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Gwebbers suggestions CAN'T happen, so now what?! Layout help

Posted by bluerdgddrs (bluerdgddrs@gmail.com) on
Thu, Jun 5, 14 at 13:54

I originally posted asking about what you would rather give up to make more space for kitchen. Well after some digging into our lovely 1978 home we can not do what everyone seemed to be suggesting. Floor joists not cooperating and finished drywalled basement is putting a end to my dream of completely relocating the kitchen. I will add a link to my previous post. So with all that being said I have to basically keep the same footprint. I went to Lowes and this is what the cabinet designer came up with, what do you think?

For those that are new we are a family of five, 12,18, 19.

Make pretty much everything from scratch

Canning

My youngest, dd, helps mumma in the kitchen-sons and husband not so much.

Full basement for storage, behind kitchen through opening is pantry, 1/2 bath, stairs to basement & garage.

Non formal entertaining only

Form follows function. I can make anything pretty.

Would love an island, trying to figure out how to incorporate one with seating at end out of the working part of kitchen.

Anything else is free range! Sometimes we want one thing but the house dictates another so it is what it is, now I'm asking you guys to help me make it the best that it can be :)

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Follow-Up Postings:

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RE: Gwebbers suggestions CAN'T happen, so now what?! Layout help

Here is the link, sorry don't know how to edit to include.

Here is a link that might be useful: Original post


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RE: Gwebbers suggestions CAN'T happen, so now what?! Layout help

What a shame!

What is the area behind the fridge that it's being recessed into?


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RE: Gwebbers suggestions CAN'T happen, so now what?! Layout help

Yes I was totally bummed :(. That is an open closet that is above the stairs that go to basement. You can see it on floorplan. There should be enough space for me to steal so I won't need counter depth. Any thoughts, she threw this together without much thought so I'm not sure how good it would be. I've been staring at it but thought I would ask the experts!


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RE: Gwebbers suggestions CAN'T happen, so now what?! Layout help

We used a layout very similar to that when we redid our kitchen. It has worked out very well for us. We also have an older house with a walk zone that goes right through the middle of the kitchen. The biggest difference is that instead of having a pantry wall surrounding the fridge, we have counter space and a prep sink next to the fridge. That gives us two prep zones on opposite sides of the room. We use them both all the time and it's a good way to fit more than one cook/prepper into a smallish kitchen. We have no island, but honestly I think it would just get in our way.

One other decision I made, which has turned out very well, was to move the big sink out from under the window. We shifted it to the left with the DW still on its left side, and that gave us a very large (for a house this size) span of counter space between the main sink and range. I do my prep, plating, and baking there. DH, who is mostly vegan, can do all his veggie prep on the fridge side of the room while I'm working between the big sink and the stove.

When I did our layout I decided to dedicate more space to work zones and less to pantry storage, but it's amazing how much we're able to store in an Ikea pantry pullout; so that hasn't been a problem for us (and it's still more storage, and much more easily accessed, than we had in the old kitchen). We also have 3 grocery stores and a farmers market nearby, so we don't buy in bulk (family of 4). You might prefer the pantry storage that's in your layout to the extra sink and prep space in ours, so I mention it really just as an idea for you.

We don't have any seating in our kitchen either. The DR is right next to the fridge (through a doorway). It would be nice to have seating in there, but if we had it I'd want it at a table that was out of my way, not at an island that was blocking my path between the fridge and big sink. Just my opinion of course! Good luck with your reno!


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RE: Gwebbers suggestions CAN'T happen, so now what?! Layout help

I didn't follow your entire thread previously, but I'm confused by the difference between the Lowes layout and the floorplan - since the latter seems to show a peninsula. If you can do one, I'd think that offers some advantages in terms of casual seating. Check out @about_to_get_dusty's kitchen, which is just beautiful; her layout seems similar to what's shown on the floorplan.

I should note that I don't think the Lowes plan is horrible. I have a small galley kitchen that is a main traffic path. We had no good options for improving it. After ages here I came up with a plan that widened it slightly and recessed the fridge into the adjacent laundry/utility room. My main run of cabinets has the sink and range and it's about the size of what you show (~14ft.) It's still not done, but wow it is such an improvement- it feels like I have the world's biggest kitchen. I know that's not true - it's still the size of some pantries I've seen here - but a well-laid out galley can be really great to work in.

Here is a link that might be useful: About_to_get_dusty's beautiful reveal


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RE: Gwebbers suggestions CAN'T happen, so now what?! Layout help

NC- thank you for letting me know that you have similar and it works for you :). Would you happen to have any pictures? Thanks again

Small-the peninsula is what the previous owner had. I don't mind the peninsula so much but the refrigerator when opened blocks anyone inside and I feel claustrophobic like I'm trapped so I was trying to make more than one exit. Thanks for pointing me to dustys kitchen, it is beautiful.

What do you think about eliminating the fridge wall and putting an island in? Would that make it any better? Then of course I have to find a place for the fridge! I want to LOVE my kitchen, not just be satisfied.


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RE: Gwebbers suggestions CAN'T happen, so now what?! Layout help

I too was unable, and in some cases unwilling, to incorporate some of the very good suggestions from GW-ers into my new kitchen plan. It is all about compromise, especially when remodeling an old house. Some of the suggestions I had gotten would have given me a better functioning kitchen, but would have compromised the look or function of adjoining spaces. We try our best, figure out what matters most to us, and move forward. My advice would be not to dwell on it too much after you make your decisions -- try not to second-guess yourself! My new kitchen will in many way end up looking a lot like your old kitchen. I recognize the flaws in advance, but am pretty excited that I will be getting something that functions better than what I had even though it may not be perfect. FWIW, I really like your new plan -- the stove is a bit far from the sink, and you don't seem to have a lot of counter on the right of the stove, but I can't seem to think of a good way to change those things. I don't think that these will compromise the function or your enjoyment.


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RE: Gwebbers suggestions CAN'T happen, so now what?! Layout help

Cstr- thank you and yes it is totally about compromise, isn't it? I'm curious as to what layout you had previously that would make you want to go to a traffic jam scenario? It wouldn't be so bad if the fridge wasn't where the peninsula is but when the fridge is open you're trapped :(


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RE: Gwebbers suggestions CAN'T happen, so now what?! Layout help

I don't understand how eliminating the fridge wall would allow you the space or the traffic flow to have an island -- or where you would put the fridge and pantry if you didn't have that wall.

If your issue is the fridge blocking the traffic path at the peninsula, a simpler solution would be to simply slide the fridge over and give more space for traffic. Have tall storage on either side. If you want more prep and work space near your range, try putting the sink on the peninsula (easy cleanup for the counter sitters) and having a full wall of work space. What a great space for prepping and baking with all that room and light coming in through the window!

ETA: Those boys -- the ones who tend to stand with the fridge door open, are reaching the ages where they will be gone more than standing there looking to graze and blocking the path. Once teen (young 20s?) boys are out of the picture, the fridge door shouldn't be such a big issue. I wouldn't base a whole kitchen reno on that. Another thing you could do is put a beverage or snack fridge/drawers at the end of the fridge wall (can be facing the other room) or on either end of the peninsula (where you have that cabinet?).

This post was edited by lascatx on Thu, Jun 5, 14 at 18:12


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RE: Gwebbers suggestions CAN'T happen, so now what?! Layout help

Lascatx- thanks for the complements on the windows I do have a lot of those! So you think the plan that I currently have with the peninsula is better than the new one? Keep the peninsula and rework fridge wall? Thanks again.


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RE: Gwebbers suggestions CAN'T happen, so now what?! Layout help

I think your current kitchen has a lot going for it and the layout is generally a good use of space.

Some ideas:

1. make full height storage wall on fridge wall, except for a countertop landing space beside the fridge
2. incorporate microwave into fridge wall storage
3. remove uppers around window to create more spacious feeling and allow natural light to flow (you'll have more storage on fridge wall to compensate)
4. configure laundry room to include shelving for pantry, canning supplies, less frequently used items
5. reconfigure the breakfast bar a bit (see below) to create more counter space, add a bit more storage, and to have the breakfast bar create a continuous line as seen from the family room

Redkev's recent reveal shows how nice it can be to have breathing space around the window.

Here is a link that might be useful: redkev's awesome kitchen


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RE: Gwebbers suggestions CAN'T happen, so now what?! Layout help

Bluerdgddrs, we will be getting a french-door counter-depth fridge, and the fridge will be offset a bit from the peninsula (towards the side leading out of the kitchen). I am sure that there will be the occasional traffic jam, but because my kitchen also contains a walkway, and because of the placement of the exterior windows in this and other rooms, there just isn't much of a better option. Every plan we came up with had some sort of negative associated with it! I want the counter, cabinet space, and extra seating that the peninsula will provide, so I am willing to deal with the occasional traffic issue. My husband and I always joke that there IS a solution to these problems -- a bulldozer!


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RE: Gwebbers suggestions CAN'T happen, so now what?! Layout help

Thanks Fiesty-so no cabinets on sink wall?

Wow, I am surprised at how many actually like my before layout with a few tweaks. My dh will surely be happy when I don't ask him to move windows, appliances, etc.

So concentrate on reworking fridge wall, getting rid of bulkheads, anything else?

Thanks again everybody!


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RE: Gwebbers suggestions CAN'T happen, so now what?! Layout help

Castr-I hear ya on the bulldozer! Maybe it's just the quality of this kitchen or lack there of, that has me longing for something better. I just didn't want to be one of those people that put lipstick on a pig hoping to get something fantastic-function wise.


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RE: Gwebbers suggestions CAN'T happen, so now what?! Layout help

Yes, I am recommending no cabinets on the sink wall. The uppers on either side of your window are blocking the view of the window from the family room, thus interrupting an important sightline. Also, in a compact hardworking kitchen it feels really different when you work at a counter without having uppers right "in your face". The counters on either side of your sink are "prime real estate" for prep work (sink/window/natural light) so I would de-prioritize wall storage there.

I'm just amazed at the difference having just removed my uppers - I really like the feeling of having "breathing room" in my small kitchen. You can visualize the difference looking at Redkev's kitchen - before and after shows with and without uppers in a similar layout to yours.

Beef up the storage on the fridge wall and in the laundry room to compensate if necessary. Also, you can extend the range wall uppers all way across and avoid having a corner cabinet there, which is nice.

In my case I am having storage issues (moving back into kitchen putting things away now), but I am problem-solving to make this work. My kitchen is smaller than yours and I'll be looking at creative options to stuff stuff that I don't need immediately on hand. That's why I suggested storage of infrequently used items on high shelves in your laundry room, for example.


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RE: Gwebbers suggestions CAN'T happen, so now what?! Layout help

Ok, I will see if I can draw something up on ikea software. I guess I just wanted something special and it just doesn't feel special to me right now. Hopefully with everything shiny and new it will eventually get that way:)


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RE: Gwebbers suggestions CAN'T happen, so now what?! Layout help

Sounds like you feel like you are settling. Can you make some notes about what displeases you about the current setup and the proposed new one besides the fridge? Did DH tell you what you could reasonably do?

I personally dislike working in the tight corner between the sink and stove. That is what I just changed in my kitchen. Were there a few things in the last plan you'd like to work in, like the open staircase and more stove space?


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RE: Gwebbers suggestions CAN'T happen, so now what?! Layout help

I still can work with changing windows, doors, opening staircase, etc. but it seems that everything is a trade off. If I go through all of that I would like to make it worth while if that makes sense? The lady at Lowes didn't seem to think that it would gain me anything?

I dislike the fridge location and there being one traffic lane through the space. Those are really the main sticking points, I don't need a huge kitchen I just need one that more than just me can work in and be happy. Oh and I would love it to be pretty-of course:)


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RE: Gwebbers suggestions CAN'T happen, so now what?! Layout help

Here's a crude mockup showing how the view from the family room could change quite a bit

- extend the peninsula across
- remove uppers on either side of the window
- relocate microwave
- remove blue ceiling accent
- add a couple of pretty pendants

Raising the uppers on the range wall, if possible, may also give a more spacious feeling.


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RE: Gwebbers suggestions CAN'T happen, so now what?! Layout help

Count me in the function over form group. I would dislike that kitchen layout as much as you seem to. I love SPACE - and I'm claustrophobic! My questions/suggestions are these, based on the fact that you 1) only do casual entertaining, 2) have kids who will be moving on in a few years, 3) have a living room separate from the family room and 4) know that everybody *always* packs into the kitchen.

I would move the kitchen forward into the existing family room. You have plenty of square footage there, so opening up the kitchen to that area would allow guests to be present "in the kitchen" without being underfoot.

"I still can work with changing windows, doors, opening staircase, etc. but it seems that everything is a trade off. If I go through all of that I would like to make it worth while if that makes sense?"

It makes plenty of sense! The "lady at Lowe's" isn't you and doesn't understand what's important to you. I would not mess with the staircase, but I sure would move the doorway to the LR back so you can push both kitchen walls forward. You'll have much more light, more room to organize a triangular working area with stove, fridge and sink. You need more that a one-butt (two at the most) kitchen. Think big; think space!

Hope that didn't rankle, but I think I have the same common sense of function as you do.


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RE: Gwebbers suggestions CAN'T happen, so now what?! Layout help

Fiesty- that does in deed look better! Ok so you've got me thinking that if I have to keep this layout it's not going to be he end of the world-that's a positive in my book:)

Tomato- so I can't extend completely into the family room but I could scoot everything down. Are you saying keep everything in same location just slide it toward family room or just extend the legs, KWIM?

This is the view coming toward kitchen, family room. Would it look odd to see the side of island or table?


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RE: Gwebbers suggestions CAN'T happen, so now what?! Layout help

How about something like this? It opens up your staircase, eliminates the short walls where the fridge was adds a short piece of wall on the laundry wall, and relocates all appliances. The banquette pulls into the family room space - refer to the picture Lavender posted in your previous thread. Or you could just have peninsula seating. You can also convert your closet into a recessed bar, but that may create a traffic issue with passageways. This eliminates the current kitchen window and adds one on each side of the range. You prep looking into the family room and out windows. The fridge wall can have a pantry or whatever storage suits you, but around the corner floor to ceiling narrow storage which is great for accessibility and efficiency. My only problem with this is the traveling from fridge to sink. Nothing is to scale, just some quick ideas.


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RE: Gwebbers suggestions CAN'T happen, so now what?! Layout help

Does your peninsula not have an overhang? If not, I would just add an overhang and (on the family room side) continue the peninsula treatment across the wall, keeping the peninsula cabinetry where it is.


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RE: Gwebbers suggestions CAN'T happen, so now what?! Layout help

Bbtrix- I like it, I like it a lot!

So where you have a banquette table there already is a pendant light there. The only thing that I can figure is that the previous owner must have had a breakfast table there so that would work out.

I already planned on doing that to the pantry area so that's excellent.

The only thing that I am wondering is if I will have enough storage this way. If I extend the leg of the range to that corner then I could get a little more storage I guess. That would also free up the bottleneck by the peninsula. Bonus :). Thanks for giving me more to contemplate ;)


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RE: Gwebbers suggestions CAN'T happen, so now what?! Layout help

I do not like the closed in feeling of my current layout with peninsula; it is the one thing I am the most excited about eliminating even though I have a spacious walkway with no pinch point.

I also eliminated storage cabs on the back wall to gain space for an island with seating which was a "must have if possible" for me. To make up for that lost storage, I ran shallow cabinets to create a built in buffet arrangement in the dining area. I see your windows in the family room nix that option. For me, I would keep the uppers for storage if I could get room for an island by eliminating the back wall storage cabs.

Do you have enough space from sink wall cabs to back wall for an island if the back cabs are gone? Could entrance to kitchen be moved down so the walkway was right next to the wall?


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RE: Gwebbers suggestions CAN'T happen, so now what?! Layout help

Ranton-yes the opening could be moved back some. Do you have pics of what you're thinking of doing? I would have probably around 12'7" or more to work with if we went that route.

There are so many conflicting opinions island vs peninsula it makes my head spin. I think I have read every article that was ever written on the subject.

I think I will have the designer at Lowes draw up another sketch with the island option and see what looks more functional. I would rather spend the time with her for free before I go to an actual KD $$$. Maybe if she is that good I won't even have to :)


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RE: Gwebbers suggestions CAN'T happen, so now what?! Layout help

Don't know if you saw that I edited my note above.

If you can remove the soffit, even on one or two walls, I would. The priorities, in order, would be sink wall, range wall and then fridge wall. It won't make as much difference on the fruidge wall, especially if you do tall storage there, but you might get added inches of storage. The range wall will let you get more height and impact from a vent hood, and if you take your cabinets up, everything will look taller. The hood will be a larger focal point. I think that taking down the soffit over the sink will do a lot to lighten that area. If you bake anything like I do, moving the sink tot he peninsula and using that outside wall for prep and baking will be delightful, I would think about doing the glass side and front cabinets like beekeepers wife did by her sink to let light in. While I love the IDEA of open shelves and just grabbing a bowl from the shelf, I think the flour and such -- plus dogs and general dust, would make keeping things clean more of a chore than a joy.

I think tweaking what you have can give you a lot more and not require as much work or money. I do like the idea of making your fridge wall a wall of tall storage and possibly including a micro over there if you use it more for reheating and snacking (or a drawer in the prep/range area if you use it in cooking and baking).


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RE: Gwebbers suggestions CAN'T happen, so now what?! Layout help

Lascatx- sorry I didn't see your edited post. Yes, soffit is going away, that I do know for a fact.

Moving the sink to the peninsula would not be difficult because the dw is already there. That would give me more space around the range as well which would be nice benefit. Would the peninsula have to be 4' deep then to avoid splashing? I guess that would depend if there is seating at counter height.

Yes, in deed, my fridge holders are only home for a short time as it is but it's only getting shorter by the minute so good point on that!

Have a daughter she's yours for life, have a son he's yours till he takes a wife :(

Thanks for the help :)

This post was edited by bluerdgddrs on Thu, Jun 5, 14 at 22:27


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RE: Gwebbers suggestions CAN'T happen, so now what?! Layout help

I have two in the same age range. One is a door holder/grazer.

I just reread your original post -- canning? that span of prep space would be great. Just make sure the path to the sink isn't too much for you. A potfiller would be nice for filling and if you wait until the pot has cooked down to dump it that is less of an issue.

If the 10 foot side of your kitchen is the width, you just don't have room for an island in a functional kitchen.


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RE: Gwebbers suggestions CAN'T happen, so now what?! Layout help

Lascatx- 12'7" is the width. 10' is the sink wall as it stands now.


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RE: Gwebbers suggestions CAN'T happen, so now what?! Layout help

Fiesty- sorry just saw your question above. No the peninsula does not overhang currently. We just have garage stools sitting there from a party we had and we use them everyday so they ended up staying.


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RE: Gwebbers suggestions CAN'T happen, so now what?! Layout help

It looks the other way in your drawings. Still, I say 13 feet is pushing it for an island and you don't even have that. Fourteen feet is better. An island needs room -- 2 feet of cabinets on either side, 3 feet of aisle is minimal and possibly not enough with fridge opening and room to move appliances in and out. You would probably also want wider where the aisle is a main traffic path like the one in front of your fridge wall. That's ten feet or more, not including counter overhangs or any extra aisle clearance. Once you account for counter overhangs, you have no more than 2 feet of width for an island. And that is with minimal clearances, assuming appliances can move in and out, be opened without an issue and the traffic isn't a problem. If you try to go with shallow cabinets on your back wall, where will you put the fridge? All the options would close up the kitchen more and result in much worse traffic issues.

You don't even have a full 13 feet. It's not like you can order 3/4 size everything and smoosh it in. Time to realize what you do have and make the best of it. I keep liking the idea of moving the sink and having that big prep/baking space. That will give you a lot of the function of an island without the traffic issues. Think about it.

And whether you extend that counter or not, consider using that small wall next to the sliders for a tall bookcase (the counter can still run across an be a fixed shelf at midlevel). It could even be done to give you a smart station (place for phones, chargers, etc.) as well as cookbooks. If you have a cabinet below, you could keep barbecue tools and outdoor plates, etc. there.


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RE: Gwebbers suggestions CAN'T happen, so now what?! Layout help

Lascatx-very good points. I think I've now given up on the island idea because I don't want an island just for the sake of having an island. I want and need function.

Now I am toying with the idea of either seating at the peninsula or having a banquette/table backing up to it. Something similar to one of these pictures?

Thanks again for all your help :)

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RE: Gwebbers suggestions CAN'T happen, so now what?! Layout help

@bluerdgddrs, you said earlier on this thread "I want to LOVE my kitchen, not just be satisfied." I get that - I spent so much time thinking about mine, and the cost of what we were going to do escalated beyond a low-budget facelift, and I wanted to be sure the outcome justified it all.

But I promise you, what will make you love your kitchen is the functional improvements of a layout that works for you and your family. Really!

You need to figure out what is the most important improvement for your needs - it sounds like a layout that eliminates claustrophobia is high on the list. I get that too - our remodel was all about squeezing a bit more elbow room out of a super high-traffic space. I might have even lost some counter space to get it. But that extra 12" is life-altering for me. You need to decide what will have that impact for you, and then all the other decisions flow from there.

Your space to me seems natural for a peninsula with some stools, just better configured than what you currently have. I've linked another awesome GW kitchen below with a layout similar to what @feisty68 suggests. There are lots of other great examples on this site; the key would be getting the dimensions right so that you don't feel constrained by kiddos starting at the fridge contents.

Alternatively, a banquette can be a great alternative - we had no choice but to go this route - but if you already have couches in your living and family rooms, it might feel a bit redundant. And if the banquette bumps up against a peninsula, it's probably more budget friendly to go with an overhang and stools.

Here is a link that might be useful: Ratrem's beautiful kitchen


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RE: Gwebbers suggestions CAN'T happen, so now what?! Layout help

Small- that is one beautiful kitchen! I'm convinced now on keeping the penisula. The way I see it is if I can either shift fridge towards middle of the wall and/or shift peninsula toward family room then I will have a space that I can definitely "love". Thanks for the push:)


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RE: Gwebbers suggestions CAN'T happen, so now what?! Layout help

Ratrem's kitchen is so beautiful and such a perfect inspiration for you bluerdgddrs!


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RE: Gwebbers suggestions CAN'T happen, so now what?! Layout help

Thanks, I completely agree. I don't ever remember the reveal. Also, Majras kitchen is similar as well. They are both stunning examples for anyone who thinks they "need" an island in order to have a beautiful kitchen! I wish I could email either of them but they don't have that as an option. I would love to find out the space they were working with.

Do you have an opinion as to banquette vs seating at the peninsula? It's a couple posts above.

Here is a link that might be useful: Majras gorgeous peninsula kitchen


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RE: Gwebbers suggestions CAN'T happen, so now what?! Layout help

Yes, kitchen islands are beautiful and functional, but they are space hogs! My space is too big for a galley, but too small for an island, so peninsula it is! How do people tend to gather in your kitchen? Do they like to be close to the action? If so, my preference would be for peninsula seating.


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RE: Gwebbers suggestions CAN'T happen, so now what?! Layout help

Cstr-this is the first time I have ever had a peninsula so it's all new to me. Usually my dd will be in the kitchen helping prep, set table, etc. I'm thinking that bar stool set-up will probably work the best for us then at least I know that our formal dining will get used.

Do you make a peninsula the same depth that you would an island? 3' or 4' deep?

I'm thinking if I can "decorate" it with posts or corbels or what have you then it will resemble a pretty island and not just the plain back of cabinetry. It will be noticeable from the side so I would like it to look nice from all directions.


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RE: Gwebbers suggestions CAN'T happen, so now what?! Layout help

My peninsula will be a little over 3 ft deep -- 26 inches for the cabinet and counter, and then around 14 inches for the overhang. We plan on finishing the back with panels and corbels. Drywall on the back always looks so unfinished to me.


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RE: Gwebbers suggestions CAN'T happen, so now what?! Layout help

Cstr- do you have a layout yet? I ask because it sounds like you have a lot of similarities in your kitchen.


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RE: Gwebbers suggestions CAN'T happen, so now what?! Layout help

Your peninsula should be cabinet depth + plus 12-15" overhang for counter seating. If you are using counter stools with "comfortable" seats, 15" is better so you can tuck the stool fully in.


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RE: Gwebbers suggestions CAN'T happen, so now what?! Layout help

Feisty-thanks for that info. I'm working on getting new drawings now :)


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RE: Gwebbers suggestions CAN'T happen, so now what?! Layout help

I don't know what your exact limitations are on remodeling...but would something like this work? Main fridge at end of stair run, with under-counter fridge or fridge drawers next to range.

Large sink and dishwasher under equally large window...with prep sink on large island. Narrow, but tall pantry/dish storage on wall to stairs. Smaller island/work table with butcher block top. Banquette under windows, on other side of slider...with table coming off large island, like this :)

From Kitchen tables and vintage kitchens

Still room for built-ins by fireplace and chair in far corner and the banquette should fit under those windows. Just a few ideas...

From Kitchen plans

This post was edited by lavender_lass on Sat, Jun 7, 14 at 17:24


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RE: Gwebbers suggestions CAN'T happen, so now what?! Layout help

Lavender- man you have me spending my money don't you? Love the idea, matter of fact have thought of that myself but then I wonder if people would think it was odd to have the island away from the working part of the kitchen.

What does everybody think?

I do have room for the fridge there :)


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RE: Gwebbers suggestions CAN'T happen, so now what?! Layout help

It's always easier to spend someone else's money! LOL

Personally, I think it would be beautiful. I've seen a lot more of this on HGTV lately with kitchen remodels. It's easier than adding on a new space and it makes use of an existing room.

By bringing the fridge and prep sink out into the main area, it keeps the entertaining side separate from the work side. People can get their own drinks, help with prep or just sit and visit. Great if you have something in the oven for an hour and have dishes stacked around the clean up sink....but you still want to prep a salad or make drinks :)

Oh, and if this is your forever house...think about holiday meals with the grandkids. They can help and then sit at this table, while the adults use the dining room. That is one 'kiddie' table I would have liked using! I always got stuck with the little kids, at the card table...

This post was edited by lavender_lass on Sat, Jun 7, 14 at 19:16


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RE: Gwebbers suggestions CAN'T happen, so now what?! Layout help

Lavender- you just made me chuckle out loud thinking back to being sent to the card table! I guess I have more blue tape in my future! I am so glad to do all this before actually changing anything in "real life".

Thanks again

I'm guessing by how you "talk" you must be from the same era as me-lots of the same memories ;)


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RE: Gwebbers suggestions CAN'T happen, so now what?! Layout help

I loved sitting at the kiddie card table getting to know my cousins, but also loved going to the men's table where they played pinnochle. Great memories. Which is why you need to make this space what you really want and need - don't settle. You have a large living and dining room. It would be a waste to cram your kitchen into that original small footprint when you have the real estate so close. It doesn't matter what others do, what is right for you? It would be a good idea if you put your dimensions in the Ikea planner so you can play with the possibilities and suggestions, then get your blue tape out. Planners help you to understand your space.

Do you have a budget in mind?


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RE: Gwebbers suggestions CAN'T happen, so now what?! Layout help

Oh my gosh...I do remember watching my parents play pinochle with their friends! LOL

I would love to have a big kitchen...and hopefully will in the not too distant future :)


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RE: Gwebbers suggestions CAN'T happen, so now what?! Layout help

What about watching them play euchre? That's definitely a Midwestern thing so some may not get it.

Yes bbtrix, that is definitely what I am trying to decide-do I just make it as pretty as can be or try to make it the best that it can be.

Budget-basically my budget will just be for materials as all the labor will be handled by us, so maybe $30-40. Is that reasonable? I don't even know how much cabinetry will be. We haven't lived up here in so long so prices may be higher now. We are in an area that can support it if we have to pay more but I don't see why it would be that crazy. That's another reason why I thought I would go to Lowes so I kind of have a baseline of prices.

What I really hoped to accomplish by posting this here is to get an idea of the possibilities before I go and pay money by the hour to a KD with no sense of direction. I don't mind them thinking up their own plan but I also would like to know how others see the space for free first. :)

You guys are a great help, thanks again!


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RE: Gwebbers suggestions CAN'T happen, so now what?! Layout help

I recommend IKEA cabinets for quality/price if you have some DIY skills. You can use the planner software on IKEA.com. Ikeafans.com is great for detailed device on designing and DIYing an IKEA kitchen. It's possible to do custom fronts and have any look you want - but it's all frameless. We are able to afford redoing the flooring ($5K) putting in granite counters ($4K), getting a decent hood (>$1K), Miele dishwasher (>$2K) etc. because we saved a lot on cabinetry. My neighbour spent a lot more on custom cabinetry, but her appliance, floor, counter choices were more budget. In the end I think my cabinets will look and function at least as well as hers :)


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RE: Gwebbers suggestions CAN'T happen, so now what?! Layout help

I could not agree more with feisty! Ikea will allow all the bells and whistles at a savings. My Ikea cabinets were nearly half my Lowes quote, and the Lowes only had one super-susan, one pullout, and few drawers. With Ikea, I have all the ideal cabinets I wanted, and the savings allowed for hardwood floors, walnut and marble countertops and my Kohler Stages and Karbon. I could not have gotten these niceties if I had gone with Lowes or a private designer. I got quotes from four separate entities and Ikea saved me a bundle. I live 350 miles from an Ikea and did it all online and via phone during a 20% off sale. Yes, it takes manual labor and you have that. Remember, you had no clue mine was Ikea until I mentioned it. Even better, do custom fronts. And whether you go with Ikea or not, you should put the plans suggested above that you are considering into the planner to better visualize the outcomes and easily move things around. You don't just want to rely on all of our opinions, but plug the plans in and envision how you would use that space every day, now and in the future. Talk to your husband about the feasibility before you start. Can water lines be run to the fridge and a prep sink in the family room? I also thought of the closet for the fridge location when I first asked about it, but didn't suggest it as it seemed you wanted to stay in the original footprint because of utilities. And I do not feel it is strange to have an island in the hearth room if you are indeed wanting to make it all a large kitchen. After all, how many family rooms/sitting areas do you need? You have the living room next door and a rec room downstairs, so it makes sense to make this space the working and entertaining kitchen it can be. Again, ask DH what is NOT doable in Lavenders plan, or any of the others before time is spent going forward.


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RE: Gwebbers suggestions CAN'T happen, so now what?! Layout help

The fridge is just pivoting around the corner from where the KD had it...I don't think that will be too much of a problem. As for the prep sink, it's just a sink. Moving the range and possibly gas lines would obviously be a bigger problem.

Also...ask your husband, wouldn't this work much better for summer parties? Moving back and forth from patio to island, rather than squeezing around a too small peninsula.

If you had to stay small due to budget constraints that's one thing, but if you can make the space what you really want...I say go for it! :)


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RE: Gwebbers suggestions CAN'T happen, so now what?! Layout help

Fiesty,Bbtrix,Lavender- I can't thank you guys enough for sticking with me through all of this, you guys are the best!

Ok, so DH says fridge is no big deal because it already has water anyways. Then, I can run the water from there to prep sink/ main sink in island because it's so close.

Range can be moved because gas is easy to move and outside wall would be better for ventilation anyways.

I'm getting out my graph paper as we speak. Then I will take what I got there and put it into ikea. You guys might find this hard to believe but I have never stepped foot into an IKEA so the only thing that I know about the place is people seem to rave about it!

I would rather draw up a plan shooting for the moon and see what we're looking at for everything $ wise rather than accept defeat without trying.

I'll be back..........


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RE: Gwebbers suggestions CAN'T happen, so now what?! Layout help

The layout you're looking to do is very similar to my layout and I love it. It's super efficient, much roomier than you'd imagine and can accommodate a couple of cooks. This picture is before the backsplash, which goes in week after next. We've had this same layout for 13 years and changed nothing about it other than the depth of the overhang in our remodel. This kitchen works. Please excuse the lousy photo!


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RE: Gwebbers suggestions CAN'T happen, so now what?! Layout help

Christina-gorgeous kitchen! Some questions for you, if you don't mind.

Do you anticipate using the area under the opening as a baking counter?

Do you have pictures of that area?

What are the dimensions of your space?

How deep is your overhang on the peninsula?

There is something to be said for someone who keeps the same layout for that many years, it must work :)


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RE: Gwebbers suggestions CAN'T happen, so now what?! Layout help

I'm happy to answer questions (and thanks, I'm really happy with how's it's looking!)

I bake a lot, I bake all our bread and I do other baking as well. That area by the KA mixer has a window above it. The Susan under the mixer holds canisters of flour, sugar and other baking stuff. I also have a narrow pullout with extracts, sanding sugars etc. I typically prepare doughs on that counter, then I transfer to the peninsula for kneading, rolling out, putting cookies on trays etc. I think because it's open to the eating area and family room and I like facing that for lengthier tasks.

My overhang is 12", 9" on the end where the phone is. It's plenty for us.

Here is a picture showing the area under the window. We have a corner sink because we wanted two long runs of counter space and also because with the dishwasher in the peninsula I'd lose the whole bank of drawers under the window if I put a sink there.

*editing to add: I do have a pantry so the only food in the kitchen is the baking supplies that I mentioned. That is what allowed me to have almost all glass uppers.

This post was edited by Christina222 on Sun, Jun 8, 14 at 19:54


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RE: Gwebbers suggestions CAN'T happen, so now what?! Layout help

You asked about dimensions. Here is my layout. Not that the 3" spice pullout is not shown on this layout, so the length under the window and the distance between the cooktop counter and the peninsula is actually 3" longer than what is shown here.

You can see a missing tile in the corner, that's set to be fixed. I loathe the floor, it came with the house, but replacing it wasn't in the budget.


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RE: Gwebbers suggestions CAN'T happen, so now what?! Layout help

Christina-Thank you for posting those. It always helps to actually see a space that's similar. I'm such a visual person that it sometimes makes it difficult to imagine what the finished product could look like.

Your kitchen is looking really great, counters are gorgeous! What are they?


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RE: Gwebbers suggestions CAN'T happen, so now what?! Layout help

While I love the photo Lavender Lass posted, the layout that follows strikes me as a mess to actually work with. Yes, the fridge out there would be nice for guests when you have parties, but it would be a pain the rest of the year and even then for the cook. Think about all the steps back and forth and around for each meal of the day, baking -- your canning. Seems that you would wind up with somewhat disjointed workspaces and a major traffic path in the middle of the "kitchen." It reminds me of a kitchen I thought was great and then wound up hating having to cook in. I don't think I would like it at all -- just think about how you work and how the rest of the family works -- or plays -- around you and be sure you think about function as well as fashion.


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RE: Gwebbers suggestions CAN'T happen, so now what?! Layout help

Lascatx- I'm thinking of stretching the wall that the sink is currently on. I would accomplish this by removing the sliding patio door and installing a single French door. This would gain me 5' of space, enough to either put fridge on that wall or possibly range. Then sink could go in island and then I think we would have better function.

I'm working on drawings multiple ways. If we go this route then we would also put dining table in here and maybe a couple of chairs. It then would function for how we really live. Thanks for the input, it all helps :)


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RE: Gwebbers suggestions CAN'T happen, so now what?! Layout help

Glad to help Bluerdgddrs. My counters are iceberg quartzite. Previously I had black corian and while I liked them I've found the lighter counters make the room feel bigger and airier, which I didn't anticipate.


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RE: Gwebbers suggestions CAN'T happen, so now what?! Layout help

Waiting to see new plans! The slider converting to single door (with 5' more space) is intriguing...so where are the plans?? LOL


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RE: Gwebbers suggestions CAN'T happen, so now what?! Layout help

I was wondering if changing the sliders to a single door might be something you would consider. Most folks want to go larger with doors and windows. Well, glad you thought of it on your own. Look forward to seeing what you come up with.


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RE: Gwebbers suggestions CAN'T happen, so now what?! Layout help

Ok, I'm stuck!??! Here is the floorplan with the slider moved down to one single door. If I place the fridge where shown that will be what you see coming from front door. Ok so I panel the fridge, no biggie. What goes next to it? Wall ovens? If I get rid of window in old kitchen and put range centered on that wall is that then too far from sink on island? What goes on back wall then? Floor to ceiling dish hutch?

Is this gaining me anything? I love how it all feels like one contiguous space now. I could put dining in corner, a couple chairs in front of fireplace it would be wonderful, right? Then why do I have anxiety and I'm just sitting at my dining room table with some markers and graph paper?

The "old" patio door will be repurposed into our basement so we will have another walkout-bonus

The window that is currently in that space will now go on back wall of "new" dining. It matches what is currently there, so now I have 12' of windows-bonus.

So why the hesitation???

Help me!!!!! Anybody.......:)


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RE: Gwebbers suggestions CAN'T happen, so now what?! Layout help

I am sorry. I don't like it. The walkway through from the garage/pr/basement isn't wide enough to have seating at the island. You would have the sink facing into a blank wall instead of out a window or into the hearth room. There is lots of counter space, where the range is currently, which will be a clutter collector because all of the action is centered around that frig, sink, range triangle, which is now in a much tighter space than you have now for prepping. The sink-to-cooktop aisle isn't ample. The dw would open opposite the frig or the range? Etc...

Right now your frig jams the peninsula bc it opens into the end of it. Move the frig on it's current wall so it opens into the "u". Or extend the " size of your "u" a bit to limit that conflict. Or, like in bbtrix's plan above: put the frig where the range, shift the range to the sink wall, and put the sink in the peninsula. Or some combination of the above.

In your space the peninsula gives you what an "island" gives in many kitchens: a connection to an adjoining family space: casual seating and/or prep area. Right now it's just not optimally designed. But I would focus on making that connection with your hearth room. It's a lovely set up.


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RE: Gwebbers suggestions CAN'T happen, so now what?! Layout help

Jenn-that is exactly what I felt about it :(

If I leave everything as is it feels like two separate spaces which I am trying to make into one cohesive space. I've got out my tape, removed everything from the room and trying to envision it and it's so darn hard with the penisula in the way. I guess this is why KDs get paid what they do. They can see it with a fresh set of eyes and probably instantly have a "vision" which I seem to be lacking at the moment.

Thanks for your opinion, I respect each and every one.


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RE: Gwebbers suggestions CAN'T happen, so now what?! Layout help

Fwiw: I liked bbtrix's plan. I thought that was promising. Give it a test run. I did that. I tried every permutation I could think of. My DH said it often looked like I was dancing with myself in the kitchen. I have to have it in 3 d to really appreciate how something will feel and function.


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RE: Gwebbers suggestions CAN'T happen, so now what?! Layout help

Exactly I'll be "dancing" at 5 am :)


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RE: Gwebbers suggestions CAN'T happen, so now what?! Layout help

What if you went with the single french door and moved the peninsula down? (maybe that's what feisty's 6/5 17:14 plan was already suggesting?) It would accomplish melding the spaces some more. Have something pretty at the end that you'd see from the front door. Or have an interesting shape to the island? Maybe even something on the top of the peninsula too, against the wall.

I have to admit, though I've read every post on here, I didn't reflect whether this would accomplish everything you want. But I figure it's worth throwing out here.


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RE: Gwebbers suggestions CAN'T happen, so now what?! Layout help

Cal-I appreciate every opinion and suggestion.

I'm wondering that if I do scoot the peninsula down will my work triangle be too far apart-keeping everything where it is currently located?

Is there a number of feet that is too far?

Thanks!


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RE: Gwebbers suggestions CAN'T happen, so now what?! Layout help

My vote is for bbtrix's plan but with the table entirely separate and chairs at the fireplace. I also have a small U-shaped kitchen. My peninsula is 45" wide with counter stools on the family room side. The sink is in the peninsula. I love how this placement keeps me a part of the action, or I can look out the windows. That wide counter has been a huge help. I cook a lot and can push things further back on the counter and then bring them forward as they are needed. I promise, you will love your kitchen. If you need more storage, cabinets could be built in below rather than have the counter stools.


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RE: Gwebbers suggestions CAN'T happen, so now what?! Layout help

Have you played with this idea? The sink could be in the corner like the one above, but I tried moving the cooktop over because you said windows could change and I've seen a cooktop and hood flanked by windows and liked the idea. That would leave your baking and canning work area on the wall where the cooktop is now. That works if you put a wall oven or double ovens on the wall by the fridge, and if you really want to amp it up, you could add a prep sink along that wall. (gives you an added work zone or two triangles if you want to look at it that way)

I'm not sure about the idea of opening up the basement stairs. When stairs going up are open at the bottom, it lends light and a sense of lift. Seems like opening up stairs going down along just one wall like that would be like looking into a hole and not really add anything to the kitchen or the stairwell. You lose too much in the kitchen for me. Do you want to actually be able to look down or is it more the idea of having more light in the stairwell? If the later, maybe you could open up the family room end -- physically open or put a large glass window or art glass piece there.

Oh, that yellow spot -- I would put in a spot for cookbooks. For me, it would be floor to ceiling, but you might do a combination or even go for a "communication station" phone, chargers, note spot, family calendar or whatever your family needs, Doesn't have to be divided, especially above the counter. If you thought about the idea of glass sided cabinets at all, nix that idea and put any shelves, drawers or such below the counter only.


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RE: Gwebbers suggestions CAN'T happen, so now what?! Layout help

I think Nkba recommends a max length of 9' for leg of work triangle, total of 3 sides less than 26'. And a min of 4' for ea leg.... Starcraftcustom building used to have the Nkba guidelines illustrated on their website.

What works also depends on what space will allow. Of course, I would always mock it up too, to feel the space.


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RE: Gwebbers suggestions CAN'T happen, so now what?! Layout help

Texas-if your sink is in the peninsula, do you find that you miss the big expanse of countertop with nothing on it? I have had numerous people post that they love this set-up in their own kitchens so it must work. Thanks for confirming again.

Lascatx-thanks for drawing that up. That yellow spot is where we plug in our phones now and I hate having that stuff on the counter so great idea!

Can wall ovens be next to fridge or do they need to be separated?

I've always thought that it looks so pretty with the cooktop flanked by two windows, plus I'm not moving too far so that's a plus.

I get what your saying about the dark hole in the basement stairwell. I love the idea of opening up the family room end-no loss of cabinets and light-double bonus :)

Jennifer- thanks for the site info, I can't read enough lately.

I guess probably my major hangup is going through all the work to remodel the kitchen and not getting a "new" kitchen, if you know what I mean. It's just a thing in my head that I guess I got to get over. I trust everyone here and if you guys are saying that it will work great then I believe you. I can't see the forest for the trees anymore.

Thanks again everybody!


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RE: Gwebbers suggestions CAN'T happen, so now what?! Layout help

I wouldn't want the sink on the peninsula. When you're entertaining or even just feeding the family you don't spend that much time working at the sink. I'd rather have a nice stretch of working and serving counter that I can stand at with my friends on the other side and cook and talk together.


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RE: Gwebbers suggestions CAN'T happen, so now what?! Layout help

Christina, I like the sink where I can talk to people more during clean up that cooking or serving, but the point of having an expanse for serving and such is well taken. I tried to put the sink in the corner and I couldn't cut and paste that way, but either that or flipping the clean up to what is now the range wall and having just a bar/prep sink on the peninsula side could give a great work space when needed and be the serving area when entertaining. It's just a matter of moving those things around until you have the right fit for the way you work and live.

Blue -- my kitchen was the same footprint, but we moved a couple of key things and wound up with much better function -- and it looks all new and updated. You Will have a NEW kitchen. You don't have to knock down walls to make it different.


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RE: Gwebbers suggestions CAN'T happen, so now what?! Layout help

Christina-good point, thanks
Lascatx- understood. Thank you for that

I am at Lowes right now and she is doing a couple different variations for me so I will post in a little bit :). Fingers crossed.......


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RE: Gwebbers suggestions CAN'T happen, so now what?! Layout help

"If I leave everything as is it feels like two separate spaces which I am trying to make into one cohesive space. I've got out my tape, removed everything from the room and trying to envision it and it's so darn hard with the penisula in the way. I guess this is why KDs get paid what they do. They can see it with a fresh set of eyes and probably instantly have a "vision" which I seem to be lacking at the moment. "

That's why I recommend using rendering software yourself to draw up the many possible variations in room and kitchen configuration. It's hard to imagine, but once you see a rendering you can really get the "feel" of how a totally altered space would feel. I used the one on ikea to visualize how replacing walls with an island would feel - it allowed me to look at the space from every angle with a totally new room layout that affected multiple rooms.


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RE: Gwebbers suggestions CAN'T happen, so now what?! Layout help

Feisty, I agree about the ikea planner. It really helps to see the room 3 d, and to manipulate the view. I also mocked up options in the kitchen so we could see how we moved in the space. I tried every option I could think of! In the end, we did not make many drastic changes.bBut, the impact of all of our changes were dramatic.


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RE: Gwebbers suggestions CAN'T happen, so now what?! Layout help

Fiesty-totally agree about the "feeling" that different layouts give.

Jennifer-seeing it in 3d definitely made a difference.

So here is the latest. This is the best layout that we collectively came up with. This is the only one that made the whole space feel like it was one cohesive home. Please tell me what you think...be honest I can take it :)

I did have her do a peninsula layout just like what was suggested and it was ALOT more for a less aesthetic appeal and function.

So their we go let's hear it :)

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RE: Gwebbers suggestions CAN'T happen, so now what?! Layout help

Comments in no particular order.

1. Do you feel like the side of the island where the two stools are would be quite trafficky? If so, seating on that side may not feel relaxing.

2. Is serving space a priority? If so, the island plan only provides the small end of the island as serving space to the dining room. You wouldn't be able to lay out a lot of drinks/food with the island configuration.

3. The island plan does make the kitchen feel more open to the dining room.

4. The island plan cuts into your counter space to the left of the sink significantly.

5. The island plan creates a "boxed in" feeling along the sink wall. The fridge blocks natural light and sightlines between the dining room and sink.

6. The fridge located to the left of the sink is a convenient location and keeps all your major functions along the perimeter "L"

7. The rendering looking from the dining room doesn't show the island. I think it would be easier to make a focal point out of a peninsula than the narrow end of an island in your room layout.

I don't think there's a right answer here. I would want to open up the area around the window so the peninsula plan would work better for me, but it depends a lot on who is using the kitchen and how the space is being used in general.


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RE: Gwebbers suggestions CAN'T happen, so now what?! Layout help

Fiesty-responses in order

1. Usually there will only be dd in the kitchen doing homework while I cook so she would use end stool. Not much traffic so I think we would be ok with aisle width since no cabinetry in right side

2. I would use the whole island as buffet space

3. Yes it does make it feel more open

4. Understood, less counter space next to sink

5. The fridge probably will block light but there is a 51" window above sink and 21 feet of windows/doors in hearth room.

6. Yes perimeter functions seem to work best here.

7. I agree about peninsula being prettier but the one thing I can't seem to wrap my head around is one way in/out.

I absolutely appreciate every question and comment good or bad. It helps me to make the final decision. Thanks again :)


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RE: Gwebbers suggestions CAN'T happen, so now what?! Layout help

What is the sink-to-island aisle? Will you be able to walk around the open dw to get to the frig? How deep will the frig be with doors open into that aisle?

Where is the mw? Where is trash?

Does the island have 12" overhangs? Is that going to comfortable for your larger kids? Adults in the family?


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RE: Gwebbers suggestions CAN'T happen, so now what?! Layout help

Looking at your original house floorplan, it looks like this latest layout switches your dining room with your family room, right? It seems like the end result would leave you with a smaller family room - more like a den. Presumably you could use the living room as a family room. It seems like a lot depends on how that switch would work for your family.

Just one comment: in both your threads, it seems like you really really really want an island. And that you really really really don't want a peninsula. This layout seems like a good way to get what you want, as long as the overall tradeoffs to the way your family lives and relaxes and entertains also work.


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RE: Gwebbers suggestions CAN'T happen, so now what?! Layout help

Isn't your space 12 1/2' from window to basement wall? I don't think you have enough room for fridge to open, island, seating...and still have walkway to basement.

I know you don't plan to have stools right against the basement area...but I still don't think you have enough room.

I noticed that on some of the other plans...there seems to be an extra foot or two on this measurement. Make sure you draw this out on graph paper to get measurements exact.

And as suggested earlier...measure dishwasher opening, fridge opening, possibly walking past them, etc.

Honestly, I still like my plan more...but I'm sure there's another option out there that will fit in your space. Keep trying :)


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RE: Gwebbers suggestions CAN'T happen, so now what?! Layout help

Jennifer-the aisle is 42". Yes I should be able to stand there and have it opened at same time.

Not sure on fridge doors yet as we haven't finalized that decision.

Mw we don't use much so that will be out in pantry/utility room area along with trash. We keep a little trash can under the sink.

Yes she did make 12" overhangs which I realized so I would definitely want more-something to consider. It's still a work in progress. After being there for hours I was in a fog so clarity sits in after I got home. Thanks for the questions. All valid points.

Small- yes dining would now be in old family room. Living room will now be family room per se. Formal dining will either remain formal or sitting room/library? Still up in the air.

Yes it probably does seem that I want an island it is all I've ever had. I know that functional wise the peninsula works just as well as an island the only thing I don't get is the feeling of openness? There were a couple reveals just today though that have peninsulas that make me think that if this set up doesn't work that the peninsula is still a viable option. I think it may be that I have reached the limit of the Lowes cabinet designer. She was great but I think they only can do so much.

Do you think when talking to a real KD that I should mention any of these plans or just let them see what they come up with?

Thanks for the comments.


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RE: Gwebbers suggestions CAN'T happen, so now what?! Layout help

Lavender- thanks for checking back in, I gave all the measurements to her maybe I better double check-wouldn't that be great!

I showed her everyone's suggestions/plans and this is the best that she could do. It took 3 hrs to get this far just today. So 6 hrs total, I guess it's better to have went through this trial run rather than paying by the hour. I was hoping to at least get a rough plan but it seems like I've gotten no where.

Here is a picture of what she came up with for peninsula plan. I didn't like the way it was angled but I think she had tried to be creative. She even drew an island in the shape of a t which definitely wouldn't of worked.

So where should I go from here? Suggestions or do I just disappear into the dreaded page 2..... Thanks again :)


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RE: Gwebbers suggestions CAN'T happen, so now what?! Layout help

I like the island idea...I really do :)

It's just that if you have 3 1/2' on each side, 2' for your sink counter...that leaves 3' for the island, which seems kind of tight. It can be done, but once the stools are being used...I just don't know. And don't forget countertop overhang.

I know you REALLY like an island (LOL) but here's a quick idea with peninsula on other side. Did you want a desk? I can't remember, but little desk area could be other storage. Again, just a quick idea...have to go water plants, before it gets dark! I'll check back later tonight :)

From Kitchen plans

This post was edited by lavender_lass on Tue, Jun 10, 14 at 23:14


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RE: Gwebbers suggestions CAN'T happen, so now what?! Layout help

Yes, measure again. And again! We all want you to have the kitchen that works best for your family, the kitchen you will love. But, what "feels open" on paper may live very jammed. 12'7" is tight to have a good aisle for frig access, an island with seating, and a comfortable walkway. I think that's why we are encouraging you to think through what you really want.

Right now your frig is opposite a countertop. What is the aisle clearance? How does it work to get passed that frig person/counter? Also, put a big object 42" away from dw. Then open the dw. Can you walk/shimmy passed the dw door? Is it easy? Is that an easy path to use to get to your frig when you are cooking? Stick a stool 40" off of the frig wall. Have someone walk through. Just walk through the space. Create a 12" overhang and test it....

Looking at the island on paper, it seems to open the space to the hearth room, but it also introduces new obstacles to the kitchen too. It's just trade offs and what works for you and your family. Stay with it, get out the blue tape, and mock it up.


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RE: Gwebbers suggestions CAN'T happen, so now what?! Layout help

Lavender-you are a doll for handgun with me :). Have you ever thought of doing this for a living? I was just sitting here staring at the kitchen-yes my family all knows I have lost it now-and was thinking the same thing. Crazy. But then I thought that people would tell me that I now have traffic going directly through the work zones-not good.

The designer said that she didn't like the peninsula plan because of all the wasted empty space in the middle of the u? I asked her to scoot down the peninsula, change door to single and she said the triangle was too far apart? So, I am trying to love the idea of a peninsula I'm just not getting any "professional" help:(

When I went in there today I told her feel free to move anything, etc. and this is what I got. Basically all appliances in same location. If I'm not gaining anything I might as well keep the same layout and save some money. The cabinet quote was around 20, I didn't think that was too bad but it's a lot of money to be unsure.

I want an island-sure. I want it in a brand new build with 10' ceilings too. That's not why we bought his house and I have to keep reminding myself of that. Reality, sometimes it's a b****.


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RE: Gwebbers suggestions CAN'T happen, so now what?! Layout help

Jennifer-blue tape is my friend lately. I will do just what you suggested. Thank you very much.


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RE: Gwebbers suggestions CAN'T happen, so now what?! Layout help

First of all...your walkway is not going through your work space. Having a prep sink gives you two work areas. One by the fridge (try to fit the microwave in there somewhere) and one by the main sink/range. Your clean up area is fine as is, IMHO.

Picture someone walking through the kitchen to the basement. Will they be getting in the way of you prepping a salad at the peninsula? Getting veggies out of the fridge? Draining pasta from the range to the main sink? That's what you have to think about. And...almost all kitchens have traffic. You just want to minimize potential accidents.

Yes, some people will say they don't like the peninsula in that location. But I would ask...where would you travel more often, when you're working in the kitchen? To the formal dining room/library and bedrooms...or go over to the kitchen table/seating area?

I think the peninsula would give you a buffer from the dining area (like an island) but with two "L"s, you aren't walking around in a circle, as you would in a "U".

Of course...given my name (LOL) I will ALWAYS prefer L's to a U...but that's just me :)

This post was edited by lavender_lass on Wed, Jun 11, 14 at 0:41


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RE: Gwebbers suggestions CAN'T happen, so now what?! Layout help

Lavender-that's funny and very true. It's on my to do list with my tape. That closet is about two foot deep so that would open up that corner quite a bit. I'll try anything at this point :)


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RE: Gwebbers suggestions CAN'T happen, so now what?! Layout help

I'm not lovin' it, and I'm not really feeling that it fits the vision of a cohesive space. Open, yes, but it really feels kind of disjointed to me. It also leaves you with disjointed living space not connected with the kitchen -- kind of defeats the reason most folks want an open kitchen. What happened to the fridge wall -- did the door from the laundry area move? The wall? Did you lose space?

For our way of living, the double peninsula would be a traffic problem and a hopeless snarl when entertaining.

I went back to the first post here and without the benefit of having been in your house, much less living there, I think my emphasis would be on fixing the isolated dining room and the backyard access. Putting a door to the DR from that bit of hall at the top of the basement stairs would help. I'ts not ideal, but it might be the most you can do without relocating the stairs. The backyard access could be a single door to allow you seating at a peninsula or moved over to the far side of the room where the window is.


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RE: Gwebbers suggestions CAN'T happen, so now what?! Layout help

Lascatx-thanks for the honesty, it's appreciated.

Yes, she took the wall all the way over to basement stairs with no cabinets. So, yes I would lose storage-bummer.

Not having the family room right in the kitchen doesn't bother us so much because my dh can't stand it if he's trying to watch tv and I've got mixers going and such but that doesn't happen too often.

We also always gather in the kitchen when people are over so I need some sort of seating in/near the kitchen.

What if I did change the door to a single and put a little banquette in the far corner under the windows? Would that be silly? Too far away? I would love to make the whole space kitchen with maybe a couch/chair thrown in for good measure.

The formal dining can't be accessed from up by basement stairs because there isn't any wall space. Outside corner of the house.

What do you think about this? Seating sizes can change but does this leave too much open space in middle?

Thanks, as always.


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RE: Gwebbers suggestions CAN'T happen, so now what?! Layout help

Just looking at lowes proposed layout and she had the sink wall measurement wrong! So to all of you who said to measure, measure, measure. Totally right! My measurements above are correct. So anyone have an opinion on above layout?


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RE: Gwebbers suggestions CAN'T happen, so now what?! Layout help

Can't read the plan, it's too faint. Use a dark sharpie for walls/windows/doors. Then draw the plan in dark ink or use super dark-thick pencil lines. A good recommendation is to make a sketch of the immovables then photocopy the plan. Then you can draw in a bunch of different layouts without having to redraw/measure the room....


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RE: Gwebbers suggestions CAN'T happen, so now what?! Layout help

Here you go, thanks.


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RE: Gwebbers suggestions CAN'T happen, so now what?! Layout help

How will that exterior door open? Against the peninsula or into the eating area? Is it a little awkward either way, I think. ...

How far can you extend the kitchen before you need to replace the slider?


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RE: Gwebbers suggestions CAN'T happen, so now what?! Layout help

I only have 22" from the current slider to corner. I could put window where slider is now and put slider down at the end of the wall?


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RE: Gwebbers suggestions CAN'T happen, so now what?! Layout help

I thought the deck ended just beyond the slider. If you swapped you would add decking and remove the tree?


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RE: Gwebbers suggestions CAN'T happen, so now what?! Layout help

No wouldn't cut down the tree. There is probably enough room for a landing area with steps going down to lower patio by basement then we could do the screened in porch where stairs are now which is by the garage so we would really only need two walls for the screened in porch. Plus that gets stairway out of actual useable deck space so not a bad thing.


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RE: Gwebbers suggestions CAN'T happen, so now what?! Layout help

Quick question....exactly what is the problem with moving the kitchen into the family room?

You say floor joists are not cooperating...how exactly? Difficult to move range/gas lines? Can you run them outside and around? Water lines...again, how exactly?

Finished drywall...well, drywall can be taken down and replaced. Yes, it's going to be a few dollars, but is it just the ceiling and maybe top area of one or two walls...in one room?

I would carefully consider ALL the costs and then decide what you want to do. Can you move the kitchen? Is it an extra $5,000? More? Less?

If it were me and I was going to do a big remodel (anything over $5,000 is big for me LOL) then I would consider every aspect. Maybe you can't find the right layout...because the right layout is moving the kitchen and putting the banquette in that space. Just an idea :)

From Kitchen plans


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RE: Gwebbers suggestions CAN'T happen, so now what?! Layout help

Lavender-the basement under the family room is all finished drywall ceilings so no access from there. The walls are only 8' so with the door/window headers there is very little room to run anything through the walls. There is maybe one hope and that is when we remove the ceiling-trying to raise it-we could run everything up and over so we really won't know that until it comes time to rip everything apart. My dh said that if it gains us that much that he would "make" it happen. Because it won't be more $ it will just be our/employees time/labor. Well we will have the expense of materials but I think that is negligible at this point. I just figured rather than mess with things that didn't need to be messed with ie. finished basement, to just try to come up with something just as nice but I am thinking that nobody is digging it.

This is the bedroom under the family room. I hate to mess it up, it was just done last year by PO.

So do I try and come up with that plan but then we still have issues of being too close to fireplace I wish I could put the kitchen in the middle then everybody would be happy, that's why I initially thought of moving the door.

What do you think my gardenweb friends? I feel like by now I should be introducing myself...

Thanks,
Misty


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RE: Gwebbers suggestions CAN'T happen, so now what?! Layout help

Okay...let's try moving the slider down and putting the kitchen in the corner, leaving more room for the chairs and built-ins.

Also, if you did this, you could have a lower wall, behind the banquette. Not too low (think grandchildren tossing things down stairs LOL) but maybe a 6' wall to let some light into the staircase.

Just an idea :)

From Kitchen plans

This post was edited by lavender_lass on Wed, Jun 11, 14 at 16:13


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RE: Gwebbers suggestions CAN'T happen, so now what?! Layout help

Slider the other way, now that's something I've not thought of :). I will try and see if that will work. It could be a new option.


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RE: Gwebbers suggestions CAN'T happen, so now what?! Layout help

Hi, Misty!

I like having the banquette, because it's cute and cozy...but doesn't replace the formal dining room table. Maybe add some bookcases and make it a library/dining area? That would be nice :)


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RE: Gwebbers suggestions CAN'T happen, so now what?! Layout help

Are you sure that the soffit between the existing kitchen and family room doesn't contain a load-bearing beam? It looks like a pretty big expanse to not have some sort of an LVL or something holding up the weight of the roof. Just something to keep in mind when trying to open up the space...


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RE: Gwebbers suggestions CAN'T happen, so now what?! Layout help

Lavender-yes I do too - love banquettes. That would be nice

Cstr-yes it does contain an LVL. We own framing company so just another couple hours of payroll- one nice side benefit. We plan on changing roof and siding on this house. We are going to try to raise ceiling but we will see what dh finds when he gets up there but at a minimum there will be no soffits when done :)


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RE: Gwebbers suggestions CAN'T happen, so now what?! Layout help

If necessary...you could have an arch/opening that puts small side walls by banquette and slider. All open does sound good, though :)


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RE: Gwebbers suggestions CAN'T happen, so now what?! Layout help

Lavender-yes I think that with the ceiling all the same height then maybe it will make it seem more like one whole space. I don't know why they inset the kitchen two feet, it boggles my mind. I don't know if arches would fit it my 1977 ranch, she's pretty square ;)


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RE: Gwebbers suggestions CAN'T happen, so now what?! Layout help

Misty, the question Lavender brought up about why the swap cannot take place has popped in my head with every new suggestion that had a sink moving to a peninsula or island in the FR. I wondered why DH says it's ok to move there but not a few feet further - possibly he simply does not like or consider some of our plans doable? If that is the case, please let us know so we know which plans are absolutely out. We're just thinking of the skills and opportunity you have available and what the best possible outcome could be for you and your family, but ultimately you all have to define what that is.

I think LL's latest is the best yet, and you get wonderful counter space overlooking your land and the hearth. You could also have that double oven that you want. If he can't run the plumbing across the room you could put your DW in the island. The plumbing in this island is not really much further than the others he said were ok. The gas line may be a problem but that is why I asked in the previous thread to see what absolutely could not be done. Since he said it was ok to move the range from the current wall to the outside wall in the current kitchen, does that mean there is access in the basement below the current kitchen? Can you share the pros/cons that you and DH discuss about this last one?

I truly believe a variation on LL's latest space plan is the only feasible possibility with a real island, unless you just want a prep island. I can envision the traffic flow and great cooking and entertaining space. And those at the island can easily swivel around to talk with those in the comfy chairs at the hearth. It's not like you really want to have everyone in front of the hearth. It creates ambiance and is viewable from most vantage points in this plan. From here you have so many possibilities to expand to a fantastic multi-level outdoor space; screen porch, grill area and fire pit/hearth. LL's plan also gives you excellent access to the outdoors, LR, DR, and powder room without ever getting in the cooks way.


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RE: Gwebbers suggestions CAN'T happen, so now what?! Layout help

This is a terrific plan! Well done, LL!

Would you,could you switch to induction if the gas line isn't doable?


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RE: Gwebbers suggestions CAN'T happen, so now what?! Layout help

Bbtrix-the main reason why dh said could not is under the current utility room is the only spot in the basement that the ceiling is still exposed. When he looked as far as he could see it appears as if the floor joists turn to run from the fireplace to the patio door. He is not sure why that would be so without further ripping up of flooring/subfloor etc. If that is the case, we would have to either drill through them or better would run everything through the ceiling because the windows/doors take up most of the wall space so going through the headers creates a problem. With all that, I just tried to focus on satisfying myself with trying to keep it where it is. It's not that it can't be done luckily we have the means to do whatever it's just is it worth it if you know what I mean. I am starting to see that yes it definitely is.

LLs latest plan is what I marked out with my blue tape I believe, right? I will have to look back and see what was the issue but I think it was that I would be too close to the fireplace? I'm sorry for seeming so washy-washy but I'm an extremely frugal person so I was trying to make the best out of it but dh is telling me that do what we want for the long haul. His only request was not to have the "whole" space be kitchen, he would like to have a spot to sit and watch the weather channel with his coffee.

So here's what I'm going to do, let's try to make LLs plan work and I will take care of the technicals, well not me but sort of. It will take longer probably and living through reno is not fun but I will get to keep working kitchen until the bitter end so I'm going to focus on the positive :)

So what do "we" do now?

Move the door down to the old kitchen?

Jennifer-yes if I had to I would. Our house in FL is electric and I manage alright so I'm used to it too.

Thanks everybody :) you guys are the best :)))))


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RE: Gwebbers suggestions CAN'T happen, so now what?! Layout help

The new plan would be a great space! I hope it works out. Besides having such a nice open kitchen, you'd have the banquet in front of the door looking out. Very nice.

But inquiring minds really want to know, since you're introducing yourself, what your screen name means. :)

We all know we read names here and 'see' them as something else. I 'saw' your name as Blue Dog Doctors for quite a while. (I have a blue merle Australian Shepherd). I'm betting it's actually something to do with Blue Ridge though.


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RE: Gwebbers suggestions CAN'T happen, so now what?! Layout help

Cal- your pretty good. Blue ridge is our rd and we breed ddrs-East German Shepards :) some of my running partners :) they keep mumma safe.

Ok so what do you guys think about this. It's a play on LLs plan. What if I essentially did a one wall kitchen with a humongous island? Island as drawn is 54" x 10' but could go bigger and split counter material? That way I keep my 12' of windows on the back wall, I'm a light lover, but did all cabinetry on range wall? What do you think? Not enough storage? Lacking counter space? Tell me please, I feel like maybe were on to something.

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RE: Gwebbers suggestions CAN'T happen, so now what?! Layout help

One thing about flipping the kitchen over to the other side -- if you ever use the formal dining room, you will have better access.

There is a short section of wall between the laundry area and the DR right at the top of the basement stairs -- before you get tot he window on the exterior wall. It isn't ideal for DR access, but it would be something. That's what I was referencing above.

For someone who has the ability to deal with load-bearing walls, beams and all these other issues and just say it's a couple more hours labor, I'd not let a drywall ceiling in the basement get in the way of doing what you really want to do. Am I missing something?

Finally, I would suggest that you poke a couple of holes if needed to verify what is located where. I'd rather live with a few small holes than deal with the "woops -- not what we thought" headaches, delays and expenses. We did a few in our ceiling so we could verify our venting plans.


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RE: Gwebbers suggestions CAN'T happen, so now what?! Layout help

Lascatx-not missing anything it's just another mess we'd have to live with but it's my sons room so he'll be leaving in the fall for college so maybe then would be the best time to destroy his room. I just am trying to keep the projects contained because before you know it scope creep will have me telling dh to change everything. But yes, I definitely will poke around and see what's where and hopefully we will be pleasantly surprised :)

Any opinions on new layout?


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RE: Gwebbers suggestions CAN'T happen, so now what?! Layout help

Sorry, it's too blurry. Can't read it.


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RE: Gwebbers suggestions CAN'T happen, so now what?! Layout help

Better?


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RE: Gwebbers suggestions CAN'T happen, so now what?! Layout help

I'd run the other way -- with base cabinets only under the windows, tall storage across the back. Cooktop could work in there -- on the tall wall or possibly even under your windows. You might be able to vent directly out the back of the vent to the outside if the windows are high enough. I've also seen vent hoods in front of windows a few times -- or change the center windows?

My reason for wanting to turn everything is that you have two main views -- the fireplace and the deck and backyard. The way you have it drawn would block one and have your back to the other most of the time. I'd rather have the views to both sides.

This post was edited by lascatx on Thu, Jun 12, 14 at 12:11


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RE: Gwebbers suggestions CAN'T happen, so now what?! Layout help

Easier to read, but would still be much easier to put your dimensions into the Ikea planner. Then you can save as many different configurations that you want and see the 3D and all angles. Many of us have suggested this as a way for you to visualize your space. It will be much more effective than the graph paper the way you present it.

This plan gives you your island but not good contiguous counter space that I thought you wanted for canning, etc. Where would your staples be stored? All the way in the mud room? This plan does not give you enough storage.

I'm hearing you say between the lines that you really do not want to change structure. I do understand that, but again, please define what you want to accomplish. I think you need to rework your priority list and what you'd prefer to leave in tact.

I am nearing the end of a gut remodel, raising and vaulting the ceiling, taking down load bearing walls, trying to utilize our small space as best we could while being without a kitchen for 8 months. My DH has been a commercial contractor all his life and owns his own business. That does not mean anything goes. Labor is hugely expensive. We are union and always pay prevailing wage and you understand the associated costs. So, that being said, it is not practical to say anything goes. It all has a cost. But that also means you can look at this in a different light since you and DH know the other side of construction and have contacts, and if things are planned out well, your crew can rough things in quickly for you. Use those insights to narrow down what is really feasible for your wants, needs, and budget. We decided to be extremely frugal and have done all labor ourselves except drywall, some electric, and a failed marble install. I only mention this because I understand where you're coming from, seeing all the potential out there from other GWers and knowing the potential of your space. But there are limitations.

I really think you need to revisit your priority list and what you do not want to touch and build from there, and have some alone time with the Ikea planner. ;)


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RE: Gwebbers suggestions CAN'T happen, so now what?! Layout help

Bbtrix-I wish ikea planner would play nice but I can't get it to work on any iPad, MacBook ion our house. It keeps telling me browser not supported so I update and still nothing but I will get out my old desktop and see if I get anywhere.

Yes, of course, there are limitations I'm not a spendy kind of girl but I will do whatever it takes to make it right so we just need to figure out what that is for us-point taken.

Lascatx-good point about views. I thought with island facing fp and most time spent prepping I would have a nice view, another thing to consider.

I appreciate all of the help I have received and will check back in after i speak with the experts and have a firm grip on what is going where then maybe I can get assistance with the final details.

Once again, thank you.


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RE: Gwebbers suggestions CAN'T happen, so now what?! Layout help

Really liking latest plan....but elephant in the room is the fireplace. How about taking it out/closing it up in this room. Makes planning your dream kitchen so much easier.


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RE: Gwebbers suggestions CAN'T happen, so now what?! Layout help

Thanks Maggie, if the kitchen ends up being in this room I would rather work with the fireplace than remove. I would like it to be a positive feature not a negative one. I don't need that big of kitchen to where I would have to remove I hope :)


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RE: Gwebbers suggestions CAN'T happen, so now what?! Layout help

I wouldn't take out the fireplace - you have plenty of room to work with and enough to still have a sitting area -- at least a coffee nook by the fireplace even with the kitchen over on that side. Depending on how much you want to move things around the dining table could even go by the fireplace and the reading/sitting area by the deck. If the lighting is flexible, you could even change that seasonally. A fireplace adds warmth and charm to a room. They add value to a house. You are not in a situation where the room is just too small to have a fireplace and still live in the room. If anything, I would make sure the fireplace is an important part of your thought process and planning -- not an afterthought. It does seem to be an afterthought in some of these ideas, and that can make it awkward.

My suggestion: put down the pencil and paper, the markers and even the blue tape for a day or two. Stop drawing. Take some time to think about what you really need, both now and over the next 10 years or more.

Aren't your boys about to be taking off or at least not home more than they are home (if not already)? If not, I would think losing living space would not be good because there would be a greater demand for separate living spaces for kids and adults. And that daughter of yours is not likely to be doing homework at the kitchen counter much longer. I'm sure you went through this with your boys to at least some degree, so you should understand when I say that your daughter is about to start thinking your are the dumbest, most unreasonable person on the planet (at least some of the time) and want to spend her time in her room, talking to her friends, experimenting with hair, nails and makeup, etc. What I'm trying to get at is that you need to make sure you think forward ten years and plan for those rather than the last ten years. I don't mean plan an empty-nester kitchen because they are still around and in 10 years time may be bringing spouses and grandbabies around. Or you could decide this isn't where you want to be when daughter goes off to college and you start thinking about resale in 5 years. Do you host extended family or teen groups now? Just meals or other activities?

You still want a functional and flexible space. I'm just wondering if you are giving up too much living space just for the sake of having an island. I don't see that having an island is gaining that much for all that you have to give up to get it. You're not gaining function. Most of what you gain is aisles. That doesn't work for me. I want breathing room, but I want function and usable space -- in the kitchen and in my living spaces.

My suggestion would be to put down the pencil, pens and paper and walk away for at least a day or two. Think about what you need and use now and how it is likely to change. After you think a bit, pick up the pencil, resist the urge to sketch layouts and just list your priorities, in order, for your kitchen and your home as a whole. What is it that you must have and what would be nice but not essential. What is just a dream? Then keep that list in mind when you start to consider your layout options.

To me, it sounds like the island is a would like or a dream, but not a must have -- but it seems to be driving all the options. The island seems to play into your desire to have more than one traffic path, but may not be essential to it. I keep wondering if you might have an option to rework the basement stairs and open up the DR to the kitchen and give yourself more traffic options. I can't tell that from what you've posted, and for many people it would be cost prohibitive, but for you, it might not be that frightening and it might be easier than moving your kitchen across the way, tearing up a basement bedroom you are happy with, etc.

Just thinking out loud hear, and in between several interruptions at that. I hope you get some of what I'm trying to get at. Either way, keep at it. This is the most important part of a reno -- thinking, planning, researching, analyzing and thinking some more. It costs the least and will gain you the most in the long run. Look forward to seeing what you come up with.


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RE: Gwebbers suggestions CAN'T happen, so now what?! Layout help

Lascatx-awe you made me tear up :(. I completely understand about the kids. Our daughter already thinks that way I'm hoping it will eventually change back to the way it was. Our middle son just turned 18 today and will be heading off to school in the fall, our oldest son is 19 and is trade school so still at home but not much. So yes I completely understand as sad as it is, it's also exciting. My dh and I are young so we planned to have a 2nd life of travel when their gone so yes it won't be long.

We lived away from family for many years and the reason why we bought this house is to have a home here near them. I've had many beautiful homes that we built with beautiful monster kitchens, large islands, etc. but had no family to share it with, so it's a trade-off I'm willing to make. I completely understand everything that you're saying and that's kind of my dilemma-trade offs.

You did bring up something that I hadn't even thought of which is the relocation of the stairs. That may be the most cost efficient plan of all seeing that under the utility room is unfinished we could possibly put them out there and open kitchen and dining room to each other. See, that's why I posted here the great ideas, thoughts, encouragement etc.

You seem like a very sweet, caring individual Lascatx and I appreciate it very much. Thank you for not being frustrated with me. I will take your advice to heart :)


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RE: Gwebbers suggestions CAN'T happen, so now what?! Layout help

Thank you for not getting frustrated with me. I enjoy making the most of what you have and doing it within reason (that was my only option). You have more options than average, but that means a lot more to think about and a greater challenge to maintain focus. Take your time and get away from it when it gets to be too much. You seem to be staying open to considering all possibilities -- you'll figure it out.

I planned my kitchen for family get togethers of 6-16 and more as well as teen parties, but it's about to get quieter for a while. I have the two boys -- about to turn 18 and 21 and the youngest heads to college soon. Both will be at music festivals this summer and gone more than here. I lost both my parents in the last 6 months and with all the kids getting older and going off in different directions, I don't know what will happen with the family gatherings. Even so, if it's just DH and me, the kitchen works well and it's not overdone. We didn't have any options to expand or relocate, so it was all about making the most of the same footprint. That was challenge enough for me.

Again, look forward to seeing what you come up with.


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RE: Gwebbers suggestions CAN'T happen, so now what?! Layout help

Lascatx-I'm sorry for your loss, in the grand scheme of things kitchens are just kitchens so we will figure it out when we are supposed to I guess. Hugs from MI all the way to TX.


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RE: Gwebbers suggestions CAN'T happen, so now what?! Layout help

Blue- Any progress on your plans? So many possibilities...did you see another KD? Just thought I'd stop by and say 'hi' :)


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