what about this for the uppers on the sink wall? it looks more historic, right?

i still worry about the"chimney" hood surround not being deep enough to be practical and that the fridge built in area is going to look modern.

Here is a link that might be useful: sink wall uppers?

The depth of the chimney part of the hood depends on the manufacturer's specs--it is just ductwork. The wood shelf aspect could be designed at the needed depth and the upper part could be slightly shallower. The dark blue Spitalfields does not look quite 24" deep but it looks more than 18" to me at the top.

The fridge elevation has a fridge and a built in microwave, so there is no getting around some of its modern-ness. I felt like suppressing it into a niche at least avoided the ceiling molding zig-zagging across the various depths of cabinets which definitely wouldn't have happened in the 18th c.

I think part of the reason behind the objections your husband is throwing up is that he wants a flashier kitchen, than he is going to get if you go the Plain English route. Most people would put the flashiest kitchen they could afford in a house like this, and that's okay, too, it's their prerogative. But that's part of the series of compromises you are going to have to make to each other. :)

We need the chimney to be deep enough to be effective. Will that make it look less like a chimney?
Any thoughts on the potential uppers for the sink wall?

More pictures!

None of these are quite right...too many prep sinks for one thing...but I think elements in each one might work in your kitchen :) {{!gwi}}From Cottage house plans
{{!gwi}}From Cottage house plans

Notice this has the curved island? Is that still an option...thought your DH might like this one. {{!gwi}}From Cottage house plans

I like this one (it's the blue and the windows) but if you make the island wood with white marble top... {{!gwi}}From Cottage house plans

And something for your DH...maybe this will work in his pub room? :) {{!gwi}}From Cottage house plans

Lavender, I love 2,4, and 5. I still love the dark wood with the marble.
My husband loves the bar pic, thx!
So here's a thought--how about eliminating fridge wall counter and doing a large section of cabinets with doors that could function as an appliance garage or something since we have outlets there. Would that take us further from our plan?

Yes, you could do this, essentially creating a counter hidden behind doors. You would want to have a spot that functions as an immediate set-down spot for the fridge and especially microwave, though.

The microwave was moved to the island across from the range.
Should I do the cabinets next to the fridge the same height as the fridge and leave the top open? That might make the fridge not look built in though, which I hate.
Or, I could make the whole thing like a unit, right?

fwiw, I have a side-by-side and never sit anything down next it. Always behind, on the island. iow, having counter space next to the fridge isn't a big deal (I do have it to the left - pine hutch - but don't take things out/set on it).

Just a thought.

threeapples, you're situation is like mine. DH and the builder kept telling me I wasn't going to have a kitchen when we moved in if I didn't hurry up and decide/order. I had looked at almost every kitchen showroom in town and call/visited several custom builders. Either they couldn't build it or it was out of my price range. Finally, I went to the store (now closed) that had bespoke pieces made in England shipped over. People would come in and ask why didn't they do kitchens, so they started ordering kitchens from their cabinetmaker upon request. I thought it was going to be so out of my price range (was over the GC allowance for kitchen, laundry and baths - the kitchen cost the entire allowance), but I am so glad I held out because I got the kitchen I had planned and wanted. It's perfect for our home.

So just because DH is ribbing you, please don't give in - remind him, he has his pub. You want your kitchen!! All designers simply cannot do your type of kitchen (mine either), so you've either got to find someone that can help you (here is a good start!) or do it yourself.

If you get the design (for the most part) planned out, is your cabinetmaker savvy enough to build them without "designer plans?"

Allison, thanks for telling me about your situation, it gives me hope that I can get the kitchen I want with persistence and careful planning
I have. I have no idea of this new designer is right for the bespoke Englosh look and I'm not sure how to figure that out. My husband is increasingly frustrated with me taking so much time with the kitchen and now going into a very different direction. I refuse to hurry up just to appease everyone.
I now have to figure out a plan for the fridge wall and see if the cabinet guy can do new drawings since my husband doesn't want to spend thousands just for drawings. I'm not sure how savvy the cabinet guy is. His product is very nicely done and he's a really nice guy, but he's not in the business of offering advice on high design. After my kids are in bed I intend to do some drawings and I'll post back.

3apples- I'm glad you like the pictures! I had a feeling your DH might like that pub pic...it's such a 'guy room'! :)

I like the microwave at the island. What appliances will you have by the fridge? What appliances will be in the pretty garage, by the range?

One question...do you have enough room to open your fridge all the way for cleaning, or do you need a little space between the fridge and wall?

So, the designer is out for this application--didn't want to just do what I need help with in the kitchen because it's against their code of design. That leaves me with the cabinet guy who I will forward my inspiration images to on Monday and take it from there.
Not sure about the fridge having enough room, but I will try to figure that out.
I made some drawings, which I'll post in a few hours and intend to try to find a design that will work to incorporate the fridge and an appliance garage type thing next to it in the recessed area that is designated in this part of the kitchen. I'll need to drop drywall down, I think, and I worry that won't look good.
The appliances that will go by the fridge will be a coffee maker and I am thinking to do drawers on the bottom of the one by the range instead of a garage.
How do you know how tall to make the cabinets if they don't go to the ceiling? Should I have them go to the top of the window, which is 2 ft from the ceiling? Is that the height that the range wall one should go to as well?

3apples- If you need a spacer, between the fridge and wall, to get the doors all the way open...it's usually only a few inches wide.

I like the fourth picture, with the blue walls and the white paneled fridge (right above pub picture) so I would use that as an example and have the upper cabinets about even with the top or a regular window. But, I like the taller chimney/hood. The different heights make it more interesting...but the shorter cabinets leave room for the blue wall.

Some people want cabinets all the way to the top (they think the other way is too much of a dust catcher) but I think it looks more airy, with the wall showing above. Cabinets all the way to the ceiling seem very formal to me...so I guess it's what you like best, in your space.

If you're going to use the island as your fridge landing area...and you plan to have the coffee pot by the fridge...have you ever thought of adding a prep sink? I know you don't want one on the island, but a little bar sink might be handy by the fridge. For coffee, tea, drinks, water that doesn't come out of the fridge (they always taste like plastic to me...but that could be because I'm used to well water). No offense to anyone, who likes the fridge water :)

The fridge is a Subzero and although the door needs a doorswing, there is only a wall on the freezer door side, and it is flush with the front of the fridge. You would be able to look at the design specs on the Sub-Zero website and see what you need, but usually these are made to be installed in flush situations. Mine has about 1/8" on the hinge side between it and the next panel. However, mine is fully-integrated and yours is built-in I think. The drawing in the online manuals are very good.

undercabinet lighting is ok for my sink wall uppers? won't that take away from the look?

also, my electrician house outlets all over my range wall. that's going to look pretty bad, right?--especially if there's no backsplash on the range wall. uggh. not sure what to do.

I think you need (hidden) undercounter lighting there for practicality. Anything you do there will be in shadow if you only rely on the overhead lighting.

I think outlets can be more difficult if there is a patterned tile backsplash because they can interfere with the pattern. You need the outlets, so as long as they are reasonably spaced it's usually ok.

If you are concerned about them being too obvious and don't have a strong color preference for the kitchen yet, you could look at Lutron Satin Colors outlets and switches and choose a wall color that blended well with one of those.

should i do a wall like kateskouros did, something that is all cabinets next to the fridge-freezer and can have a concealed appliance garage with a counter in it?

Sure can :)

3apples- I really like this kitchen and maybe it will be a nice compromise for you and your husband :)

Notice the backsplash (marble tile?) behind the range...and the very pretty hood and surround. Also, the marble countertops...with white perimeter and wood island. I know you don't want the prep sink, but I think the cabinetry might be a nice option.

What do you think? Would this be something you both would like, in the kitchen? You could use the narrow marble backsplash, continue the marble tile...or use something else. I think the paneled fridge and hidden appliance garages would look great as a built-in/alcove type of feature. {{!gwi}}From Farmhouse plans

Theeapples,
One of the important facet of the room that make the design is the shape, ratio, scale and proportions of the room with the window. Obviously the room has tall ceiling. The house/building evokes an old 16th or 17th century European building with the scale of the window. Notice how tall and narrow the window is relative to what you see in a typical American house. The window goes all the way to the ceiling. When you couple that with the French range and 17th century appearing ornamentation, you get an old elegant European feel to the room.

Notice there is almost no ornamentation in the cabinets. You get most of the ornatmentation from the light fixture, mirror, and the furniture and most of all the gorgeous French range. The hood is simplefied to evoke a fireplace type of cooking with simple mantle above it, IMHO.

I think all the cabinet pictures that people have picked for you have too much 'ornamentation' in the cabinets. They scream "American" to me. I think what you want your kitchen to say is "old Europe".... Just asking...

I think the look I'm going for is English or English with a colonial hint to it. So, American is fine for me. I love the old world look, too, however, but think old English is more of what I want as opposed to Italian or other styles that come to my mind when I think old world.

You're right, the window in that photo is larger than ours, which ends at 8 ft tall.

I'm super nervous we can't pull ths off to look historic and it will end up just looking cheap and unfinished.

Do You really think it will look cheap and unfinished, or does ...somebody keep telling you it will look cheap and unfinished.

Look at the pictures from the various English websites you have been using for reference.

Identify, What, if anything, you feel looks cheap or unfinished about any of those kitchens. There may be something that looks unfinished to you, or something that you don't quite like.

After you have identified it, think of how you would change it more to your liking, while maintaining the essence of the look.

Understated, I can see, underdone, perhaps, unfinished, er, maybe. But cheap...I don't see that. Sometimes, it's very expensive to look cheap. Cheap and ostentatious are closer siblings than cheap and unfinished, imo.

I'm just going to take a guess...and say that the concerns about 'cheap and unfinished' could be that the cabinetry looks very plain, compared to what you usually see. Maybe understated is a better word.

I think the materials become VERY important in a situation like this. Much like a 'little black dress' that is very simple (elegant?) and everything depends on the cut and the fabric. With the right fabric, it's beautiful...wrong fabric or cut, and it can look cheap.

3apples- That being said, this kitchen style will probably need a very careful eye for detail. If you aren't sure exactly what you want, I would try to copy the cabinetry from one of your inspiration pictures. If you try to mix and match...it could be beautiful...or it could fall flat. If you don't feel confident pulling together this look on your own (or even with GW help) I'd think about another KD...or maybe another style of kitchen. Just my two cents.

Again, this is nothing against the style. I just think it would be much easier with some experienced assistance in kitchen planning and design. If you feel confident that between GW and your cabinet maker...you'll have all the help you need, then this could be a beautiful kitchen :)

3apples- Here's another kitchen that has some of your elements. Do you see anything you like yet, for cabinetry? Or are you going with something more understated?
{{!gwi}}From Cottage house plans

Have you seen this Georgian home in the link?

Might give you some ideas.

Here's the kitchen.

Here is a link that might be useful: Georgian

Good advice, lavender. I'm learning that some Georgian cabinetry did have raised panels. I think I'll be ok with that. In general I think I'm worried because I've only ever seen this kind of thing in a historic house and my house is going to look so green (though I'm trying hard to avoid that).
Lavender, you say this will need a good eye for ttention to detail, but what are you referring to? Do you mean hardware, lighting, or bigger things like the fridge wall or molding?

I was actually thinking about your first picture. It's very 'simple' in a way...since there are no upper cabinets, but it's also very elegant. The tile walls, the floor, the lovely range and hood, the shelf and (mural?) over the sink...and the furniture. The table and chairs are beautiful, but not a set. Fancier french style chairs with a more rustic (English?) table. And the lighting and other accessories, all make this one beautiful space.

The entire room seems very simple at first glance...but there's an incredible attention to every single detail, in this room. The two tones of wood...(armoire/cabinet?) and table, the creamy whites of the chairs, cabinets, the range...the brass lighting that picks up the brass of the range, door knob, and frame around the mural, the copper accent with the pots...etc. etc. etc.

The entire room is amazing, but it would take a lot of work, shopping, knowledge, etc (IMHO) to pull this room together. It's lovely, but without all the careful planning and attention to detail...you would have a very similar room, but not nearly as impressive. Just my two cents :)

I really agree with Kaismom, lavender and palimpsest's recent comments.

I'd guess that the most common mistake in trying to create a grand look is overdoing it. Maybe I don't have a good read on what look you're after, but it seems to me that the pictures you've posted are beautiful and distinctive BECAUSE of their simplicity.

I do think you'd be better off working with a good designer. As helpful and talented as GW posters can be, you're still left cobbling ideas together. I'm afraid it might not come together the way you envision. As someone above suggested, poor understanding of scale, proportion, color combination, etc, will make good individual elements turn into a bad room.

How much space should there be between the cook top and bottom of the vent hood and its chimney surround.

I agree with you all about scale and proportion for this room. I've passed the details along to my cabinet guy and will post jus drawings here and get the designer's take on it as well. This should be ok, right? Then I'll work with a designer for colors, hardware, lighting, and furnishings. Does this sound ok? I wish the designer would agree to do a color drawing, but I'll attempt that on my own.

You guys are the best.

The height of the vent hood/bottom edge of the chimney surround is based on the specs of your actually vent, or hood liner insert. For one of this size I think it tends to be around 27" -30" above the cooktop surface.

The good thing about having a mantel hood topped by a chimney covered in drywall is that the drywall and the framing is adjustable. If this were all cabinetry and custom panels you would have to know to the inch exactly where you wanted it. You have a bit of leeway.

3apples- Why are you using this designer? Is he/she doing something in the other rooms of the house? Have you thought about getting a kitchen designer, specifically? Or is this one supposed to be a KD?

So, my advice would be to get a real designer, who can help you with all these decisions. Someone who can see your space and help you make your dream kitchen a reality.

If this isn't possible (for whatever reason) then I don't understand why you would still use this designer to help you with colors, hardware, lighting and furnishings. If he/she can't be involved in the planning...why would he/she be helpful with the details? Your current designer is not going to have the same vision of the room and know what exactly you're trying to create. You could end up with a mess.

So, I'd recommend a new designer. Barring that...take pictures of every wall in your kitchen space and post them here on GW. Let Pal and some of the other experts help you create your kitchen and probably help you with your other choices, too. Design by committee can end up as a mess, too...so if you and Pal...maybe Eggdart have a similar vision, then I'd try to create the entire 'look' before going to the cabinetry guy or the designer, again.

Basically, you'd be asking them to be your default designer...which could be a challenge, but if they're willing to help you...you'll probably end up with a better designed/more beautiful kitchen!

Lavender, I've had a really tough time finding a good designer around here. This designer has won an award for kitchen design, but also does whole houses, which I'll need for help with paint colors, lighting, etc. I am not sure whether I should look now for a 4th designer or wait for the cabinet guy to do the drawings, get the designer's opinion (and GW community) and go from there with details.

I think much of the proportion is already a given.

The ceiling height and room dimensions are set.
The window size and placement are likely dictated by the facade.
The counter height is standard, the range hood size and height are dictated to a great extent by the size of the range and the hood specifications.
The cornice is dictated by that used in the adjacent room.
The recessed area of cabinets is dictated mostly by the refrigerator.
There are really only two proportions that need to be worked out: the appropriate size of the to-the-counter cabinet to the right of the range, and the cabinets to the right of the window.

These also have parameters: the window over the sink will set their relative positions on one end and the end of the counter run is a reasonable termination of the cabinetry on that end.

I would line up the top of the cabinet trim with the top of the window trim.

The room is really telling you what to do. Whether you chose recessed panel cabinets, raised panel cabinets, full inset or partial overlay, or a combination of these is all a matter of taste, and any of these would be appropriate.

We met with the cabinet guy today and, thankfully, he's happy to draw up a new set of plans for us! :) I'm not sure whether it helped that I baked him a loaf of zucchini bread....

So, he made a quick sketch of the area adjacent to the fridge and suggests we recess it a little bit so the counter has something to rest against. My husband is suggesting we recess the uppers to 15" deep so we have counter to work on (mixer or coffee maker or vitamix). I'm thinking we should do bifold doors that recess into the sides of the unit for the top half and have the counter be the marble. We were also thinking of doing the right upper area of the unit (when open) to be nooks for bills, mail, keys, etc., have the rest of that half of uppers be adjustable shelves.

On another note, I'm including an image of the potential crown for the uppers in the kitchen. It's the second sample down. If we do dentil on the wall and this on the cabinets (I think this one is 3.5") will this be too fussy?

The most appropriate SHAPE is the last one. It has a supporting bedmold under the top corona. It might be a bit small though?

The second one down is INcorrect in that it has a terminating moulding under the corona, which is also terminating, so it's a double terminating molding.

If you could do the second one down WITHOUT that top corona piece it, would be fine, especially if the scale is better. But as it is, its a bit overwrought especially since there will be cornice on the ceiling.

any thoughts on the cabinet guy's drawing for the cabinetry next to the fridge?

I like it especially if the above the counter cabs are shallower and you do doors that can be slid back as you said.

Also, don't forget to do undercabinet lighting inside the recessed doors of that unit to light that counter area.

I like it too, it's a nice arrangement of doors. Just for the heck of it, I sketched it out with the shorter doors on the very top, and it didn't look as good as his drawing.

I don't know if two different moldings would be too much -- my guess is that it would. You're not going to go with the egg and dart motif? ;)

egganddart, we're having "your" motif on the door knobs inside the house and on the crown in the foyer. i love the meaning of it and had to use it, so don't worry, it will be prevalent.

so you both think the top portion of this area should be recessed compared to the bottom, which will show part of the marble counter. how deep should it be?

the under cabinet lights would only be helpful when the doors (second from top down) are open, right?

Yes, the under cabinet lighting would only be helpful when the doors were opened.

15" deep on the upper is probably good.

You could put a small aperture recessed light above these cabinets if necessary. Sometimes function has to trump esthetic concerns.

will this be too much hutch on this wall? further down, in the eat-in area, they are building me a freestanding hutch that i'm still trying to decide on finish (paint vs. stain).

Depth of upper cabs: what's going in the cabinets? That can give you a guideline. My uppers rest on a marble counter; they're 14 1/2" deep, and about 11 1/2" of counter sits in front of them. Here's a picture.

I haven't read all the posts, so you might have talked about this. Is the drawing the cabinetmaker just made the replacement for Elevation A? If so, I like that the microwave isn't showing anymore, if that's what that was. In the original elevation you had three doors on the upper cabs. in the new sketch there are four, in a space about 60" wide -- is that right? The cabinet doors are going to be narrow, just so you're aware of that. Not necessarily too narrow, but make sure it looks okay in relation to the other doors.

I don't know what to say about the hutch. It's probably separated enough that it won't matter, especially if the two pieces look different enough.

Slow down a bit and think about what that would actually be like to USE. Where would those doors be when open? What small appliances could you actually use considering there's no water nearby? Is the counter actually usable at all or will opening any of the lower doors preclude resting anything on the counter? Will the ref door run into open cabinet doors?

It the path in front very minor? Because anyone using the area will block the area in front of the doorway.

Where is the micro now?

The microwave has been moved to the island.

The doorway is the second means to the mudroom area, so there is some traffic. But the door opening is 36" and the aisle is 48"-60" in this location and residential hallways can be minimum 36" for the passage of two people so it won't be completely impassable if someone is standing there.

I would put water on the island too, but if the coffee maker is here it could be filled from the fridge dispenser if there is one. This location would be point of service for someone seated at the island but not in the breakfast area, and it is far from the sink.

But sometimes point-of-use can be overstated. Some people eat every day in their formal dining rooms, or outside almost all summer without water or a fridge very close,so it depends upon how you live.

The counter adjacent to the fridge and the cabinet doors when open, should not project beyond the face of the fridge panels. So, make sure you work this out in the design with the cabinet maker.

I thought the coffee maker was going to be stored, in the range appliance garage? Are those drawers, now? It would be easier to make coffee (IMHO) if you're closer to the sink...and the cabinets with the coffee cups/mugs.

By the fridge, I like the idea of the recessed area on the countertop. This would be great for the toaster and might be a good location for the microwave, too. Just make sure you have enough clearance to use the toaster...without it being too close to the upper cabinets. We always have to pull ours out, away from the uppers, to use it.

fwiw, many small sinks are not coffeemaker friendly. DH never uses the one in the coffee station to make coffee - carafe doesn't fit under easily or come out w/o spilling water. I never use to fill pitcher since it's a bother to move spout, etc.

Same thing about refrigerator water taps - not pots, not pitchers, not large measuring stuff, not bowls with spouts.

I know point-of-use can be over rated, but coffee pots pretty much always move to the water source. That can be really annoying as can toaster burners on the bottom of the cabinet above or having to lug a heavy mixer over to the island when you EXPECTED to be able to use it in place.

I don't care what the poster picks, I care that she knows what those choices mean. I would just hate it if the op somehow expected to be able to leave the doors open but just didn't picture the two center doors sticking out in the middle of the counter, banging into each other or the end doors banging into the ref or the wall.

Sure, the cabinet distance would have to be appropriate to the undercounter appliances kept there. I think though, if your toaster can scorch the bottom of your cabinets when they are the standard height of 18" + above the counter, you've got other problems to worry about :) For what it's worth I covered the entire underside of my cabinets with stainless to better reflect and diffuse the lighting and to make them a bit more heat resistant.

This "hutch" is not in a run of cabinets so it can be whatever height the poster needs and it would not throw other areas off. The doors may have to be folding AND pocket in order to retract fully enough. A tambour that opened side to side would be historically accurate, but it would need a bottom track which would catch crumbs and that would be a pain to keep clean. The side styles could be wide enough that each door was under 24" and at least then it would retract past the depth of the fridge, and that would solve that issue.

I actually find the water things in most refrigerators really inconvenient. In that regard I think the coffeemaker could end up under one of the cabinets on either side of the sink. This kitchen is large enough and the two seating areas distinct enough in location that there really won't be a single point-of-use for a number of things, but the distances from point A to point B in this house are substantial anyway, so that's ok.

I'm thinking folding + pocket doors for the doors above the counter on the fridge area hutch makes most sense.

our water dispenser is located on the inside of the fridge door so it's not visible from the exterior. i agree, this will likely not be the way to fill the coffee carafe.

i'll have to go back and look at the sink wall uppers--i guess i didn't notice we gained another one. are you all suggesting three, four, or five is best?

How's it going?