So.

And here's another thing: why would a KD put in a stemware rack and plate rack when you never asked them to? And the plate rack thingee is over the sink instead of the window that I drew in the outline that I gave her. Kinda strange, huh?

Anyway, can I ask for itemized costs from them?

Thanks

I didn't realize that so many places didn't itemize. Why not ask for more detail? Good luck!

Thanks

I believe you get what you ask for and if you don't, just choose to go elsewhere. It's YOUR money, not theirs. When they say "you won't understand it", just be firm that you will take the time to ensure you do.

I base my work on trying to meet a budget. If a project is coming in over then I make a list of ways we can meet it- changing this saves $1k, that saves 1500, doing this this way instead saves $2k (nobody wants ever asks me to save $100) then the client has the option to decide what things are the most important to them and how to achieve the budget.

So he gave us a price for cabinets, then had a line that said "42 inch uppers instead of 36" uppers - $1k", "upgrade to painted finish - $1000" but never gave us a breakdown of how much a 30" drawer base cost.

I would have liked to have it, since I like knowing where my money is going. I think I'm sufficiently TKO to understand it, but maybe the average customer isn't. I never asked for it directly, though, so I don't really fault him.

Otherwise it does seem a little too much like snake oil, to me, where you're paying a premium just to gain access to the computer program. Let the designer earn their salary by actually helping design, not by being the gateway troll to specialized software.

/rant, with no slurs intended to our many very fine designers on this board! But I dislike the opacity of the cabinet-buying process almost as much as the process of haggling for a new car.

We'll see what comes back and I agree with you, Circuspeanut, everything you buy has a price on it, what's the deal with the kitchen cabinet business?

I was wondering what can I say that is useful here. Few things come to mind. Deedles says "what's the deal with the kitchen cabbinet business" and that goes to one issue.
For many of us this is the kitchen design business NOT the cabinet business. Design is included- it is not free and a lot of the general public does not respect that it has a cost to the designer and is their property.
Another issue is how designers get paid. Typically a percentage of the profit, not a percentage of the sale. If you profit margin goes below a certain point your commission drops markedly. If the margin drops low enough you don't get paid at all on a job. KDs are not accountants, writers, they rarely start out as salespeople. Most come from some sort of art background. Have any artist friends? How are they with computers, schedules, spreadsheets....
KD's are almost always worried about screwing up the price and or some detail on the order. Every one I know tells stories of waking up at 3 am in a cold sweat over something they may or may not have missed. Add to that the fact that you can't usually just punch a button to get a price and the KD is worrying about getting paid. Now at a box store they CAN punch a button. That has been set up on a remote server by an IT department.
Back to the cabinet versus design business. IF you want to shop only price, or mainly price. Go in with a complete plan, bring the same one to each place, list the details, accessories, doorstyle finish etc. Tell them how you want some of the details finished. For that you should be able to get a listing of "this is what it will cost for what you are asking for" If not well walk away.
Note that if you change just a few things in that plan, suddenly the brand of cabinet that was the most expensive could become the one that is the least. That is the cabinet business.
OTOH if you want someone to do a layout, present ideas, solve problems, try to meet a budget, help with selection. Then you are not looking for someone in the cabinet business, you are looking for someone in the kitchen design business. That person will have invested at the very least half a day in your job just to get rough pricing, understand what the issues in your kitchen are and have an idea how to meet the budget. I typically put in more time than that between the first hello and the first desing meeting. To give you a list at that point is to give you my work for free. Why would that be a problem? Isn't that part of my job? There are dealers around who specialize in poaching. Take a layout or a list and lowball it for a quick sale since they don't have to invest any time.
Last thing and no one will like this but don't shoot the messenger please. I have limited resources to work. I have a life besides work. Where I used to work, with office support and sales support I could work with say 65-75 people a year and be selling about 40% of those. Nowadays (on my own) I can work with far fewer people. I've also had a run of larger and more complicated projects- multiple rooms in a house, bigger kitchens, more details. I sell a much higher percentage than I used to but have time for less people.
Every KD has some limit on their time to deal with customers. Every KD has had to learn how to be a sales person of some sort, and they get a sense of what kind of jobs are going to close. IOW who will be the customers that make it possible for them to get paid.
Hard core price shoppers are the ones with the lowest closing rate. It is generally thought that they will end up buying when they run out of time. I'm not saying they will conciously disregard you. It is human nature to invest more in what appears to be likely reward than in what appears to not be. Just because you are doing a kitchen doesn't mean that your going to buy from me. As I said, once on retainer I will provide a list for anyone who wants, they rarely do. On occasion, I have given a list to someone ahead of time. That has been when I guage that they are decent folks, I stand a good chance of getting the job, they are honestly looking for more than just a bunch of boxes, and I don't have tons of time invested into solving problems that I know the poacher couldn't solve. Even then once that list is given out I mentally cross them off the potential client list. If they come back that is nice but I do not expect it. And note that I have possibly the lowest profit margin in my region- I just don't advertise it.

On our end it comes down to what you are looking to buy, cabinets or our service. If you are talking to a serious KD they sell service accompanied by cabinets.

Cabinet hardware (soft-close vs. non, etc.), materials (plywood vs. MDF or furniture board or whatever it is), cabinet material (oak vs. cherry vs. maple), style (inset vs. partial overlay vs. full overlay) and finish (stained vs. painted vs. painted+distressing) seemed to be the biggest price differences. What you really need first is a good layout, then you can figure out whether or not you need all the "upgrades" that will cost more money.

FWIW,
bean

If you are focusing on price as the main decider for your choice here, then you will surely manage to find the cheapest choice, and I do mean that in the pejorative manner. Where choosing an actual KD first can help you is in finding the best value. The two are NOT the same. If you come to me and tell me that your budget is 15K for cabinets and this is your wish list of how it should look and what features you want, then I have enough available lines in which to design to be able to get you what you want at the price you tell me. If you go to Bubba's Discount with a "layout" and request pricing, he'll come back with the cheapest line with the cheapest choices, and maybe you get all excited about only spending 7K on your "dream kitchen". Then, once you're hooked, he'll come back with the add ons and you'll be at 17K before you're finished with that. When you shop on price primarily, that's the game you are inviting others to play.

Do enough research to find out the features that are important to you and which of a dozen cabinet lines can give you those features. Then approach KDs who represent those lines and talk to them. Ask them about your layout and what they think of it first, and then ask them to ballpark the price as is. From that conversation, you can get an idea if the person is both creative and truthful. You want to further explore a relationship with the person who offers you suggestions as well as doesn't blow smoke about the cost of your dream list. You're not going to get stacked cabinets with glass in a painted finish and all kinds of drawers and pull outs for 7K, and if you do get a quote like that, it's time to RUN from whomever gives it to you. It's not realistic.

Once you decide on a KD, then ask them how to achieve the look you want with your budget. Doing it the other way around, where you demand the list and start cutting, is the WRONG way to do it. Let the expert wield the scalpel if needed rather than you trying to educate yourself enough to do your own open heart surgery. The expert can guide you through which of your choices are driving the price up and let you evaluate your attachment to those features. Overall, paint is usually a 15-30% upcharge depending on if you want plain paint or paint plus glazing or distressing, etc. For most, that's a non negotiable upgrade as it drives the entire look of the kitchen.

But sometimes, you just have to bite the bullet and pay the cost to be the boss. If you have a relatively large kitchen and want certain features, they are just gonna cost you and you have to find a way to afford what you want if you really do want it.