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Please help me achieve this (new) look...

Posted by threeapples (My Page) on
Fri, Jun 22, 12 at 21:46

So my last thread just got too long and confusing. Here's my situation: my cabinets should go into production in a few weeks and I'm majorly second-guessing the entire look of my kitchen for our new build Georgian house (we hope it's somewhat historic looking). The kitchen will be seen from our great/family room, which is going to be rather formal. I'm thinking looking at a sea of cabinets is not the best thing. Here are the things in our kitchen which we cannot change: montclair danby marble honed for all counters and island, stained french casement window above farmhouse sink, door on range hall to mud room, door on sink wall near eat in area into keeping room, opening into family room on wall opposite range, fridge/freezer on wall opposite sink.

what I like about the following pictures is the simplicity and elegance of the designs, the lack of a "Sea of cabinetry", the fact that these look like old and historic, and they don't look like I went to a kitchen designer and let them design it all at once.

i'm desperate for advice on how to do this, what to add, eliminate, or change from my plan, what do do for a range wall back splash (i'm thinking no back splash on sink wall), and how to achieve this look with two fixtures set to hang above island and one above kitchen table (advice on style would be fantastic).

Range wall, Uploaded with Snapbucket

http://www.plainenglishdesign.co.uk/spitalfields-3

Photobucket

what i have designed now:
fridge wall and range wall

Photobucket

drawing i just did for range wall:
Kitchen option, Uploaded with Snapbucket

island and hutch
Photobucket

Here is a link that might be useful: english kitchen


Follow-Up Postings:

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RE: Please help me achieve this (new) look...

So are you saying you're wanting to eliminate the uppers on either side of the hood, pair down all the geometrics adorning the hood, and simplify the hutch type piece that comes down to the counter? If so, I think you are working toward achieving the look you are after. I'm not as well versed on this style as others so take what I say with a grain of salt. I think I'd like to see the smaller uppers on the sink run with glass in them. I think that look really lightens things up.


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RE: Please help me achieve this (new) look...

Yes, elimate the uppers altogether from the range wall.


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RE: Please help me achieve this (new) look...

Yes, elimate the uppers altogether from the range wall.


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RE: Please help me achieve this (new) look...

This is just a little bit of thinking about that look:

And I got the idea of using grooved fronts from this pic showing a completely panelled room. The glass door front on the corner built-in is good idea for a glass inset cabinet front. Hoping the pic shows up. The people in the link designed and made the panels.

Here is a link that might be useful: lefevre interiors


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RE: Please help me achieve this (new) look...

I think just changing the range wall to your drawing will give you an excellent combination of formal cabinetry and simple elegance. You could take it one step further by eliminating the single cabinet on that wall and doing open shelving for some really beautiful glass and silver pieces next to that window. But at any rate, your drawing looks WAY less busy and cluttered than the schematic.


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RE: Please help me achieve this (new) look...

Skip doing "cabinets" for most of it, and look for furniture pieces instead. For a dish hutch, there are loads and loads of china cabnets on Craigslist nowadays. Eveyone is eliminating formal dining from their lives. Take advantage of that.

Do a "spice armoire" near the range from a repurposed TV armoire that are also being gotten rid of in droves. Then just do open shelving near the range with pot hooks below for your pot and pan storage. Have a couple of butcher block tables under those open shelves with open storage for large industrial cannisters of baking materials, pet food, etc.

For the sink run, do it in a separate color and make it all drawer storage with the china cabinet at the end for the dishes. I'd want a stainless steel top with integrated sink personally for that run, but if you're already too far down another road, it will be fine as long as you treat every single run like separate furniture pieces and avoid matching them. You want different colors and cabinet profiles for everything, but it still needs to coordinate into a harmonious whole.


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RE: Please help me achieve this (new) look...

By giving up uppers, you are giving up cabinet space. Just make sure you have enough cabinets. I wanted a sink wall with no cabinets and all windows and had to give it up for a larger window (6 ft maybe) and two glass uppers.

I think in your first picture, they have a wall of cabinets on the stained cabinet side.

I would get rid of the sink wall uppers. They seem to be in no man's land.

I can understand why you want to cut back on the stove wall, but I am not sure because with the type of hood you are going with, it might look too disconnected. I usually see that look with an angled hood. Have you thought about going with a stone or copper or distressed zinc hood? It might give you an old world feel.


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RE: Please help me achieve this (new) look...

the "stained side" in my first pic appears, to me, to be a hutch of some sort, which i will also have in that same location, actually.

if i get rid of the range wall uppers i'll need the sink wall uppers to put drinking glasses and probably extra plates.

finestra, the 1st pic has the exact hood i want and is not angled. you think it's not right looking?

i've looked into copper and zinc and they are both out of budget, but i agree they are very pretty and old world.

hollysprings, you make a lot of sense. doing different profiles, etc. seems to be in keeping with this feel. i'm afraid i don't know how to do it so it doesn't look accidental, however. i've already committed to the marble for all surfaces and can't turn back now, i'm afraid.

bmorepanic, thanks for the time you put into this :) i love lefevre interiors and follow Greet's blog. Unfortunately we can't turn the hutch into an inset because of the wall configuration behind it.

smaller uppers on the sink run.....i'll have to think about that. wish i had some sort of software to draw this all up with instead of pencil and tracing paper or my imagination.

thanks, everyone, i've got more brainstorming to do!


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RE: Please help me achieve this (new) look...

Whatever you come up with, I definitely like the way you're going. Keep cooking! :)


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RE: Please help me achieve this (new) look...

I think your hood drawing looks fine. Maybe add some sort of corbel to the cabinets on the sink run to make it connect visually to the cabinets below (like a hutch) without losing counter space.


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RE: Please help me achieve this (new) look...

I like the wood cabinet on the one wall of your inspiration picture. Can you do the fridge wall in a darker wood? I know you plan to make the island wood, but now I'm wondering if that will be too heavy in the middle of the room. Maybe keep that lighter, like your table in the picture?

I know you said you want marble everywhere, but a light cabinet with wood top would look more like your picture. Maybe you could use the marble as a backsplash behind the range? Just throwing ideas out...disregard what you don't like :)


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Also

Also, if you did decide to have the light cabinetry with wood top on the island...it would make it easy to include the curve at the seating area. Much like all the curves on your dining room table and chairs, in your picture. Are you planning to use a bit of french style for your stools or dining chairs?

As for lighting, I like the chandlier for the table area and something similar for the island. I don't suppose they have pendants that look like candlesticks?


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RE: Please help me achieve this (new) look...

Maybe a painted island would work better and then do a stained hutch? Or a dark gray painted hutch? This is so hard!
We have it set for two fixtures above the island and can't change that.
I want to keep it simple. Should I eliminate crown molding in the room?


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RE: Please help me achieve this (new) look...

Do you have crown molding in the rooms that open up to the kitchen?

And, you can probably change the fixtures pretty easily above the island, especially if you're using drywall. It's a bit of expense for the electrician to come back and put in a single fixture and patch the drywall...but you would save on the cost of one of the fixtures.

Do you have a single fixture you like for the island...or just trying to come up with ideas? I think you need Pal's help on this, too...but I do like your inspiration picture and think it would be a beautiful kitchen in your home :)


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Picture

Probably not the right style, but an example of multiple lights from one fixture. Maybe a little more historic look that pendants?

From Kitchen plans


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RE: Please help me achieve this (new) look...

We have an 8 in tall dentil molding in the formal room this can be seen from and a very simple molding in the other rooms that the kitchen is connected to.
Nope, no light fixtures chosen yet. We will have sconces mounted on window Cadillac g and my husband wanted 2 lights above the island and one centered in the table do they didn't interrupt the line of sight when viewed from the family/great room.


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Another picture

This hood might be too fancy, but just in case...I like the wall pot/lid racks on either side, the recessed area for the pot filler...and the sconces :)

From Cottage house plans


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RE: Please help me achieve this (new) look...

how funny, lavender, that hood was one of the first we looked at when we began this process, but it was really pricey and a little too French for me. I love the pot racks and sconces, too :)


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RE: Please help me achieve this (new) look...

I would still consider the to the ceiling cabinet on the far right since it excuses the asymmetry, but it is too wide. It needs to be half that wide. 24" the same as the width of the sink run it faces.


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RE: Please help me achieve this (new) look...

Pal- That would look really nice! Do you think the pot racks on the wall would look okay on either side of the range, instead of upper cabinets?

3apples- Is that what your range will look like? It seemed similar to your drawing, which is why I posted it :)


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RE: Please help me achieve this (new) look...

Lavender, ours is a 60" Wolf.
I'll tell the cabinet guy the change in size, palimpsest. Should I do leaded glass with drawers on the bottom, wood millions, or open shelves in a hutch style?


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RE: Please help me achieve this (new) look...

You're after an unfitted kitchen - one with little or no "normal" kitchen cabinets.

Our kitchen is open to great room - hence no counter height seating (didn't want it or to see bar stool backs from great room), no pendants over island (wanted it to looks as little like a kitchen as I could get away with!), etc.

I do not have cabinets on either side of the range. Choices included only tiling behind range or tiling the entire wall. I tiled behind the range and on the sides (since DH likes to cook and can be messy) went three high. My tile guy started tiling and was almost done when I walked in, or else the tiles would have staggered joints and minimal grout line - I've thought about having it redone, but then thoughts of the mess it would make stops me!

I'll link my kitchen here, then post again to link another article with pantries. Look at the larder (English). Hold a lot. If you get rid of your uppers you'll either needs a large armoire to act as a pantry, a large pantry or a larder type of pantry.

Here is a link that might be useful: my kitchen


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pantry ideas

Pantry ideas:

Here is a link that might be useful: pantry


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RE: Please help me achieve this (new) look...

Gorgeous, Allison. I've actually seen your kitchen online and really admired it.


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RE: Please help me achieve this (new) look...

Love the pantries! I will post the specs for mine in a bit to get advice how to achieve a similar style.
Allison, what do you suggest I do with my fridge area?
Thanks


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RE: Please help me achieve this (new) look...

Here is a plan with our pantry info:
Photobucket

you can see it's a rather odd configuration and not a huge space either. can i do anything interesting with it?


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RE: Please help me achieve this (new) look...

"Should I do leaded glass with drawers on the bottom, wood millions, or open shelves in a hutch style?"

I would probably do wood mullions and open on the counter like a hutch. (Unless you have a particular plan for the drawers there.)


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RE: Please help me achieve this (new) look...

thanks, palimpsest. i'll try to come up with a drawing of this wall and get back to brainstorming for the fridge wall.
should i decrease the width of the uppers on the sink wall so they don't end where the lowers do?


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RE: Please help me achieve this (new) look...

"should i decrease the width of the uppers on the sink wall so they don't end where the lowers do?"

I don't think this is necessary. Are these custom? If so you could make the "reveal" on each side of the window even.

*What refrigerator are you using and is it set in stone?*
I have a reason for asking.


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RE: Please help me achieve this (new) look...

they are custom. the reveal on each side of the window will be even if we do the ceiling to counter cab on the range wall the right depth. the trick will be mounting sconces on the window casing. any suggestions with that?

my husband chose a 48" sub zero with internal dispenser. what's your reason, palimpsest? :)


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RE: Please help me achieve this (new) look...

Why don't you do the sink w/base and DW, but instead of cabinets to the right w/uppers, do freestanding hutch or armoire to store dishes, glassware, etc.

Do you already own the DW? If not, have you considered Dish Drawers?

What is the open space, far right-bottom of the range? Looks void of any cabinet. ???


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link

Take a look at this link - light in color, has cream base cabinets and light/unfinished uppers. Note the antique pine hutch:

Here is a link that might be useful: Georgian house kitchen


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fridge ideas

You asked about the fridge, need to think on that... but I'm not crazy about the stacked pieces above it. Here is a kitchen with the same look, but the top section is different - breaks up the monotony - although the glass isn't right for you. What do you plan on storing there? And are those two cabinets (as drawn) lift ups?

Here is a link that might be useful: above fridge


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RE: Please help me achieve this (new) look...

yes, they're lift ups. i have no idea what we'd store up there. i don't know what to do differently above the fridge.

the open space far right on bottom of range is just a lower cabinet.

yes, we have the dishwashers. i think cabinets to the right of the sink would be better for storage than open armoire configuration. we will have a freestanding armoire on the opposite wall in the eat-in area.

this is so difficult, but thank goodness i have all of these great suggestions! :)


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RE: Please help me achieve this (new) look...

Just do conventional doors over the fridge.


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RE: Please help me achieve this (new) look...

If you're eliminating your upper storage by the range...and maybe having more of an armoire look by the fridge...what about having a shelf above the fridge with a big plant or lovely vase? I'm tall and I can never access that storage, so why not display something, instead?

Are you going to be keeping any of the very upper cabinets, you show in your original plan? I think it looks nicer with the open wall space, as you have it in your inspiration picture. It feels light and airy...and you have that great pantry :)


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RE: Please help me achieve this (new) look...

what do you mean do conventional doors over the fridge? just cabinet paneling?

palimpsest, i don't mean to be ignorant, but i have no idea what you mean about recessing the fridge. we can't go further back with the wall there because of what's behind it.

if i turned the sink wall uppers into a hutch like thing we might have too many hutch-like elements in this kitchen.

does anyone have an inspiration pic for the counter cabinet on the range wall--i need something to show my cabinet guy and i have no idea anymore. i can't find anything online!

lavender, which "very uppers" do you mean? on the range wall, no, on the sink wall, i'm not sure, on the fridge wall, i think those cabs will provide useful storage.

thanks so much for these helpful responses.


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RE: Please help me achieve this (new) look...

See my email your fridge already IS recessed, it is outside the rectangular main perimeter of the kitchen.


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RE: Please help me achieve this (new) look...

by the way, what do i do to my island to work in this style and space? is stained cherry a mistake? my casement window will be stained. i've yet to choose a stain for the red oak hardwood floors here because the flooring guy is super slow. dark is out, right? maybe i should paint the island and the hutch instead of staining them?


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RE: Please help me achieve this (new) look...

Dark is not necessarily out for the floors.

How "period" do you want the floors to look?

I would probably paint the cabinetry, in this type of project. At least in my location, only fine furniture was wood finish, (or rustic furniture), but built-ins or millwork were painted during this period, for the most part.


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RE: Please help me achieve this (new) look...

3apples- I asked this question earlier, but I don't know if you saw it...if you paint the island, can you use a wood countertop there, instead of the marble? If so, would that marble work as a backsplash for your range?

A stained island countertop to match your window would look good and you could use the same shade for the floors or make them a little darker. Just a few ideas :)


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RE: Please help me achieve this (new) look...

Lavender, I'd love to put wood on the island top, but my husband is not on board with that.
If we paint the island will it need to be repaired every few years?
Not sure how period about the floors. They will be 5 in wide red oak, rift and quarter sawn in lengths starting at 8 ft. I dislike the look of light oak for my floors.


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RE: Please help me achieve this (new) look...

What if your husband could have the curve that he wants, in the stool area? Would that make a difference? And I don't think you'd have to touch up the island that much...but if you did, it would probably be eaiser to touch up the paint than the stain.

The only reason I mention it is that Breezy and others have marble perimeters and wood island countertops...mainly so they can protect the marble a little more, by using the island for any messy work, in the kitchen. Making lemonade, for example...

Here's a link to Breezy's kitchen...and she also has a cabinet down to the countertop, but by her sink :)

From Cottage house plans

Here is a link that might be useful: Link to Breezy's kitchen


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RE: Please help me achieve this (new) look...

True period for the floors would be raw or painted.

If you are going for aged period it would be dark as the floors oxidized.


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RE: Please help me achieve this (new) look...

I'm not sure how dark they'd get if oxidized, but I'll search for photos.
My husband thinks wood counters are fragile, unhygienic, and he doesn't like them, sadly. I convinced him to do wood counters in the butlers pantry, however.


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RE: Please help me achieve this (new) look...

What about something like this first picture?

Here is a link that might be useful: refrigeration in disguise


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RE: Please help me achieve this (new) look...

3apples- You should have your husband read some of these GW threads! Apparently, Waterlox makes wood countertops almost indestructible. And, no staining and etching, like the marble.


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RE: Please help me achieve this (new) look...

Here, the floors would have been pine (much harder than it is now) and the oxidation would have been reddish brown. With oak I would probably go pretty dark brown I think.


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RE: Please help me achieve this (new) look...

Thought of you again:


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RE: Please help me achieve this (new) look...

that's really pretty, Allison.

I'm going to try to do a drawing of the sink and fridge walls now with cabinets that don't go to the ceiling. I'm sort of wondering why I'm doing this and not the designer! Anyway, I'll post what I have in a bit.

By the way, yes, I alerted my husband to the durability of wood island tops and he certainly knows marble isn't tough (I chose the marble after being tired of looking) but he doesn't believe what he hears about the wood. Don't get me started......


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RE: Please help me achieve this (new) look...

so if i take the sink wall cabinets down from the ceiling do i need to do the same with the single cabinet on the range wall and the cabinets on the fridge wall? here's a little drawing i did of the sink wall with the cabinets brought down. i didn't want to bring them down to the counter because i need counter space. Uploaded with Snapbucket


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RE: Please help me achieve this (new) look...

I think this is working. I emailed you, too. It may be easier for you to convey this on paper by doing it yourself rather than trying to explain it to your designer, who may not quite get what what you are driving at without a visual.


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RE: Please help me achieve this (new) look...

Is Plain English building your cabinets? I have an English style kitchen, and love the general style of the Plain English kitchens you linked. The emphasis there is on "plain". This style takes its cue from the kitchens of the old aristocratic mansions, which were simple and functional, where the servants worked. Later, when kitchens in upscale houses were used by the homeowner, I suppose they became fussier, more in keeping with the general decor. I'm not sure which style you're after, but you linked the PE site, so I'm guessing the uncluttered look is what you want. If so, eliminate almost all of the fussy details.

This starts with the cabinet construction. Inset cabinet drawers can have a flat front or a frame and panel front. The doors' panels can be flat or beveled. In both cases, the FLAT panel is an important stylistic detail. Another important stylistic detail is that British frames are a lot wider than those usually used in American F&P construction.

Likewise, keep moldings very simple.

And then there's cabinet placement. Hanging uppers were a 20th century, "modern kitchen" look. I'd avoid them. Stretches of these are, to me, what signify a modern-looking kitchen. Shallow open shelving, uppers that reach all the way down to the counter, and possible use of glass doors are more authentic. If you have to go with a wall-mounted upper cabinet, consider corbels between the cabinet and wall or, better, between the cabinet bottom and the base cabinet. That way it looks more like a hutch. I wouldn't go with leaded glass. That's more English Tudor than Plain English. You don't even need muntins on the glass unless the doors are fairly wide. I mean, yes, muntins were necessary for the small panes of glass used in the old days. But they do add more detail that may contribute to a busy look, and if your windows have divided lights, it'll be tricky to make them harmonious with each other.


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RE: Please help me achieve this (new) look...

egganddart, i love your moniker.

nope, plain english isn't making my cabinets. a local outfit is making them for us and they make a really nice product.

ok, so i switch out my beaded inset with raised panel for beaded inset with no raised panel?

gotcha on the leaded glass, that makes sense.

i'm super nervous this is great in theory, but i won't pull it off!

still totally in the dark on how to handle my fridge area!

and, my husband had two fixture spots put in above the island and that screams transitional or something to me. uggh!

thanks for the great advice.


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RE: Please help me achieve this (new) look...

3apples- I'm kind of wondering what happened to your designer, too. Didn't you find someone to help you with the kitchen, as well as the rest of the house? I would think you could take your inspiration pictures in and the designer would have a pretty good idea what you like and want, in your space.

While I can see the allure of an historic kitchen...you also have some more transitional elements. It would be great if you could take the best of both and find someway to combine them into a look that works for you.

Maybe simplifying the cabinetry and adding a few hutch elements will give you the look you want...but still work with your existing lighting plan, marble countertops and even a subway tile backsplash, if you still like that.

I say trust your gut and pick out your favorite pictures, specify what you really like in each picture. See if you have some common elements and what appeals to you most. Then, show your pictures here, get some feedback...and then take the whole package to your designer! :)


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RE: Please help me achieve this (new) look...

I agree with lavender, take the best elements and combine them.

A simple bead with flat panel is nice-- dresses it up a little, but doesn't make it too busy.

I haven't followed all your different posts, so sorry if some of my comments are out of place. You don't have to answer if it's too time consuming to repeat!

First of all, what kind of overall look are you going for? Is it more or less like Plain English Spitalfields? Your first post mentioned white glazed cabinets, stained cherry island, dark perimeter counters and Carrara island top. Is this still your plan? I don't see that fitting in with the Spitalfields look -- too many differing elements. Plain English is very uniform in style and color. My fear is that your kitchen will look too busy. I also don't think Carrara marble, which is grayish, would go that well with cherry. Calacatta is a gorgeous, warm creamy marble that might go better, but it's two or three times the cost of Carrara. Are you intending to stain the cherry, or did you just mean a clear finish on it? Cherry isn't usually stained. Two different counter materials are often used to good effect, and same with painted/unpainted cabinets. But four different materials plus appliances... I think it's too much. For the Spitalfields look you might consider foregoing cherry on the island. Is the window frame the only other wood element that's not painted? What are the door trims going to be?

Some other random thoughts. A few things bother me on the sink wall. The varying heights of window, upper cabinets, doorway, and the scale of the window. Some possibilities are to have a taller window, or lower the cabinet height, or maybe raise the height of the opening between the kitchen and other rooms? I've seen lots of kitchens where some upper cabinets go up to the ceiling and others don't, but not if you're looking for a more formal, planned look. And the proportions within the window as shown in the elevation are odd: usually the glass panes are taller than wide. Your recent sketch is better proportioned all around.

I hope I haven't discouraged you! I've done lots of remodeling and I know how it is to second guess yourself. You're getting some really good input from people here though.


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RE: Please help me achieve this (new) look...

I don't know what happened to the designer, I've not heard back for several days. I'm feeling kind of on my own and am worried I'm making mistakes.

I see your point on the sink wall elevations. I'm not sure the height of the window, but I'll
Double-check that.

I like the Spitalfields look, especially the one with the cream walls and chandelier. I also love the look of my Montclair danby counters and dark stained wood. I have no idea how to keep going because I fear I've got disparate taste. I'm way beyond when we should have had the cabinets in production so time is also an issue.

I need to change the design of the island, right? The counter slab stays, but I don't know how to redesign the look to be appropriate.

You guys are the best. Thanks.


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RE: Please help me achieve this (new) look...

I like the new sink wall drawing! It looks more spacious, without the very upper cabinets.

I found a few pictures on the Internet...I don't know if this kitchen is actually Georgian, but it's pretty :)

From Fairy tale cottage

And there are some other examples on the link, below.

This kitchen is supposed to be Edwardian, but it looks very familiar (LOL) but still nice.

From Lavender Lass farmhouse pictures

Here is a link that might be useful: Harval kitchen link...georgian style


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RE: Please help me achieve this (new) look...

What about something like this?

Here is a link that might be useful: Habersham Kitchens


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RE: Please help me achieve this (new) look...

Who's going to design the cabinets if you change them? Is there still time to redesign? The Spitalfields kitchen you like -- it seems it's the pale, sort of sun drenched look that appeals to you..? For this you have to keep your palette light colored and avoid punctuating it with different colors. I understand the disparate taste thing, but I think you might have to make a hard choice if you want to achieve this look. I do think a cherry island would disrupt it, as would any other use of dark wood. The marble counters should be great though, keeping that overall pale-etherial look. Also, this consistent, light color palette will go a long way toward achieving a unified look, making up for any imperfect choices in cabinet design.

Your range hood -- is it the one in the top photo, or the blueprint's "Elevation B" ? The one in the photo is perfect.

About the island-- what don't you like about it? Can you afford, storage wise, to have it be more table-like, as in the Spitalfields islands? If not, look at picture 1 in Plain English's Queen Anne House: it's a combination of solid storage and legged table, to lighten it up a bit. It's easy for an island to look blocky if it's a solid cube, especially when it's all doors. Are you going to have pull-outs inside the doors on the stove side? If so, why not convert some of those doors to drawers? They're more convenient than pull-outs, and they break up the facade in a nice way. Will the other side have stools? If so, they'll pretty much cover up the cabinet doors, so I wouldn't worry about them much.

Have you figured out how much storage you actually need? It's a trade-off with open wall space. The hutch will store a lot, as will the island and the base cabinets. You might not need many uppers. Given a choice between using them on the stove or sink wall, I'm thinking sink? With glass doors, they'll appear something of an extension of the window. The important thing is you don't want them to dwarf the window. That same Queen Anne pic has a nice bank of glass fronted upper cabinets.


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RE: Please help me achieve this (new) look...

Thanks, I'll check the images you reference and post back.
My designer says it will take 10-12 hours to plug all the measurements into cad and do elevation drawings. This, at $120/hr seems like a huge expense. The cabinet guy doesn't work in cad so we can't just manipulate his plans. Not sure what to do about all this.


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RE: Please help me achieve this (new) look...

Think of this, though. Your new concept has eliminated two entire banks of upper-upper cabinets, the cabinets that flank the hood, and an elaborate hood, and will probably result in a simpler island. The cabinetry will be significantly less expensive due to # of cabinets alone.


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RE: Please help me achieve this (new) look...

I think if you paint upper cabinets similar in color to the walls it will reduce there visual impact - I would probably have the island and maybe the bottom cabinets darker to contrast more - bringing attention away from the upper cabinets.


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RE: Please help me achieve this (new) look...

Your designer sounds expensive! Can't you find someone else to help you with the elevations, until you get one that's just right. Then, use that for the cabinet maker or have the designer do a final drawing.

Between the high prices and the (seemingly) lack of attention that you're getting...have you considered finding another desiger? I'm sure there are some wonderful people available, who would be more attentive and affordable...not to mention that you have a big project. I can't imagine there isn't another (possibly better?) option for you :)


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RE: Please help me achieve this (new) look...

lavender, i am out of time to look for another designer--that would be our 3rd designer and nothing to show for it with any of them.
i'll give her a few hours and email again seeing if we can do something soon.

my husband is really worrying me because he thinks if we go the route of this new style the kitchen will look unfinished and "cheap." i have no idea how we'll pull this off. i'm about to check out egganddart's imagery and post back in a bit.


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yes, i guess i do like the ethereal look. the problem is that the doors in the room (passage to mud room and pantry) are going to be stained cherry. will that take away from the light colors that we'll do for the cabinets and walls?

also, if my island is painted the same light color (to be determined) as the cabinets, how will that look with the montclair danby top? it seems all these georgian kitchens have wood island tops. will this throw my look off?

perhaps i should see how/if i can get one of those rods to mount inside the range hood area and look for antique georgian ladles to hang on it. might that help the look?

egganddart, the range hood will look like the photo--drywall with a molding shelf/mantle-like element.


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Pictures

3apples- I can understand your husband's concern. I think he's expecting a bit more carving and details...more like his pub room, but white. Maybe that's something to think about...is the kitchen the only room with this more historic look? Is the great room going to have regular sofas and chairs?

Here are a few pictures that I think might help. I'm not clear on why you have the (cherry?) window trim, but I'm guessing it matches some of the other areas that the kitchen is open to...so let's see if we can find something that really works in your space :)

Here's a nice white and marble kitchen...with a range and long cabinet, similar to yours (but without the glass).

From Cottage house plans

Here's a wood hutch that would pick up on the window trim, in case you want a white island.

From Cottage house plans

Here's a wood island (but wrong floor) with the white cabinets...but you can see a bit of the diamond pane glass uppers, on the right.

From French Country Kitchen

Are any of these what you want to see, as you walk into the kitchen each morning? Hope this helps :)


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RE: Please help me achieve this (new) look...

Okay, just read the post on cherry doors...now the windows make sense! My favorite picture is the second one. And you notice, it's stone on the island :)


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RE: Please help me achieve this (new) look...

you're great, lavender.
i like the last image best.

the sink window itself is wood, but the surrounding trip, atop which sconces will be mounted, will be painted white. the doors in the room will be cherry, as they are all over the first floor, and trim for those will be painted white.

yes, the rest of the house will be rather historic looking. the main exceptions are the kids playroom, the master bathroom, and potentially my son's room.


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RE: Please help me achieve this (new) look...

Elegance never looks cheap, and trying to create fine style by piling on more and more details can be problematic. Creating a kitchen that looks like you bought the whole cabinet line...results in a kitchen that looks like that. Less really can be more, and I very much like what you are trying to do. It's worth going for. On the prosaic side, maybe reassure your husband that more cabinets could be added in later if desired?


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RE: Please help me achieve this (new) look...

thanks for the vote of confidence, Rosie :)


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RE: Please help me achieve this (new) look...

my husband is saying no way to 12 hours of a designer for $120/hr just to figure out cabinetry in the kitchen. even if i could convince him that would make it impossible for me to use a designer to help with paint colors and lighting choices.
seriously, how do people do this? did you all use designers?
i'm worried if i attempt to iron out the details of the cabinetry i'll screw it up and then will have to live with a mistake because of some kind of error.


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I think you need to evaluate that $1400 in the context of what the budget for the kitchen is and what the budget for the house is. This sounds penny-wise and pound foolish.

Anyway I spent a couple minutes sketching what I meant for the refrigerator wall elevation (and four hours trying to get the *%^+ picture onto my computer, and of course the sh#tti3st version is the one that would upload.)

This builds it all in by dropping a header over the recessed area and running the ceiling moulding across it. Of course the fridge and the base cabinets are flush with the front and the upper cabinets sit back in the niche 12 inches or so.

The height could be the height of the fridge, the height of the adjacent doorways with or without trim. I drew it the height of a doorway without trim just as variation.

threeapples


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RE: Please help me achieve this (new) look...

palimpsest, i'm laughing at your trials and tribulations to post this drawing! sorry it took so long to get up here on GW, but I am so grateful you're trying hard to help.

my husband is completely against this idea, however, so now i'm wondering if we'll be ok if we leave the fridge area as-is and do something slightly different above the fridge itself? will this fridge area make achieving this new look impossible or ruin the other walls if they look somewhat authentic?


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also, my husband suggests these chimney style drywall hoods are not the proper depth for the range hood mechanism. now i'm really worried. if we made this proper depth would it look awful? the plain english ones don't appear 24" deep.


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RE: Please help me achieve this (new) look...

what about this for the uppers on the sink wall? it looks more historic, right?

i still worry about the"chimney" hood surround not being deep enough to be practical and that the fridge built in area is going to look modern.

Here is a link that might be useful: sink wall uppers?


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RE: Please help me achieve this (new) look...

The depth of the chimney part of the hood depends on the manufacturer's specs--it is just ductwork. The wood shelf aspect could be designed at the needed depth and the upper part could be slightly shallower. The dark blue Spitalfields does not look quite 24" deep but it looks more than 18" to me at the top.

The fridge elevation has a fridge and a built in microwave, so there is no getting around some of its modern-ness. I felt like suppressing it into a niche at least avoided the ceiling molding zig-zagging across the various depths of cabinets which definitely wouldn't have happened in the 18th c.

I think part of the reason behind the objections your husband is throwing up is that he wants a flashier kitchen, than he is going to get if you go the Plain English route. Most people would put the flashiest kitchen they could afford in a house like this, and that's okay, too, it's their prerogative. But that's part of the series of compromises you are going to have to make to each other. :)


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RE: Please help me achieve this (new) look...

We need the chimney to be deep enough to be effective. Will that make it look less like a chimney?
Any thoughts on the potential uppers for the sink wall?


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Pictures

More pictures!

None of these are quite right...too many prep sinks for one thing...but I think elements in each one might work in your kitchen :)

From Cottage house plans

From Cottage house plans

Notice this has the curved island? Is that still an option...thought your DH might like this one.

From Cottage house plans

I like this one (it's the blue and the windows) but if you make the island wood with white marble top...

From Cottage house plans

And something for your DH...maybe this will work in his pub room? :)

From Cottage house plans


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RE: Please help me achieve this (new) look...

Lavender, I love 2,4, and 5. I still love the dark wood with the marble.
My husband loves the bar pic, thx!
So here's a thought--how about eliminating fridge wall counter and doing a large section of cabinets with doors that could function as an appliance garage or something since we have outlets there. Would that take us further from our plan?


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Yes, you could do this, essentially creating a counter hidden behind doors. You would want to have a spot that functions as an immediate set-down spot for the fridge and especially microwave, though.


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RE: Please help me achieve this (new) look...

The microwave was moved to the island across from the range.
Should I do the cabinets next to the fridge the same height as the fridge and leave the top open? That might make the fridge not look built in though, which I hate.
Or, I could make the whole thing like a unit, right?


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fwiw, I have a side-by-side and never sit anything down next it. Always behind, on the island. iow, having counter space next to the fridge isn't a big deal (I do have it to the left - pine hutch - but don't take things out/set on it).

Just a thought.

threeapples, you're situation is like mine. DH and the builder kept telling me I wasn't going to have a kitchen when we moved in if I didn't hurry up and decide/order. I had looked at almost every kitchen showroom in town and call/visited several custom builders. Either they couldn't build it or it was out of my price range. Finally, I went to the store (now closed) that had bespoke pieces made in England shipped over. People would come in and ask why didn't they do kitchens, so they started ordering kitchens from their cabinetmaker upon request. I thought it was going to be so out of my price range (was over the GC allowance for kitchen, laundry and baths - the kitchen cost the entire allowance), but I am so glad I held out because I got the kitchen I had planned and wanted. It's perfect for our home.

So just because DH is ribbing you, please don't give in - remind him, he has his pub. You want your kitchen!! All designers simply cannot do your type of kitchen (mine either), so you've either got to find someone that can help you (here is a good start!) or do it yourself.

If you get the design (for the most part) planned out, is your cabinetmaker savvy enough to build them without "designer plans?"


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RE: Please help me achieve this (new) look...

Allison, thanks for telling me about your situation, it gives me hope that I can get the kitchen I want with persistence and careful planning
I have. I have no idea of this new designer is right for the bespoke Englosh look and I'm not sure how to figure that out. My husband is increasingly frustrated with me taking so much time with the kitchen and now going into a very different direction. I refuse to hurry up just to appease everyone.
I now have to figure out a plan for the fridge wall and see if the cabinet guy can do new drawings since my husband doesn't want to spend thousands just for drawings. I'm not sure how savvy the cabinet guy is. His product is very nicely done and he's a really nice guy, but he's not in the business of offering advice on high design. After my kids are in bed I intend to do some drawings and I'll post back.


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RE: Please help me achieve this (new) look...

3apples- I'm glad you like the pictures! I had a feeling your DH might like that pub pic...it's such a 'guy room'! :)

I like the microwave at the island. What appliances will you have by the fridge? What appliances will be in the pretty garage, by the range?

One question...do you have enough room to open your fridge all the way for cleaning, or do you need a little space between the fridge and wall?


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So, the designer is out for this application--didn't want to just do what I need help with in the kitchen because it's against their code of design. That leaves me with the cabinet guy who I will forward my inspiration images to on Monday and take it from there.
Not sure about the fridge having enough room, but I will try to figure that out.
I made some drawings, which I'll post in a few hours and intend to try to find a design that will work to incorporate the fridge and an appliance garage type thing next to it in the recessed area that is designated in this part of the kitchen. I'll need to drop drywall down, I think, and I worry that won't look good.
The appliances that will go by the fridge will be a coffee maker and I am thinking to do drawers on the bottom of the one by the range instead of a garage.
How do you know how tall to make the cabinets if they don't go to the ceiling? Should I have them go to the top of the window, which is 2 ft from the ceiling? Is that the height that the range wall one should go to as well?


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3apples- If you need a spacer, between the fridge and wall, to get the doors all the way open...it's usually only a few inches wide.

I like the fourth picture, with the blue walls and the white paneled fridge (right above pub picture) so I would use that as an example and have the upper cabinets about even with the top or a regular window. But, I like the taller chimney/hood. The different heights make it more interesting...but the shorter cabinets leave room for the blue wall.

Some people want cabinets all the way to the top (they think the other way is too much of a dust catcher) but I think it looks more airy, with the wall showing above. Cabinets all the way to the ceiling seem very formal to me...so I guess it's what you like best, in your space.

If you're going to use the island as your fridge landing area...and you plan to have the coffee pot by the fridge...have you ever thought of adding a prep sink? I know you don't want one on the island, but a little bar sink might be handy by the fridge. For coffee, tea, drinks, water that doesn't come out of the fridge (they always taste like plastic to me...but that could be because I'm used to well water). No offense to anyone, who likes the fridge water :)


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The fridge is a Subzero and although the door needs a doorswing, there is only a wall on the freezer door side, and it is flush with the front of the fridge. You would be able to look at the design specs on the Sub-Zero website and see what you need, but usually these are made to be installed in flush situations. Mine has about 1/8" on the hinge side between it and the next panel. However, mine is fully-integrated and yours is built-in I think. The drawing in the online manuals are very good.


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undercabinet lighting is ok for my sink wall uppers? won't that take away from the look?

also, my electrician house outlets all over my range wall. that's going to look pretty bad, right?--especially if there's no backsplash on the range wall. uggh. not sure what to do.


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I think you need (hidden) undercounter lighting there for practicality. Anything you do there will be in shadow if you only rely on the overhead lighting.

I think outlets can be more difficult if there is a patterned tile backsplash because they can interfere with the pattern. You need the outlets, so as long as they are reasonably spaced it's usually ok.

If you are concerned about them being too obvious and don't have a strong color preference for the kitchen yet, you could look at Lutron Satin Colors outlets and switches and choose a wall color that blended well with one of those.


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should i do a wall like kateskouros did, something that is all cabinets next to the fridge-freezer and can have a concealed appliance garage with a counter in it?


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Sure can :)


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RE: Please help me achieve this (new) look...

3apples- I really like this kitchen and maybe it will be a nice compromise for you and your husband :)

Notice the backsplash (marble tile?) behind the range...and the very pretty hood and surround. Also, the marble countertops...with white perimeter and wood island. I know you don't want the prep sink, but I think the cabinetry might be a nice option.

What do you think? Would this be something you both would like, in the kitchen? You could use the narrow marble backsplash, continue the marble tile...or use something else. I think the paneled fridge and hidden appliance garages would look great as a built-in/alcove type of feature.

From Farmhouse plans


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Theeapples,
One of the important facet of the room that make the design is the shape, ratio, scale and proportions of the room with the window. Obviously the room has tall ceiling. The house/building evokes an old 16th or 17th century European building with the scale of the window. Notice how tall and narrow the window is relative to what you see in a typical American house. The window goes all the way to the ceiling. When you couple that with the French range and 17th century appearing ornamentation, you get an old elegant European feel to the room.

Notice there is almost no ornamentation in the cabinets. You get most of the ornatmentation from the light fixture, mirror, and the furniture and most of all the gorgeous French range. The hood is simplefied to evoke a fireplace type of cooking with simple mantle above it, IMHO.

I think all the cabinet pictures that people have picked for you have too much 'ornamentation' in the cabinets. They scream "American" to me. I think what you want your kitchen to say is "old Europe".... Just asking...


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RE: Please help me achieve this (new) look...

I think the look I'm going for is English or English with a colonial hint to it. So, American is fine for me. I love the old world look, too, however, but think old English is more of what I want as opposed to Italian or other styles that come to my mind when I think old world.

You're right, the window in that photo is larger than ours, which ends at 8 ft tall.

I'm super nervous we can't pull ths off to look historic and it will end up just looking cheap and unfinished.


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RE: Please help me achieve this (new) look...

Do You really think it will look cheap and unfinished, or does ...somebody keep telling you it will look cheap and unfinished.

Look at the pictures from the various English websites you have been using for reference.

Identify, What, if anything, you feel looks cheap or unfinished about any of those kitchens. There may be something that looks unfinished to you, or something that you don't quite like.

After you have identified it, think of how you would change it more to your liking, while maintaining the essence of the look.

Understated, I can see, underdone, perhaps, unfinished, er, maybe. But cheap...I don't see that. Sometimes, it's very expensive to look cheap. Cheap and ostentatious are closer siblings than cheap and unfinished, imo.


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RE: Please help me achieve this (new) look...

I'm just going to take a guess...and say that the concerns about 'cheap and unfinished' could be that the cabinetry looks very plain, compared to what you usually see. Maybe understated is a better word.

I think the materials become VERY important in a situation like this. Much like a 'little black dress' that is very simple (elegant?) and everything depends on the cut and the fabric. With the right fabric, it's beautiful...wrong fabric or cut, and it can look cheap.

3apples- That being said, this kitchen style will probably need a very careful eye for detail. If you aren't sure exactly what you want, I would try to copy the cabinetry from one of your inspiration pictures. If you try to mix and match...it could be beautiful...or it could fall flat. If you don't feel confident pulling together this look on your own (or even with GW help) I'd think about another KD...or maybe another style of kitchen. Just my two cents.

Again, this is nothing against the style. I just think it would be much easier with some experienced assistance in kitchen planning and design. If you feel confident that between GW and your cabinet maker...you'll have all the help you need, then this could be a beautiful kitchen :)


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Another picture

3apples- Here's another kitchen that has some of your elements. Do you see anything you like yet, for cabinetry? Or are you going with something more understated?

From Cottage house plans


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RE: Please help me achieve this (new) look...

Have you seen this Georgian home in the link?

Might give you some ideas.

Here's the kitchen.

Photobucket Pictures, Images and Photos

Here is a link that might be useful: Georgian


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RE: Please help me achieve this (new) look...

Good advice, lavender. I'm learning that some Georgian cabinetry did have raised panels. I think I'll be ok with that. In general I think I'm worried because I've only ever seen this kind of thing in a historic house and my house is going to look so green (though I'm trying hard to avoid that).
Lavender, you say this will need a good eye for ttention to detail, but what are you referring to? Do you mean hardware, lighting, or bigger things like the fridge wall or molding?


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RE: Please help me achieve this (new) look...

I was actually thinking about your first picture. It's very 'simple' in a way...since there are no upper cabinets, but it's also very elegant. The tile walls, the floor, the lovely range and hood, the shelf and (mural?) over the sink...and the furniture. The table and chairs are beautiful, but not a set. Fancier french style chairs with a more rustic (English?) table. And the lighting and other accessories, all make this one beautiful space.

The entire room seems very simple at first glance...but there's an incredible attention to every single detail, in this room. The two tones of wood...(armoire/cabinet?) and table, the creamy whites of the chairs, cabinets, the range...the brass lighting that picks up the brass of the range, door knob, and frame around the mural, the copper accent with the pots...etc. etc. etc.

The entire room is amazing, but it would take a lot of work, shopping, knowledge, etc (IMHO) to pull this room together. It's lovely, but without all the careful planning and attention to detail...you would have a very similar room, but not nearly as impressive. Just my two cents :)


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RE: Please help me achieve this (new) look...

I really agree with Kaismom, lavender and palimpsest's recent comments.

I'd guess that the most common mistake in trying to create a grand look is overdoing it. Maybe I don't have a good read on what look you're after, but it seems to me that the pictures you've posted are beautiful and distinctive BECAUSE of their simplicity.

I do think you'd be better off working with a good designer. As helpful and talented as GW posters can be, you're still left cobbling ideas together. I'm afraid it might not come together the way you envision. As someone above suggested, poor understanding of scale, proportion, color combination, etc, will make good individual elements turn into a bad room.


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How much space should there be between the cook top and bottom of the vent hood and its chimney surround.

I agree with you all about scale and proportion for this room. I've passed the details along to my cabinet guy and will post jus drawings here and get the designer's take on it as well. This should be ok, right? Then I'll work with a designer for colors, hardware, lighting, and furnishings. Does this sound ok? I wish the designer would agree to do a color drawing, but I'll attempt that on my own.

You guys are the best.


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The height of the vent hood/bottom edge of the chimney surround is based on the specs of your actually vent, or hood liner insert. For one of this size I think it tends to be around 27" -30" above the cooktop surface.

The good thing about having a mantel hood topped by a chimney covered in drywall is that the drywall and the framing is adjustable. If this were all cabinetry and custom panels you would have to know to the inch exactly where you wanted it. You have a bit of leeway.


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RE: Please help me achieve this (new) look...

3apples- Why are you using this designer? Is he/she doing something in the other rooms of the house? Have you thought about getting a kitchen designer, specifically? Or is this one supposed to be a KD?

So, my advice would be to get a real designer, who can help you with all these decisions. Someone who can see your space and help you make your dream kitchen a reality.

If this isn't possible (for whatever reason) then I don't understand why you would still use this designer to help you with colors, hardware, lighting and furnishings. If he/she can't be involved in the planning...why would he/she be helpful with the details? Your current designer is not going to have the same vision of the room and know what exactly you're trying to create. You could end up with a mess.

So, I'd recommend a new designer. Barring that...take pictures of every wall in your kitchen space and post them here on GW. Let Pal and some of the other experts help you create your kitchen and probably help you with your other choices, too. Design by committee can end up as a mess, too...so if you and Pal...maybe Eggdart have a similar vision, then I'd try to create the entire 'look' before going to the cabinetry guy or the designer, again.

Basically, you'd be asking them to be your default designer...which could be a challenge, but if they're willing to help you...you'll probably end up with a better designed/more beautiful kitchen!


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RE: Please help me achieve this (new) look...

Lavender, I've had a really tough time finding a good designer around here. This designer has won an award for kitchen design, but also does whole houses, which I'll need for help with paint colors, lighting, etc. I am not sure whether I should look now for a 4th designer or wait for the cabinet guy to do the drawings, get the designer's opinion (and GW community) and go from there with details.


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I think much of the proportion is already a given.

The ceiling height and room dimensions are set.
The window size and placement are likely dictated by the facade.
The counter height is standard, the range hood size and height are dictated to a great extent by the size of the range and the hood specifications.
The cornice is dictated by that used in the adjacent room.
The recessed area of cabinets is dictated mostly by the refrigerator.
There are really only two proportions that need to be worked out: the appropriate size of the to-the-counter cabinet to the right of the range, and the cabinets to the right of the window.

These also have parameters: the window over the sink will set their relative positions on one end and the end of the counter run is a reasonable termination of the cabinetry on that end.

I would line up the top of the cabinet trim with the top of the window trim.

The room is really telling you what to do. Whether you chose recessed panel cabinets, raised panel cabinets, full inset or partial overlay, or a combination of these is all a matter of taste, and any of these would be appropriate.


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RE: Please help me achieve this (new) look...

We met with the cabinet guy today and, thankfully, he's happy to draw up a new set of plans for us! :) I'm not sure whether it helped that I baked him a loaf of zucchini bread....

So, he made a quick sketch of the area adjacent to the fridge and suggests we recess it a little bit so the counter has something to rest against. My husband is suggesting we recess the uppers to 15" deep so we have counter to work on (mixer or coffee maker or vitamix). I'm thinking we should do bifold doors that recess into the sides of the unit for the top half and have the counter be the marble. We were also thinking of doing the right upper area of the unit (when open) to be nooks for bills, mail, keys, etc., have the rest of that half of uppers be adjustable shelves.

On another note, I'm including an image of the potential crown for the uppers in the kitchen. It's the second sample down. If we do dentil on the wall and this on the cabinets (I think this one is 3.5") will this be too fussy?

Fridge wall, Uploaded with Snapbucket

Cabinet molding, Uploaded with Snapbucket


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The most appropriate SHAPE is the last one. It has a supporting bedmold under the top corona. It might be a bit small though?

The second one down is INcorrect in that it has a terminating moulding under the corona, which is also terminating, so it's a double terminating molding.

If you could do the second one down WITHOUT that top corona piece it, would be fine, especially if the scale is better. But as it is, its a bit overwrought especially since there will be cornice on the ceiling.


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RE: Please help me achieve this (new) look...

any thoughts on the cabinet guy's drawing for the cabinetry next to the fridge?


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RE: Please help me achieve this (new) look...

I like it especially if the above the counter cabs are shallower and you do doors that can be slid back as you said.


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RE: Please help me achieve this (new) look...

Also, don't forget to do undercabinet lighting inside the recessed doors of that unit to light that counter area.


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RE: Please help me achieve this (new) look...

I like it too, it's a nice arrangement of doors. Just for the heck of it, I sketched it out with the shorter doors on the very top, and it didn't look as good as his drawing.

I don't know if two different moldings would be too much -- my guess is that it would. You're not going to go with the egg and dart motif? ;)


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RE: Please help me achieve this (new) look...

egganddart, we're having "your" motif on the door knobs inside the house and on the crown in the foyer. i love the meaning of it and had to use it, so don't worry, it will be prevalent.

so you both think the top portion of this area should be recessed compared to the bottom, which will show part of the marble counter. how deep should it be?

the under cabinet lights would only be helpful when the doors (second from top down) are open, right?


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RE: Please help me achieve this (new) look...

Yes, the under cabinet lighting would only be helpful when the doors were opened.

15" deep on the upper is probably good.

You could put a small aperture recessed light above these cabinets if necessary. Sometimes function has to trump esthetic concerns.


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will this be too much hutch on this wall? further down, in the eat-in area, they are building me a freestanding hutch that i'm still trying to decide on finish (paint vs. stain).


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RE: Please help me achieve this (new) look...

Depth of upper cabs: what's going in the cabinets? That can give you a guideline. My uppers rest on a marble counter; they're 14 1/2" deep, and about 11 1/2" of counter sits in front of them. Here's a picture.

I haven't read all the posts, so you might have talked about this. Is the drawing the cabinetmaker just made the replacement for Elevation A? If so, I like that the microwave isn't showing anymore, if that's what that was. In the original elevation you had three doors on the upper cabs. in the new sketch there are four, in a space about 60" wide -- is that right? The cabinet doors are going to be narrow, just so you're aware of that. Not necessarily too narrow, but make sure it looks okay in relation to the other doors.

I don't know what to say about the hutch. It's probably separated enough that it won't matter, especially if the two pieces look different enough.


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Slow down a bit and think about what that would actually be like to USE. Where would those doors be when open? What small appliances could you actually use considering there's no water nearby? Is the counter actually usable at all or will opening any of the lower doors preclude resting anything on the counter? Will the ref door run into open cabinet doors?

It the path in front very minor? Because anyone using the area will block the area in front of the doorway.

Where is the micro now?


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The microwave has been moved to the island.

The doorway is the second means to the mudroom area, so there is some traffic. But the door opening is 36" and the aisle is 48"-60" in this location and residential hallways can be minimum 36" for the passage of two people so it won't be completely impassable if someone is standing there.

I would put water on the island too, but if the coffee maker is here it could be filled from the fridge dispenser if there is one. This location would be point of service for someone seated at the island but not in the breakfast area, and it is far from the sink.

But sometimes point-of-use can be overstated. Some people eat every day in their formal dining rooms, or outside almost all summer without water or a fridge very close,so it depends upon how you live.

The counter adjacent to the fridge and the cabinet doors when open, should not project beyond the face of the fridge panels. So, make sure you work this out in the design with the cabinet maker.


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RE: Please help me achieve this (new) look...

I thought the coffee maker was going to be stored, in the range appliance garage? Are those drawers, now? It would be easier to make coffee (IMHO) if you're closer to the sink...and the cabinets with the coffee cups/mugs.

By the fridge, I like the idea of the recessed area on the countertop. This would be great for the toaster and might be a good location for the microwave, too. Just make sure you have enough clearance to use the toaster...without it being too close to the upper cabinets. We always have to pull ours out, away from the uppers, to use it.


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RE: Please help me achieve this (new) look...

fwiw, many small sinks are not coffeemaker friendly. DH never uses the one in the coffee station to make coffee - carafe doesn't fit under easily or come out w/o spilling water. I never use to fill pitcher since it's a bother to move spout, etc.


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RE: Please help me achieve this (new) look...

Same thing about refrigerator water taps - not pots, not pitchers, not large measuring stuff, not bowls with spouts.

I know point-of-use can be over rated, but coffee pots pretty much always move to the water source. That can be really annoying as can toaster burners on the bottom of the cabinet above or having to lug a heavy mixer over to the island when you EXPECTED to be able to use it in place.

I don't care what the poster picks, I care that she knows what those choices mean. I would just hate it if the op somehow expected to be able to leave the doors open but just didn't picture the two center doors sticking out in the middle of the counter, banging into each other or the end doors banging into the ref or the wall.


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RE: Please help me achieve this (new) look...

Sure, the cabinet distance would have to be appropriate to the undercounter appliances kept there. I think though, if your toaster can scorch the bottom of your cabinets when they are the standard height of 18" + above the counter, you've got other problems to worry about :) For what it's worth I covered the entire underside of my cabinets with stainless to better reflect and diffuse the lighting and to make them a bit more heat resistant.

This "hutch" is not in a run of cabinets so it can be whatever height the poster needs and it would not throw other areas off. The doors may have to be folding AND pocket in order to retract fully enough. A tambour that opened side to side would be historically accurate, but it would need a bottom track which would catch crumbs and that would be a pain to keep clean. The side styles could be wide enough that each door was under 24" and at least then it would retract past the depth of the fridge, and that would solve that issue.

I actually find the water things in most refrigerators really inconvenient. In that regard I think the coffeemaker could end up under one of the cabinets on either side of the sink. This kitchen is large enough and the two seating areas distinct enough in location that there really won't be a single point-of-use for a number of things, but the distances from point A to point B in this house are substantial anyway, so that's ok.


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RE: Please help me achieve this (new) look...

I'm thinking folding + pocket doors for the doors above the counter on the fridge area hutch makes most sense.

our water dispenser is located on the inside of the fridge door so it's not visible from the exterior. i agree, this will likely not be the way to fill the coffee carafe.

i'll have to go back and look at the sink wall uppers--i guess i didn't notice we gained another one. are you all suggesting three, four, or five is best?


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RE: Please help me achieve this (new) look...

How's it going?


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