1. no such thing as life time sealer. But sealing it is easy....just wipe it on and wipe it back off. but I'd also wonder what other lies that granite place is telling you....I might be a little leery of them.

2. Seams can be nearly invisible on light or dark granite...it depends on the installer. I prefer seam placement in the middle of the sinks so you will have two little seams instead of one really big one.

3. I'd want to know price per foot and cost of extras (undermount holes, different edge profiles, etc). Also never ever ever pay in full in advance!! RUN from that place. There are too many horror stories of bad installs and if you have paid in full, you will have no recourse if the job is bad.

4. eliminating the middle man is cheaper. The contractor does get a better price, but he does not pass that on to you...he keeps it as additional profit for himself.

5. See the whole slab before making your choice. Make sure that the slabs you pick are the ones that are actually going to be used in your kitchen. Silver/gold is actually a huge family of granites (might also be the name of one...not sure about that). It comes from Brazil and there are many granites that fall into that family. They are exotic and more expensive, but gorgeous! I have one of the silver/gold granites in my bathroom. Not 100% sure of the name since it was a remnant, but it may be Genesis. Here it is.....

>1. no such thing as life time sealer.

Very true, but it's also true that some granites don't need sealing at all, especially the dark ones.

Hi mountaineergirl,

How exciting new granite!!! A few red flags are poping up
about your chosen installers.

Pay in full? Please be careful. I would get a few quotes
for installation before going with these folks. A good
installer would not need to be paid in full. They want you to
be happy and would accept only 1/2 pay prior to the job.
The rest after you accept the seams, cutouts etc... I got
7 maybe 8 quotes until I found a company I could really
trust. I mean trust to do my seams.

Are they members of the MIA? (Marble Institute of America)
Can you see their seams up close in someone's home or in
their showroom, office or last job?

Will they let you template and pick exactly where you want
your seams, your pattern and how it will look installed?
Don't be afraid to ask.

Now to your questions..

1. Lifetime sealer. I doubt it. Sealing is easy to do.
Spray and wipe. Once a year. Some granites like Uba Tuba
and Verde Butterfly have less issues with stains and have
a non pourous nature. Maybe this is what they mean.

2. A good seam should be less than 1/18th of an inch.
Thin. Black, White, Green, Purple it should be fairly
thin. Smooth and even.

3. Charging by the job or sq foot is not as big an issue
as their reputation. In my 7-8 estimates. I chose a mid to
high price because the reputation was far more important.
Certain edges are more expensive because of the waste
in the granite. I can explain this later.

4. Our installer was a different person than the granite
slab yard. But our installer handled the price of slab and
the install of the cut pieces of granite.

5. Lastly, do a search of white kitchens. Look at the
different options of coutnertops, colors. There are some
great white kitchens with light color counters. Just want
you to think of all your options.

And here is a great place to visualize colors of counters.
I did not buy dupont granite but did spend some time
looking at what might look nice in my kitchen.

http://www2.dupont.com/Surfaces/en_US/index.html

Butterfly
{{gwi:1845082}}

Verde Peacock

Ubatuba

{{gwi:1891242}}

{{gwi:1891243}}

Nordic Black
{{gwi:1745609}}

You did not mention this one but this is Blue Pearl
it should be close to the same price as UT VB.

{{gwi:1745607}}

Seams
{{gwi:1891244}}

seam
{{gwi:1891245}}

Hope these seam pics help you to see what I mean about
how small. Not invisible but fairly tiny. And they should
feel smooth to the touch.

wow thanks for your replies! and many thanks boxerpups for the pics! I noticed that the last pic was a diagonal seam. I was told by one of the fabricators that they do not do diagonal seams like that, because it would leave a pointy edge/corner? and that spot would be weaker. It could break easier. He called something a "french seam"?? It was straight (perpendicular to the edge) with a curve at the end. They also do not make seams at the sinks because shorter seams = weaker spots ???does this sound right? I think he said longer seams were stronger, or less apt to shift/break? If there is some settling in the house, the shorter (ie weaker) seams could shift or something. I don't know, I'm just now trying to educate myself before we make any decisions. Just making the decision to get the granite is a big one, so I'm taking my time and will definitely visit several slab yards. The one that wants it paid in full is a very popular one in the area, and have talked to a few people that dealt with them and they were very pleased. But I agree, I do not like that idea at all.

I love all the colors in the pictures! Right now I am swaying toward verde butterfly, but am just getting started so who knows what I'll end up with. I want to do this like in Jan or Feb but DH says lets do it this fall. I need time to figure this out. Even tho its something that's only a fraction of, let's say a car purchase, its a forever thing. So, I want to get it right.

Thanks again, I welcome any and all suggestions!

Hi Mountaineergirl,

I think you are wise to plan, study, and find your
favorite. I must tell you I am not a granite expert. I
learned so much on GW that I wanted to help you out with
what I learned. I believe you are correct about the seams.

I just wanted to let you see pictures of seams so you would
know what I was talking about. We have "French" seams. I
did not know that was the name. It was something my
husband requested, a seam 4 inches away from the corner
on a curve.

Here is a pic that might better explain.

Since you love Peacock here is a post that talks
about the kind of stone. Blotches and colorings. And some
great examples of counters in kitchens.
http://ths.gardenweb.com/forums/load/kitchbath/msg0511355528335.html

Stone Checklist by Buehl(This is a great informative list)
http://ths.gardenweb.com/forums/load/kitchbath/msg0402564914989.html

Now you have to think about edges on your counters.
Edges can be expensive because sometimes granite is wasted.
Imagine a piece of cardboard. If you cut the edge of the
cardboard in an intricate way, angled or layered. You
loose the rest of the cardboard peice.
This is best to talk over with your installers.

Oh

Enjoy shopping, If I find any more great pics of peacock
or any granite with the white cabs you talked of, I
will post. Happy planning.
~boxerpups

Here is a link that might be useful: granite seams acceptable?

I can't add much but as for pricing by square feet/ or by the job... just make sure you are comparing apples to apples. That is, make sure all estimates are for the same completed job(edges, cutouts, etc). I also went with a fabricator who everyone raves about - they do the digital templating. The guy actually played around for quite a while trying to get some funky curves/overhang I kind of wanted on my island. The installation took next to no time as they really had it down pat. The material is too expensive to not be delighted with the installation part.
If I remember correctly, I think I did put a deposit-possibly 1/3? at templating but the balance was not due until installation (and I used my credit card of course just in case).

I"m not an expert as I just had mine installed 2 days ago.
We went to a person who specializes in granite and was recommended from a friend who had their counters done by him. I went to their house and saw how beautiful it was and knew I had my guy.
We had to pay 1/2 at template and the rest after install. We were fortunate ( i think!) He came on a Tuesday afternoon to measure and I had my granite by Friday.

My granite (L shaped) came in 2 pieces with the seam being directly in the center of the sink. It made sense since the 1 seam with the faucet is only about 1 inch and the seam by the edge is only 4-5 inches. Better than a 25-30 inch seam.
You can see my seam if you are looking for it. It's smooth to the touch and comes out more prominent in the picture than in person.

The granite came shiny but not sealed. They sealed it here, very easy to do. I thought they would have to paint it on and wait hours for it to dry. They basically wiped it on with a cloth and another person went behind him and wiped it down. They took a razor blade and took any glue or caulk that got on it and also went through with steel wool. I just about had a heart attack when they did that but it looks stunning!!!
They told me depending on what type of stone it is depends on how many times you need to seal it. Mine is once a year BUT if I want to...I can do it when I feel it needs it.
I love my granite guy, it's a family business and it is truly a piece of art and he knows his craft :)

Here is my sink seam

There is nothing wrong with a seam at the sink. Many....probably most...installers do it that way. Two little seams are much nicer looking than one large seam, especially if you chose a granite that has a distinctive pattern. It is very distracting to have a large attractive pattern disrupted by a seam smack in the middle of it. This picture is of my main food prep area. the fabricators put one seam at my sink and the other at my cook top, so this gorgeous corner would have no seam in it. The one place you do NOT want a seam is over your dish washer though!

Do not pay in full!!! You will have no recourse if things go wrong. The standard in construction is half down and balance upon completion. Some people like to use credit cards because they feel a sense of protection if they end up having a problem. If you don't use a credit card, make sure to ask if they will give you some kind of discount.

1. Lifetime Sealer: With modern sealer technology advancing as fast as (or even faster than!) computer technology, it is difficult to keep up with all the developments. The most recent development is called "nano technology", which, for all intents and purposes, mean that the solid particles in the sealer (the stuff that makes the sealer work) are very, very small and combined with advanced solvent technology, these particles can penetrate deeper into the stone and do a better job of sealing it.

There are a number of sealers on the market that make use of this technology and some even give lifetime warranties for properly applied sealers. A couple of these are "Dry Treat" and "Surface Treatment Technologies". STT has a proprietary combination sealer consisting of SB (the first application) and FE (the final application) that offers superior protection even on extremely porous surfaces. The guys over at the SFA did side-by-side testing of Dry Treat and the STT combination and found STT to be the superior product.

That said, there are a few others out there that I am not familiar with and could offer the same benefit. Just be wary of companies that claim to be "certified applicators" or some such. A lot of people saw a niche in a market and are trying to fill it by employing shady techniques.

Lifetime sealers often are more expensive than regular good quality sealers, and as some have noted before me, sealer application is no big deal and can be done at home and by yourself fairly easily. Just be sure to purchase a high quality product with a recognized brand name, such as Miracle or StoneTech, to name a couple.

BUT: Not all stones need sealer either. Stones like Blue Pearl, Ubatuba, Black Galaxy, Verde Peacock, Verde Butterfly, Platinum Pearl and many others are too dense to absorb any liquids - sealers included. Sealers only protect stone from staining through absorption, so in stones with low absorption co-efficients, sealing would be superfluous.

Sealing dense stones could lead to nasty results, such as streaking and ghost etching, so DO NOT go by the motto of "seal it anyway, it could not hurt". Rather test your stone for absorption by dripping water on it to see if it darkens any. If the water has no effect on the stone, sealing it is unnecessary.

2. Seams: DO NOT pick a stone to satisfy the abilities (or lack of!) the fabricator. A good fabricator will be able to make a good seam in whatever stone you select. MIA standards for seams list 1/8" as being acceptable. As with all bureaucratic institutions they are decidedly behind the curve in technology and applications, and there are fabricators who strive to make seams virtually disappear. Do know that it is more challenging to make seams "disappear" in veined or boldly patterned stones and fabricators will charge accordingly.
   
   Ask your intended fabricator(s) to have you see actual installed kitchens and look at the quality of the work they have done - not just on the seams, but on the rest of the kitchen too. Check for good edge polishing, consistent overhangs and overall appearance of the job. Speak to the homeowners (if they are available) and ask about their experiences with the fabricator. Showrooms could be misleading. Remember, they are designed to make you buy stuff :)
   
   2.1 Seam Locations: There are very many variables that go into the location of a seam. Appearances, although important too, are secondary to a number of them, including slab length, material pattern, installation hazards, cabinet and cut-out locations and access to the installation, to name a few.
   
   You could ask your stone guy to consider a seam in a location that would be preferable to you, and he will proceed with due consideration, but ultimately, it is his decision where they go in order to provide a quality installation. A good fabricator will discuss them with you and provide motivation for his choices.
   
   2.2 Seams over dishwashers: If done well and supported properly, there is no issue with having a seam over a dishwasher. The glue will not melt, the stone will not weaken and no disaster will occur IF it was done well. Most fabricators will avoid doing seams over the DW because the extra precautions are time and material intensive, but sometimes they can not be helped.
   
   Extra precautions for seams over a DW could include a "biscuit" joint at the seam, a ledger board screwed in the back wall or support plates glued under the seam, to name a few.
   
3. Pricing: Pricing is a carbuncle. Every shop has a different way of doing it, and practices vary from region to region. Some shops will give all inclusive prices, some use itemized bills, others will charge for labor and material and some others might charge them separate. In some parts of the country fabricators require you buy your own materials.
   
   My advice would be to compare the bottom line of all quotes and determine of you are comparing oranges to oranges. Determine what you would like: material, edge profile, cut-outs and backsplashes. Get estimates from the fabricators that will deliver the same end result and compare those. See if the price includes all the options you prefer, along with material and installation. Once you have all the details determined, looking at the final prices should then give a you a monetary comparison between the different operators.
   
   Although the price should be important when deciding on a fabricator, do not forget to look at other things like quality, customer service and your own *gut feeling* when you shop for a stone guy.
   
   3.1 MIA or not?: Does it matter? The MIA has no means of policing the fabricators that belong to them and joining the association only costs about $500 or so. Anybody can write a check and then put MIA on their business cards. We used to belong to them, but for fundamental reasons gave up our membership. This did not make our quality go downhill all of a sudden. In fact, the standards that we set for our shop were consistently higher than the MIA "required" for any of their members. In short - being an MIA member will NOT be a guarantee of any kind of good service or quality installation. Much rather look at the ethics and business practices of the fabricators on your short list.
   
4. See point 3
   
5. Color of the stone: You mentioned that you had white cabinets, and very little light coming into your kitchen, also that you had an oak floor. The stones like Verde Butterfly, Ubatuba and Verde Peacock could be real "light sponges" and, for all intents and purposes, turn almost black indoors with limited light.
   
   A medium toned stone that would offer a contrast with your cabinets and pick up on the color of your floor would IMHO be a better choice for you than a really dark one. Have you considered stones like Tropic Brown, Autumn Brown, Giallo Fiorito, Giallo Napoleon or Giallo Vicenza (a stone that would be awesome with your floor and cabinets)
   
   Giallo Vicenza
   
   {{gwi:1891248}}
   
   Giallo Napoleon
   
   {{gwi:1891249}}
   
   All the materials I have named here will probably fall in the lower to medium price ranges. The Gold and Silver stone is most likely high to exotic.
   
   Hope this helped :)

OK .. i never knew granite had to be sealed, we moved into a 2 yr old house 8 years ago which had the black granite. We would most likely never have chose it but since it was in the house so be it.. but we have come to love it and now are building a house and hope to be able to afford granite for it.

in the 8 years we never sealed this granite and it looks lovely, if we seal it would it add shine and depth or just a finish? Would it add to the richness and increase our sales pitch now we have the house listed for sale?

If it does not absorb water, it does not need to be sealed. Black stones as a rule of thumb do not need sealing. Sealers will do nothing for shine or color.

Stonegirl,

Thanks so much. I learn something new every time I visit
GW. I was totally misinformed about MIA. I hope I did not
steer anyone wrong.

I had no idea black or dark counters did not need to be sealed.
Do you know anything about Jet Mist honed?
Does it need to be sealed or is it like UB and VB?

Thanks,
boxerpups

Wow thank you for your replies! Yes, this forum is such a great source of info. Good to know about MIA also.

Well is seems people have different opinions about seams around the sink. Personally, I would rather not have one there simply because if that's where I'm standing most of the time, I don't want to look at it or feel it.

Stonegirl - As far as lighting in my kitchen - even tho as I mentioned its on the north side with a covered porch, there is a large (8-9 foot maybe) window and a 9-foot french door in the breakfast area. The door is like 3 panels where the middle one opens. and then another smaller window over the sink. Its just that these windows/door opens to a covered porch so there is no DIRECT sunlight. I have 8 recessed lights over the perimeter of the kitchen, and a light over the island. Then there is a light over the kitchen table in the breakfast area. So, do you still feel that the dark granite would be too dark? I did see some pretty new venetian gold that I liked, and could be swayed to go that route. But I also am concerned about staining etc with lighter granites.

Thanks again for your replies and for posting pics of different granites. I do love looking at pictures of granite, and kitchens in general for that matter!

Mountaineergirl - try and get samples of the stones you like and take them home to your kitchen and put them on your work surfaces like you would see them if they were installed (i.e. do not stand them up on the backsplash or lean them against the cabinets. This changes the way the light reflects off the stone and will give a false impression). See how they appear once they are in your particular lighting and surrounded by your cabinets, paint and flooring. That would really help you decide on a color that would be good for your space. One of the peculiarities about natural stone is that it will take on some of the characteristics of the spaces around it. You might find that your white cabinets really brings out the white in the Verde Butterfly, or that the golden color of your oak floor washes out out the golden color of the New Venetian Gold. The same stone could look totally different in two rooms of your house even :)

Boxerpups - quite often the finish of the stone will have some impact on the absorption rate. I should have qualified my statement by saying: "*Polished* [b]lack stones as a rule of thumb do not need sealing. *Impregnating* [s]ealers will do nothing for shine or color."

In some cases - like with Black Absolute or fully metamorphosed slate - the stone remains impervious, but the *relatively* rough (on a microscopic scale!) surface will hold on to liquids, retarding evaporation and giving the impression of absorption. Sealers and enhancers will find a foothold on materials like these because of the surface texture (again on a microscopic level). The sealers do not penetrate to the sub-surface of the stone and that is why stones like Soapstone or Black Absolute will require periodic re-application of sealers or enhancers.

The safest way to know for sure would be to see the effect of water on your stone and then act accordingly.

laurielep: What is your granite? It looks somewhat like Juparana Bordeaux, but without all of the variation that I've seen in that stone. I'd love to find something like this.

hgluckman, it's called Giallo Veneziano and yes the colors do look similar to the Juparana Bordeaux.

bumping this up, any more comments on "life-time" sealers?

Opinions on a seam at the sink?

thanks in advance for your replies!