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Help with new build kitchen design!

m5askqu5
9 years ago

I am at a loss for what to do with our kitchen. I just don't feel like our current layout is functional. Thoughts?

We have four young kids...

Comments (31)

  • m5askqu5
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    The entire plan...

  • greenhaven
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Why don't you start with what you like and don't like about it?

  • m5askqu5
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    The layout in general doesn't seem flowing. I'd love a good sized window over my sink, by then I lose upper cabinet space. Picturing where I'd put cups and plates. Love the corner pantry- need that space. I like the walkway by it too, but can do without if necessary. Have never had a cooktop in island. Maybe it's just different than what I'm used to. I don't do well with change :) and we're building...ha!

  • greenhaven
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I would definitely agree that a big window would be fabulous. Do you know how tight you would be on space if the uppers came down or were reduced in size? Are there seldom- or infrequently-used things going into kitchen storage now that could be stored somewhere more out of the way?

    Also, where is your oven? Is it an integrated stove or do you have wall ovens somewhere? I am asking because it helps determine the storage you will have in the island, and because if you have an integrated stove you do not want it across from your dishwasher. Then the two doors have high potential to interfere with each other.

    If you have quality drawer base beside your sink and near your DW dishes can go in those quite readily. I do not know about glasses, though. Frankly I have little experience with dish drawers, but have read an awful lot about others' experiences.

  • m5askqu5
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I was looking into the slide in stoves with the oven beneath. Like a typical range but a flat top. So all in the island. I need a decent amount of space in uppers for plates on one side and cups on the other (of the sink).

    Considering a few crank out windows over the sink since they're slimmer and taller.

    I've never seen a dish drawer...something I'd have to get used to! I'm odd school. Traditional.

  • bpath
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Well, you nixed my first thought when you said you like the corner pantry, but here goes anyway: see the cabinets on the lower wall? What if they were, instead, a wide reach in pantry (and I'd probably make it shallow), and you replace the corner pantry with cabinets? All your counter space is together for flow, and you have nearly as much pantry shelf space, and it may even be easier to use since it's not as deep. There's already a large room labeled "laundry pantry" right across the hall.

  • huango
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    This is a new build? so many things can move?

    W/ 4 young kids and no "real" dining room, that Breakfast nook is too tiny. I would definitely make it bigger.

    That's a generous size for laundry. so I would put in 2 big closets as my pantry, and remove that step-in pantry to make that short wall of cabinets longer. Then I would put the cleanup sink/DW there, along with dishes/glasses in base-drawers so the kids can reach for them themselves, along w/ emptying the DW chores (what my 8 and 10yrs do now).
    Then I would move flip the sink to the island and stove to the back wall. it's safer there, when you have the 4 kids sitting at island doing homework while you're trying to get dinner ready.
    I had a stove on my peninsula w/ stools and no one could sit there from all my cooking/splashing: sauce/frying/hot water/hot cooktop=scary w/ kids.

    It took me over a year to get my final layout which I totally LOVE! many iterations, like 73.

    good luck,
    Amanda

  • m5askqu5
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    bpathome: I'm open to other arrangements with pantry space. I just thought with four kids, a corner pantry was the best bet to utilize the space and would be cost efficient.

    huango: yes, new build. I really wanted a window over my sink. It's one of the only things I really, really wanted. Pretty flexible/open to other thoughts though. Our current dining is 13x11.5. You're right...this one could be bigger. I've never had a cooktop in an island. I see what you're saying with the safety issue. Hmm. Not sure what else to do other than close off the walkway and put the stove on that wall.

  • debrak2008
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    The corner cabinet is something builders just throw in even though it interupts the flow of the counters.

    Just me but I would ditch the pantry. Close up the opening from the kitchen to hallway or at least move it down. Put the stove and sink on the outside wall and the fridge on the short wall of the L.

    Also, your aisle seem tight? Hard to tell the measurements from the diagram.

  • bpath
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Something like this, DebraK? The pantry is now a closet just off the kitchen, stealing some space from the big laundry, and there's still room in the laundry for less-used pantry items. But it could just as easily be next to the fridge, there's plenty of room there.

    I kept the sink on the perimeter, just 'cause it can be next to the DW with dish storage adjacent or above. ...and when I've had the sink near the stove, I've liked it, my own personal pref :)

    Hmm, I think I stretched the counters into the DR too much.

  • lavender_lass
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    If you can take out the doorway to the laundry...you could make this a basic L-shape plan with fridge, dishwasher and sink on one side and cooktop and ovens on the other.

    The island could be for prep and easily seat 4. You might be able to move the pantry (as suggested earlier) and put the pocket door to the laundry in the middle...with pantry cabinets on each side. Lots of storage!

    Also...just an idea, but the fireplace could be nice on the other wall (seen from the kitchen) and have windows on the back wall. Hope this helps :) {{gwi:1872628}}From Kitchen plans

  • crl_
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I'm not much help on layouts, but just wanted to mention with young kids, you may want to consider plate, bowl and glass storage in drawers in lower cabinets. My ten year old has been able to fix his own breakfast for years now, I just keep the cereal bowls and cereal down low. My four year old can help set the table. And so on. It is really, really handy for them to have access to things that make them more independent and able to help me.

  • debrak2008
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Dishes in drawers! I like both plans from bpathhome and LL.

    Have you actually laid out the laundry room? Don't waste space there if it is not functional.

  • avossohouse
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    My eat in is 12x11 and I wish it were even a foot bigger. If you can do built in seating on one of the walls it would give you some more room too.
    With 4 small kids, just keep the range away from the island if at all possible. You may want more than what looks like a 36" aisle.

  • missingtheobvious
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Widening the kitchen and dining nook by 1-2' gives you more space in the dining nook plus wider aisles in the kitchen area -- really a must around the stove! -- plus another 1-2' of counter space.

    What size is your dining table? Do you ever need to add leaves for holiday meals? How wide and deep are the chairs? Is the dining area/patio deep enough to accommodate the length of the table (plus chairs at the head and foot, plus walk-around space)?

  • huango
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    questions:
    1. Could you extend your patio all the way down to the master?
    Then have french doors in the master that opens onto the deck = VERY NICE.

    2. where do the kids play/swing set?
    by the patio or the back of the garage (where the sink overlooks)?
    My sink overlooks by backyard where kids play.
    but w/ your layout, if the kids play by the patio, I would rather have the sink at at the island while i prep and look out at at the kids, than face the garage.

  • _sophiewheeler
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    The biggest problem is an overall design issue with the whole home, not just the kitchen. The rooms are almost all poorly proportioned and too wide for their depth. Almost square rooms are ungainly. They should be more rectangular, with a minimum of 36'' pathways for flow through them. Traffic patterns aren't being paid enough attention to in combination with real furniture placement. You'll find placing that furniture to be awkward. Having the people who use the furniture move through the space will be difficult as well.

    The eating area is cut off and has no circulation, and is of incorrect proportions. The island cooking station is awkwardly too large for the space, yet isn't large enough to successfully work as the prep zone and cooking zone combined. Plus there is no water source there. Prepis 70% of the time spent in a kitchen, and cooking is only 10%. This won't be a social kitchen for the cook, because the prep will occur next to the sink, with the cook's back turned to the room. The island needs to be a minimum of 12' long to get cooking, prep with water access, and seating on one end so you can avoid the diner birds on a wire bit. Then add in the aisle clearance, and you're at 20' of length with a galley setup. You want an L with cabinets across from one of the short ends of the island and you're at 22' needed to do it correctly.

    Putting the kitchen where you have the dining area woud make more overall flow sense for the home. Then put the range on the perimeter between 2 windows, and the sink on one the other exterior walls. Then all you need is a good pantry space to make up for the loss of wall cabinets.

  • m5askqu5
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    hollysprings: thanks for your input. Do you mind doing a quick sketch with your ideas? I'm open to different layouts- my goal is to be flowing, a "social" cook :) and just more family friendly. I appreciate your help...even if it's a sketch on a scrap piece of paper. Thanks!

    huango: we're trying to not go overboard on costs with the build, so doubtful we'll extend the patio, although I agree if would be very nice! Swingset would be out beyond the living room, maybe to the left a bit. We have 2.5 lots (230'x140' total) and not sure if we'll center the house or it'll sit closer to the right (east) edge...less of of driveway that way. So we'd end up with a larger side yard, to the left (west) of the house.

    This post was edited by m5askqu5 on Sat, May 10, 14 at 14:14

  • Buehl
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Here's an idea...

    This should accommodate a family of 6 (2 adults, 4 children) and other family and friends.

    The DR is 3' wider to accommodate a bigger table and, in case you want a china cabinet, you can split the windows and have a china cabinet on the far left wall.

    Aisles are wide enough for multiple people to be prepping, cooking, and cleaning up - all at the same time. You may not need room for multiple cooks/workers now, but sometime soon you will probably begin teaching your children how to cook/bake and cleanup. :-)

    The pantry is over 12' long and 4' deep with a run of 12" deep counters along the 12' wall and cabinets on the sides for other uses. An alternate could be cabinets in the middle with shelves on either side and along the side walls.

    There's a 2-bin trash pullout for trash & recyclables in the island so it is in the Prep Zone as well as across from the Cooking Zone. The Cleanup Zone has a 1-bin pullout for trash. You generate far more trash and recyclables while prepping and cooking than you do cleaning up and, in general, it's mostly trash when cleaning up.

    The primary Prep Zone is in the island so you can be "part of the action" (or at least observe it!). Note that 70% or more of your time spent in the kitchen is spent prepping - so it makes sense to have it in the most desirable location - assuming it's not also in an aisle that has through traffic or even kitchen traffic.

    BTW...I second the recommendation that you move your fireplace to the wall opposite the kitchen. It's nice to be able to see the fire when cooking or baking. Fires are one of the "perks" of winter!

    The range is on the back wall - since only 10% of the time spent working in the kitchen is spent actually applying heat to food (a.k.a., cooking!) and it's the zone it's best to protect b/c of hot food, heat, etc., the back wall is the best place for the Cooking Zone - plus it's a lot easier and cheaper to vent outside when the range & hood are on an outside wall.

    Note that the range is flanked by windows. These windows are counter-height to maximize light, view, and to make it more pleasant to work there.

    I would consider making the back wall a "focal point" with a nice hood, etc.

    The Refrigerator is located so it's easily accessed from the DR and the Kitchen. This location is also ideal in that you do not have to cross the Cleanup Zone to get to it from the Prep & Cooking Zones (yes, minimizing zone-crossing is a design best practice!) Note that the refrigerator is 42" wide. A 36" wide counter-depth is most likely not going to be big enough for your family - especially when your children hit their teens! If you don't have a second refrigerator elsewhere, I think you should seriously consider a 42" wide refrigerator. If you do have a second refrigerator, then a 36" should be fine here. You could then add another 3" to each of the windows flanking the range. BTW, don't put a second refrigerator in the garage unless you plan to heat/cool the garage. You could put one in the Mudroom, the Laundry Room, or the basement. I would not put it in the pantry either b/c pantries should be kept cool and refrigerators give off a lot of heat!

    The MW is a drawer in the island. It's on the end, near the refrigerator (where most MW'd food comes from), and near a water source. This means that it's located where the food will be coming from and yet on the periphery where both snackers and cooks can access it without getting in each others way. This location will make it easier and safer for children to use it when they're ready. Until they're ready, MW drawers have "child locks" to prevent children from playing with them. (Look for child locks for your range as well.)

    The island has a wonderful expanse of counter for crafts, baking, group cookie baking & decorating, buffets, gift wrapping, and future homework/science fair projects/other activities.

    (To see a bigger version of a picture, click on it.)


    Zones...

  • m5askqu5
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Buehl: I cannot tell you how much I appreciate your work on this! I am honestly to tears, I'm so stressed about getting it just right. The reason I had my sink under a window was to be able to see the kids while they're outdoors (the older ones) and just because I love a window over my sink. We were trying to save $ by not having an additional sink in the island. I'm okay with a basic, simple island. Could we just switch the range and main sink? I've never had a "zone" kitchen. Anyway...I truly appreciate your expertise.

    Things I would love: corner pantry, window over sink, island with enough seating for four (two more if possible on ends), we'll have a range/oven combo, microwave above. This isn't a "high end" build. It's not the cheapest either, but we are looking to be around $200k, doing some of the work ourselves.

    This post was edited by m5askqu5 on Sun, May 11, 14 at 17:43

  • _sophiewheeler
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Cleanup is 20% of the time you spend in your kitchen. Cooking is 10%. Prep is 70%. Bueh'l layout is 1000% more functional (and cheaper to do) than the layout that began this thread.

    You can certainly view your children through the two flanking window. I don't get why you think you wouldn't be able to. And when they are in the kitchen learning cooking from you, there will be room for all with several different prep locations and multiple acces to water.

    The cooktop on the island layout that you started out with is dysfuntional for any but a single cook kitchen, and the island ventilation is a heck of a lot more expensive than a prep sink---which will be bugely useful. In short, Buehl's layout gives you everything you say you want.

  • debrak2008
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Don't get hung up on a corner pantry. Also please consider NOT putting the mw over the range and instead put it somewhere else and getting a real vent hood.

  • m5askqu5
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    If "Cleanup is 20% of the time you spend in your kitchen. Cooking is 10%. Prep is 70%..." then would it not be just as okay/functional to switch the stove and sink? I'm stuck on having my sink under a window. Where I'd spend 10% more of my time according to your statistics.

    I am okay with not having a corner pantry, if it's not do-able, it's something I can work around. I just envision a kitchen and every pic I love has a sink under the window...plants on a shelf in it. More traditional I suppose.

  • Buehl
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    You spend 80% or more of your time prepping and cooking. Only 20% or less is spent cleaning up. The paradigm of having a sink under the window is a holdover from the pre-Dishwasher days - when people spent far more time at the sink washing and then drying dishes by hand.

    The problem with simply switching the two zones (Cooking and Cleanup) is that now you have:

    1. Introduced zone-crossing (trying to get to the refrigerator from the Cooking Zone or Prep Zone - dodging an open DW door or maneuvering around someone cleaning up at the sink on the way to/from the refrigerator

    2. Made it more difficult to prep at the island b/c now:

    3. You have no water on the island (if no prep sink) - water and sink are major components of a Prep Zone - water for prepping (and cooking) as well as water + sink for cleaning/rinsing vegetables, fruit, etc.

    4. You have to work around an open DW door sticking out into the aisle behind you (don't back into it!)

    5. You have to maneuver around someone else trying to work at the sink

    6. The Cooking Zone is now around the corner from the Prep Zone - unless you use the counter b/w the sink and range. In fact, with no sink in the island and the island''s awkward location with respect to the Cooking Zone, that counter will become your primary Prep Zone - regardless of your plans

    1. The Cleanup Zone is now too far away from dish storage - unless you use drawers in the island to store your dishes & glasses

    With all of these issues, you will need a much wider aisle b/w the island and the perimeter - probably 51" or so - you've made that aisle a major thoroughfare in the kitchen instead of the protected aisle it should be b/c it contains the main cooking appliance (range) and someone wielding a knife or carrying a pot of boiling water to the sink to dump.

    Without a prep sink in the island, it's probably not going to get much use for prepping b/c of the lack of water added to it's location with respect to the Cooking Zone.

    As far as saving $$ by not putting in a second sink - the cost of a prep sink is actually rather small, especially if you don't go overboard and get a very expensive sink and/or fixtures. One caveat - if you're on a slab and you have to jackhammer into the slab to run plumbing lines, then it becomes a more expensive proposition. However, if you have a basement or crawl space or it's a new build (as in your case), then the cost of the sink + plumbing is not that much.

    You can still have plants in the window.

    What you should be asking yourself is - how functional is the layout? You're already spending a great deal of money on the kitchen, don't put in a dysfunctional kitchen just b/c you're trying to save a few pennies (compared to the cost of everything else). To me, spending a lot of money on a kitchen that does not function well is waste of money - but YMMV.

    We are trying to design a kitchen for you that will work today and in the future when those 4 young children are older and trying to work in the kitchen at the same time - and that time is not that far away!


    All that being said, stay tuned for more designs!

  • Buehl
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Here's one idea....

    Added back the corner pantry, moved the Cleanup Zone to the "top" wall, rotated the island 90 degrees so it can still be useful as a Prep Zone.

    Another addition...the window behind the sink is counter-height and is bumped out 9". The counters are also 3" deeper (28.5" deep) with deeper cabinets so you can have a Dish Hutch in the Cleanup Zone and next to the DR.

    The deeper counters will give you more work space as well as more room for fixtures.

    The 9" bumpout will provide more room for plants in the window as well as reduce splashing of the window. Just be aware that if you get windows that block UV radiation that some plants will die in the window b/c of the lack of UV light. Not all plants need UV light, but some do. (Spider plants do not, for example.)

    With the island turned, you can prep at the island facing all windows either straight on or by turning slightly - ditto for facing the LR.

    {{gwi:1872634}}


    Zone Map...

    {{gwi:1872636}}

    This post was edited by buehl on Tue, May 13, 14 at 0:59

  • Buehl
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Here's the same Kitchen layout as #2 but with a different DR layout - and you only need to add 2' to the width of the DR.

    I was able to turn the DR table b/c there's more room with the island also turned.

  • Buehl
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Finally, here's another layout. It has the alternate DR layout but with only 1' added to the DR width. However, in this case, the kitchen counters/cabinets are shorter on the "top" wall to allow the DR table to be moved another foot closer to the top.

  • lavender_lass
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Buehl- I love that third/final version! Maybe with a window seat under the window...next to the clean up area? :)

  • m5askqu5
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    You would all faint if you saw my current kitchen configuration (pic attached)! Stove, sink and fridge all in a row- U-shaped kitchen. It was worse when we bought the place. This is what I'm used to...thus the struggle to understand zones and change in general. And the whole sink with window- had one at the old house, now I stare at a wall. Thus the push to have my window back :)

    I think I like the dining table turned the way it was initially. Just looking into a room, I visualize it fitting the long way. I have adjusted the DR size on my plan like those suggested. I'm going to wake up and look at these some more :) Thanks so much for doing them!

  • Buehl
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Change is difficult and most people resist it. We get into a rut with what we have and are used to and have a hard time visualizing anything else or we resist change just b/c that's the way most of us are - even when what we have is not the best and we could have better.

    We also get an idea in our head and have a difficult letting go of it even when it's shown to have issues. I was the same way....it took me quite a while to accept that my kitchen could not handle an island like I had envisioned when I started my remodel! Thank goodness the good folks here on Kitchens were patient with me and stuck with me. I eventually realized they were right and once I got over that obstacle it was much easier to go forward. I am now so grateful to everyone b/c my kitchen is wonderfully functional. (I shudder to think what it would have been like if I had stuck to my guns on the island concept!)

    I am now paying it forward!

  • m5askqu5
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    And I appreciate it :)

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