Not so weird. Our GC did not use a contract either. He was a friend, and we had no doubts about his qualifications or fairness.

We did have a written bid. And had discussed how changes and unexpected items would be handled. And our project WAS a big project with architect, engineer, permits, and inspections.

Very good outcome, and we used him again for an addition a couple of years later.

I think that if this is a small business guy who is on-site every day and doing much of the work himself, that this isn't necessarily a problem.

We did pay in stages, so he could buy materials and pay his subs. This essentially means that the "profit" for the GC on the job is the final payment.

I would check and see if there are any red flags listed anywhere about your guy, and if you only hear good things, then I think you have to trust your own instincts.

My former GC's bids were written like a contract where you and he both signed off on it. It didn't contain a lot of legalese, but enough that I could have held him to something legally if necessary.

Not ever having a done a kitchen before, I think not having a contract would make me nervous. Someone's word is as good as a rock if anything goes wrong. I don't think the no-contract method is the norm. At least not where I live.

A written bid is kinda a contract when you both sign off on it.

I sure would not work without something written down unless I got to pay after everything was finished. :)

Even with contracts, you get enough problems with a good honest contractor. And remember, "contractor" does have "contract" as its root.

Get SOMETHING in writing that details the job and the price. Call it whatever he's comfortable with.

We just had the same situation this past week. We're getting a small deck and new stairs put on the front of our house. We found a real old style craftsman to do them. Have heard nothing but praise about him from everyone who he's worked for. He lives just down the street and all his neighbours seem to love him. He looked at us sheepishly when we asked for a contract and said he'd never worked with a contract before. We were shocked. This isn't a young guy and he's been in construction and cabinet making his whole life.

We solved the problem by writing up the terms very informally, but signed by all parties. My husband comes from a family of lawyers and we would the laughing stock of the family if we didn't get a contract of some sort. After we wrote it up, we all joked about it and told him we'd probably converted him and now he'd have to hire a lawyer to draw up formal contracts for him.

Well, I do have an excel spreadsheet with all the costs (including labor) meticulously laid out. And I have the plans in 3-D.

I have checked him out on the county website and he has the necessary licensure, with no outstanding complaints.

I just remember in our last house, our neighbors wanted to build a deck like ours, and they gave a contractor several thousand dollars to buy the materials and do the work. Then he was killed in a car accident, and they never saw any of it again.

Just keep thinking a contract would protect BOTH of us, but don't want to poison the water. Or be a wimp.

Some people's word is their bond. Multimillion dollar buildings can be, and have been, built on a handshake and a number written on the back of an envelope. The main purpose of a contract is to make sure all parties are agreeing upon what they think they're agreeing on.

The one thing it sounds like you don't have is a schedule of payments. Write one up with your GC. Usually you divide the job into completed steps, and give a portion of the total as each step is completed. When you give a check to the contractor, have him sign off on your schedule, and/or have him give you a receipt. If you're giving a deposit for work or materials not yet installed/completed, mark it on the check and the schedule/receipt.

You can also write up a simple description of the work you expect to have done, go over it with him, and both sign copies. It doesn't have to be a fancy lawyer contract to be sufficient to give you peace of mind.

We didn't have a contract for our recent addition. They did a garage and a Victorian front porch and the rear stairs/entry and kitchen drywall for us. The quote my guy used was "we can either trust each other and do business or not." Well, he was a straight arrow. No unexpected costs. No problems with change orders. The only thing I wished I had had any kind of contract for was time frame. It took SIGNIFICANTLY longer to get the job done than we were told as an estimate and I wished they had had some incentive to get things done in a timely fashion.

For God's sake. Multimillion dollar buildings are absolutely not built on a handshake. Not in the US. Maybe in Dubai? Maybe in 1850? What effing bank is financing that deal?

Tell you what. Don't get a contract, if it makes you uncomfortable. Just make a contract with us: when he screws up your countertop, bags out halfway through the job, fails to install the sink the right way or whatever, then we won't have to hear about it or give you ((((hugs)))). Fair deal?

Really. After the largest financial crisis in US history enabled by people who never bothered to read what the hell they were signing on to, I view people who don't properly read and sign a contract before a major expenditure of money with nothing but pure unadulterated malice.

Marcolo, would you like to talk to my father? I didn't mean that they are financed on a handshake. Banks like their paperwork. But, yes, indeed, he, and other builders I know personally, have made exactly those deals with subs and trades. Lots of lovely buildings, built correctly, and standing firmly.

The fact is that very few residential contractors have a lot of capital. It doesn't matter much if it's a written contract or a verbal contract and a handshake. If he defaults you can pursue him to the furthest extent of the law, but even with the most ironclad, court tested, lawyer produced wonder of a written contract it's unlikely you'll be satisfied with the result. Most likely you'll have a stack of legal fees and a judgment which you can't collect on.

In truth, the honesty of the contractor is worth a lot more than a piece of paper. It's just the way it is.

Marcolo is perhaps a bit vehement. But as someone who trusted my GC (who had been recommended BTW by my colleagues at work...and they are no fools), and is winding up in a legal mess with him, I agree that you should have a contract, or at a minimum, something on paper, even if it is informal.

Since you aren't doing structural work, the opportunity for a major screwup is more limited, but I assume this is still a considerable expenditure for you.

And nice guy that he may be...you just don't know what the future will bring. In my case, for example, the GC had been in business with no complaints for 20 years. But the bad economy was dragging him down, and like a drowning man in a panic, he started pulling his rescuer down with him.
Illness, an accident, family problems...all kinds of things COULD derail this man's business...and you want some kind of protection.

We did our kitchen without a formal contract. We just had a written payment schedule with what would be accomplished before each installment was paid. It served the same purpose, and we had no problems.

The GC we used is very small-time, but he's honest (sometimes to a fault). As others have said, even if something beyond his control happened, and we were out one installment's worth of money, it's not like he had any assets we could have seized or anything.

He told us at the outset that, besides doing quality work, the two things he is most conscious of is keeping within the schedule and keeping within the budget, and he did both. He did keep meticulous records and had receipts for every penny he spent on materials for my job. He said he didn't like the practice of many GCs of charging clients a mark-up on materials. We paid what he paid, and if he got a contractor's discount, he passed that on to us.

He also said that, if anything ever went wrong with any work he had done, we had a lifetime (his lifetime) warranty on it. I kind of inwardly scoffed at that statement at the time. But, when lightning struck our house and knocked out some of the electrical work, he came and fixed both that and the wiring in other parts of the house that he had never previously touched, and he didn't charge us a dime.

Two other friends have since used him. One had no problems at all, and their job was much bigger than mine. The other has had some problems caused by one of his subs. The problems have not been fully resolved yet, but he is still working with her to resolve them.

plllog, absolutely a contractor's ethics and honesty are the most important things. But my jaw drops when I read about someone considering a kitchen reno without a contract of some sort.

I suggest the OP read through the pages and pages of posts here from crying homeowners seeking advice because no one is showing up to work, something is installed incorrectly, a sink or slab are broken, the boxes are mdf instead of plywood, the flooring immediately failed, a contractor suddenly demands more money for something, and on and on and on. What protection do any of these people have without any kind of contract? None.

Remember, the primary weapon a homeowner has is withholding payment. Do that without a contract, and you may very well be unable to get a tradesman's lien removed from your house.

A reno contract doesn't have to look like a contract, with thirty pages of whereases and parties of the first part. Small renovators don't have the legal staff to produce those. Often the contract is as simple as a plan and an itemized estimate with a signature line.

Plus, no matter how honest the contractor is, how is he possibly supposed to know all the specs for a months-long project? From memory? That works if your kitchen is exactly like the last five he did, but not if you want a tapmaster or counter height window or any of the thousand unusual ideas GW is famous for.

Again, I'd mention my case. It is true that having my written contract isn't helping me get the job done. But since I may well end up seeking restitution from the state home improvement commission guaranty fund, having it will help me do so. As it is, it'll be arduous to go through the lengthy process (18 months), but there's a very strong likelihood that I will be reimbursed. If I had an oral contract, there would be only the slimmest hope that the guarantee fund would pay up. As the state investigators have already told me "We've got hundreds of folks who don't have a roof over their heads. They get priority in our investigations over folks like you, who may be out a lot of money, but are safe and dry."

Marcolo, I'm not disagreeing with you on that. Also, it's a lot easier to stiff a homeowner than a reputable builder who can run you out of town with a phone call, but OP said Well, I do have an excel spreadsheet with all the costs (including labor) meticulously laid out. And I have the plans in 3D. Formalizing that into a demonstrable contract just takes printing it out and signing it. I just don't think that the lack of a prepared, formal contract is sufficient for rejecting a GC who may be otherwise the best choice.

One thing to check is whether the laws in your state *require* licensed home improvement contractors to have written contracts. Some do.

In my state, the law states that no home improvement job over $1000 can be entered into without something written down. Part of the contractor being licensed by the state is that he or she agrees to follow the state laws.

Call it a "contract" or call it a signed proposal, whatever. It's written on paper. (Or on the "nearest piece of toilet paper" as Judge Milian likes to say).

melissastar makes a good point: having the contract helps with the state home improvement guaranty fund. I believe that's why my state requires the contract if the job is over $1000 -- we also have such a fund.

I often wonder why some people think having something written on a piece of paper has to do with questioning integrity or honesty. I see having something written down and signed as simply making sure you both have the same "picture of success" in mind. The "meeting of the minds".

And sometimes it's actually the very *process* of writing it down that is the enlightening and most beneficial part! "Gosh, I didn't know you wanted me to do ABC. Good thing we took this moment to write it out, or I would have overlooked that!"

-Lee

"they gave a contractor several thousand dollars to buy the materials"

This should be a red flag for ANY project.

Anyone you want dog work should have adequate credit to NOT require material money up front unless the job is huge (and then it should have a contract anyway).

For new customers I use contracts.
I will not start work without the customer clearly understanding the risks involved.
When you start working on very old buildings there is often NO way to tell what you may find behind the wall or ceiling.
I want the customer to understand what they are getting into.

For many repeat customers I trust them and they trust me, and I have more than adequate resources and creidt to purchase materials.
They already understand the risks involved.

Once I had a customer who ran out of money part way through.

lauraxx have you mentioned yet what the basis of the understanding is to be? What he makes it clear he is being paid for.

What he is to be paid for, if he has made it clear, is the essence of the contractual understanding. Whether or not it is written is now irrelevant if he has made his basis clear.

Some contractors like to bring it all down to hours worked. You pay for their time on site. If this is the understanding that your friends have with the person, please say so. There are other kinds of understanding.

Another note about "the basis of the understanding" : I am surprised that nobody has mentioned this yet, neither in this thread or any other discussion in GW.

Not ever having a done a kitchen before, I think not having a contract would make me nervous.

Me too. I would be super leery of that. Not saying you need a ten-page contract in triplicate, at all, but here's what you absolutely do need: a set of plans (floorplan, cabinet sizes, services to be provided [painting, demo, whatever], etc.) and specifications (type of wood for cabs, what surface for counter, etc.), with a price (ideally it should be broken out: price for cabs, price for demo, etc.). And this document should have both your signatures on it.

I mean, how hard is that?

There's just no reason not to have that. You have to have drawn-up plans, obviously, and you have to have an agreed-upon price. So how hard is it to add a page that lists out in words what the plans actually mean (e.g., "Cherry cabinets with solid wood doors and furniture-grade plywood boxes and shelves," "1.5-inch granite counter with ogee edge," etc.)?

And totally apart from any legal issues--and there are bad potential legal issues there--having a document like this is super helpful because it forces you to think things through and thus prevents misunderstandings. You don't want to get to the day of cabinet installation and go, "Wait, are those particle-board cabinet boxes?" or whatever, and have him go, "Oh, but I thought that's what you wanted." It's far better to lay it all out up front and say "I want plywood boxes" right up front... and then perhaps, when he writes down what that will cost, you go "omigod! Ok, how about particle board?" Or whatever.

Remember, the primary weapon a homeowner has is withholding payment. Do that without a contract, and you may very well be unable to get a tradesman's lien removed from your house.

You said it, Marcolo.

I, too, would be wary to go without a contract. The contract for my kitchen remodel did not spell things out as much as I would have liked and only gave me a total price, rather than having the price broken down. But at least it DID spell out that the cabinet boxes were to be plywood, so that when the cabinets were delivered otherwise, I was able to insist on them being re-made. Had it not been in the contract, I could not have done so--even though I had told the KD several times that I did not want MDF or particle board cabinets.

i am in the middle of my first kitchen reno. am learning lots and from where i stand (50% done) i would say do not proceed without a contract. not that it will fix everything, there will still be glitches, but it does force both parties to really think through the scope, the terms, schedule, everything.

even having done all of that, we had one grey area in the scope on electrical. i would be a basket case without a contract. i have referenced it many times, for scope clarifications or to remind myself when milestone payments are due.

my scope sounds slighly larger in that it was a full gut but otherwise just a smallish 11x13 kitchen.

Lauraxx -- in this pair, it seems you are the one uncomfortable with not having a contract. As others have suggested, then (not meaning to sound nasty): you do it. Just print up your understanding of the work you've agreed to and ask the contractor to sign it. If he balks at that, seems uncomfortable or refuses, seems insulted or whatever -- well then you've got a situation to evaluate. If he has so many happy customers around with nary a contract in sight, perhaps he'll feel insulted. But you aren't asking for anything untoward. In the end he'll sort of have to make his peace with your "terms" and sign it (or negotiate misunderstandings first).

If he won't, that's a pretty illustrative situation to find yourself in. What would it be like if he wouldn't respond to your needs in the event of a problem? As a test-case, this non-problem should be telling.

Stick to your guns: if this situation makes you uncomfortable you have every right (with ample precedent) to want to alter it. Not for an instant does this imply you suspect there will be problems, that you harbor concerns about the GC, etc. It means you feel uncomfortable; it is your right to feel comfortable, and your GC likely is the very first to want to agree with that!

Well, I agree with a lot of what's been said here.

I do have the plans, I do have a very meticulous break down of materials and labor, and a bottom line.

I have looked on line, and have not found a "simple" contract I could just print out, although they are illustrative...one stipulated that the homeowner be given lein waivers prior to the final payment. That makes sense.

I don't want to poison the well, but it seems to me that a contract protects BOTH of us. You do this, I'll pay for that.

A sign contract protects both the contractor, and the home owner. Why does he, not use a contract, I, would want to know. And what if something went really wrong, and you ended up in court, and the judge said can I, see your contract? And you, would have to say the contractor, doesn't use them. A Tv judge says all the time to never have work done with out a contract. No matter how nice he, is get a signed contract.

Well, it does sound as if for whatever reason, the GC doesn't use a contract usually. So unless you have some specific stipulation you want to make in prose, I'm guessing the bulk of your 'content' is just contained in the pictures. Since he's not into the trappings, just ask him to sign the picture. It's a way of showing after-the-fact if necessary, what you'd agreed to together, and avoiding the legalese might help the GC feel more comfortable. Just guessing about his objections, of course. But just using drawings might be a way of honoring his spirit and your need.

"But just using drawings might be a way of honoring his spirit and your need."

Only if you have his signature on the drawings or another document showing he has seen them.

Contracts do cut both ways.
By defining what the work to be performed is they also define what it is NOT.

Once you have a contract expect ALL changes to be in writing as an addendum to the contract.

ditto aliris.

it will be hard for him to deny he based himself on the drawings if you have means to show he used the drawings. E.g.: you can have a witness or two ensuring that he used the drawings. You can put something into writing which goes to him = one way communication, confirmed he got it and used it.

Good luck with your article.

I would never start any construction project without a clearly written and signed off by both parties contract. This is a necessity and the absolute minimum to protect yourself. If the contractor for some strange reason is offended at your request for a standard written contract, then off to the next one.

OK, so I asked for a contract, and was told that he would right up a proposal. Not quite the same thing. I asked him to lay out a schedule of payments/work done, so I would be easier in my mind.

He seems OK with that.

My comments keep disappearing--this is the second time I've posted this!