Bhuel, Bmore are all much better with floor plan, foot traffic, etc

Step back, stand at the far end of your family room & look into the kitchen - Is that the vision you had in mind? For me, Looking into the kitchen & seeing the large window covered with a hood would really bother me -

Don't let others pressure you with false deadlines - what will happen if you take an additional week, 2 weeks, 1 month. Given the expanse of this project and the investment I can't stress enough to not hurry to the finish line.

Since this is existing space, I would recommend posting pics of the space as it exists - I am enamoured by the talents of people here & their abilities to configure other's spaces

ALl the best to you

I have some concerns about the size of the refrigerators myself, but people who get Subzeros, Mieles and the like lock themselves in in the same manner.

As for the second DW being remote from the primary: almost every restaurant kitchen I have ever worked in or been in or commercial food facility my SO laid out as a designer for an international firm specializing in restaurant / food service facilities have had different DW in different locations for different purposes. I am only credentialing the experience because I think people think I talk out of my @55.

Once you have two of *ANYTHING* there is a possibility of ANY item being in one of two places. EVEN if they are RIGHT NEXT to each other.

Why would someone who is capable of remembering what may be in any one of twenty cabinets suddenly lose the capacity to remember what gets washed in what dishwasher--As Long As There Is A Systematic Approach. I have actually had people have more trouble with two adjacent DW that they rotate.

This is a kitchen design that is an outlier in certain repects, and it is much bigger than I personally would feel comfortable in. Kitchens that do not fall within certain parameters of Current (meaning mutable) concepts of Ideal (also mutable) kitchen design simply do not get supported in this forum. Sure, plenty of people give great advice but MOSTLY to beat the plan into some kind of submission until it looks like a version of their own kitchen.

I greatly appreciate everybody's input here.

I just have to pop in to let you all know that my silence doesn't mean I'm sulking at home.

I'd really like to respond to all your comments (tried to post yesterday and GW lost my post, GRRR). I've been tied up in other things and shortly need to leave for the airport so shouldn't even be doing this.

I'm afraid I have to leave it at that for now. Thank you everybody for all your thoughts and support.

Possible suggestion about the 'small refrigerators': We put trim around ours that can be removed if we want to add 'standard' 36"ers later. I didn't want my appliance choices severely limited if I needed to replace or rethink my choices, and I sure didn't want to have to tear out cabinets.

Since the kitchen is largish building a bit of flex space into the piece between the refrigerators ( and above ) in case you ever need to replace with larger fridges is a great idea, I agree with Rhome.

The problem is not the width but the height. There are very few 63" tall refrigerators, and three upper cabinets above that section of the kitchen. A GE in my kitchen failed after 5 years and could only be replaced by the same model because of its height and the cabinet above, which irked us enough to rip out the whole kitchen (that we had admittedly been planning but stalling).

Here is one of my fridges, showing the removable trim on the sides and top...And there is also a toe kick under that can come out if necessary. The bookshelf might have to be adjusted if the other set (fridge and freezer shown in the background) needs to be replaced, but it has a toe kick underneath, too that may save the shelf. No way, I suppose, to plan for every other option out there, but building in a bit of flexibility might not hurt. If we ever have to take the trim out, the only downside is that I'll miss it, because I like the look! ;-) I think it's still missing some trim down each side in this pic:

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Bicky - several weeks ago you were getting on a plane - Just wondered if you have made any progress on your plans

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