Yeah, God forbid your contractor spend 8 hours of his time taking a course to learn how to protect your family from improper removal of lead paint. Whew.

That " expensive law" is meant to protect you and your loved ones from exposure to a known health risk - While exposure to anyone is not advisable, children are especially susceptible - While there are parameters set determining "allowable limits" - there is no safe exposure. Hopefully, you will test the areas that will be renovated. Lead is fine, until it is disturbed - Once disturbed it becomes airborne and gets everywhere - unless you are not living in the house during renovation AND have a lead abatement - You WILL be exposed. Hopefully you do not have small children that will be exposed.
"expense" in my mind can't be measured when it comes to exposure - while enjoying a new kitchen I would be in constant worry that my children are literally eating the lead. No, not an alarmist - rather a medical professional who has seen it and has also, become somewhat studied on lead poisoning.

Wow...really? I mean...really?

There is going to be a dust wall up blocking that part of the house from the rest of the house. We have always lived in older apartments/houses...even one with chipping led paint when my kids were just toddlers. They have been tested many times for lead exposure with no red flags and flashing lights.

We are also having linoleum tile removed and I am almost certain the backing is asbestos based. I feel more worried for the construction guys than for my family.

I appreciate your concern, even Warmfridge's sarcasm...maybe it just seems snarky due to the medium of the internet...but honestly, I don't feel like a "bad mom" or like I am endangering the health of my kids by not hiring a more expensive contractor.

***deleted a whole bunch of sentences right here****

Anyway, WarmF definitely pressed a button of mine. I posted because I am truly happy we beat the date with our permit and because I thought some other people out there who did not know about the law might find it interesting.

As I would tell my students, there is a nice way to say what you want to say, WarmF. Like, instead of sarcasm, it would be more constructive to simply say that you have an appreciation for the law because of reasons xy&z or whatever.

Anyway, I know I am minutes from getting my period and if I was more in control of my fingers right now I would cease typing, have a good night's sleep and then respond in the morning, but I really find the tone of WarmF's comment condescending and unnecessary.

Jejvtr, Thank you for being a lady (or a gentleman) with your comment. I appreciate your sentiment and the mature way that you delivered it. Nevertheless, a more expensive contractor would make the remodel prohibitive. We are using friends to do the work and lead or no lead, plan to take precautions so that our family is not exposed to the dust of the remodel.

Sab- I don't know much about lead, altho I think it is, in small doses, cumulative. Maybe.

But please do be very cautious about asbestos- for everyone, family, workers friends. Perhaps a one time exposure, don't know for sure, can cause mesothelioma- a fatal cancer. My cousin was diagnosed some months ago and the only exposure we can recall is when as a young married guy, he did a lot of renovating himself. His day job was for NASA so that possibility also exists. But it's deadly and perhaps can result from minimal exposure. Dont know nothin for sure, except that he's got it and got it from asbestos.

Did you even read the article you linked to?

Do you really feel that requiring a contractor to take an 8 hour course will cut into his profits enough so that it will raise your costs prohibitively? If he doesn't have enough working capital to be able to take time away from his work for one day, to attend a tax-deductible conference, then I would be more concerned about his ability to pay subs and suppliers during my reno.

Or were you objecting to the requirement for safe practices to remove lead around your family? If you read the article, or any other reliable source about lead removal, you'd know that a "dust wall" alone is not adequate. Or maybe you were objecting to penalizing negligent contractors? Why would you want to hire such a contractor in the first place?

Speaking as yet another health care professional, if you want to continue to expose YOUR family to risks associated with lead, neither I nor your GC or the govt can effectively stop you, but please don't try to encourage others to risk their families' health in a public forum. That type of irresponsibility pushed MY buttons, big-time.

If you'd like to turn this into something construcive, then why don't you take the time to learn about lead, lead poisoning, and lead abatement, and teach your students about the facts?

Westsider--I am really sorry to hear about your cousin. That is terrible and I appreciate your concern. I am actually worried about the guys doing work in our house who are tearing out the stuff. We alerted them about the fact that asbestos may be involved and they will take whatever precautions they can.

WarmF--Okay. This has got to end. I will say my peace and, if you like, you can post again, having the last word. It really isn't worth it to me.

I will try to address the points of your second post.

1) Yes, I read the article I linked along with other articles and spoke to some licensed GC in the area.

2) The price for the cost cited in the article (up to $200, I believe) is not reflective of the cost of the course in my area. The GC's I spoke with are under the impression that the cost is more like $700-$1k per person. At least one that I spoke with has decided to just not work on houses built 1977 or prior. It is my opinion, and the opinion of my husband who is a healthcare professional and exposed to many hazardous chemicals daily in his work environment (a hospital) that the potential fine of violators of this law--a fine that may be levied up to $37,500, is excessive.

3) If you read my post, you would see that we are not hiring a licensed general contractor. Rather, we are using skilled friends to do the work. There are no sub contractors. I am acting as my own GC. We are doing this to save money. We would not be able to hire a licensed GC, due to expenses.

4) I personally feel the dust wall is the most important precaution. They will be cutting out the old sheetrock, not sledghammering it. There will be wet rags and shop vacs.

5) In my opinion, there seems to be a real class issue underlying this discussion. Please forgive me if I am being presumptuous on this point, however, it appears to me from what you have written that you have a difficult time understanding that not everyone can afford to pay more than $20/hr for the labor. I am happy hiring the guys we hired because they are our friends and do very good work.

6) I don't feel I was encouraging anyone to expose their family to lead. Honestly, where did you get that from? I posted that I was happy we beat the law with our permit. We already are in over our head with debt from the remodel, have multiple loans going and one more applied for and to have to shell out more cash for the labor is not something we could handle right now. If that happened, we would have ended up with all of our materials and no money for the labor. I don't see that I was giving any instruction on how to skirt the law. If someone sees it another way, please, expose my faulty thinking. I do think the law can be a financial burden for people with older homes that purchased their homes before the law took effect and had planned on remodeling. The law does not make lead any more toxic. People know it is toxic. You have to sign a form and read a booklet upon signing any contract for an older dwelling. The law makes it more expensive to remove walls with lead paint. It doesn't mean that people, prior to the law, would not have acted with caution when removing such walls. It does mean, however, that prices can increase due to the official law being enacted. And I know from a colleague's friend who just embarked on a bathroom remodel, the price became exponentially higher due to the law.

7) Lead is not in the lesson plan for my students, since the curriculum is county mandated. However, as an educator certified in the state of Florida, it is an expectation that we teach students morality. I strongly believe that includes courtesy. Please forgive me for reacting in a discourteous manner to your original post, which I found sarcastic and rude.

I look forward to seeing your comments in other threads on this forum. However, at this point, I must courteously disengage in any discussion with you. Thank you for your contribution to this thread. It has been a great learning experience for me. I do appreciate your passion for safety and have a strong hope that if this conversation took place in real life, it would have gone more harmoniously. I am often glib with my forum communication and I understand how that can come across as flighty. Please forgive me for any offenses I have made during the course of our communication. I wish you the best.

Regarding the asbestos, we had it in all our drywall ... since we were taking down walls, we did go through the proper channels for abatement. But I'm not going to call out the pros every time I nail a picture to the wall. I looked into it, and I feel fairly confident that we are not at risk; it sounds like you need repeated exposure to really be in danger. (ie, it's your workers who need to be protected.) We just put flooring over the old vinyl so we didn't have to take it out. Don't know if that would work for you or not.

'Inhaled asbestos fibers remain in the body and cannot be expelled. Because of this, the fibers can easily penetrate body tissues and may deposit themselves in airways and in the lung tissue. The more you're exposed, the more likely you might develop an asbestos-related disease. Most people exposed to asbestos on a very casual basis probably will not develop such a disease.'

Here is a link that might be useful: asbestos info

I'm always curious to learn about the differing code and labour requirements in various jurisdictions. Where I live, there is no similar licensing requirement for dealing with older houses re the possibility of lead paint.

However, the removal of asbestos is a BIG DEAL. An 8 hour course won't do. Trained workers need to wear hazmat suits, the building must be sealed during work such that the residents have to live elsewhere, and inspections are required before life resumes. During my kitchen demo, my GC discovered asbestos backed vinyl flooring under the top layer. His advice was to leave it alone, and use a flooring material that could be laid over top. As long as the asbestos is undisturbed, it doesn't release its toxic particles. I (and many of my neighbours) have ceramic tile floors laid over the offending materials

I pulled my permit nearly a year ago and we are still subject to the law that went into effect on 4/22/10. In fact, we didn't get done with some demo of clearly lead based paint and because of that, we now have to do a full abatement and containment policy in that area.

Costs more, yes. But, I live in a house built in 1887, and after we are done, I can certify to buyers that my home is 100% lead free/lead safe. That will, I believe, eventually be worth its weight in gold. Or lead. Or whatever.

You better hope you don't have nosy neighbors. They can turn you in and it doesn't matter *when* your permit was pulled. Or at least that's what we learned in the EPA class. My neighbor took it upon himself to test my weatherboards - although people that live in pre-1977 (more like 1877 in my 'hood) shouldn't "throw stones." So we wanted to make sure everyone was adequately protected. Me, my contractor, my neighbor, their baby, our pets...everyone.

There was a bit of initial misunderstanding on my site about the new lead rules - I had to sign some documents about it - but when all was said and done, we didn't meet the opt out guidelines. In hindsight, I'm glad.

Segbrown....your floor is wood? We are installing wood and i wanted to install it over the vinyl tile but there has been a lot of back and forth about whether or not that is possible. Any info you could give me on that would be great. I am not happy about having that tile ripped up.

Cooksnews--the law is rather new and is national (EPA). If you google it you will see it covered in all kinds of news media across the country.

Grl---Ugh! Really? The law still applies? Oh my oh my oh my. I feel like we are so financially screwed now. The other thing is we still have our previous house--circa 1834--that we would like to sell. This law, seriously, will make it even harder. I am sorry to be all money conscious in this discussion, but it is really late in the game for such a big wrench to be thrown in our works.

two comments from my perspective:

1. re: nosy neighbors: my old landlord removed the asbestos wrapped duct work when he was replacing the heating system. he did the upgrade with no warning to the tenants and clearly no asbestos abatement precaution. the tenants FREAKED OUT, reported him and he ended up having to bring in a specialist to verify air quality, do tests etc and was stressing big time about risks of legal action by his tenants. it happens....

2. to gut a 11x13 kitchen with proper lead and asbestos abatement is $1850 in SF Bay Area, as quoted to me in the last two weeks in prep for my kitchen remodel. this includes all the proper air control, equipment, removal of all cabinetry, trim and lathe and plaster (which may have asbestos in it) and full haul away. while it is tempting to cut corners and just yank everything out under the radar, i will eventually sell this house and will be able to include the abatement certification and permits for the remodel. when i bought this home the former owner included her costs to replace the furnace and also included the abatement certification to remove her asbestos wrapped ductwork. those papers told me a lot about her as an owner and gave me confidence in the property i was buying. i added the $1850 to my budget and chalked it up to the unforseen overruns that occur on a project.

sabjimata, the previous owners had covered the original vinyl floor with wood flooring, then we ripped out that wood floor and put in our own. The vinyl floor was pretty well smashed into the subfloor and there weren't any issues of height difference. (Excuse my highly technical terminology.) In addition to the asbestos issue, it would have been very difficult to peel off -- it was a no-brainer to leave there. You might have a different situation ...

Our abatement cost us a good week and almost $6,000. Woo hoo.

My contractor has a half day of finishing touches to the remodel of our 1825 house. He said the new law would have increased our renovation at least $20,000 and we would have to had to move out. Even without the law we tried to contain possible exposure. I had my kids tested for lead during the renovation and their levels did not change. A few years ago we lived in Rocklin CA (for my husbands job) for 16 months. We lived in a 2 year old house, went to a 1 year old school and brand new daycare, used a brand new health club, new stores, etc. My kid's lead levels doubled! The whole community was built less than 2 years previous. The doctors thought the high lead levels was environmental - air or water. When we moved back to our probably lead infested house their levels dropped in half. Go figure!

You do not have to be a contractor to be certified under the new law. Homeowners who DIY can also take the courses. It isn't expensive, and it give you the working knowledge to safely deal with any potential hazards your home may contain. IF you plan on self GCing, then it's worth your time (and certainly your money) to be able to act in a truly safe matter when renovating your home.

At the very least, you need to test for both lead and asbestos so that you are not "flying blind". IF you are dealing with hazardous materials, then take the course yourself and legally comply with the abatement requirements. YOu don't have to pay a contractor to do that. You just have to do it correctly yourself. It's only your whole financial future at stake!

With the new law, if any of the workers in your home get sick at a later point and you did not comply with the law, not only would there be fines for non compliance, but you could be held legally liable for their health conditions resulting from non compliance with the law.

Bostonpam--Thanks for the post. I feel like you "get" my perspective ;)
To piggyback on what you said, I have a friend who's son tested high for lead. The culprit was the soil in their yard! They live in Detroit. Can you imagine!

Live Wire Oak....great information. Thank you so much! I looked online today and there are 2 companies in Gainesville that actually do lead abatement. Also, I talked to the guys this morning and told them about Segbrown's floor install over the asbestos tile.

To kind of put an end to the drama, after reading Grls post last nite I decided to call the city permit people this morning. I talked to the inspektor (sorry about the goofy Russian-influenced spelling...couldn't resist) and I asked him how the new EPA lead law would affect our remodel locally. His response, "Not at all." Ahhh,,, small town living....

Anyone else who has experience with the lead abatement, etc, please feel free to post. Many of the posts will be an excellent resource for people coming up against this issue and you guys are providing excellent information.

Again, I apologize if anyone is offended by what may appear to be my family's reckless behavior but I hope that it is understood that this is a choice my family is making and we are not advocating for anyone to make the same choice.

Whenever my husband and I had a discussion about the costs of green building I'd always say "it's cheaper than chemo if we all get cancer." (That being said, we did not end up with "green" carpet due to availability etc.)

The asbestos / lead issue really bothers me. We live in an older, established neighborhood where many small houses have been torn down to put up big ones. Sometimes the owners will let the fire department practice on the old house before it's torn down. That happened to the house behind us and I contacted both the village and the fire department to make sure they did an inspection before doing the controlled burn, since I didn't want anything drifting into my house. (I still shut all the windows and we left the house for the day.)

I know it's outside the scope of this thread, but the issues with old, hazardous building materials can have such a broad impact. Even when the old materials are removed safely, an unscrupulous builder might dispose of them as if they were non-hazardous, rather than at a facility built to handle hazardous waste... so all that crappy poisonous stuff can leach into the ground... into the water system... etc. That's one reason why safe practices are more expensive (not just removal, but also disposal), and important.

I'll throw in my 2 cents worth here and try to address several points that have come up. I've taken the class and am a Certified Lead Renovator

Since you are doing the job your self (with the help of friends) the law does not apply to you.

If you were using a contractor it would apply to the contractor and he/she would be required to be certified. They would need to test for lead in the areas being affected and if lead was detected, and if they would be disturbing more than 6 square feet they would need to take appropriate steps to contain the lead and protect their workers and your family, and properly dispose of the contaminated material.

If the intent of the remodel is to upgrade, improve beautify etc the home it can be done by a contractor who is EPA certified as a Lead renovator. If the intent is to remove the lead then it must be done by a contractor who is certified for Lead Abbatement.

The lead requirements that went into effect on April 22 is a nationwide EPA requirement. It affects every state and locality. Some states, like California where I live and work, have even more stringent requirements over and above what the EPA requires.

Lead is not that hard to contain, the law should not add huge amounts to the cost of a project. We are estimating that it will add roughly $300.00 to the cost of a typical kitchen remodel. We need to test for lead in the paint, the cabinet finishes and the glaze on ceramic tile and take appropriate measures if lead is found.

If you live in a house built prior to 1978 your contractor is required to give you a booklet titled Renovate Right within 60 days of the start of the project, and get your signature that you received the booklet.

The cost of the 8 hour certification course will vary depending on who is offering it. In Northern California I saw it offere for as low as $160.00 by a local NARI chapter to as high as $400.00 by a local training company.

I hope I've answered a few questins.

It's my understanding that the ingestion of lead is what causes the most problems, not just being exposed to dust. For those that are uncomfortable during renovations of their own or neighbors property the old standby advice of washing your hands frequently, particularly before eating is something to follow.

skyedog is right. The lead is not absorbed transdermally (through the skin) it must be ingested or inhaled. The most typical ways for it to get into the body would be a child eating or chewing on something with lead in the finish, a child or adult with lead dust on their hands transferring it to food and eating it or breathing the air born dust particles during a remodel.