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| We just had a kitchen designer come over to discuss our kitchen and we liked her very much. She had a lot of good ideas and she was able to understand what we want from the new kitchen. We could tell that she has been in the business for a long time and knows her stuff.
She measured everything and told us she would have a plan ready for us in a week. When I asked her if she would be giving us a ballpark estimate for the kitchen at that time, she said that she didn't have the time to do that. She said it was just too complicated to do an estimate. Since I have never used a designer before I am not sure if this is the norm. After seeing the plan, how would I know if I wanted to move forward if I had absolutely no idea how much it would cost? My DH says it's a sales technique but I think if it is, then it's a very bad one. Does this sound right? |
Follow-Up Postings:
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| I think she should be able to give you a ball park based on some idea of the cabinets you are considering and your needs regarding appliances. I think any construction might be different. |
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| Hi jerzeegirl. Yes and no. First you make a plan, then you choose finishes that can have a huge impact on the quote. Thing is, if you know you have a budget (say, 20K) and you absolutely want a John Boos end grain butcher block island somewhere, you should tell your designer up front. Her response should have been more informative. Saying it's too complicated, well, that's her job. If it's too complex for her, perhaps she should consider something else, or you should consider someone else. Here's a question for you: is she a free design service associated with a home improvement or cabinet company, or are you paying for her services? If she's free, don't worry about this, but certainly seek out free design services from other places as well. If you are paying her, do you have a contract with her that explains what she's supposed to do for you, how much, and at what point she will be paid, how you will determine whether she has completed her task and how many re-dos she will design for you? She will probably give you a standard contract to sign. Feel free to make changes to it. If you are paying, you can absolutely specify that she get estimates (for low end, mid range,and high end appliances, for example) and prepare an itemized cost list as part of her required duties. Spell out what you want for your $$. She works for you,not the other way around. And if she pulls one of those "too complicated" lines again, tell her that's not an acceptable response for you. Exciting stuff - Good luck! E |
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- Posted by live_wire_oak (My Page) on Fri, Jun 15, 12 at 11:06
| I'll tell you what I always tell clients: The same basic kitchen could cost 5K in a builder grade cabinet line or it could cost 50K in a custom line---and still have the same overall "look". If you tell me what general overall budget you are trying to hit, and what look you are going for, then I can probably hit that number. I have 8 cabinet lines currently, and with all of the promos going on, one of those will work for your number and offer a door style you can live with. YOU are in control of the costs. Your CHOICES are what impacts the budget the most. For instance, if white paint (not thermofoil) is a MUST, then you are going to have a more expensive kitchen than someone who is OK with a medium wood door. Glass? Plan to double your budget, etc. I also do "ballpark" figures for customers, but that doesn't involve any design work. For those just beginning to get estimates, they usually involve sticker shock, and there's no point in doing an actual design unless that sticker shock wears off and they realize that they are looking at (on average) a 10-20K expense. If you've shown that you aren't completely cluess about what your taste costs, and given her a number, and she really does have the experience she professed to have, there is no reason that after measuring the kitchen that she couldn't have given you that ballpark figure range for your wants here. The only reason that I can see that she wouldn't would be that you are sending out signals that you are completely out of touch with what your wants cost, and she wants to get you more emotionally involved in the actual design before giving you that sticker shock. That's not a technique that I personally will ever use, but then, I require a retainer before ever doing design work. That's the commitment right there that covers my time. |
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- Posted by jerzeegirl (My Page) on Fri, Jun 15, 12 at 11:39
| She is a free design service and she says she has many lines of cabinets. However, we did tell her specifically what we wanted (frameless, specific door styles, specific wood, etc.) and I gave her my plan so any computer or "design" work would be minimal. She totally liked and understood what we wanted. When we were discussing different options,she seemed very cost conscious. We would say we wanted a certain feature (like plywood boxes) and she would tell us that really wasn't necessary (she called it old school) and that the new particleboard boxes were very good because they are "green". So I don't think she was necessarily trying to up-sell us into an expensive line. I guess I am a little disappointed because I like her and don't quite know how I will be able to compare what she has to offer to the other quotes I have if she doesn't give me a rough idea or a range of cost. |
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| Good info. I have none. I was just wondering if you're going for the look in the two-tone kitchen you posted on the OTK thread. That's absolutely gorgeous. |
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| Jerzee - not "particleboard," that's the cheap, crumbly stuff that you use for projects that you don't expect to last long. Also used as a base in upholstered rocking chair seats in rockers bought at Babies-R-Us. Ask me how I know! In kitchen cabinetry of any quality at all, it's mdf, sometimes called "furniture board." Here's a thing I researched several months back, but it's still useful. Plywood - made from thin sheets of wood veneer layered so that the grain of each sheet is 90 degrees to the ones on either side. There are 8 recognized grades from sorta glued together with all sorts of defects (fine for some purposes) to really nice. Cabinets would use the top 2 grades. Generally an "upgrade," although many dispute that the upgrade involves any perceptible quality vs. an upgrade in cash outlay. mdf - made from wood fibers combined with wax and resin and formed under high heat and pressure. Doesn't have knot holes and other imperfections of plywood. Doesn't hold wood screws as well as wood, so other fasteners may be used. Often used for painted cabs since it doesn't have a wood grain showing and paints up well. "furniture board" - highest quality mdf, although not all manufacturers use the term. Any decent cabinets made of mdf will use this quality no matter what they call it. particle board - is like mdf except that instead of starting with wood fibers, it starts with wood chips and chunks that are waxed and resined together. Not suitable for cabinets. If any cabinets are actually made with this, you'd probably purchase them in a back alley for a "really good deal." |
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- Posted by jerzeegirl (My Page) on Fri, Jun 15, 12 at 12:18
| rosie: Our first choice is to do dark walnut slab for the base cabs and white shaker for the uppers. The pantries surrounding the fridge will be white. If that is way too expensive the backup plan is dark wood slab for the bases and light wood for the uppers and the pantries (in the vein of the OTK photo but probably not as upscale!). I see a number of good solutions so I'm keeping an open mind! |
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- Posted by jerzeegirl (My Page) on Fri, Jun 15, 12 at 14:11
| suzanne: Thanks for your clarification. I guess I was a bit confused since Ikea calls their boxes particleboard and I thought that was standard for frameless cabinets. |
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- Posted by AboutToGetDusty (My Page) on Fri, Jun 15, 12 at 14:43
| We entertained numerous bids from contractors and one CKD. The CKD wouldn't give us a price either, and he lost the job on that fact alone (he changed his story at the 11th hour, but it was too late). The contractors all gave us breakout pricing - so we could compare plumbing, electric, carpentry, etc. And then I researched cabinetry and appliances, knowing I would be setting my own budget. We did not pick on price alone...seeing how we were treated during the process, and finding a bid that was extremely detailed, was very helpful in determining who we wanted to work with. It's about price, personality, quality, and how you will be treated. Definitely shop around and then take a hard look at your options. Good luck! |
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- Posted by SparklingWater (My Page) on Fri, Jun 15, 12 at 17:15
| I had a CKD come to see my kitchen: galley, max 16 cabinets, 18 linear feet. She measured everything and gave her estimate for the cabinetry ($17K of Dynasty even with 35% discount). I asked for the total labor estimate (cabinet installation, two sink pull and place, and electric-6 cans and some UCL to cabinet areas where hard wires exists for each old upper) she said the estimate was $23K to $25K additional labor. This did not include BS, countertops, sinks, light products, just labor. My thoughts are CKD's sell design and cabinetry. I could see her hesitance with giving me the pull and place kitchen labor charge. This is not a take it to stud kitchen job. I wonder if that's where her discomfort rose in your situation too. |
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| 12 years and I am still lousy at guessing price. I can usually get a range early but if I can't I don't. It never helps to give a client the wrong price. A lot can be going on as Livewire said so well. Just as potential customers are evaluating us (KD's) we are assessing them. "Can I do what they want? meet expectations? what are they looking for? can I meet the budget? can I get the job? can I work with these folks? is this a good fit? do I want the job?" Half the time I'm more focused on the design problem than anything else blythely unaware that I'm being graded. A lot can be going on, or not... could just be a lousy guesser and knows it :) Note "furniture board" is a type of particle board. It is NOT MDF. You will find salespeople telling you it is. Not sure how that got started. |
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- Posted by jerzeegirl (My Page) on Fri, Jun 15, 12 at 18:01
| The KD took the measurements and said she would have a plan to us in a week. She had a copy of my plan which was fairly detailed and knew the kind of cabinets I wanted. It was then that I asked if she would be giving us a ballpark estimate with the plan. She said she didn't have time because she was too busy with a $40K kitchen she was working on (!) but I suppose that could have been an excuse. I thought to myself that she probably shouldn't be saying that to a prospective client but I am also very sympathetic to the fact that my kitchen is small and will not make her rich. I currently have 4 estimates: Lowe's and HD drew up the plan and gave us a price as we sat there. The local custom cabinetmaker took four weeks but gave us a drawing and a price. Leon was able to give me an estimate immediately by looking at my plan. I guess I am not a very patient person and I really want to get started! |
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- Posted by olivertwist (My Page) on Fri, Jun 15, 12 at 22:59
| I still don't really understand the KD thing. If you choose an independent KD not associated with a cabinet place, and you want to get opinions from multiple KDs, to you have to pay each one? Is there an "initial free consultation"? |
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| Olivertwist- generally an independent will offer one free consultation, they will talk to you. They will not typically do design work or drawings without a fee. There are also many KD's who sell cabinets that require a retainer first. Then there are those who sell cabinets and do not ask for a retainer. Finally there are some (very few)cabinet sales KDs who will do some preliminary work and then ask for a retainer. |
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| This site takes you step by step showing how to find a kitchen designer. |
Here is a link that might be useful: How to select a kitchen designer
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- Posted by TorontoTim (My Page) on Sat, Jun 16, 12 at 10:51
| Never understood why people need 'kitchen designers' in the first place. If you know what you want, unless your kitchen is massive and incredibly complicated, what's to 'design'? All respect to the kitchen designers out there who know all the tricks to getting the most storage and functionality out of a space, but IMHO a lot of it is basic common sense. I don't hire contractors either - work direct with each trade. For my kitchen I did the demo, hired a plumber, an electrician, hired one guy to frame it in to finished drywall, I installed the hardwood floors, one company did the cabinets, another did the counters. I installed the cabinet lighting and appliances (i.e. dishwasher). Natural gas guy to run the line for the stove. Not saying KD's and contractors don't have a place in many situations, but don't assume you need one. You'll save a ton of money if you do some of the leg work yourself.     |
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| Tim, not everyone has your organization or vision AND not everyone follows GW. Maybe 15 years ago my brother and his wife wanted to totally reconfigure their kitchen/family room space. Brother is an attorney and his wife works full time in addition to both of them attending to the needs of 4 kids. They hired a KD who designed a kitchen for them that is/was incredibly forward-looking. It has mostly lower drawers, a prep sink in the island, 2 trash pull-outs, range top on one wall and double oven on the other, and a large cabinet depth fridge. The only really dated part of that kitchen is the white tile countertop. It could have used a dedicated non-counter space for the MW and pull-out shelves in the pantry. At Thanksgiving the entire extended family descends on that kitchen, which is not overly large, and it still works. All these years later, I'm impressed. So, I'm with you: we did our own design, demo, cabinet installation, tile, and hired out the electrical, some plumbing, the granite counters, and the bamboo flooring. It's not everyone's cup of tea, though. I'm pretty sure my brother couldn't hang cabinets without a descent into terminal cursing and possibly an ER visit. My SIL isn't gifted in the tool department, but if you need a major event planned, she's your go-to. However they hired their KD and got that kitchen built, they got a kitchen/family room that is the heart of their under 2000 sq. ft. home (I'd guess maybe 1600 sf.). Different strokes. |
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- Posted by jerzeegirl (My Page) on Sat, Jun 16, 12 at 11:55
| TT: That's actually what we were planning to do. I am currently lining up the trades guys but I have to get my cabinets from somewhere! All I really want is someone to say here are the cabinets I propose for you and this is the ballpark price. I know that designers do not like giving you the listing of the cabinets because they are afraid you will shop it around. Fair enough. But I would be delighted if I could get a range - like "a kitchen this size will cost between $8K for plain wood and $12K if you want painted or specialty and this price does not include pullouts - if you want pullouts it can raise the price by $2-3K." Honestly, guys, it's not that big a deal because everything is calculated by the computer program they use! I think there is a fear that if you give a price you might lose a customer who will have "sticker shock" and someone mentioned up thread. |
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| Jersey, did you go to HD or Lowe's? They'll sit down at the computer, draw up the kitchen, give helpful tips (hopefully), and run the numbers. It takes a little work to run it both with and without lower drawers, or in different lines, but changing the door style and finish of a particular line is a snap. Adding or subtracting particular cabinets is easy, as is changing your wood selection, or plywood vs. not. Unfortunately, the design programs don't save all your permutations, so you need to print out the layout and prices as you go along. At HD the kitchen people don't work on commission, but at Lowe's they do, so that is something to keep in mind if you're using their time while quite sure you'll be buying somewhere else. If you bought cabinets from either place, you don't need to hire their people for install, and it doesn't change the price. I'm with you, I like knowing exactly where I stand and what is costing what. One complication that is common to all vendors is the current "special." Best I can tell, every line runs specials most of the time, especially in the summer. In one line, it's "free" finished ends and in another it's "free" finished interiors. Seems like they all go with a "free" sink cab, and if they're not offering that today, they'll probably throw it in if you ask. It kind of messes up the numbers, but you'll still be closer than no clue whatsoever. |
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| jerzeegirl, when the kitchen designer doesn't have time for you and tells you that she's busy working on a $40k kitchen, that to me is a sign that she has placed you on a "low-priority" list. Maybe she thinks you're just kicking tires or that you can't afford it? Who knows. But that's not how I'd want to start off a working relationship. Given that you have given her some design constraints to help narrow the options, I would think she should be able to give you some sort of numbers before you start paying her to do a full kitchen. The other thing I ran into twice with these free quotes, is I wanted glass doors on two sides of a cabinet. I got told "that's expensive." I said "how expensive?" And they kept saying I wouldn't want to pay it--without answering. They did not get my job. This was something I wanted and had envisioned. I was willing to pay for it. Maybe we are in a minority, but we didn't remodel our kitchen for emotional reasons....a couple of prior posts talk about being emotionally involved. The main emotion we had was years of frustration with a dysfunctional kitchen. We had researched what the cost would be and waited years until we could pull this off. I also wouldn't be talked out of plywood if that's what you want. Being told something is "old-fashioned" is condescending (and not helpful either). Better to have someone willing to sit down with you and explain the pros and cons of plywood and mdf.
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- Posted by AboutToGetDusty (My Page) on Sat, Jun 16, 12 at 13:40
| Jerzeegirl, I second Lowes...as long as you can put in the time, and you don't mind some possible hiccups with the contractor. I wish we could have afforded to hire a CKD and pay someone else to do all the legwork. And unlike Toronto Tim, who is obviously incredibly talented and has construction and design "common sense" - we don't. Neither spouse nor I can pick up a hammer, not that we'd have the time to learn. But I did sacrifice time in order to save money, by getting multiple bids and taking my basic kitchen measurements to Lowes & HD to get ballpark estimates. We were in a hurry to catch one of the sales (they happen every couple of months and seem to rotate by brand). I found the Schuler cab to have a superior finish and the Lowes kitchen staff talked it up. Everything came on time, without a scratch, and I paid under 12K total (it would have cost significantly more without the layered sale). The bids I had gotten had predicted 18-20K in cabinetry. So while I feel guilty for not spending as much time with my kids for a while, we saved a good amount on cabinetry by shopping around. I clocked myself - 15 hours at Lowes trying to create the perfect kitchen in less than a week. The lady was so nice, but not a CKD. But some Lowes kitchen folks are CKDs...maybe you can find one? |
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- Posted by jerzeegirl (My Page) on Sat, Jun 16, 12 at 15:59
| Dusty: I actually went to Lowe's and have an estimate fromm them. I would be thrilled with Lowe's and Schuler cabinets. For our previous kitchen, we used Lowe's and Schuler and it was a great experience! The cabinets were beautiful (Quarter Sawn Oak in Hazelnut with red crown molding). This time around I decided I wanted to go frameless and Lowe's has no frameless lines. I also went to HD because they now have Innermost (which is Schuler / Medallion) and they were fine but I am not thrilled to used HD. I just don't feel the love at HD! I also got a quote from the local Amish cabinet store (for framed) and I got a quote from Scherr's (frameless). Both of these quotes were decent and both were lower than Lowe's and HD. I guess where I got hung up is wanting frameless and wanting the lowers to be walnut! I guess I could do Schuler and use dark cherry for the base cabinets, but I am not ready to give up on the walnut just yet. If all fails this is what I am doing. Schuler with the Manhattan door style painted divinity white for the uppers and Soho door style in Gingersnap for the bases. White quartz countertop. Natural oak floors. Or if I decide not to go two-tone the whole kitchen in Manhattan painted divinity white and a leathered black countertop! The trick would be to make it look more modern and less bungalow. Colorfast: I thought that maybe she was being condescending but then I decided she said that because she didn't want to give our her cabinet list to us. I think it was just an excuse. When I asked for the print out at HD, the KD said she couldn't print it out because it wouldn't print! This was after she had printed out the kitchen designs! I must look naive. Lowe's on the other hand gave me the plans and the list - that's why I like Lowe's - if find them to be very aboveboard! |
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- Posted by annkathryn (My Page) on Sat, Jun 16, 12 at 16:58
| jerzeegirl I've been following your thread as I think our styles are similar even if our kitchen layouts aren't. I love the look of grain-matched walnut and wanted that in the new kitchen of the house I'm renovating. DH and I got bids from 4 GCs for all custom cabinets, and they all came in around $25K. We decided to go with a mix of Ikea boxes, custom walnut doors, some Ikea high gloss white doors, and a custom island from Sherr's. Total cost will be around $9000. The custom island will be 2 banks of drawers, 18" deep and 30" wide. The white uppers on the sink run will have custom walnut panels. Here are a couple of views of the layout so you can where we're going with all of this.
Inspiration pictures
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Here is a link that might be useful: Custom doors from SemiHandMade for Ikea Cabinets
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- Posted by jerzeegirl (My Page) on Sat, Jun 16, 12 at 17:54
| AnnKathryn: That is very similar to what I have in mind! Especially the top inspiration picture - that's it! I have a question for you. Are you using Ikea boxes for the cabinets that will take the walnut doors? What color box will you use and what are you planning to do about the edge banding? I would consider Ikea but I am totally stuck on the edge banding issue. |
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- Posted by annkathryn (My Page) on Sat, Jun 16, 12 at 18:17
| Hi jerzeegirl, Every cabinet in my plan is going to be an Ikea box with the exception of the island which will be from Sherr's. Ikea doesn't make 18-inch deep drawer cabinets, and cutting a 24-inch cab down to 18 inches wasn't going to work for us on the island. DH and I went to visit Semihandmade Cabinets in SoCal earlier this year. We had a long conversation with the owner, John McDonald, and I specifically asked him about the edges. He said that he makes his doors slightly larger than the corresponding Ikea door, so they cover the edges completely. I know you can buy an edgeband tape to match almost any wood, but I was pretty convinced that we won't need to do that. I think we'll go with the birch colored boxes from Ikea for the cabinets that are going to have walnut doors, and white for all the uppers and the base cabinets on the fridge wall. We were all set to buy them during the last sale in March, but then we overheard a manager talking about the next sale starting July 4 so we decided to wait until then. My GC won't be ready for kitchen cabinets until the first week of August, so that timing was good. |
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- Posted by jerzeegirl (My Page) on Sat, Jun 16, 12 at 20:27
| AnnKathryn. Thanks so much - I am learning a lot from you! My DH loves the Semihandmade doors! That's really what he wants to do - Ikea and Semihandmade. We have put together plenty of Ikea furniture, but I remember reading somewhere a discussion of Ikea cabinets and the carpenters in the group were saying that the boxes should be glued in additional to Ikea's cam lock system. I guess that wouldn't be too difficult. Mary |
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- Posted by annkathryn (My Page) on Sat, Jun 16, 12 at 21:00
| jerzeegirl I'm glad this info was helpful and I'll be interested to hear what you decide to do. The lead time for the Semihandmade doors was about 6 weeks. |
Here is a link that might be useful: Here's a gardenweb discussion of Ikea cabinets if you haven't seen it already
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