I'm not a layout expert, but I'll jump in with a couple of comments just to start the ball rolling. My kitchen is close to the same size as yours so I think it's all about packing in as much as you can comfortably and with good clearances. I like the overall layout and your work triangle. It would help if you would post all entrances and walls. I'm not sure what's on the opposite side of the long wall. I assume the top left is an entry way.

1. Assuming that on your island, the blocked off area that says seating is 12" of counter overhang, I'm concerned about the passageway between the island and the fridge & nearby wall. It looks like it's only 30" - If that's the case, it's awfully narrow.

2. The microwave is a long ways away from everything besides the fridge. Is there any chance of fitting it on the other side of the fridge? I can't tell exactly what is wall and what is available space

3. If the opposite side of the refrigerator/microwave/storage area is a wall, could you fit a pantry there?

It will be fun to see what the layout guru's here have to say - best wishes!

It seems pretty good to me. Will you have uppers or a pantry anywhere to give you additional storage? What is to the left of the island?

I think the difference in counter depth will work just fine, and is a smart idea.

Thanks for your comments, Chefkev and rhome410. I'll post an updated version of the layout (with more detail) soon.
Rose

I also like it, but am wondering if the refrigerator is too far from the range? That said, I'm not sure of how to change it and still get a big refrigerator in. Would it help to add a refrigerated drawer somewhere, but that wouldn't be for cooking supplies, so I don't know if you'd gain anything.

I've updated this post with two more versions of the floorplan, based on people's input. I've also added more detail regarding general orientation in the house. Like Allison, I wondered if the fridge was too far from the range. In Version III, I've brought the fridge closer to the main cooking area, but I've had to go down to a 24" all fridge. (It's just two of us here so that may be enough space.) But with that version, I had to do a blind corner cabinet rather than the more accessible Lazy Susan cabinet. The trash also gets moved further out, but I find I'm creating more compost than trash these days. I also had to decrease the countertop space from 30 inches to 26 on the short side of the "L". (I was hoping to have a 30" countertop to allow room for small appliances.) And finally, if I go stainless stell with the fridg, I'll have two SS appliances next to each other. (DW & fridge) If that looks weird, I guess I can panel the fridge (not my first choice). I can't have it all, and I just have to figure out what features matter most to me! I'm curious to know which version people prefer.

Regarding the microwave, I don't use it that much, and since I have limited cabinet space, I'd rather than have it in the main cooking area.

Chefkev, I agree about the narrow space between the island and the fridge (Version II). The house juts in at that spot, so unfortunately I can't have all of the appliances/cabs flush along the long side of the "L". (I don't yet know how much wiggle room I have.) In Version III, I've put in 18-inch deep cabinets which provides more clearance. The 24-inch deep freezer sticks out which may be a little odd. (Hard to get it all perfect!)

Regarding upper cabinets, yes, I'll have some (now labeled), but I'm quite limited on storage space. I'm hoping to store the less-frequently used items near the freezer.

I'm also posting two before shots to give you a sense of the space. Picture 1: An island will go where the table is. The wall behind the table will be knocked down (eventually). I plan to do this in two phases - I won't knock down the interior wall until phase 2 due to budget constrains. Picture 2: This wall will have the sink and dishwasher. I'm struggling the most with this section.

By the way, I really appreciate everyone's feedback! I've been reading and thinking about this project for months, and it's so exciting to see it come to life. The information on this site is often more practical and helpful than what I read in magazines!
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I like version III better, I like that the fridge is a little closer (although I don't think the distance in version II is a problem) and I think you are way better off with the 36"+ passageway rather than the 30" one. I like the all fridge separate freezer strategy. You're ending up with more total refrigeration space and probably more freezer space too - a definite plus in my book. It wouldn't bother me to have the two appliances next to each other, but let's see what the TKO's have to say. I sure got a lot of great advice from them. The one thing I'm bummed out about is losing the lazy susan. I have a supersusan in almost the same location and I just love it. You can fit a ton of stuff down there and it's pretty easy to get to. Is there any chance you could move to a 30" sink base and fit both the recycling and the compost underneath? What's the plumbing look like down there? I fit both my recycling and a trash pullout underneath my 33" sink base by going with a sink with drains towards the rear and a compact GD. Lastly, I can't see how you can fit even a small table by the french doors and have clearances that will allow you both to enter through the doors and access the island, perhaps someone else can. Probably you have already seen it, but just in case you haven't I am including the helpful link I found on GW to the National Kitchen and Bath Association Guidelines which are great for things like aisles, seating clearances... Best wishes!

Here is a link that might be useful: NKBA Guidelines

I worry a little about the sink size you'll end up with. In a kitchen this size, I'd keep the trash and compost under the sink, maximize the sink and sink cab size as much as possible and put the lazy susan back in the corner. You gain better access to the corner storage as well as gaining 3" or so on each wall for your other storage.

I think it's no problem at all to separate the fridge and freezer.

I just re-read ChefKev's comments more thoroughly and see that I have repeated his thoughts almost exactly. So 2 votes for the same viewpoint. :-)

Will you have another door to the garden, plus French doors?

Thanks for the terrific feedback, Chefkev and Rhome! (Funny, Rhome, I've read a lot of your posts, and I just now got your penname!) I think you're both right - I was allotting too much space for the compost/recycling combo. And since I have no plumbing there now, I can design any way I want. By combining them together, I was able to get the lazy susan back. For the heck of it, I tried reversing the DW and sink, but I think the sink may be too far from the range. (But that would avoid having two SS appliances together.)Any thoughts on that? Also, I had to go down on the sink. One thing I'm not getting is this need for such a large sink. I can always put large baking trays in the DW, right? I may be missing something.
Chefkev, I think you're right about not being able to fit a table. I've sort of ignored that piece because it's phase II. But since I have a nice dining room and the island seating, I'm ok with having just a window or doors.
Regarding the doors, I'm also not sure what I'm going to do. It's an old house, and for some reason, has multiple doors in the kitchen. (I've shown where the other one is on the left wall.) I may not be dealing with that until the year 2020!
Thanks again for your help! I'm hoping I'm moving into the home stretch.
Rose
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It's me again. I'm also posting two visuals of Version IV and V. I'm not sure I like how Version IV looks, but perhaps it will look better with some cabinetry around the fridge. Sorry, I'm not too good with the Better Homes and Gardens software! By the way, I unfortunately don't have the same views as what BH&G has given me :)

By the way, Rhome, which do you think is more important? Having a bigger sink (eg 30" cabinet) or a deeper countertop (ie 30" rather than 26)? Thanks!

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When you switch the sink and DW, you have no counter between fridge and sink...That's no good. You should have counter on both sides of the sink. Additionally, I wouldn't want part of the sink under the window, and part not.

If it were me, I'd go for the larger sink over the deeper countertop. You have the island if you need more counter, but if you want more sink, there's no way to get that.

I would actually prefer only a 36" aisle between the island and range if you plan to use the island for prep work. Still a decent aisle, but it makes it nicer for turning from island to stove and back. This would also allow you to make the island longer if you wanted. The only reason I wouldn't decrease that aisle, I guess, is if you think someone else will access the 2nd oven/warming drawer while you are at the range.

You said you don't understand the need for a large sink, so here is some of my reasoning: Some things need to be soaked and it's hard to soak things that can't lie flat. You'll want to fit baking pans, skillets with handles, etc., besides being able to work around things that are in the sink. If it's large enough, you can segregate it into sections with dishpans or colanders for your prep work, or so you can wash and rinse. I've had times where I wished for a larger sink, but never for a smaller one. ;-)

Ditto rhome410 on everything. Regarding going down to a 36" aisle between the island and range, if you're running a one person show it will work great, but I like cooking with more than one person so I would leave it at 42". Also looking at the picture of your island, it looks like you have two counter heights. If that's the case, I think one height is much more useful. One height is much better for prep and for baking - any time you want to put something like a pot or pan on the break it will be unstable.

One last thing. If you really can go with a window instead of french doors, you could actually put a narrow table by the window, but I agree that you may not need it with the island seating and the dining room. However, what about putting bookcases underneath the window, or even better (from my perspective) a set of 18" base cabs with a 36"-40" counter? It would give you some extra storage and a shallow counter overlooking a window. Curious what you think.

Rhome, that the sink explanation makes perfect sense. I was forgetting to factor in the handles on pots and pans. (Thinking about it, currently when I soak a pan, I leave it on the counter because it doesn't fit in my sink.)
Regarding the 36" aisle between the range and island, I initally had it at 39", but when I tried out opening an oven door at the appliance store, the sales guy and I thought that I needed 41-42". It certainly would be nice to pivot from cooktop to prep area. I initially had a prep sink in the island, but I didn't seem to have the space for it. (Plus, it's an extra expense.)
Chefkev,
Regarding the uneven island height, it's actually my ineptitude with the design software. (Or else it's lousy software design.) My intention is to have it as one height. Your idea about the narrow countertop near the window is a great one. Just so I'm clear, you were thinking 18" deep and 36-40" high? One could have a cup of coffee and enjoy the view. (One of these days I'll fix up the garden to get that nice view.)
Thanks to both of you writing in at this late hour!
Rose

I'm posting another version because the one issue I have with Version IV is that a 24" all fridge seems awfully small to me. It has only 13.1 cu ft of space. A 30" all fridge has about 17 cubic ft, so I thought I'd aim for that. I see now that the way the perimeter of the house goes is messing me up. Version VI only will work if I'm able to use some space behind the wall. (My carpenter will check that out this week.) It was helpful to look at the NKBA guidelines - the fridge was indeed too far according to their guidelines. I've moved it in Version VI so that it just meets their guideline (9 ft from range). I've also brought back the compost cabinet (drawer). I feel that the compost under the sink is a bit fussy, especially when loading the DW. (This cabinet will also have an additional 12" high drawer below, so it does double duty.) It's not a deal breaker though. I know also that the sink isn't centered but I'm ok with that. You may also noticed that the fridge is to the left of the freezer. (Not typical, I think.) I don't see a problem with it, and it makes sense. I use the fridge much more than the freezer so I may as well have it closer to the cooking zone.
I've included the V6 floor plan and a visual.
Thanks for any help (if you haven't gotten too sick of my plan yet!)
Rose
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I've helped people with plans over the span of a couple years, so you're far short of tiring me out! :-)

This is looking pretty good. (The rendering doesn't match the plan?) If you'd like the range to look more centered on the wall, you could swap the 24" and 18" cabinets.

I would measure the planned appliances and see how much room you really want between range and island. I have a rangetop, so don't have to worry about opening an oven. The other thing to consider, probably, is pulling the range out for cleaning, repair, or replacement. Probably better to have the aisle too roomy than too tight.

I certainly think it's better to have the fridge closer to the work area than the freezer.

I think that once you confirm whether or not you can accomplish this latest plan, something quite nice can be designed for the window wall that also incorporates your microwave area.

That's wonderful that you do this, rhome. You've helped me tremendously! In Version 7, I've centered the range, and it definitely looks better! I now understand why some people can have the island closer than others - I guess I'll need to go back to 41" due to the range. I've moved the microwave above the dishwasher. Were you referring to something like what I've done? At any rate, I like it. I guess it would seem odd to have the microwave way off to one corner.

Yes, I think the rendering doesn't exactly match the floor plan. I think (but I'm not sure) that I have more room than what the BH&G is showing me. The software apparently makes adjustments when you create the perimeter of the space. This software is way harder than the marketing literature would have you believe!

Thanks again for your help! If I can do version 7 (see images), would you say that's the one to go with?

Thanks,
Rose

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Love version VII. Looks like it's really coming together. RE the window and counter, you have quite a few good options, you could put in a bar height counter or bookcases. I like rhome410's about designing something for the window wall that also incorporates your microwave area. I would personally go with 18" deep base cabs and a 36" counter for the extra storage and counter space (I'm guessing that 24" base cabs would mess with side clearances). Could be a nice place to put drinks and/or desserts if you have a buffet and the apps and main dishes are on the island. Sure hope you can get that wall removed - the bigger fridge would definitely be a huge plus.

Hello--
I like your plan, as it seems very similar to something I am considering. I wondered, though, if what you have marked as "entryway" is the main way into the kitchen? and is it an existing doorway? It measures as 24" (if I'm figuring right) wide on your plan, and that seems very narrow to me. Is that right? Just curious.
Louise

You're definitely getting there. While having the microwave there will be easier to access from the kitchen, I think it will be in a space that will be valuable for storing glasses and cups, and I'm afraid it's not a large enough space anyway. I meant that you should be able to have your microwave on the wall by the freezer and also have the counter ChefKev is suggesting, which sounds so useful and a cool use of the area.

I use the parent software for the BH&G design software, so maybe I can help. What version do you have?

Thanks rhome. I agree that I'll need the area by the window for storage. I've created version 8 which has the microwave back by the freezer. Or are you thinking of something different? The BH&G software I'm using is "Architectural Home Designer 8.0 (Build 8.5.5.15).

Thanks again,
Rose

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Hmm. I thought you'd have a different looking floorplan with that software. Tell me the colors, materials, and styles you're hoping for and I'll see what I can do on my end.

Cabinet material, color, door style, height of uppers.

What height are your ceilings?

Do you want crown molding?

Counter type and color.

Wall and floor color/material.

Window color and style.

Some overall dimensions would be nice, and I'm trying to figure out how the pantry fits into the new layout and where its door would be.

That's so kind of you to help me!

Ok, let's see if I can give as much detail as possible.
Dimensions:
I've created a diagram. I've taken the dimensions multiple times (including tonight), and I now understand why it's confusing. It's an old home and has quite a few zigs and zags. Let me if that doesn't work for you. (I had to make the image quite small to make it all fit.)

Here are the colors I plan to use:
Countertop: CeasarStone Desert Limestone (2200)
Cabinets: Kraftmaid Cherry in Autumn Blush. Hayward style (shaker style).
Floors: Forbo marmoleum but not sure of the color. Looking at Wine barrel with a strip of Lapponia (it follows the perimeter)
Wall cabinet height: 42"
Simple molding on the wall cabinets.
Wall color: I haven't picked that out yet. For now, let's say a mocha color.
Window color and style: Trim is white. The style is simple, double-paned with maybe a 3 inch trim.

I would love to know how you do this. I've been so disappointed with the software, but maybe I just haven't moved far enough along the learning curve.

Thanks again, Rhome!
Rose

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Rhome,
I forgot to include the ceiling height. It's 111 inches (9.25 feet).

Thanks
Rose

I will work on this tomorrow (Monday) and see if I can get something that's more like what you had in mind to look at. If you see what I can do, maybe we can help you figure out how to accomplish something similar with your software. As I said, I'm not quite sure how you're creating the floorplans, since I expected the layouts to look like the green and yellow floorplans shown in the samples on the website for the software. I think you'll find it to be pretty user friendly and also pretty amazing once you get the hang of it and learn a few tricks.

Here is a link that might be useful: Architectural Home Designer samples

Things I noticed:

-I didn't get much room for the cabinet between sink and fridge
-You'd have to be careful about what microwave you got, since most open with the hinge on the left...Which is difficult for that spot.
-You might want to adjust the cabinets on either side of the stove to make sure the uppers look nice.
-There might be a tight spot by the corners of the island and fridge.
-I should have centered the seating area and window on the end wall.

But it's a start.

Other way round - just to irritate everyone.
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Oh my gosh, Rhome, that's fabulous! I feel like I should pay you!!! I clearly don't know how to work this software. You even changed the views (I'm glad to see I no longer live in the country!)
I see now what you're talking about regarding the seating by the window facing the garden. And that gives me a lot more cabinet space so I wouldn't have to worry about fitting everything in or getting rid of things. Now that you've made everything look so symmetrical and beautiful, what stands out to me is the off-centered sink that I previously said I didn't care about. Maybe I should reconsider my compost drawer. If I reduced the size of the 15" cabinet to the left of the sink, the sink would look more centered and I'd have more space between the fridge and sink.
Thanks a million, Rhome! Your help has been invaluable!!!
Rose

Hi bmorepanic,

I see. You've switched the fridge with the range. What are the advantages for doing that? Perhaps one advantage is that if I do a remote blower, it can go directly to the outside without any turns. One thing I should I also say is that the view on the sink side is not that great - it's a typical urban view of a fairly close house next door. (But I could pretty it up with some gardening touches.) The other view is better since it's to my backgarden. (Not sure if you were taking that into consideration.)

Thanks for your input!
Rose

I'm glad it helped...but you should be able to make something similar, so I hope I can help you figure out how. You can email me through 'my page' if you'd like.

If you don't absolutely need the cabinets on either side of the window, it would sure look nicer to do away with them, running the stove wall uppers straight right, without coming around the corner.

Part of the issue with the sink has to do with faucet placement, and depending on the actual sink you choose, that may help (or not) about the centering issue. You could get one of those sinks with the attached drainboard, or you could do runnels or something else in the counter to make the sink area appear wider while not taking up more cabinet space.

I've really enjoyed this thread because the shape and dimensions you're working with are almost exactly like my kitchen project! I've been tweaking mine like crazy, so stumbling across these comments has been very affirming for me. I'm just wondering if there's been any new developments in your plan?

My setup is actually a lot like bmorepanic's. It can be advantageous to have your dining area near the stove, but it appears that you already have it set up that way, so I wouldn't change it.

Neil
Congrats on your remodel
Looks like you have a lovely older home! - What yr was it built, and what type is the home?

Curious you indicated "The wall behind the table will be knocked down (eventually). I plan to do this in two phases - I won't knock down the interior wall until phase 2 due to budget constrains"
What will be going there once the wall comes down?

What is the framed out window type thingy behind your food processor?
Have you peeked under your sheet flooring to see if there might be some nice orig hw flooring?

Best of luck

Hi Peace Rose,
I'm attaching the latest iteration of my kitchen plan. I find that if I keep thinking about it, it keeps morphing (which is not always a good thing). This latest version has an eating area (instead of a row of cabinets) by the garden window. I think I've had this image of having breakfast looking out to the garden, and I just didn't want to give that up.
Jev,
My home was built in 1906, just after the 1906 San Francisco quake. (I'm in the SF Bay Area.) I've never found out what the particular style is, and I'd love to know. I know what it's not, though. I don't think it's Victorian, Edwardian, or Queen Anne. (Are there any other royals that I'm missing.) I would say it's along the lines of a craftman style home, although it's not quite as chunky looking as some of the craftsman homes in my area.

Behind the wall is just the eating area next to the garden window. My screenshots don't show the interior wall.

I'm glad you brought up the framed out window behind the food processor. I call it the "pass through" although it may have a more formal name. The hired helped passed the food through to the dining room, I guess. (These days, the hired help is yours truly.) Everyone is telling me to remove it because it's not practical, but I'm a little sad to take away some of the original charm. Anyway, that's a subject for a separate post. I'll try to get some better pictures. And the floor underneath is just plywood, but that's ok, because I've been quite set on linoleum.
Thanks for the encouragement! The process is fun, but it does tend to bring out my obsessive compulsive tendencies :)
Rose
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