Hi Sandy,

Why don't you start by talking to your plumber to see if there's anything special he needs to do on the installation. He might also have some cabinetry recommendations.

Judydel used the Harborview in her mudroom/pantry area. For garden produce if I remember properly. It has the legs, and is free standing though there are cabinets nearby. Cotehele has the Clarion in her baking area, I think. Here's an older thread that talks about these sinks.

I tried to get the Clarion to fit in my new kitchen and it just didn't as it wasn't my top priority.

The thing is, the Harborview, and the original models like it weren't meant to be sunk into cabinetry. Back in the old days they often put a skirt on the sink, but even with fitted cabinets, they left the under sink area open. It was for a combination of access, knowing if you had a leak, and a feeling that mold, vermin, etc., were going to attach the undersink area (partly because the garbage pail was often under there as well).

You can have a cabinet built around your sink, that follows its lines and it can be very beautiful. I have the Bayview in my laundry. You can get a crappy stand for it from Kohler, but my cabinetmaker made a beautiful stand, with curved legs that follow the front curves. I can't find my picture of it.

You might consider a small secondary sink next to your dishwasher. That way, if you were in the middle of processing vegetables in your farm sink, you'd have somewhere to wash a pan, or stack the lunch dishes.

Stick to your guns! You can do this! Figure out what you want the kitchen to look like, and then shop around for someone who will do it for you.

Check out arlosmom's kitchen. I'll try to find the link, but you should definitely search on your own. Her sink was more like the Clarion rather than the Kohler, but you may get some ideas, since she explained pretty explicitly how it was integrated into her cabinetry.

Thank you. I'll keep checking. I do feel the Harborview needs to be freestanding and left open, even if a "frame" or "valance" were built and a curtain underneath. I think it would look great with some antique crocks sitting underneath it and left open with the legs. This would also allow for cleaning down the sides and underneath (it's not like a sink can be moved out to clean underneath like a stove can). I have seen pictures of it dropped onto a freestanding cabinet, but I feel it ruins the look and at that point I may as well get a large cast iron undermount sink.

My husband is doing the plumbing. The plumbing really isn't any different to deal with than any of the other various sinks around. It's more of integrating the look of the sink with the adjoining cabinetry properly.

It sure is discouraging to try and find anyone that wants to actually work, let alone enjoy the design process with the homeowner. This is supposed to be fun, and it isn't anymore.

Anyway, I'll still have thgat sink near the kitchen area, near the washer and dryer, but I thought it would be nice to use it like they did in the early 1900's in the kitchen. I've had the typical lovely kitchen that looks like magazine articles, but it isn't me. I never enjoyed cooking in it.

We have land once again, and have built a log style home, simple but refined as opposed to primitive, and want it to feel like that vacation home everyone dreams about getting away on weekends to. We decided instead of the whole vacation thing why not actually live that way.

Sandy

Sandy, we have the type of sink I think you are referring to. However, our kitchen in unfitted. All cupboards are free standing. It is plumbed with an extra drain for a dishwasher, but we decided not to install one. There is only the 2 of us, so I don't really mind doing the dishes.

I love my sink and would never part with it. If that is your dream and what you want, then persist!

I would love a big honking sink like that! Ours is a 1940 Kohler with integrated sideboard (one side) and its own bs for a wall mount faucet. It is not as built up as the one shown, so it is mean for being on top of a cabinet, which is how ours is installed. We got ours from freecycle so were really lucky. I would have loved a double sided one, the bigger the better, but had had trouble finding one to buy locally before lucking into our for free.

If I had one like in Mary's pic, I'd probably put a big shelf underneath and maybe a skirt. It would be a great way to use a vintage fabric, but is not necessary. I'd probably want to tile the wall behind and underneath it if it were installed wide open.
In any case, it sounds wonderful and many people appreciate the look and function of sinks like that. You are not alone. If that is weird, then count me in ;)

Thanks so much ladies! Mary lu, I LOVE your sink! I have actually considered adding unfitted kitchen pieces in my kitchen because I am so disgruntled with trying to get a kitchen at all from anyone. I mean, come on. I am willing to pay, within reason of coarse, for someone's skills in making a quality kitchen. I had custom cabinets made by a clock maker in our northern home and they stood up to 5 children and were such high quality they could be refinished like furniture. Not so with anything offered by factories.

Tell me how you like the function of your unfitted and freestanding kitchen pieces. Do you miss, or wish you had the kind of kitchen we are all brainwashed into thinking we must have? Or have you loved your unfitted kitchen, where you have lovingly added pieces as you needed them and never looked back?

I see no problem with adding cabinetry on either side of a sink like that if I wanted some extra countertop and a place in which to stuff a dishwasher. It is just the two of us now as well, but sometimes I generate a LOT of dishes and bowls, etc. and am spoiled by my dishwasher.

I'm beginning to like being "weird", and it makes me smile that I am not alone.

Sandy

Sandy, I love that sink ... Mary Lu your kitchen feels like where all things comfortable started from. Where my mind starts spinning when I see that is, as Mary Lu says, "unfitted". I see (fwiw) a long, long basically plank table running parallel to that sink and everything springing from it. I see my ultimate dream: a rocking chair in the kitchen. That's what defines for me a Real Kitchen. This sink has a lower feel to it like everything that flows from it would be more accessible.

Gosh it is hard finding anyone willing to work and create with you, alongside you. But at least your plumber will!

Don't forget that GW is, at the end of the day, a group and all groups get their own internal group dynamic going. This old stuff doesn't seem to be quite the going aesthetic here at the moment. But that sure doesn't mean it's not wonderful.

I really hope you'll stick with what -- as they say here -- "makes your heart sing". Adding piecewise, step by step from this central sink you know you want - that sounds like a very wise plan to me.

I think it is trailrunner who used a beautiful old soapstone sink in a pantry maybe? I'm pretty sure it's on the Finished Kitchens Blog. I think she fitted some cabinets to either side.

This is the arlosmom did it (apologies for posting her pic):

Thre pictures really help so much. This forum moves along fast so I hope there are others who will see this thread and keep it going. The sharing of ideas triggers other ideas and helps create some wonderful things.

I am going to keep calling around to see if I can find the right person. Sometimes I can eliminate some just by the attitude during a phone call. I know what I want built but I feel I need help making it materialize, but I sure am getting burned out! I think mainly because when you are building a house from scratch, and doing it all yourself, the brain gets overloaded. Our building inspector is quite impressed with our workmanship on the house. Well, that's because our house is being built with love.

Hopefully, we'll see some more input here. I think you are correct in stating that because it is not the popular trend right now many people can't relate. I do feel there is a growing interest in it though, but people aren't quite sure how to go about it and they're made to feel awful about doing this kind of kitchen. They then go along with what they are told they want or should have.

I decided it's my money, my kitchen, and my house.....not someone who's only interest is cashing my check after they have convinced me I "need" or "should have" stacks upon stacks of boring cabinetry. I looked at one man and said his design made me feel like I was walking into a lawyer's office! In addition, I told him a regular old boring closets would have served the purpose, perhaps better.

Sandy

Courage, Sandy! You might have to keep digging, but I'm betting you'll find the old school carpenter of your dreams. I SO wish you lived closer and I could send you mine. He was on board with everything from our 1949 stove to our experimental roofing-copper countertops.

You might ask around at the good old-fashioned local (ie, non-chain) lumberyards in your area. Their staff are often familiar with the independent craftsmen, who tend to shop at such places. Can't hurt to ask for some references.

The loss of individuality is the price paid for affordable mass production, and many folks simply can't afford to seek out a custom carpenter (or believe they can't? or aren't inspired to?). But if you're the type who is willing to invest a lot of time and your own sweat, it is indeed possible to do a vastly more personalized kitchen for less $$ than the standard big box cabinetry prices.

In terms of your sink, cabinets on either side are not hard to envision:

I didn't do anything very crazy with my kitchen, but I ran into similar attitudes. I live in a 1950's rancher with clean lines and minimal ornamentation and most contractors I spoke to thought I was crazy for not wanting to transform my home into something more "traditional" (6 panel doors, crown moulding, tuscan kitchen). I think it's easier for a contractor/carpenter to put in the same kitchen over and over and over again. When you ask for something different, then there's a learning curve for them. Also, I think they're used to customers who WANT to be told what they should like.

I like those old sinks. I'm not sure how we got from there to the new version of the farm sink (apron front "farm" sinks).

Maybe ask your building inspector who seems friendly, whether s/he knows of a carpenter involved with restoration-type projects. Seems someone who loves Old Houses might be someone to hook up with?

I imagine inspectors aren't allowed to recommend contractors, but perhaps they can tell you of restoration-type sites? Asking there might get you pointed in the right direction.

Good luck! I just installed a Blanco "super single" billed as huge and wonderful and I'm finding ... it's smaller than I had envisioned! I have lived and worked with some massive old sinks at times and I was envisioning a bit of that I think. There's nothing like it; I hope you stick with your vision. It's not really substitute-able.

I like those old sinks. I'm not sure how we got from there to the new version of the farm sink (apron front "farm" sinks).

There was a thread called "Explain the allure of a farmhouse sink." Short answer: They're traditional British sinks, where they're called Belfast sinks.

Here is a link that might be useful: The origin of farmhouse sinks

Thanks, marcolo. Fascinating. It's interesting to see that they aren't a modern invention, but rather an import. I think it's a bit of a lie to call them "farmhouse sinks" as though they existed in turn-of-the-century Iowa farmhouse kitchens.

Agreed. There are now two authentic American reproduction sinks you can buy, AFAIK. One is the big long double drainboard sink with optional legs, the other is the little '20s version with a drainboard on one side. Both really were in Iowa kitchens once, unlike the Belfast sinks.

I love these old sinks! I have seen quite a few at the architectural salvage place and admired them greatly. I love the size of the sink and the integrated drainboards. Very practical and clean. Wish it would go with my kitchen. Good luck to you. No advice, just encouragement!!

How do you suppose the counter and cabinetry should be integrated? If the sink is not dropped onto cabinetry and left with legs exposed (or a curtain) then the adjoing drips and slops can easily be cleaned due to the open access.

Otherwise I am guessing the counter would butt up to the sink with caulking? Anyone done this and then had issues with the whole caulking thing?

Most likely the most "authentic" thing is to leave the sink freestanding so I can get a dishrag up and down the sides when needed. The cabinets would go next to it like a stove would.

Sure could use some brainstorming as I think I'm pretty much on my own figuring this out.

Sandy

If you scroll down in this thread, in addition to Arlosmom's sink there's a picture (or a few pictures) of Nutherokie's, which is in progress and shows how the carpenter did it.

Here is a link that might be useful: Vintage Sink Situation Thread

JudyDel's kitchen comes to mind! I just uploaded her canning pics to my blog the other day. Looks like her Kohler is in a mud room?? Not sure. Love her life!

Here is a link that might be useful: Judydel's harborview

Hi, Sandy,

I found a pic of a vintage kitchen (while perusing the Old House forum.) It has a freestanding sink between counters, and the site has lots of other pics of vintage and period kitchens. Maybe there will be more examples of that style.

Here is a link that might be useful: 1920's kitchen

Hi everyone. I haven't been on GW in ages and decided to log on tonight. So glad that I did or else I might have missed this thread on garden sinks. I love, love, love mine. I found the Harbor View on Craig's List and saved a bundle. They even delivered it for free and helped carry it in! Sabjimata I'm honored that you posted my garden harvesting photos on your blog. I took and posted lots of photos last summer for GW and also for Facebook because I wanted to inspire others to garden and "put up". So it's perfect that you re-posted them in an effort to inspire. Sabjimata you're photos and blog are also very inspiring!!

Sandy, don't lose heart. After speaking to several kitchen designers I decided to design my own. We added on to our home and I successfully designed it all including a major kitchen renovation, new bathroom, laundry room, mudroom and two new bedrooms. The kitchen was the hardest, but worth the effort. It works for my needs perfectly! I cook, bake, can, freeze, dehydrate, pickle, store food and clean up effortlessly. I wish you the same : )

I flanked the Harbor View with cabinets. We didn't use calk. The cabinets just about butt up against the sink. The sink is so big, we really haven't had water spill over the sides. If anything does fall into the crease, I just use a credit card or stiff piece of paper to swipe it out. I really haven't had any problems and we've had the kitchen for a couple of years now.

Here are a couple of photos. That's an under counter refrigerator on the left for beverages. The "garage" on the left houses wine, wine bucket, etc. The glass front cabinet on the left stores glasses. On the right the drawers hold colanders, strainers, salad spinner, hand blender, linens. The "garage" on the right stores coffee, espresso maker, milk frother, etc. Above are the mugs, espresso cups, pitchers, sugar bowls, etc.

We have 6 hens, which means we gather 6 eggs each day. The wooden drainer on the Harbor View is used each day to drain the rinsed eggs! It also comes in handy when washing/draining produce from the gardens.

Our Harbor View garden sink and beverage center is located at the far end of our mud room. Across from this area is the main kitchen where we have a second double bowl sink. The main bowl on this sink is FULL SIZE and the second bowl is big enough to fit a dish drainer. The dishwasher is located to the right.

Let me know if you have any questions, and have fun. I loved the process of dreaming up and creating our forever kitchen!

judydel, thank you so much for posting your pictures. You have so inspired me! I decided I'm going to design my kitchen layout myself as well, and then hopefully I will find a good cabinet maker to build my cabinetry. I've sure run into a few fruitcakes along the way. My daughter sugeested I put another Harborview in the laundry area too. Any woman that has seen this sink (still in the box) has fallen in love with it.

What is the brand and size of your other sink? I am thinking of putting an island in my kitchen, with our table off to the side a bit, rather than in the middle of the kitchen itself. In the middle of the kitchen is far, far, a nicer feel, but I need the extra work area nad cabinets, as the nice windows we put in have reduced available wall space. I have great views outdoors though, which is important to me. I may deciode on an extra sink on the island, but niot sure yet. It seems women love island sinks or hate them, with no in between.

Thank you as well to all of you other lovely ladies for your input. I hope this thread keeps going as I am getting such wonderful ideas.

I'm overwhelmed right now with the house construction (we are doing it ourselves) so my visits here are spotty. But I do get back here!

Sandy

O.T. I really like the drainage wings on an enamel sink, but didn't want open space, exposed pipes, & skirt below so a freestanding one was out of the question.

Unfortunately for me, there was no countertop-mounted double basin enamel sink available with drainage wings on both sides when I bought. Ikea and Kohler had models with part of my wants, if I recall correctly, but except for salvage, which DH resisted, there wasn't much else.

It's nice to see interest in functional sinks.

florantha, this sink can also be mounted in a cabinet, which would eliminate the exposed pipes. I have always had double basin sinks, and the middle "bar" was always in my way. I am looking forward to having a wide open sink, and will just use a dishpan if I need the function of a double bowl. Something to think about.

I wish Kohler made a vintage style sink with the built in drainboard. Maybe someday they will offer one.

Every woman who has walked in our house (under construction) and seen that big Kohler sink in the box yet, has absolutely loved it. They said they would not waste it in the laundry room and if I still wanted one in there to buy another one.

Sandy

judydel, do you have pictures that show how you integrated the area with your big Harborview sink with your kitchen? It kind of looks like they may be open to each other, and I like that idea.

Sandy

Sandy sorry for the late reply regarding how the harborview is integrated into the rest of the kitchen.
When you come into our home from the side porch, you enter into a mudroom, and the harborview sink is at the far end of the mudroom. The area with the harborview sink is called our "beverage center" because in the cabinets flanking the sink we have our beverage refrigerator, glasses, mugs, coffee, wine, etc.
This photo was taken standing in front of the harborview looking towards mudroom.

Across from the beverage center is the main kitchen. The photo below was taken with my back to the harborview sink. As you can see the main kitchen is to the left and the dining area is to the right when you enter the main kitchen.

Sandy to answer your other question regarding my double bowl sink. I bought it online from Brass and Traditional in the UK. It's called the Sherbourne. It's quite large with a full side basin on one side and 3/4 size basin on the other. It ended up costing more than I wanted because of importing from the UK. There were extra taxes and fees when it came into port.

Hi Sandy, how are things moving along in your process? I also just want to offer you encouragement to continue pursuing your vision for your forever kitchen. When I started planning for our kitchen remodel, I was absolutely set that my non-negotiable was a drainboard sink and I did talk myself out of-or let myself be talked out of- one.

My trouble-as one of my old threads linked above mentioned-was that my husband wasn't thrilled with the idea, especially about the idea of losing an integrated sprayer in a wall mount faucet. We finally found the Jaclo Steamvalve and I was so excited I would get to have "my" sink, LOL, but the sprayer mechanism was not as smooth and easy to use as I'd hoped. So we have a Barclay "farm" (British/Belfast, thanks for that educational tidbit, Marcolo) sink.

I think the key thing in your case is that you have a crystal clear vision and know what you want. I know that you are frustrated by the idiot naysayers you're encountering who aren't delivering the designs/drawings you're asking for--because they don't know how to.

I also empathize with your frustration of wasting thousands of dollars with architects and designers and not getting to something you can build from. (We wasted a sickening amount of money that I absolutely did not anticipate or budget for getting to "buildable drawings".)

But I want to reassure you-the vision is about THE most important element in a remodel-it will buoy you, keep you on track, and minimize doubts once your home is torn apart, LOL. People proceed all the time without the vision and lose their way. (see exhibit A---me!) Your right craftsman/woman to partner with is out there and then you'll be off and running (if you're not already!)

I'd sure love to see more of those big beautiful sinks so the rest of us can enjoy them vicariously. :) I hope you'll keep posting about your project-all of us old house-and old sink lovers-would love to cheer you on.

littlesmokie, I've been thinking of that faucet, too. That's the one Theresse has, correct? What don't you like about it?

Hi marcolo, yes that is Theresse's faucet- absolutely perfect in her kitchen and even with my hesitation about it's quirks, I always covet hers when I see her photos!

The showroom model I played with was not live, so I could not experience full functionality, these are just my impressions.

I expected to be able to just easily slide the sprayer out and down from the neck and retract it back when I'm done -- like traditional pull out/pull down faucets I've experienced.

The Jaclo seemed to want you to lift the handspray up and off. (Maybe there is an easier trick?) The faucet neck is like a big tray--you lift off the flexible tube sprayer, move the tube around the neck to use, and then when done you need to lift the tubing up, line it back up with the tray, and push it back down into place securing the hand spray mechanism.

My memory is that there was no button on the sprayer attachment. I believe the spray pattern could be adjusted, though and if I remember correctly the salesperson explained that you could twist the head of the sprayer mechanism to change flow pattern. If that were true-maybe Theresse will chime in?-it seems very inconvenient to need two hands to adjust your aeration pattern when you just need to rinse off some berries or whatever. (see link below for davidro's comment about potential to accidentally spray yourself with this faucet, too. I thought this was what he was referring to since there is no "pause" button on the sprayer.) It seems like you'd have to think about this and adjust your spray before the water was on, which seems difficult if you can't see the spray...

The part of the sprayer that you hold felt a bit awkwardly small. It looks very streamlined, but in my hand I almost wanted to hold more like you would a pencil (that is to say, with my fingers) rather than grasping with my whole hand.

(It's not a wall mount--and I didn't select it because the sprayer retracted too loudly--but for comparison ergonomically the best pull down hand sprayer I played with--my girlfriend just got one so I've also used it live now--is the Grohe Bridgeford faucet. Extremely comfortable to hold/grip/well-designed to fit in your hand. The opposite of holding the Jaclo handsprayer which felt too...delicate?)

I feel like I'm frequently mentioning aging in place/arthritis/carpal tunnel considerations in kitchen planning, but I'll say here too, in my opinion the Jaclo would not be a good choice if any of those issues are a concern.

Trying to describe all these little things here undoubtedly makes them seem like a bigger problem then they are. And all that said, for the functionality of even having an integrated wall mount sprayer--not to mention the cool/sexy factor-- I think the faucet is still something worth investigating.

Here is a link that might be useful: Who knew picking faucets would be so complicated?

Haven't been here in ages.....busy with the many, many details involved with getting a house finished! I was thrilled to see more photos and helpful feedback added to this thread! Thank you.

I'm still looking at options for the right cabinet maker. I may have to look out of state at some of the Amish cabinet makers. It seems Pennsylvania has quite a few craftspeople. My main concern is getting high quality cabinet boxes and drawyers made. I can actually find excellent doors locally. I am also starting to experiment with milk paint and may end up painting them myself. If anyone know of any Amish craftsmen close to north Florida, please let me know!

I did manage to find a very nice retired cabinet man who is happy to do consulting work with me. He doesn't want to actually build large projects any more, but he can do accurate measurements and such so that cabinets can be made (when I find the right person). I have a clear idea of what I want now and he will be able to do drawings for me and installation as well.

judydel, if you get back here, I need advice on the harborview sinks. I now have two of them...one for my kitchen and one is going in my laundry area. One of the sinks is the two faucet style, which I think I am going to prefer overall.

The other is the one faucet deck mounted version, which is the first sink we ordered. I'm not sure about that one. The only single faucets that will actually be able to reach the whole 4 ft. of this sink are the Chicago ones, and I don't really like the looks of the multiple swinging joints they have. Too restaurant looking. I am tempted to return this single faucet sink to Home Depot and order another two faucet version. It would be a bear to return since it weighs a ton!. My husband thinks maybe having the two versions of sinks in our house might be nice. I am desperate for some feedback on this! And maybe it doesn't really matter if a center faucet doesn't reach to the edges.

I am glad I stuck to my dreams on this kitchen and didn't let anyone talk me out of something I want. I dug my heels in, relaxed about it, and decided I'd keep searching for the right people to make it happen. When I get it finished I will take pictures for you to see.

Sandy

Have you checked whether milk paint will stand up to the use kitchen cabinets get? It's great for walls in non-wet rooms, but I haven't heard of it being used on cabinets.

I'm fairly sure there are Amish in Florida and Georgia. If you could find Amish ANYTHING there (bakers, furniture makers, whatever), they could probably point you to good cabinet makers that aren't quite so far away as Pennsylvania.

Hi Sandy,

I didn't know that the Harborview came in a one faucet, deck mounted version. I will say that I wish I had a sprayer even though I have the two gooseneck faucets. Because I don't have a sprayer, I have to use a pitcher or pot of water to rinse the sink at times after I scrub it good. The faucets don't hit the whole sink. I think that's how it is with any sink that doesn't have a sprayer. So I guess what I'm saying is if you have one deck mounted faucet for the Harborview, I'd be sure to find a faucet with a sprayer!

I like having the two faucets because the sink is so big. I keep the wooden drainer on one side most of the time. With the drainboard in place on one side, the faucet being used is still centered with the side of the sink in use. If I had a single center faucet it wouldn't be so convenient to have the drainboard to one side. Does that make sense? Anyway, if you have a faucet with a sprayer you should be okay.

Wow! I have enjoyed this thread more than any other I've read lately on the GW kitchen forum.

Many thanks to those of you who sent photos of your lovely, authentic large vintage sinks! I only wish I had a kitchen large enough to hold one! They remind me of my grandparent's house and also my aunt and uncle's old farmhouse (on a real farm). Visiting them on the farm every summer and playing in the countryside with my cousins was one of the most precious memories from my childhood. Taking turns riding "Old Paint" (a gentle old horse) and the wonderful smells of my mother and my aunts cooking and canning in that big old kitchen with that old sink and the large vintage stove (probably from the 40s as anything much earlier would not have had electricity or gas in that rural area.)

While in college, I rented an old victorian house with a friend that had been converted into about 4 apartments. The kitchen was large, with a huge pantry and three tall windows that let in tons of light. There was never really a lack of "counter" space to dry dishes, prepare meals, etc., with the integrated drain boards and the large worktable there. And the existing free standing cupboards were sufficient for my dishes, pots and pans, etc. I remember thinking it had so much more character than the 50s ranch house I grew up in.

And I'd still feel this way, though even more so.

Sandy, and everyone who has encouraged her to follow her heart, I hope you find a way to create your kitchen! I'm so sick and tired of contractors, home centers, magazine writers, etc., who all act like you are NUTS if you don't want a "standard" new kitchen when remodeling: new cabinets (often made in China), granite countertops, etc... It can make the process so difficult... It's as if they really can't hear what you are saying when you veer from the "accepted," and will then proceed to tell YOU what's best for YOUR kitchen. As if it's more important to be able to market your house when you sell it than enjoy it in the here and now!

Anyway, good luck to all of you and stick to your guns!