Not my forte, but having struggled through my plan already here's a draft to consider.

Given the distances involved, I used all 4 in lights. The general lighting may need to scoot a bit closer to the counter, but that's a bit more of a personal thing.

I also suggested circuits: task, general, sink, and pendants. Some people also like recessed above the island, probably switched with the general lights.

Dimmers would be good to help balance the layers as needed. Not sure what is to the right or bottom, so you may need more lights than pictured.

I'm sure someone can do better, but more suggestions means more dialogue and thinking, so better final plan :-)

Hi Williamsem. First, thank you so much for your help. Second, I am so sorry for the large photos. I have spent the past hour trying to resize to no avail. Resizing advice is welcome! (The only thing changing size is my stress level, and not for the better - lol).

The kitchen lighting is a real bone of contention between me and my architect. I inserted the architect's lighting plan so you could see what I am up against - this also shows the relationship of the dining room and family room to the kitchen. Everything is open.

Okay, I just figured out the colored lines through the lights refer to your proposed circuits. Yes, that was my plan. And your layout makes a lot of sense to me. However, can you please explain the benefits of 4" over 6"? I thought the 6-inch would give more light distribution.

Also, if it makes a difference, these are 9-foot ceilings.

Thank you again for any and all help.

I feel your pain; I struggled with our lighting plans. I ended up with four-inch instead of six-inch cans for better placement. I'm no expert, but I think my situation is a bit similar to yours. For example, in your design there appears to be a light hole between the blue circle to the left of the sink and the blue circle to the right. Another six inch can in between might seem like overkill but williamsem's four inch layout solves the problem with nice even spacing to boot. You'd have a good wash of light from the cans and nice accents/ task lighting with the pendants and sink lighting. My lighting plan looks similar and the electrician (whom I've worked with a lot and is great) tweaked it slightly to even up the spacing but overall thought it was a great plan. Right now they are still just empty cans--just installed this week--so I can't report on the end result, unfortunately.

The architect's plan also has some of the problems that pushed me to redesign with four-inch cans. I wanted a can sort of over each shoulder at the stove, but with six inch cans had to compromise to reach other areas. Your architect design has lights pretty far from the stove, especially with 9 foot ceilings. Williamsem's plan nicely lights that key work area, while keeping nice even spacing, which will look very pleasing.

That's my totally non-expert two cents anyway! Good luck!

Sarahstew: thank you for your comments and encouragement toward 4-inch cans. How far are your cans from the perimeter counters? Is there any way you can send me a photo of your layout? I would really appreciate any visuals you can provide.

Oh, and if I go with 4-inch cans in the kitchen, should I also do 4-inch in the Dining Room?

One of my fears is that the island will not have enough light. The pendants are antiques from a building designed by Julia Morgan. We got them when the building was renovated in the mid 1970's. What size pendant do you have over your island?

Thank you, thank you!!

Happy to help where I can, I learned so much here during my remodel!

The main reason I went with 4 in lights is because they are only about 3 ft apart. That's a bit close for 6 in lights, -but- that may not be the case for 9 ft ceilings. I don't know, I have 8 ft. Maybe someone with higher ceilings can chime in? You could also just go with 6 in and make sure you get a dimmer with a good range, then you can always dial back on the light if they are too much that close.

What I learned here is to use layers of light, on dimmers if you can. I started out with a "before" kitchen that had a hall light (near the pantry), a sink light, a OTR MW light that was broken, and a ceiling fan in the middle of the room. I lived like that for 12 years.

My new kitchen has UCL, sink light, a hood light, a ceiling fan light, and 9 4-in recessed lights. The cabinets are maple java, and the floor is a medium brown cork. I LOVE all the light, but also frequently use my dimmers (I'm an introvert that works in a very loud and bright environment, so I often use softer lighting when cooking after work).

With dark surfaces in the room, I'd err on the side of more light. If you over plan, there are dimmers. If you under plan, well, that's going to cost you, either $ or decreased enjoyment of your brand new space. Now that I actually have lights, I couldn't go back! For me, personally, the architect plan would not cut it, and I think with your choices you are right to try to find a better plan (your money, your plan...unless he's going to come cook in your dark kitchen for you).

Have you posted in the lighting forum? I found helpful info there when I did my lighting plan.

I have an open plan kitchen, dining, and living space also, with a 10' sloped ceiling. I initially wanted 4" cans, but switched to 6" for many reasons. I decided I wanted a broader spread, and did not want the glare of the 4" which would be emphasized with the slope. Additionally, I did not want to Swiss cheese my ceiling as I'd need more cans with 4". My kitchen area is roughly 16 x 12 and I have three 6" cans, UCL, and two pendants over the island. My range hood has bright lighting so I did not do a can over the range. I also have skylights, a pendant over the dining area, ceiling fan, two cans in the LR and a pendant in the foyer. All are on dimmers. I have 3000k LED's in the recessed cans and the temporary lights. With the knowledge I gained from the lighting forum and the advice of my electrician, I'm happy with how it turned out and the amount of light I have even though none of my permanent fixtures are chosen yet.

This link has basic guidance which can help you make the decisions you're grappling with.

Here is a link that might be useful: Lighting Forum Info

Ok, also should add what I tried to follow for placement based on assorted sources. Spacing from the counters is highly controversial. Some advocate for over the counter, some for in line with the counter edge (these groups are the "no shadow" groups), and others go for 6-12 in from the counter edge, sometimes a little more if it's more general lighting (these groups are the "task lighting beats shadow" groups).

For me, I have a closed in kitchen with dark surfaces. I went with 6 in off the counter edge because it worked out with the spacing and I felt it would put enough light near the uppers to balance their darkness and still light most of the room. I don't find shadows to be an issue, the lights are almost directly above me. Plus I have UCL to use for task lighting if I need it.

I also tried to follow the general guideline of centering on the upper cabinets where possible. The beams in the ceiling will have a say in that, but it made sense to me when I read it so I tried to do it.

This is where I ended up

I LOVE the light!

Minus the UCL at this point, but you get the idea...(the two lights in the hall are not on either)

Hi. Maybe I can help with height perspective (no photo yet). I have 10 ft ceilings and I have 5" recessed lighting in a similar size room 15x16, so the 4" ones seems reasonable. 6" would have been too much for my room. I had my layout done by a pro from a long respected local lighting store. It's perfect.

- recessed ceiling on dimmers
- ucl - not dimmable
- upper cab glass door puck lighting - dimmable
- sink - separate - believe its 4" dimmable but no pendant to attach and have forgotten. Wood valance in front over sink.
- I only have one light over my small island & it had to have a ceiling fan

My kitchen is an enclosed room.

HTH

This post was edited by Mags438 on Sat, Jun 28, 14 at 22:43

I'll post my floor plan/ lighting plan and a picture of the ceiling as is tomorrow. It's pretty dark in there just now! :).

Williamsem: thank you for the detailed explanation and your photos. I've followed your kitchen reno through my lurking. After reading and re-reading your suggestions I am more comfortable taking the can lights off of the edge of the counter and into the walkway. So many posts say to center the can on the edge of the counter - I am so glad to hear spacing them back a little is not the lighting disaster I thought it would be. And thank you, thank you for the photos. Nothing like pictures.

bbtrix: I didn't post to the lighting forum but will do that next. And I need to go to the lighting store to see if I am comfortable with the glare from the 4-inch lights. Great link, very helpful. Thank you.

Mags438: Thank you for the details on your lighting. Based on your plan, do you think seven 4-inch cans is too much? I can keep them slightly dimmed.

Sarahstew: looking forward to your picture, thanks so much.

So this is where I am at:

* on the fence with 4 vs 6 inch lights. Most concerned about glare from the 4-inch.

* leaning toward keeping the Williamsem's suggested light behind the range top if I use 4-inch lights. This would otherwise be a dark space if the hood light is not on. Maybe I could let that one go if I had 6-inch lights.

* I think I need to keep the can light at the bottom right of the island. This sort of rounds out the kitchen and it would cast some extra light over to the island.

I'll get a thread started over on the lighting forum. Can someone tell me how to link to this thread? I tried a few times last night but no success.

Thank you all so very much! I am still open to more of your comments and suggestions.

http://ths.gardenweb.com/forums/lighting/?5874

Here is the link to my lighting forum thread.

Seems I lost the post I was working on. Here's some of my dimensions since I don't have a photo. My sink wall is 120" and stove wall in l-shape is 141". I have 2 -5" pots along sink run and 3 - 5" pots along stove wall. There is 1 -5" pot in corner of L where sink and stove wall meet. Total of 6 pot lights along the L.

Also I read somewhere here in kitchens that pot light placement should be 26-30" from wall. I did 28" from (un)finished walls and pot light shines on countertop and aisle. My UCLs are near front of under cabs.

I believe my original design was for 4" pots since that's what I wanted then. Most were still putting in 6" pots during my research time, so as par for me, I went in between/middle of the road. The 4" pots design just looked a little too much like Swiss cheese on paper. The 5" housing allowed me to use a 6" led. I have a couple 4" pots in another room, I eventually felt they would be too small and make ceiling looks like Swiss cheese. I also didn't want to have any shadows if 4" pots were spaced too far apart.

HTH

Sorry for the delay. Here is my plan. I hope you can read it as it has all the electrical stuff on it. We have 9 4" cans labelled K that will be on a kitchen circuit, 4 labelled D that will be on a separate dining room circuit, two labelled S (drawn as three here I think, but dropped down to two) that will be on a circuit for lighting the sink and the adjacent counter where there are no uppers. I'll also have under cabinet lights, two small pendants over the island, and a chandelier over the dining table.

Overkill? Perhaps. We will have cherry cabinets and soapstone counters, which will suck up some light, and pretty much everything will be on a dimmer. I've also included a picture of the kitchen ceiling as is--it is pretty swiss cheesy, as Mags438 suggested. I think (hope) that once the all-white casings for my LEDs are put in my all-white ceiling, they will disappear. (The giant whole at the far wall is for the vent duct. The cutout rectangle on the right wall holds the two sink lights--the crawlspace was too low to access that part from above.)

Oh, I should add the total room size is about 14' x 22'. The kitchen area alone is 14' by about 12' ish (to the end of the counters). Our floors are being sanded above my head right now. LOUD. Progress. :)

Hi Everyone! Sorry it took me so long to respond. I have been reading your posts over and over again to really understand this lighting business.

Sarahstew: thanks so much for getting back to me with the pictures. What a big help! And how much do I appreciate your taking the time to help me in the middle of your big project! Really everyone here on Gardenweb is just awesome!

I spent most of the day at the lighting store working with a designer going over my entire build. He confirmed that because I want to light the front of my glass cabinets, the lights will end up being closer together and his recommendation was to go with 4-inch cans spaced about 4 feet apart. Based on that I am essentially going with Williamsem's plan and a few tweaks. Here is the somewhat revised layout. Isle lights are about 15" off the sink counter top and about 12" off the range counter top.

Here is my problem: Are all of you putting in LED bulbs?

We will not be putting in LED. In my area we make our own electricity with photovoltaic panels. The general consensus here is that LED technology is moving so fast that we should wait until it is developed to a point that the bulbs will work on regular dimmers and the light colors are better. So what are my options for the 4-inch lights? Halogen? (too hot) incandescent? (are these bright enough)?

Again, any and all suggestions are welcome.

Oh, and I just figured out how to link my x post in the lighting forum. So here it is. Thank you all so very much for your help.

Here is a link that might be useful: X Post Lighting Forum

Definitely using LED's. They've come a long way and I'll not go back to CFL nor halogen. Why not setup your new build with the dimmers that do it all? It is well worth it in the long run. I love the color of LED and there are so many choices now. I do not see an advantage in waiting. Since I have setup for LED, all I have to do is change a bulb as technology advances.

Otherwise, your plan looks good.

I had halogens - they are hot! If you want to sweat it out for exercise, get halogens.

bbtrix and Mags438 - you guys are so great. THANK YOU for hanging in there with me. Yeah, I can't go with the heat producing halogens. Not at my age.

which dimmers did you each get and which bulb do you have?

I posted over in Lighting that we are installing a bunch of eyeball trim throughout. My lighting store guy told me they don't make an LED bulb for that trim and I would have to use incandescent for those fixtures. How can I mix LED and incandescent in one room? Won't that be a mess with the differential in color?

One other concern/question. Kitchen, family and dining rooms are open to each other. If I go with 4-inch in the kitchen, will it look odd to use 6-inch in the other rooms?

Thanks again for all your help.

Glad to help. I know how I agonized over these decisions!

Is there a reason you're choosing eyeball trim? Where will they be located? What brand is your lighting store guy selling you? Halo has LED eyeball systems and I'm sure there's many choices if you need eyeballs. My electrician tried talking me into them as a sloped ceiling solution, but it don't care for their bulkiness. I hope David Tay gets back to you on the lighting forum.

Regarding the mix of 4" and 6", that is what I liked about your architects plan- that he had a logical distribution of light using a mix. What was it that you didn't like about that plan, too many lights?

I used Lutron dimmers. I like the sleek design.

I purchased Feit Par 38 3000k bulbs during a sale at Menards.

Here is a shot of my kitchen and dining ceiling. Lights are off in the pic but I am quite happy with the color and the 6" light spread ended up perfect. The light is evenly distributed over all my workspaces. I haven't put my floor and table lamps back into my space yet and we find the recessed lights excellent for reading.

My goal is to have the recessed lighting provide ample general and task lighting, but to recede into the background. I want the pendants and chandelier to draw the eye. There will be a ceiling fan where the cover plate is and there are two more recessed lights on the other side of the fan. I may add cove lighting above and LED strips in the glass uppers. I'm doing it myself so I'll decide once I have the rest of the lighting in and crown installed. The kitchen, living and dining is an open 24 x 24 space. I am glad I went with fewer, larger cans.

I have the EcoSmart LEDs from HD. I used one of the dimmers they list as compatible. Same with my UCL, I ordered from environmentallighting.com and bought one of their recommended dimmers. A tad more expensive than regular dimmers but not outrageous and well worth the dimming ability.

I stopped at another lighting store yesterday and have an appointment today to get their input on our plan. Also, Davidtay on the lighting forum has been super helpful so I am following up on his suggestions. I called Cree this morning for a little information. For anyone following this thread and trying to figure out lighting, I will asterisk the new information.

bbtrix: oh, pretty kitchen, and I love your stone. Is that marble or quartzite? So pretty! Thank you so much for taking the time to post the pictures. It really helps. I can really see why you wanted fewer cans and the 6" works well with your sloped ceiling. After reading your post I spent the afternoon yesterday revising my plan to install 6" cans only to read davidtay's response on the lighting forum where he mentions 4" are more elegant. (Though they would not have been in your situation as you would have had too much glare). I am still back and forth.

To answer your questions: eyeball trim: we have this now in a home that we renovated 27 years ago. We use them to illuminate the art on our walls. yes, they are bulky, but you don't get any glare and you don't see the light bulb from the rest of the room. You only see the light on the art. In our new home we have an open wall the length of our living room that will be devoted to art and we thought we would use the same eyeball type of fixture. We have similar walls in our dining and family rooms.

* unfortunately cree does not make an eyeball trim. that is the problem. I'll need to mix manufacturers. There are other trims available and I hope to resolve this one today at the lighting store. Davidtay on the lighting forum suggests purchasing the halo trim and installing a cree bulb as a possible solution. Or the halo makes the all in one package.

I posted the architect's plan on Jun 28, 14 at 17:12 - he shows four 6-inch can lights. I felt this was not enough light. The graph layouts are my proposed solutions. If I increase the number of cans, I will have to reduce size to 4" or it will be overwhelming. I will probably keep them dimmed most of the time. Do you think I should stay with the four light configuration? My kitchen is wood and soapstone where yours is mostly white.

My dining room/kitchen is 15 x 24, similar to yours. I hope I am able to create a space that I like as much as you like yours. Very nice.

Hi Williamsem: Thank you for your lighting and dimmer info. * I learned that ecosmart is a cree light manufactured specifically for HD. The woman on the phone at Cree referred me to this light - she says its a CR4 which is the one Davidtay is recommending over on the lighting forum.

Thank you all so much. Everyone's input has been so helpful and has really helped me think through the process. Not. Easy. I'll try to post an update after the lighting store.

I have received so much help from GW--happy I can give a little back. We do have 6" cans throughout our house and 4" going into the kitchen, but while the floor plan is fairly open, we don't have a continuous ceiling where you'd really see both. Our LEDs are a single fixture all encased in white, so they hide pretty well in our white ceiling. I don't think the change from space to space would be noticeable.

Our electrician supplied our cans. They are (I believe) Lithonia P Series LEDs. We've replaced all the cans in our house with these over the past two years. Waiting for the CFL bulbs we had in the old cans to slowly warm up to full brightness was problematic in a number of places (bathrooms, utility room). The Lithonia LEDs come in two color temperatures. I think we've mostly used the cooler color, as our cans tend to function as work lighting and we have lamps/other fixtures for "mood" lighting, if you will. :)

The cans are dimmable; I believe the dimmer switch (which like bbtrix's has a little slide next to the switch itself) has an internal adjuster that allows them to work with LEDs or incandescents, so it can be changed for new fixtures. But, you have to choose one type for that circuit. Our pendants/chandelier will be on a different circuit than the can lights--I am figuring there will be times we just want the pendants/chandeliers on to softly light the room (party) and other times we'll want full work lighting. (We also get a ton of daylight in the kitchen--lucky us.) We will have CREE LED bulbs in the pendants/chandelier so probably all the lights would all work on the same dimmer anyway. I quite like the CREE LED bulbs in warm color, btw.

This is definitely not an easy process, and so much depends on your decisions now.

My perimeter stone is marble, but my large island is dark wood cabs with Black Walnut countertop. But, I have a lot of natural light with the skylights and a very large picture window that is not shown in the picture. I also chose Lithonia cans, which are very flexible for bulbs and mine, I believe have a 90w max. I put my kitchen cans on one dimmer circuit, LR cans on a 2nd, pendants a 3rd, UCL a 4th, DR chandelier a 5th. All are dimmamble except the UCL which was my choice as I DIYed it and chose a remote control dimmer. The picture I posted earlier with the one dimmer is my chandelier and UCL switch. I have a 3 gang, all dimmers for the kitchen cans, LR cans, and island pendants.

Across the room, I have simple on/off for the cans.

I think you will have a lot of light around your sink with the two 4" and more on the aisle. I guess what I liked about the architects plan was the layering. It appears to have four 6" around the dining table, 4" at the sink and opposite dining wall, all the spots and pendants. How much light you end up with also depends on the capacity of the can and the bulb you choose. Did the architect have a lighting engineer assist? Your revised plan has a lot of light layering also.

When I initially researched and designed mine, I wanted the 4" for the same reason that David Tay said, with either wheat or clear Juno alzak trim so they would recede into the ceiling. Not sure if you've scoured old posts, but look at the clipping titled "Upgrade cans, hugest difference-photos" about half way done the page:
http://clippings.gardenweb.com/clippings/jemstones

Ultimately, I think 4, 5, or 6 will look fine so long as it gives you excellent light without the Swiss cheese look. The trim should help with that.

Hopefully, there is a qualified person at the lighting shop. Did you get a new plan?

Here is an old post with good info. It's the one that references the clipping above.

Here is a link that might be useful: old post that may be helpful