Lisa -- good question about the measurements. I only have what the architect's noted. I'm traveling for the month, too, so I can't just go into the kitchen to measure.

My estimates of interior space based off the drawing is:
- about 15 feet 4.75 inches for the long kitchen wall along the garage
- about 13 feet along the top wall (where the architect has the door to the deck)
- about 13 feet for the kitchen wall with the range.

OK. The architect's drawing is officially no longer a contender. And good point about the angled peninsula. I'll have to envision myself in the kitchen with the angled vs. nonangled peninsula. And if it's not too hectic at work this morning, I'll try to redraw a non-angled peninsula to post.

Thanks, florantha.

Do you have photos of your kitchen? It'd help me visualize.

The idea of the putting the range where the clean-up sink has me pondering. I hadn't thought of that. And that wall will be all windows and will be a focal point of the kitchen, so maybe it is better to have a range there rather than the clean up sink?

I'm torn about the angled island. If I don't angle it, I feel like there's the long wall that will stick out past the peninsula and the sort of effective end of the kitchen. Also, I was thinking the fridge would go along that wall, and by angling out the island, I was hoping to allow more clearance for the fridge doors -- basically so that someone peeking in the fridge wouldn't block access to the kitchen since the peninsula would be behind them. Although, it'd be at least 4 feet of space (even without the angled pensinsula), so that's plenty of room, right?

Here's a quick idea:

{{gwi:2107977}}

The island would be about 7' long and 46" wide with 42" aisles. You can leave the slider where it is, traffic through working kitchen is gone. More counter space where you need it. You don't get your corner pantry but you get about 5' of pantry cupboards. The cabinet to the left of it can be a beverage center - wine glasses, coffee pot, whatever you choose - handy to guests without stepping into the kitchen proper.

Lisa -- thanks so much! I like it.

I also would like a prep sink. Right now, we have one sink, and it seems that we're constantly elbowing in to use the sink.

Do you think we could fit in another sink? If so, where?

In lisa_a's drawing, an additional prep sink would go in that corner elbow between the fridge and range, perhaps closer to the fridge.

I didn't add a prep sink first time around because I didn't know if you wanted one or if wanted to incur the extra cost but yes, one can be added. Here's one possibility.

{{gwi:2107978}}
I put the prep sink in a corner cabinet.

btw, when I did this version, I zoomed in and discovered that there is a dimension for top to bottom. It's 13' 9-1/4" (165.25"). Based on that and the 15' 4-3/4" (184.75") along the garage wall, I think this is how things should roughly line up. You'll have better dimensions once it's drawn to scale (my drawings are definitely representational, not to scale) and you add in spacers as needed (these are so you can open doors and drawers in corners).

Range wall:
46" cab, 48" range, 34" cab, 36" corner cab.

Garage wall:
28" beverage center, 48" pantry cab, 48" fridge, 24" cab, and 36" corner cab.

Island:
7'2" long (2" est. needed for cabinetry surround for DW), 4' deep
DW, 36" sink cab, 24" cab
Row of full depth cabinets on the backside facing the slider.

Aisle between range and island and fridge wall and island is 45" counter to counter (allowed extra so hopefully you'll have 42" between range and island counter and fridge handles and island counter). Aisle between island and slider wall is also 45".

I shrunk the pantry cab from 5' to 4' to allow a sufficiently sized beverage center to its left and to give you 24" between fridge and corner cab where the prep sink is. If you want the larger pantry cab, you could move the fridge towards the range wall a foot, delete the corner cab, put the prep sink in a cabinet on the range wall side and shift the range down the wall a bit. Like this:

{{gwi:2107979}}

Island would stay the same as would aisle widths.
Range wall:
34" cab, 48" range, 35" cab, 24" sink cab

Fridge wall:
28" beverage center, 60" pantry cab, 48" fridge, 24" cab.

A 5' pantry cab could be fairly oppressive, especially next to a 4' fridge. Will they provide a rendering so you can see what it will look like?

Don't forget to walk through making a meal in your head to see if it works for how you cook. Also, figure out where you'd store items. For instance, the most convenient place to store glasses, dishes and silverware would be across from the DW or on the other side of the clean-up sink. What you need to do is make sure that my ideas give you the storage and counter space you need where you need them and make changes as needed.

This is great! I really like the island!

I think I want to move the sliding glass doors to the left and then take out that sink that's on the deck (the architect got a little creative with that, but I think it's unnecessary).

I like the option with the corner prep sink and like the beverage center idea.

Is the pantry you were thinking about like an English larder? I'm not familiar with any other non-walk-in pantries.

And any reason why the DW to the left of the sink? I'm thinking of putting it to the right and then storing dishes and silverware in drawers in the island on the other side of the sink (closer to the dining areas) and then glasses maybe above the beverage center? Although that would take a couple of steps to get there... Can glasses also be stored in drawers?

Also, we hand wash and dry a number of things (pans, wine glasses), but I'm wondering how a dish drying rack would look in the middle of the island. Does anyone have a good solution for that?

And I'm kinda missing the corner pantry... That photo was just so pretty...

Can the kitchen itself (not the Dining Room) be bumped "north" 2 feet?

["North" is toward the top of the layout in your first post]

BTW...you're probably not receiving emails of follow-up postings, even though you checked the box requesting them. This is b/c you don't have the email option turned on in your profile. See the "Read Me" thread for more information. Scroll down to the post with the subject "Getting Emails Sent To You...3-step Process".

Here is a link that might be useful: Read Me If You're New To GW Kitchens!

What about moving the pantry and fridge right down to the end of that row and then putting the clean up sink and DW between the range and fridge. (DW around the corner if necessary) and the prep sink on the island.
It puts the prep area looking out into the back and the cook more into the center of things.
With the prep sink in the corner it puts the cook looking into the corner of a wall and with her/his back to the rest of the room.

Lisa a: anyway you can tell if that would fit/work?
Greenhighlighter: what do you think?

Hi buehl -- we used to have the kitchen bumped 2 feet "north", but our neighbors complained about the impact to their view and light, so we're cutting back two feet. And thanks for the tip on getting emails -- I did read the "Read Me" post but clearly had a bit of information overload (or maybe was just so proud that I got pictures in my post that I forgot about the rest!)

blfenton -- thanks! I like that idea. But does that mean my beverage center is gone? Or could I move it to the island or something? Or is that an awfully expensive change? And then I was thinking that we could even use the clean-up sink as our main prep sink and then the prep sink would be more the overflow sink --does that make sense? This is often what happens at a family member's house. The big clean up sink is on the island that faces out and we use the island and that sink to prep usually. But if there are a lot of folks cooking, the smaller prep sink that's off to the side will get used.

OK...I'm not sure why those 2 feet would affect your neighbors if the Dining Room doesn't...unless they're so close to your house that their view cuts across your back deck. (Won't your BBQ block their view then?)

Do you "need" (or really want) seating for several people at an island or peninsula? Is one seat enough?

I'm asking these questions b/c I'm trying to come up with a layout that allows you to have the corner pantry and the window pass-through to the deck.

What's more important to you...the corner pantry & window pass-through or multiple seats at an island or peninsula?

Sure you can move the DW to the other side of the sink. You just need to be aware that when open it might block fridge access. It all depends on how you cook and clean up and whether you're accessing DW and fridge simultaneously.

Here's blfenton's idea:
{{gwi:2107980}}

Garage wall:
58" pantry cab, 48" fridge, 24" DW, 12" cabinet, 42" corner cabinet. You need a cabinet between DW and corner sink so that you can stand at the sink when the DW door is open. The pantry cab will likely be narrower because you'll need spacers at the corner cab but not by much. This plan does put the clean-up area in the middle of the prep area but that may not be an issue for you.

Range wall:
34" cab, 48" range, 40" cab, 42" corner cabinet.

This does give you a huge island to work with and avoids the dilemma of having dirty dishes on the island. On the other hand, almost 9' of cabinetry and fridge could create a darkish corner for the clean-up sink. But you can address that in other ways.

When I say beverage center, I'm not meaning a beverage fridge necessarily, just a place for coffee, wine glasses, etc. Moving that to the island doesn't work as well, unfortunately.

I have another idea but I need to draw it out first.

Oh, you asked about the pantry cabinet. They come with pull-outs, organizers and such so they can be very functional and you won't need to worry about losing items at the back of a stationary 24" deep shelf. If you google images for this, you'll see various options.

I just realized I didn't figure out MW placement in these plans. Are you doing a built-in, on the counter or MW drawer?

You guys are fantastic!

About the neighbors -- they are quite close -- about 10-15 feet away. Honestly, I really don't think there's an impact, but we're just trying to be accommodating and not create hostility. We live in an area where people pretty much oppose any construction.

After looking at some pantry cabinets, I'm OK with them, too. I really like this, however:

But I'm sure that something like that's crazy expensive...

We don't really need seating at the island/peninsula. The dining room table is close enough really. But I do like island/peninsula as a barrier/place for guests to gather while I cook. We can chat, they can snack on whatever I have out, have a place to set down drinks.

And while I like the pass-through window, the point about having to go around the peninsula to get to the dining room and outside does seem like a pain. So, now I'm leaning more towards this island...

Here's another idea that keeps your corner pantry:

{{gwi:2107982}}

It does make for a tight-ish clean-up area, though. At most you'll end up with a 16" cab to left of 36" sink cab. However, if you're willing to shrink the great room entry by 6" to 12", you should be able to get a 24" cab instead of a 16" there.

As for the range wall, I eyeballed and estimated the pantry on that wall is about 4'. That means you should have roughly 32"-34" of cabinetry on each side of the range.

You get your corner pantry back, clean-up sink and dish/silverware storage near the dining table, and a large expanse of counter with prep sink near the range. MW could go in an upper cabinet to the left of the range. Or you could go with a MW drawer in the island.

Were you wanting peninsula/island seating? I didn't see that in your or your architect's plan but saw buehl mention it.

Oops, you were posting when I was. Good to know I didn't have to figure in island seating. I'm with you. When dining table is so close by, it isn't always necessary. You could add it if you wish but you'd have to give up a little island width (about 3") to increase your aisles to 48" so people can pass by. It would also reduce storage on that side, too since you'd want 15" overhang for seating. But doable if you change your mind.

And yes, that's exactly what I was thinking when I suggested a pantry cabinet. Cute pantry!

I meant to post the latest plan showing windows where the slider is since you mentioned moving the slider to the DR area. I've deleted the latest drawing I posted above but the only things that have changed are the windows on the top wall.

{{gwi:2107983}}

Thanks again, Lisa!

I've gone back and forth, but I think my favorite is the one with the corner prep sink. But I wonder if I should be concerned about the pantry doors and fridge doors fighting each other?

Another question. With moving the sliding glass doors over to the left, is there anything creative I can do with that corner? The "north east" corner at the outside end of the range wall?

OK. I tried my hand at manipulating lisa's drawing that I'm leaning towards. I moved the sliding glass doors, deleted the deck sink, and swapped the DW to the other side.

So, my questions from my previous post:
- Should I be concerned about the pantry doors and fridge doors fighting each other?
- Any thoughts about the space in the "north east" corner at the outside end of the range wall?

About the MW, I'd like to put it by the fridge, since most things we nuke are from the fridge. I don't think I like the idea of a microwave drawer, so I'm thinking between the fridge and prep sink. Thoughts?

I have missed the discussion today on the progress of this thread. Nevertheless, here's my modest-cost, big function kitchen in G-shaped mode as requested.

When I read your post I thought about turning the kitchen orientation. Glad others are helping with that idea. Take your time on this stuff; no need to leap forward without good thought.

Link below gets you to the blueprint of G-shaped kitchen and our thinking as of last year. This plunks you a ways into the project. Progress photos and 3/4 of the photos are at left-side arrow direction in progress of Flickr account; right-arrow gets you farther into past, although I've got so many photos now that Flickr has hidden the earliest ones. I suggest you go to very end, then work backwards, then go forwards again. Logic may elude you for a while.

We added 12 foot bumpout to front of house; old kitchen is 'kitchen hall' and dinette area on outside of peninsula but within original house. There is still a wall between kitchen hall and dining room although we have moved the connecting doorway to a better place. (Constitutionally, I need to have a physical separation, not an informal one, in part because of hearing issues.) Yeah an oddball original house; we're dancing as fast as we can, as they say. Those who know us and know the house are very complimentary--they say this is the kitchen the house should have had from the get-go. (Your mileage may vary.)

Have fun stormin' the castle!

[no need to respond--I realize the conversation has already progressed beyond our original interchange, but perhaps you or someone else can benefit from ideas here]

Here is a link that might be useful: Blueprint view of G kitchen.

Thanks, florantha. I went back and forth, but decided on the island. Your ideas were helpful, though. And I read so many of these posts before posting mine, so I'm sure there are others like me out there who are taking notes!

You asked: Should I be concerned about the pantry doors and fridge doors fighting each other?

I don't think I quite follow your concern. Are you worried about door collisions if someone is accessing the pantry while someone else opens the fridge? That will happen whether it's pantry next to fridge or cabinet next to fridge. You can check door swings of both and add a filler cabinet between the two to give you some wiggle room if it's a concern. Or you could go with drawers on the bottom section of the pantry and pull-outs - cabinet front attached to pull-out so no door swing - for the upper part. There are options. You'll need to talk to your cabinet maker about this.

Maybe someone else can address this better than I can.

You asked: Any thoughts about the space in the "north east" corner at the outside end of the range wall?

You mean against the back wall? Other than hanging artwork or something shallow, there's not much you can do, not without impacting your aisle width. I don't think that would gain you much and, IMO, would likely detract from the plan.

You asked: About the MW, I'd like to put it by the fridge, since most things we nuke are from the fridge. I don't think I like the idea of a microwave drawer, so I'm thinking between the fridge and prep sink. Thoughts?

You're right, most of us nuke items that come out of the fridge so putting a MW near a fridge makes good sense. Are you planning on getting a GE spacemaker (the only one that is shallow enough to fit in an upper cabinet)? That shouldn't crowd your prep sink area. Don't forget to take into account the door swing. Most swing from the left so it will swing open towards the prep sink.

One last thing. I suggested a 7' island (well, a smidge over actually) so that the kitchen cabinetry stair-steps from the back wall to the garage wall, falling short of the beverage center. Does that make sense? Like drawing a diagonal line from the corner to the left of the slider to the end of the beverage center. It's a nice visual. But if you have the room to extend it, you could enlarge the island to 8'. Just make sure the extra length doesn't interfere with furniture placement and walkways in the great room and DR areas.

I'm glad I was able to help. I'll be remodeling my kitchen someday soon because I have a big expanse of counter in the wrong place and not enough where I need it so I'm happy to help you avoid a similar headache. The goal is to do this once and do it correctly.

Keep us posted! I'm living vicariously through others' remodels until I can finally do mine. ;-)

Lisa -- thanks for following up with my questions.

About the pantry, you're right that really it's like any other cabinet. I was just thinking that pantry doors look bigger and seem to swing all the way open (further than a normal cabinet). At least the one I'm picturing (e.g. the beautiful one I posted above). I like the idea of drawers below and maybe pull outs above or something. Or just being conscientious about having the doors open.

About the far corner. I guess you're right. Sometimes I try to squeeze something in everywhere :)

About the MW, I didn't know the GE spacemaker was the only one that fits in upper cabinets! We honestly aren't picky about the MW, so GE spacemaker it is!

About the island, I did notice it was shorter and like it stepping in.

I can't wait to see how this all turns out. Now to actually figure out the cabinets, finishes, what will go where (e.g. spices, pans, dishes, etc.)... Well, I'll wait to see if this design gets approved by the county first...

Thanks so much everyone for your help and feedback! I can't believe I ended up with a totally new layout! :)

How far the pantry doors - or for that matter, any cabinet doors - swing will depend on its hinges. They don't have to swing as wide as your inspiration photo. That's a question for your cabinet maker.

I forgot to mention a caution about pantry pull-outs. A friend added them to a pantry cabinet but neither the designer nor the cabinet maker warned her that it would be impossible to see inside, much less access, the full-width top pull-out without a step stool (it pulled out over her head). I can't remember if the pull-out one lower had the same issues (she showed me her new kitchen some months ago). She's disappointed by how poorly the top section of her pantry functions for her. Perhaps if the pull-out had been narrower, she might at least have been able to see what was on it without a step stool and then she'd know whether she needed to go grab the step stool. She wishes she'd asked that to be swapped for tray storage or something similar.

You're welcome! Don't forget to keep us posted!

Greenhighlighter, I just wanted to point out a few things that have little to do with your kitchen. I just had architectural plans drawn up and we debated doing a large deck across the whole back of our house similiar to your plan. However, our house does not have an open floor plan and we felt the deck would be too compartmentalized and one side would not be utilized as much, not to mention the cost for the enormous deck and all the windows and doors was overwhelming.

As you are planning to start a family soon, I would also consider how it would be to have your little ones running to the other side of the deck, out of your line of sight. This would be more of a concern if the deck is very elevated. Just some food for thought. Love your pantry ideas! Good Luck!

Lisa -- good point about the pull outs. I think I like the big, swinging doors anyway (with drawers on the bottom).

Dilly -- our decks is actually a roof deck (well, one side has a few feet of cantilevered deck). I probably would be worried about little ones running to the other side (the deck is more than three floors up since we're on a downslope lot!) but I'll probably just keep them inside if I can't keep an eye on them. And we definitely plan to put up some kid friendly railing (not sure what that is right now, but it's on our list of things to figure out).

The thing we love most about our house is our view from that side of the house. And we have very moderate weather, so we spend a ton of time eating, reading, relaxing on our current deck.

How about something like this? You keep the cleanup sink off the island, and you get the long side of the island facing the range. You can do a wall of windows over the sink if the view is nice there (not sure if it is.. I think you said your neighbors are 10-15' away on that side). If not, you might do something neat with a vaulted ceiling and cabinetry (see segbrown's finished kitchen). It also keeps the range somewhat out of the traffic pattern coming in from the deck.. at least you will have a little warning before someone (or a little one) comes in those doors and is right behind you while your hands are holding a pot of boiling water to dump.

Interesting idea, tracie_erin! But it looks like you went with a 36" fridge, not the 48" that the OP is planning for, which makes for tight spacing around the range.

My estimate is that the pantry is 60" along that wall, give or take an inch or two. That wall is 184.75". 184.75" - 60" pantry - 48" fridge - 48" range = 28" or 14" on each side of the range. Now if you do a mirror image of the the pantry so that the long wall is along the side wall, you gain about a foot. That would give 20" on each side of the range. Since the long side of the island with prep sink is opposite, that's doable, IMO.

Here's how the numbers roughly play out for the side wall (or sink wall, in this plan). 165.25" - 48" pantry (guesstimate) - 36" sink cabinet - 24" DW = 57.25" total for cabinetry around the sink and DW area or 28" to the left of the sink and to the right of the DW. You can give up a foot here to gain it on the range/fridge wall, IMO.

I had another idea, borrowed from plans rhome has drawn up for others here. I couldn't find one of her drawings so there might need to be some tweaking but here it is:

{{gwi:2107986}}

That's a pocket door into the pantry - this would be dry-walled, not cabinetry - which eliminates your concern about pantry door/fridge door collisions. It also gives you a (small) walk-in pantry. I estimate it will be 52" exterior. The cabinet to the left of the sink in now 24" without affecting the entry into the great room.

You'd have 44 inches of counter on each side of the range. Plenty of room for prep, to create a baking center, to add a MW in a cab above.

Anyhoo, just another idea.

Are you hiring a kitchen designer? Some architects might know their stuff about kitchen design but it's generally not their strength. Given what your architect initially gave you, I'm going to say he or she is weak in kitchen design. Might be a good idea to run your plan past a KD to make sure it functions as well IRL as it looks like it will on paper. And I'm sure there will be tweaks needed to my plan since I haven't included filler cabinets, etc, required for clearance around appliances, corner cabinets, etc.

I like these two latest, too! My head is spinning!

We weren't planning on hiring a kitchen designer but now I'm thinking we might need to. The good thing is that we have down what we need to submit the addition plans to the county!

I'm going to print these out and stare at them for a bit... :)

Here's an option...it gives you everything you want, including one seat at the island.

Included...A Corner Pantry (5'x5' interior measurement), 48" Refrigerator, 30" Warming Drawer (WD), 48" Range, 54" Hood, 24" MW Drawer, Pass-through to the back deck, a Beverage/Snack Center, and an Appliance Garage for your often-used small appliances, etc.

• Zones...There's a nice separation of the Prep & Cooking Zones from the Cleanup Zone (see zone map at end). There are also several secondary zones that will be available for other people working in the kitchen, some even have water access.

Sink and Pass-through...Besides being the pass-through you wanted, there are two other things about the window.

The first is that it's a counter-height window. Counter-height windows maximize window size and light as well as are just nice to have (I love mine!)

The second thing is that I show a 6" or 7" bump-out of the window. This bumpout gives you more workspace behind the sink as well as provides you with more space behind the window to minimize window-splashing. Depending on where you live, you could even extend the counter out the window and onto the deck area. This would give you not only a deeper pass-through from the kitchen, but would also give you more space for using the counter as a "buffet" for snacks while on the deck.
Counter & Cabinet Depths...There are several counter & cabinet depths. Deeper counters give you extra workspace...you'd be surprised the difference just 2 or 3 inches makes! The deeper cabinets give you extra storage...again, 2 or 3 inches make a surprising difference.

The counters flanking the range are the standard 25.5" depth (24" cabinet + 1.5" counter overhang).

The counters on the "bottom" are 27.5" deep with 26" deep cabinets. Note: Not all cabinetmakers offer 26" deep cabinets. If yours does not or you don't want to pay the upcharge for them, simply pull the cabinets 2" from the wall and you have standard cabinets with a deeper counter and more workspace. Ditto for the 27" cabinets, only pull them 3" from the wall (see island cabinet comment below).

The sink side is a little different. In front of the window, the counter is approx 32" deep (25.5" + 6" bump out), in front of the wall, the counter is the standard 25.5" deep.

The island is 30" deep with 27" deep cabinets.

The upper cabinets on the "bottom" are 15" deep.
Corner Pantry...This one has a much better door than the architect gave you...did s/he really think a 20" door would be wide enough? We have a 24" door to our corner pantry and while it's fine, I would definitely not want anything narrower!

The shelves are 12" deep. You could go deeper, but I don't recommend it. Most of us here on Kitchens have found that deeper shelves lead to lost items. 12" is deep enough for at least 3 cans...

OMW buehl! That is amazing. I don't know how you fit in an island and countertops on both sides!!!! LOVE IT. I'm sending it to the architect now!

Of course, if you have to have the sliding glass doors in the kitchen, this won't work! But remember, if the doors are in the kitchen you're drawing traffic through the kitchen.

This could be a significant issue if you have the range next the sliding doors and the refrigerator to the right of it...you're drawing all that traffic right into and through the Cooking Zone...and that's the zone that needs the most protection from traffic!

Imagine trying to cross to the island with a pot of boiling water while dodging kids and/or guests trying to get to the refrigerator or sink...

The one with the range on the bottom wall and the island b/w the sliding drawers and the range is better...

13'9" = 165"

...25.5" range wall
+ 42" aisle
+ 30" island
+ 42" aisle
+ 25.5" sink wall
..165"

This is actually the minimum width you need for a kitchen to have a decent-sized island (30" deep).

If you want seating, you need another 22" or so (15" overhang + 1" decorative door on the back of the peninsula + another 6", minimum, for the aisle with seats...48").

After calming down a bit, I was a bit unsure about the skinny island. I pulled a couple photos from an old gardenweb post, and I think they look OK.

Now my questions are:
- I was hoping to use the island as a place to put out snacks as people congregate as we cook. The sink to the left sort of limits that. Would it be possible to scoot the sink further "down" towards the pantry? Or is there too much interference with the range being right across?
- You didn't put upper cabinets above the MW drawer and that 30" cabinet stretch. Any reason why? You mention maybe putting some ones with glass doors there, though?
- For the pantry door, could I put two little doors like that inspiration pic? I'm so in love with that.
- I wanted to have one of those giant single bowl farmhouse apron sinks. I haven't really looked into them yet, but I assume that they're bigger than 30"? But maybe not?

Somewhat related, our entry to the deck on that side of the house will now go through the dining room. There's that 4 ft 8.5 in wall that we will use. Any recommendations on door style or anything?

Are you a kitchen designer??

Many thanks!!

Greenhighlighter, I must have misread, I thought you wanted a kitchen set-up for entertaining as well as daily cooking needs, which is why I gave you wider aisles (better able to accommodate multiple cooks) and a large island near the sliding door, an ideal place for setting out food for guests as they wander in and out. Buehl's plan is quite nice but if you want to use it to set out snacks and/or buffets, the narrow island might not work as well.

One way to avoid the potential traffic of people crossing the cooking zone to get to the fridge - a valid concern of my plans that Buehl pointed out - is to add a beverage fridge in the island. Or move the door to the deck to the dining area.

As for your deck door question, if it's not against code, consider outward opening French doors. Since you're in a temperate area, you won't have to worry about snow piled up against the door, blocking the exit.

My college-age son is home today. Watching him and his brother in the kitchen, I am reminded that the busiest path in our house is the one to the fridge, the pantry, and the MW. Luckily, these are all together in one location (and will stay that way when we remodel). The only time they have to cross the cooking zone is when they get glasses - and that will change with our remodel because we're moving the cooktop to another area.

This may not be the case in your house but since you mentioned you wanted kids at some point, I thought I'd mention it as something to consider when weighing pros and cons of the various plans. You will work in your kitchen one way, kids have different priorities. You could circumvent this issue by setting up a snack center on the periphery. Given how my boys and their friends eat, that could become a *large* snack center at some point. ;-)

Sink...I wasn't sure what you wanted for a cleanup sink. It looked like a 30" sink base in your hand-drawn version, so I thought that was what you wanted. I think these sinks do come in 30", but there are bigger sizes as well. What about the prep sink, is it too big for you? I put in a 6" wider one in than I usually do b/c you have the room. I usually put in an 18" b/c of space limitations for most people.

Pantry Doors...If you can find 12" doors, I don't see why not. Do you think, though, that it may become a pain to have to open two doors every time you need to get into the pantry? On the upside, it will minimize the impact the doors will have on the aisle.

Upper cabinets on window wall...I didn't put them in b/c I didn't think you wanted them. I didn't see any on your hand-drawn plus there's been a movement lately on this site to not put upper cabinets on the wall. It's supposed to make a kitchen feel more "open". Personally, I think if a kitchen is fairly wide it doesn't have as much of an impact on "openness" as a big window does. I think it just looks like empty walls. However, to each his own! I actually recommend upper cabinets there!

Door style for doors to deck...Aesthetically, I like the look of french doors (2 doors) or sunscape (3 doors/windows). When they're in a DR or kitchen, they work best opening to the outside so they don't hit tables/chairs/cabinets or get in the way of people. If exterior doors have to open inward (they do in our County), then functionally, sliding doors are probably better.

You're also limited to 4' so I might consider a 48" wide french door with two 24" doors. However, if there's a center stile, then I would stick with one 36" door for easy access and plenty of room if you're carrying platters or other things. You could then have full-height windows flanking the doors.

Using the island for staging food/snacks...I think it will still work well for that. You could move the sink & DW down another 15", if you wanted to. In some ways, the DW will act as a bit of a barrier to keep people out of the Prep & Cooking Zones...just open it up! (Just kidding!)

You might even consider taking 3" from the aisle on the range side and putting it in the aisle on the sink side of the island, making those aisles 39" and 45", respectively.

With an entertaining-centric kitchen, you should strive to find ways to separate the work zones from the visitor zones. You don't want people wandering in & through the Prep & Cooking Zones (unless they're invited), so you need a barrier of some sort...and the island does do that. Additionally, it's actually not a bad idea to have the Cleanup Zone accessible enough for visitors to be able to put their dirty dishes in the sink w/o, again, invading your prep & cooking space.

I understand that you currently entertain with other couples and that it might be more "formal", but keep in mind that when you have children, your entertaining...

I would look at two things on Buehl's drawing. I like more work room around the range, so I'd like to move that fridge. Mine was and still is on the end wall -- next to where the pantry is drawn there. I like having the food storage together like that.

That would open up counter space on both sides and allow you to move the micro over to the range wall (I would encourage the micro drawer if it is possible for you -- I got one i the first year they were out, before improvements were made, and I still love mine). I had the micro on the far side of the island like that and I absolutely hated it. It would be even worse here with it opposite both the range and the fridge. In the redo, I put mine at the end of the cooking run -- where the fridge is drawn. It is handy for little things like melting butter when cooking or baking, can functon as a second warming drawer with the keep warm function, can be part of the cooking but doesn't require snackers to get into the heavy working part of the kitchen. It is also close to your eating and serving areas and it's much easier to carry something cold to the micro than something hot out of the micro. I do have fridge drawers in my breakfast area and having just that beverage service and sandwich making traffic out of the main kitchen most of the time does make a difference for entertaining. For the two of you, you'd be fine without them. When entertaining, you can set out an ice bucket and beverages at the end of the kitchen, but when kids come along or if you entertain a lot, you might look at putting fridge drawers or a beverage center at the end -- maybe where the micro is drawn in buehl's drawing. If you have power and a 24" or 27" space that your could change out later, you could retain the option of adding that down the road.

I took a corner pantry out of my kitchen. Most folks seem to really like them, but mine needed a total reworking inside to be useful, and then I realized that just a couple of inches would allow me more layout options and the rest is history. I have no regrets, but if you do the corner pantry, make sure you arrange the interior for best use. Don't let some guy just throw shelves in there without thinking.

Here is what I'm thinking --
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By the way, my kitchen is close to the same size as yours -- 165" wide, 147" on the cooking wall and about 2 feet longer on the sink wall, and I have 2 doorways breaking up the space, so you have about 5-6 feet more to work with than I did. My island is 36" total --21" (vanity depth) cabinets on the warming drawer and sink side, 13" door cabinets on the back side facing the main sink -- great storage, plus doors and overhangs. It makes a very usable island on top and below. My aisles are a little narrower than most folks here want, but we have a busy family of 4 (teen boys), 2 large dogs and guests (up to 20 or so) on a fairly regular...

Wow! I am seriously amazed at the brain power on this forum!! To respond to the latest posts:

Clean-up sink. Honestly, I hadn't thought much about it, but my aunt has a giant farmhouse apron sink that I love. I feel like it's at least 36". But I realize that my kitchen is smaller than hers (I think), so I may need to give that up.

Prep sink. Hadn't really thought about the size of this guy either. A larger one sounds nicer (clearly), but I'm willing to give a bit of the size up if it means I can use more of the island to work on, set up snacks on.

Uppers by the bump-out window. I definitely want uppers. I'm not terribly hip to kitchen design trends, but it'd be nice to have a place to store glasses right there. Also, our layout is plenty open and we have a ton of windows on that side of the house there already -- the whole dining room has floor to ceiling windows, plus an (I think) 8 foot sliding glass door in the family room.

The suggestion of moving the sink and DW down another 15" to open up access to the island. WOuld this throw off the alignment of the bump out? I guess the bump out window could be moved, but I assumed it was centered on the wall there and wasn't sure if it'd look weird off-center.

Could we flip the prep sink and the warming drawer? That would give more countertop space on the island for setting out stuff on the more accessible side?

Also, addressing the comments about the MW location, could the MW drawer go on the island? At the dining room end? maybe taking out the seat? Or having some sort of leaf that could be extended out if we want to use that as a seat (how useful is a seat for 1?)

Lascatx -- you mention your aisles are narrower than what people recommend but that it works well for your busy family. What size are your aisles? My husband and I measured and, honestly, 36" seems to be a pretty good aisle! But maybe we'll feel differently once kids come along (no plans for pets ever; my husband is adamantly against).

Thanks everyone for thinking so much about my plans. I really appreciate it!!

My aisles are 37 on the sink side and 40 on the cooking side, except for 37 right at the rangetop. The biggest problem we had before was DH and I working at the cooktop and the sink and/or DW at the same time. We also gained a little space by going with a built-in fridge on the end and putting the island as far back of the fridge as the existing tile would allow. That is 42" and is nice because that side door is the most often used entrance and exit for the house. The extra inches have mattered more for things like bringing in groceries and clearing the greeting dogs or moving things like a new grill to the back patio or yard than for cooking.

My sink is about 30-31" and it seems huge. My prep sink is 15+ inches and it is a food size. If you have 18, that would be nice and 24 would be luxurious for me. Just don't go smaller than 15-16 inches.

You prep sink and MW could be flipped. That might discourage the non-cooking hand washers from dropping in, but it also makes the sink less handy for beverage service if you wanted to use it that way for entertaining. You might want to jealously protect it for cooks use -- just something to consider about how you would use it in different situations and which means most for you.

You have some choices on micro and warming drawer placement at the ends of your run and island. You have the right idea in terms of flow from cooking area to table. My warming drawer is in my island at the end opposite the micro. It works well there, except if we have a party and use it for holding things like tortilla chips, popcorn or pizza warm and you have a bunch of kids standing around. I don't regret what I have, but if I had room to put them side by side like you do, I might look at that so that they are part of the cook's space and not part of the munchers space when the island is set up for snacking. You can also learn to set things out a little differently as I have had to do. There was a WD to fit a 21" cabinet but the micro needed the full 24". Works fine 98% of the time and 2% can be planned around.

GreenHighlighter, since you're at the beginning of your remodel, I thought you might like to know about a kitchen design book giveaway from Kelly Morisseau, CMKBD and blogger at Kelly's Kitchen Sync who just published her a book on kitchen design. Post at her blog (link below) for a chance to win one of five copies that she's giving away. Deadline for entry is tomorrow. She gives excellent advice with humor on her blog and in her book (I have a copy).

I like lascatz's suggestions. I also like more space around my range and I much prefer having all my food storage in one place. Saves steps.

On aisles, we have 2 that are 39" and another that is 46". I look at them and think they are huge. Until there are two or more of us in the space with cabinet doors/drawers, fridge or oven doors open. The 46" aisle has fridge on one side and cook top on the other almost across from each other. Before we got a CD fridge, there was a good deal of butt bumping going on. ;-) It's not a huge deal to wait one's turn but kitchen aisles are different than hallways where it's just walls or doors that open inward. We are considering shrinking the aisle down a couple inches to gain a slightly bigger island (39" now, would not want smaller, I like to spread out ;-) ).

Here is a link that might be useful: Kelly's Kitchen Sync blog

I just came back and looked at this -- I'd flip the sink and DW if you moved the fridge -- then you avoid a conflict with open doors, create a second prep zone if you want one in the corner (think salads, appetizers, make ready for cooking) and you can drop that DW door and keep folks out of your kitchen while putting things away if you want (sometimes too many hands make familiar tasks harder, but I rarely get that many offers). ;-)

Also, looking at the note above, the more you have going on on opposing sides of the aisle, the more you will want wider aisles. Makes sense. The narrower aisles work just fine for me because of the way the work and the appliances, etc are divided up. The cooktop, prep sink and [rep areas adjoining them are mine (assuming I am cooking). If DH is helping prep, he generally stands on the other side of the island or sometimes down at the other end with the trash pullout between us. The warming drawer tends to get opened before things get too busy and again after. It could be in conflict with the micro drawer, but they don't seem except maybe one meal a year (the holiday dinner where someone is running late and I'm using the WD, micro and oven to hold things -- probably steaming a little myself). Nothing happens on my sink side other than clean-up and storage unless DH is standing there prepping while I'm on the other side of the sink. We've often had 2 or 3 people cooking and not bumping into each other. Before, with the sink and DW opposing the cooktop on the island, we were bumping into each other all the time with just 2. It was even worse when we had to go around the island to get to the ovens or micro. The aisles haven't changed significantly, but the traffic patterns have.

Thanks again, everyone!

I made a small tweak -- switching the prep sink and warming drawer and then moving the microwave drawer.

I think I like the fridge being on the outskirts of the kitchen, even if it means that my two food sources (the fridge and pantry) are separated.

About the space around the range, would it possible to make the corner pantry smaller, giving more space on the range wall? I don't quite have the artistic skills (or function kitchen knowledge) to figure that one out. I'd be willing to give up a foot on that wall from the pantry for more countertop space. Would the asymmetry look funky? Should I take a foot off both ends, so the pantry would be 48"x 48"? Is that, then, too small?

lisa- thanks for the blog link. I've read a ton of kitchen design (and general house design books), but more is always better!! And I did all that reading when we began our remodel design... about a year ago... :)

Corner pantry resize....If you take a foot off, only take it off of one side. You don't want to make the pantry too small. My corner pantry ended up being 41" x 51"...and it's smaller than I would have liked. So, if yours is 48" x 60", it will at least be bigger than mine. Will it be big enough for you? I don't know. Do you shop in bulk? If you do or think you might when you have children, do you have another place to store the "overflow"? (Maybe a basement "overflow" pantry?)

OK, how about this?

And when you're entertaining...

If the fridge on the outside of the kitchen is important to you, can you shift the pantry the other way (or do talls along that wall) and put the range on the lower or back wall? I understand having the fridge handy to the table - I hated having to get up from the table and go all the way across the kitchen to the back wall for a refill during a meal -- or for forgotten butter, etc., and it would happen at least once or twice every meal, sometimes more. But with the appliances you are looking at, I'm reading in some serious cooking and use of that kitchen and I can tell you that having the fridge being a cook's territory and having beverages only on the outside is not a bad thing. In fact, it is one of the best things we did for us.

Resizing the pantry helps, but I still feel like you have two very large, premium appliances trying to say "pro style kitchen" squished on a single wall. Your kitchen is more than large enough to not require that. Of course I am seeing this the way I use my kitchen, but it looks like 3/4 of the work happening in about 1/3 of the space. That means other space goes underutilized -- in your case, almost an entire wall.

Your kitchen doesn't have to look like or work like mine, but do think about that. The kitchen is the most expensive and most used square footage in a house. Get the most you can out of it.

I think I would be happy with any size pantry! Right now we have none. And we do do some bulk shopping and get creative with storage. With the remodel, we will have a basement that we can store things in, too.

I'm open to shifting the pantry and moving the range. My only concern would be that the clean-up sink side of the house faces west and gets a lot of afternoon sun. I'm not sure if a pantry on that side would then get too warm? But I guess houses are insulated, so it should be fine.

What do you mean by "talls" along that wall?

While the fridge and range are on one wall, I keep reading that only a small fraction of my time in the kitchen will be at the range. So, I was thinking that that would be OK?

Thanks again all

You wrote that you and your husband cook together. Please do a dry run of standing butt to butt - one at the range, one at the prep sink - in a 36" space to make sure this is sufficient room for you. Go through the motions of opening oven doors, trash pull-out, warming drawer, etc, as well.

For instance, you won't be able to open the oven door on the right and go straight to an already opened warming drawer. The oven door will hit the warming drawer. You'll either need to open the oven door, set the dish down, close the oven door, then open the warming drawer or open the oven door, then open the warming drawer and then transfer the dish. If the oven shelf doesn't also hit the warming drawer, that is.

If this is all okay with you, then you've got your plan! If not, make adjustments now. Paper changes are cheap. ;-) For instance, if the oven to warming drawer move bothers you, opt for a 27" warming drawer and put it next to the range in the 27" space. You likely won't miss the 3" of warming drawer space and may appreciate the increased convenience.

A solution for the cheek to cheek situation is for someone to prep on the other side of the island. It would be a good idea to store prep items - measuring spoons, knives, etc - in a location easily accessed regardless of what side of the island one is on. Another suggestion: opt for a faucet mounted in the corner of the prep sink (make sure you buy a sink that allows this faucet location) so that the faucet can be used by people on each side of the island.

I'm assuming that you'll store dishes, silverware and glasses to the left of the DW (and sink) because it would be nigh impossible to access the cabinets to the right of it. You still may run into conflicts when unloading, depending on what you store in the cabs to the right, but I'm betting they won't be items used as regularly as dishes, etc.

Kitchens are all about trade-offs and only you can determine which ones you're willing to make but it's best to realize those now instead of discovering any shortcomings when the remodel is completed.

Talls along the wall: this is when you put all your tall items - floor to ceiling cabinets, wall ovens, fridges, pantry cabs, etc - on one wall, creating one tall wall of storage.

btw, the book I mentioned is not your typical kitchen design book. It's full of insider tips to avoid the "if only I'd known" circumstances. For instance, it talks about how French door fridges affect kitchen design unlike other fridge styles, how to deal with appliances near corners, how to avoid cabinet door/hood collisions and more.

I'm currently traveling, so we won't be able to do a 36" dry run until I'm back home in a couple of weeks.

I'm thinking about the location of the WD. If we had it next to the range, I would still have similar issues b/c I'd have to stand to the far side of the range and likely couldn't reach across the open range door to the WD. Unless, I had room behind the oven door when it's fully open. That said, I had envisioned using the warming drawer more to keep prepared plates warm, not to keep stuff in baking dishes warm (b/c then I could just turn off the oven and leave it in there, right? At least, that's what I do now!

I like the idea of prepping on opposite sides of the island when it's just the two of us (and oddly, when we're entertaining, my husband is usually with the guests, while I wrap up cooking). Where would you see a good location for prep materials that could be easily accessed from both sides? I'm stumped.

And what do you mean about a corner mounted faucet for the prep sink? I like the idea of being able to use the sink from either side -- a perk of a skinny island!

I don't think I like the talls along the wall. It seems intimidating!

Oh, that book sounds great. I'll probably pick it up (if I don't win a copy!).

Thanks again soo much!

Am I allowed to bump? Or is this a sign that we're over talking about this anymore? :)

I think the etiquette is that you can bump at at least once per ignored post.

I don't like skinny islands so I still like the layout I posted the best, even if your 4' fridge does crowd the range a bit. Who cares about that when you have a huge island 4' or less away? ;) Good luck with whatever you decide!