Definitely not....give your friend 3 reasons:

1) There is no way you can get 100% return on the money put in the kitchen at this stage;

2) Realtor will charge a 6% mark up for every penny you put in and try to get back while selling, it might be easier to just set the listing price lower;

3) The most importantly you are not going to enjoy the new kitchen at all and I doubt you can build a 'dream' kitchen for an unknown random buyer............

Pig and lipstick all the way!!!

IF a client comes to me and is selling within 2 years I send them away- not worth it. I do at times offer a virtual kitchen, but tell them not to redo. 5 years is a more realistic cutoff.

I'm not convinced that it is the "buyers" who want the buzz words. A broker is interested in traffic, buzz words create traffic- they don't care if they sell your house or someone else's they get paid either way.

I'm pretty convinced based on folks that I've done kitchens who have gone on to sell the home that a real kitchen allows them to stand out from the rest and sell quicker. Evidence is only anecdotal though.

Put the lipstick on pig with some nice finishes. Unless a buyer comes back 5 or 6 times, they prolly won't notice its lack of functionality until they own the house. How long has your friend 'lived' with it?

This is a perfect example often overlooked in those God-awful reno shows on TV.

It is NOT ABOUT HER. As kind as her concerns are, how many times have we heard someone say (even here) that buyers are usually going to rip out everything you did, anyway. Anything you do will become a bemoaned "before" picture here.

Come to think of it, as small a world as it is, I'm kinda surprised no one has recognized their previous home in a new member's "AWK!" post! :)

Lipstick.

I would take the advice of the real estate agents. They are the experts in their market. Plus, it is absolutely in their interest to sell the house and sell it quickly (lower advertising cost, etc means more profit).

I finally am delurking to respond to this! We bought a home in a an upscale area a couple of years ago, and I would strongly encourage you to heed your realtor's advice and not do a major renovation. When we were house hunting, we were looking for, basically, what your realtor is describing...a "face-lift" kitchen. The reason was, we wanted something we could move in to and live with for a while before making the real changes that we want. But we didn't want a really outdated kitchen during that time. So, we bought a house with updated appliances and countertops but with older cabinets. It's been perfect!

Even though you think your kitchen is inefficient, it might be just fine for someone else. And the efficient kitchen that you might design might actually be a negative for some other people. Not to mention that you'd likely increase the price of your home to cover some of the renovation.

As an example, our kitchen is very small. A "one butt" kitchen for sure. But you know what? My husband does zero cooking. That's just the way our family operates.

So, my advice would be to spend what it takes so that the kitchen isn't a "negative" factor for buyers, but don't spend so much trying to make it a "positive".

What kind of real estate market are you in?

If your friend is selling in a hot market (or even better, a sellers market) like coastal anywhere, she should leave it alone. Anything broken must be fixed, anything dirty must be cleaned, but anything she does is going to be ripped out, as CEF says.

In a slower market with fewer buyers where inventory can sit for months, she needs to make sure buyers aren't dismissing her house completely because of the outdated kitchen. In this case she might want to consider a mini update: remove any wallpaper valences or blinds, paint the walls a contemporary color, replace laminate with inexpensive solid surface in plain white ( no quartz, no granite), update cabinet pulls, and remove any objects d'art.

Whether she feels bad or not is really her issue, I guess, but she can't really fix the layout for another family - she doesn't know how they will use their kitchen.

Lipstick on a pig, without a doubt! It would be a waste of money to renovate it to YOUR taste.

This post was edited by arkansas_girl on Wed, Jun 4, 14 at 9:36

Lipstick on a pig.

I was extremely grateful that the previous owners did NOT renovate the kitchen, but instead put the money in new windows and updated the bathrooms.
If we bought the house w/ a newly renovated kitchen, DH would never agree to renovate it to the way I want it.

But I am the only one of my friends who would want to renovate their kitchen. My friends would be fine w/ a newer kitchen, regardless of the layout, or the POTENTIAL of how much better it could be.

yup, lipstick/granite/tag-word to sell that house.

Amanda

I would be tempted to market it briefly as "kitchen needs updating" and see what happens.

We just sold and a few years prior to selling, we re-configured the layout of our kitchen. After putting it on the market, we received five over asking offers within days.

One month after we sold, a neighbor with a house virtually identical to ours went on the market. It was a high end flip and they had added a new kitchen with new cabs, floors, counters, etc but they did not change the L-shaped layout. The cabinets did not go to the ceiling, and the appliances were purchased from Lowes. The neighbor's house was staged in a more stylish manner than ours and it also had a pool, a new roof and some other amenities that our house did not have.

Ours sold for nearly 85K more than our neighbor's house, and our neighbors house had to be reduced 3 times after sitting on the market for 4 months. They priced the house too high at the outset -- over $75K more than our sale price, which really turned off potential buyers, especially the ones that were outbid on our house, some of them who were interested in the neighbors house.

Also, their kitchen didn't have the larger layout or functionality that ours did. Theirs felt cramped and crowded, even with the new marble counters and shiny appliances. I went to 2 or 3 of the open houses at our neighbors' house and every single time, people gathered in the kitchen to talk to the agent, and it demonstrated how small and inefficient the space was. I think good space planning and flow is very evident when you're looking at a house if you're a seasoned buyer.

So I'd say that a good kitchen layout pays out in the end, but we lived in the home for 3 years and enjoyed the kitchen. I'm not sure I'd do it just to sell a home. I'd complete some minor upgrades and call it a day.

Except for the people here, how many people out there are really aware of how a properly functioning kitchen should look like and be planned. To get the kitchen to be well functioning, by the definition of people here, may require moving walls, moving appliances etc. For the general public it may mean granite on the counter.

Put some lipstick on the kitchen and call it a day.

I was in that exact position in an ultra high end market. I painted existing cabinets, put in new mid level but good looking stainess appliances (but not Wolf/SZ level) marble counters, Ann Sacks backsplash.

I was convinced the kitchen would sell the place. It made it show better and looked great in the sales photos. Was touted as a "renovated kitchen." Nothing was/could have been done to the layout which wasn't unfunctional though not the greatest.

In the end, you never know who will buy. A single Dad with 2 kids bought the place for the style & bedroom layout. The kitchen wasn't an issue at all.

I could have spent double replacing cabinets and attempting to adjust the layout to make it more functional. It would have been money wasted as it would not have made any difference in the price at all.

Lipstick, lipstick, lipstick.

It depends on your market. In my area, which is booming, nice looking kitchens sell for premium money because people are so busy that they want move-in ready. Doesn't matter that the layout is bad or that there's a "barrier island" as long as it has marble or quartz counters. Most people don't cook anyways and just have their kitchen for show.
Depending on the price level, European or high end brands are required, while at the lower level SS is preferable, even if it's a less expensive brand, i.e. a SS frigidaire over a white Gaggenau.

"Except for the people here, how many people out there are really aware of how a properly functioning kitchen should look like and be planned."
You'd be surprised. I'd say at least 80% of the people I've dealt with as potential clients over the last 15 years. 3 that I know of were GWers.

I'd be reluctant to put too much into it unless I had hard evidence that people weren't buying because of the kitchen. A lot of people go into the buying process looking for something they can change to suit them. We bought a house with a dreadful kitchen (dreadful everything really) because it had good bones and the smallest bedroom was 15'x15', which is a rare thing in newer houses. I'm a very serious cook too. It pretty much came down to buying the house in full knowledge that the kitchen would be a gut job.

Cost is one thing, but I haven't seen a post that has mentioned the work and time commitment involved in a remodel that includes a new layout, like scheduling meetings and working with a KD, GC, fabricators, electricians, plumbers, carpenters, painters, etc. Then there's the upheaval of living in a home under construction.,,

In this case where there's no guarantee of a return and no practical benefit to the seller, I wholeheartedly agree with "lipstick on a pig."

It depends on your market whether you need to do a lipstick on the pig update or just leave it as is and clean. If your friend asked good knowledgable realtors, and she has done her own homework on the market, then your friend needs to just stick with what counts as a refresh in that market.

We purchased our house after a horrible fix up: new painted cabs and basic granite with old layout, 21" pinch point to the back door, old electric, old appliances with ss skins. The first time we looked at the house, I told my DH we would have to redo the kitchen. All of the problems were so obvious, to me.

The brokers were aghast because everyone else commented on how much they loved the kitchen! Friends who had looked at our house told us they still wish they purchased our house because of the great updated kitchen....

Clean the heck out of it, fix any busted stuff, paint it, and forget about it.

They won't get their money back, and selling it 'renovation ready' will attract a whole different group of buyers.

It's really easy to spot pigs waddling around with lipstick ... the cabinets are old, the layout sucks, and the granite is new.

===========
^^^^ what susielovestopaint said, 'spend what it takes so that the kitchen isn't a 'negative' factor for buyers, but don't spend so much trying to make it a 'positive'.'

'outdated' but sound and clean is livable while you are deciding on renovations

'outdated' and falling apart is not good.

============
We had the same dilemma ... moving soon (actually moving NOW) and didn't want to live with a rehab or put money into a rehab, trying to hit the elusive 'next owner's ' tastes.

So we cleaned it up, replaced the crumbling counters, added a backsplash and some more storage and it's done.

Someone could live with it for another 10-15 years, or they could rip it out immediately ... it was a low-budget face-lift

Here is a link that might be useful: my kitchen

This post was edited by lazygardens on Tue, Jun 3, 14 at 15:18

That is a tough spot: caught between "buyer beware" and karma....

We unfortunately got caught by the "lipstick" -- new granite on cabinets that are contact paper (not even wood) falling apart...deceived about the age of the cabs and when they were replaced...

It is our fault for falling for it. We were naive. Now i am in the position to have to throw out perfectly fine granite and spend a lot money i had not intended to spend. It is very painful on all fronts.

I wouldn't want anyone to go through what i have. I think most people who buy houses "with granite" are not those who plan to rip out and replace. Sure those people exist but they are the minority. Most people cant afford it. The people who are going to rip it out dont care whether there is granite......

But we bought our house for location and schools--not the kitchen and not "granite"! I dont even care about granite, to be honest. Never did. But when we sell our house we are are going to emphasize the quality of all our remodel/upgrades. I think "quality" is going to be the next trend anyway.

As for your friend, i wouldnt spend a lot of money.......paint, make it look nice and clean and cheery. but i am one who believes in karma....

That is a tough spot: caught between "buyer beware" and karma....

We unfortunately got caught by the "lipstick" -- new granite on cabinets that are contact paper (not even wood) falling apart...deceived about the age of the cabs and when they were replaced...

It is our fault for falling for it. We were naive. Now i am in the position to have to throw out perfectly fine granite and spend a lot money i had not intended to spend. It is very painful on all fronts.

I wouldn't want anyone to go through what i have. I think most people who buy houses "with granite" are not those who plan to rip out and replace. Sure those people exist but they are the minority. Most people cant afford it. The people who are going to rip it out dont care whether there is granite......

But we bought our house for location and schools--not the kitchen and not "granite"! I dont even care about granite, to be honest. Never did. But when we sell our house we are are going to emphasize the quality of all our remodel/upgrades. I think "quality" is going to be the next trend anyway.

As for your friend, i wouldnt spend a lot of money.......paint, make it look nice and clean and cheery. but i am one who believes in karma....

TeeHee -- if you keep the layout or don't make a lot of changes, the granite may be able to be reused or at least used by someone else. I would talk to fabricators and not allow anyone to rip it out. It should be removed carefully and as much of it as possible preserved for reuse in your kitchen, bathrooms or somewhere else.

There is another factor I haven't seen anyone mention -- the fact that it appears she will be selling in the winter, typically the slow time for the home market. And a low point in the inventory. Often what is on the market will be the dogs and misfits that didn't sell in the summer. A clean, well maintained home without any major issues and a good price point should sell well. If it is clean, freshly painted, the appliances don't look old and tired, updating fixtures might be a nice touch -- and they can be reused or recycled if the new owner updates. I would only replace counters if they are really old, tired or damaged. Most folks who don't want to remodel can handle changing a counter, flooring or paint. One or two of those shouldn't deter most buyers. It's when you get into two or all three plus more (appliances, really dated cabinet styles, etc) that people say it all has to be redone and either walk away of think much lower price point. And the more she changes, the more she, like a homeowner who would be staying in the house, may be tempted to do more -- the as long as we're at it factor.

Not seeing the kitchen and not knowing the neighborhood and the market expectations, you can really go back and forth. It's all academic without knowing a lot more.

Teehee1984, just want to clarify that when I agreed with the "Lipstick" option I was recommending just sprucing up what was there instead of beginning a remodel with a new layout. I suspect that's what most posters intended with that advice.

In no way would I suggest doing anything shady to deceive a prospective buyer. I don't think cleaning, repairing and spiffing up would be unethical.

I know. Point taken. As you can see i am sensitive to the "let's put lipstick on this pig" sentiment/mentality because i was one of those "duped" fools. It is embarrassing, humiliating, and very very expensive.

But i think people here (kd, gc and so on) are under the impression "the new owners will just rip it out anyway...) No. It seems that way to them because those are the folks they deal with....that is their world. so it seems that way....the majority of people do not and cannot afford a big kitchen remodel. I am only doing it because my cabinets and appliances are literally falling apart.

But i have lovely granite that hopefully a charity can use!!!

Teehee, I agree. Most people can't afford to buy a house and turn around and redo the kitchen unless that's the type of house project they are specifically looking for. And even more than budget, most people don't want to deal with the headache of a remodel. A remodel takes up so much time and energy.

If you are in the kind of market where someone can buy the house and rip out and remodel to taste, then just clean the place and list it.

I do think it is a bit different if the cabinets are truly falling apart. (The appliances not so much, because they can be replaced by the new owner without remodeling and the dates and all on those should be apparent from the home inspection if nothing else.).

But in our first kitchen we more or less put lipstick on the pig, for ourselves, because it was what we could afford. We painted 1970s cabinets that were thirty years old then and never high quality. But they still worked and obviously were in good enough shape to support the new granite tile counter top we diyed. New appliances, new cork flooring, new lighting and called it good. It was a substantial improvement even though we kept the old, not-great, cabinets. We did sell a couple of years later and I know the buyer liked the kitchen--it looked better than most things at our price point.

I think a lot of home buyers will keep a somewhat refreshed kitchen for quite some time until they can afford/work up the energy to remodel.

So, I don't see putting lipstick on the pig as all that bad in most situations, though I am sorry for anyone who was deceived by the shiny new granite.

Pictures, fishymom, pictures! :)

Get a realtor you trust and trust what they say!

Thanks for all the replies, fun to read everyone's responses. I don't have any pictures, but she has the typical 30" oak cabinets, no arches. The doors are in great shape but the drawers are showing their age. They have a solid surface counter and double bowl SS sink. The main issue is an island that is too close to the adjacent cabinets and cooktop with no vent. The appliances are white, older but in good working condition. Winter is the selling season here, inventory right now is low, who knows what the next 6 months will bring.

The plan right now is to have the cabinets painted a creamy white, replace the counters with an inexpensive granite, basic subway tile backsplash, update the hardware and paint the kitchen and adjacent family room. It won't solve the functional issues, but will look good and be livable.

Agree that it depends on location and the fact that it is in an upscale market=doesn't sound like an investor type property. I'm a Realtor in the D.C. area and out here, people would be shocked if you were trying to sell with anything less than granite. Spending about 15% of the home's worth on a remodel just isn't worth it unless you are going to live it out and enjoy it. I say, lip stick on that pig. Obviously, not hiding any nonworking components but it sounds like it's just a layout issue. I would paint out the walls neutral, paint the cabinets white if they are an older oak or pickled look, and new counter top. Those are all options that aren't too costly and don't require a lot of down time. Biggest problem is when people don't have the money so they just offer a "credit at closing" for granite etc. You end up giving away more than it would have cost. Best of luck to her!

I wouldn't even put bright lipstick on it. The kitchen sounds like it looks fine. What's far more important is clean clean clean clean clean. People don't want to buy other people's dirt.

When it comes time to sell, move all pets out. Really. Make the friends participate and house them. People who love their pets don't get how much dirt and smell they make in even the cleanest house. Even worse for the kitchen if they're fed and housed in there.

Then get in a crew to deep steam clean everything, including moving the freestanding appliances and cleaning underneath. All the nooks and crannies, etc. Degrease the cabinets, which surely have grease, there being no hood. If it can be done without a big expense and mess, put in a cheap hood with a good duct. Otherwise, forget it. Only 1 in 10 people will notice. Paint the walls if they don't look good after the scrub down. Get the drawers fixed, if possible. A decent carpenter can probably make them good as new. Old appliances that are in good repair and sparkling clean are much nicer than newer appliances that are scratched up and grimy.

I wouldn't paint the cabinets or put in the granite. There are a lot of people who might be prepared to renovate an old kitchen, but won't touch a house with a partly done one. One thing to be careful of in a higher end neighborhood is rinky dink remodelling. If people see something done badly, they'll think that applies to all the maintenance they can't see, and walk on by.

A fair percentage of my business are folks getting ready to sell. They had no problem living with chipped or cracked countertops, but they aren't giving the buyer's home inspector a chance to see them.

Why fix your tops for a stranger? Fix them now and enjoy before you sell.

Trebruchet, you struck a nerve! We lived in our previous home for 13 years and I lived with some pretty awful stuff during that time, making improvements as we could afford them along the way. We lived there while we were raising our kids, so tuition, books, college funds, sports and other activities took precedent over the niceties, like replacing the blue bathtub in the kid's bathroom that made the bath water look green! Or the pink and white tile in the master bath, paired with a putty colored sink, Carrera marble counter and khaki colored Formica vanity. And then there was the kitchen, walnut brown laminated cabinets, mustard colored, very textured Formica counter tops, a very tiny unusable peninsula, supported by a stained 2 x 4, and brown appliances. And let's not forget the beautiful and functional Terrazzo throughout the house, did I mention the deep gouges filled with cement where a previous owner had installed a sculptured carpet in the living room. Oh, and windows that rattled when a truck drive down the street or my (125 lbs) dog barked. But it was in a great neighborhood, close to school and very convenient for shopping, etc. And the beach was 5 minutes by car, 15 by bike, unless you caught the bridge!

We sold that house last year and the new owners got brand new bathrooms, custom, whitewashed maple cabinets, granite countertops with a bar height peninsula that opened to the living room, newer stainless steel appliances, engineered hardwood flooring throughout the entire house, new double hung windows, clear hurricane panels and fresh, neutral paint inside and out. By the time we were finished, I was ready to move back in!

When we moved to this house 5 years ago, we had the luxury of taking a couple of months to replace all the flooring, remodel the bathrooms and do some minor updates to the kitchen. The plan was to redo the kitchen in 5 years, which we have just completed. The last piece to the puzzle is the pool needs to be resurfaced and then we will completely done with this house. Just in time to move in 2 years!

I think your friend might have an easier time staining the cabinets an expresso or even painting them black with a white springs granite type of granite. It is so much harder to hide anything under white paint. It will show irregularities in the surface and spaces between doors etc. I would say dark cabinets in colors mentioned above are equally as popular as white and so much easier. It's quicker and will look better than white paint on oak (IMO). No excessive sanding down to get a smoother surface with the dark and the oak actually gives it some interest instead of on the white where oftentimes the results are iffy and usually painted white oak wasn't planned whereas I am seeing painted or dark stained oak offered as an option these days. I know that white painted oak may be as well but why? Paint grade wood is smooth and less expensive.

I agree lipstick on a pig, but I'd apply it differently. I think upgrading to stainless (even though I hate it) would make it seem more attractive to buyers. That and some wall paint might make it updated enough.

Definitely not remodel; just a waste of money.

If you have an island consider a relatively inexpensive new top for the island. I have a builder customer that puts an inexpensive granite on his islands (36 X 60") in all his houses because they sell faster and the island top only costs him about $500. (less if you discount the cost of the laminate top it replaces).

If no island new perimeter tops are a bigger project but still might be worth it particualrly if you stay with an inexpensive granite or quartz.

When I finally sold my Mom house, I barely put lipgloss on the kitchen. I scrubbed the original 1963 cabinets that my dad built, painted the one wall a lovely color and replaced the awful white knobs for a lovely copper that matched the hinges. I left the original star burst Formica and almond appliances (the green ones had been replaced by my Mom.)
The young bachelor who bought it only wanted to know where the nearest pizza place that delivered was, and his parents, who helped him pay for it, loved the "retro look"!

"The main issue is an island that is too close to the adjacent cabinets and cooktop with no vent."

Can she just remove the island? It will make the kitchen feel more spacious and she saves on countertop material. Or replace it with a mobile island or butcher block cart.

They will get more return on their investment upgrading the appliances than the counters, no question. Higher end stainless steel, whether bought as floor models or on CL, will not only bring in more offers, but higher ones. Think about it from the buyers perspective: if you're going to change the layout, you're going to toss the counters, but you can absolutely keep the appliances if they are worth keeping.

It's worth re-thinking their current plans. Keep the solid surface, buy better (whether new or slightly used) appliances.

One of the things that came into play on our new house purchase..was that we didn't have to buy any appliances. They are a bit older, but were top of the line. The cabinets are original particle which has several layers of white paint on them.
This kitchen is in no way what I want to live with, but it was the cleanest most "modern" in our price point.
It has faux butcher block laminate counters. (Corner point trim pieces missing from both sides on the peninsula.)
They just freshened up some of the white paint. Staged it with a few "things"..and called it good.

I think Lazy's kitchen is an ideal example of how to update a kitchen for less money, yet it makes a huge difference in appearance.

Sounds like removing the island and adding a mobile island is a great idea. She could do something very cool yet very inexpensive if she or her husband or a friend is a handy in diy.

I wished we could see some photos. That would help a lot!

Just make sure removing an island doesn't leave you with bigger problems (no workspace, replacing flooring -- especially if that could lead to larger or other changes). An isolated change is one thing, but project creep is the one thing you want to avoid in you situation.

If your solid surface counters are in good shape, I wouldn't change to granite. Some folks don't like granite and would rather have the alternative. A lot of folks might prefer their choice of granite over the generic one chosen for resale. And the folks who might rather reno the whole kitchen if they aren't paying for the updating too have already been mentioned. You see a fair number of whiners on HGTV who want move-in ready, but even they seem to be willing to paint a couple of rooms, change a floor before they move in or even have granite put in to make a good house their own. The higher the market, the more people seem to want something to make it their own.

I also wouldn't paint the cabinets white. My next door neighbors hired painters to paint their oak cabinets white, then paid a contractor to resurface them. We gutted our kitchen and changed out to frameless cabinets with more drawers, added organization and function and a lot more usable space and our kitchen probably took less time in the end -- we wonder if they spent much less or even more than we did. We know it took longer.

First thing I would do is look into refurbishing the finish on the cabinets. I'd remove the hardware on a couple of those drawers and see what you can do with them. First thing is to give them a good cleaning using a cleaner intended for wood finishes and make sure you don't leave any residual cleaner on the surface. Products to try once clean would be Old English Oil and/or Scratch Cover (look at their website for more info before you shop, but you can probably find these at your grocery store, Walmart or Target), Restor-a-Finish in a color to match the cabinets (both this and Scott's Liquid Gold have some solvents that will smooth out a worn old finish -- they are meant for solvent based finishes, not a poly based, so test if you aren't sure). Formby probably has some similar products, but the point is that if you give the cabinets a good cleaning and then make the best of the cabinets as they are, you will probably come out way ahead. Working with what is there is almost always the best bang for the buck. Go from there.

I think Lazy's kitchen is an ideal example of how to update a kitchen for less money, yet it makes a huge difference in appearance.

Thanks ... the local realtor (30-year neighbor, recently sold and moved to smaller place) dropped in because she saw our Zillow listing and had a serious amount of neighbor and professional interest.

She's kicking herself for not putting shelves under her useless breakfast bar while she lived there.

And she almost choked when the SO told her the total cost of the facelift. My backsplash was She's of the "scrub it till it squeaks and fix the broken or ugly stuff" school of thought, because for every buyer who wants a fully upgraded kitchen, there will be one who wants to do their own dream.

In her own upgrades, I could tell from the listing photos that their bathroom cabinets and counters were untouched but restained, crappy undermount sinks were replaced with the same Home Depot Drop-in (happens to fit perfectly and match the counters) ... great minds and all that.