I can't see much of anything except the joints might be too tight.

If it's not to your standards, why hire him again? He should not be tiling over a problematic substrate. Find someone who believes in good solid prep.

I think your tile looks just fine.

I don't see a thing wrong with it. What exactly are we looking for? Perfection? Those type of tiles have their own "spacers" built into them and are designed to butt one against the other so the joints are what they are. It looks pretty darn good and nice and flat to me.

Out of curiosity since you said the walls "may have been uneven" ... what's under the tile? Did he do the prep work or was he installing over someone else's prep?

You want perfect, you have to be prepared to pay for it from the beginning with a higher standard of wall prep. What you show is quite workmanlike. It's not A+ but it's no B- either. Above average but not perfect. Rob ably as good as it gets without rebuilding the walls to tighter tolerances.

Some of the vertical grout lines are wider than the horizontal ones, some verticals are narrower at the top then the bottom, and some horizontals don't line up.
Much better job than in my bathrooms, that's for sure, where every line is different, but not as good as in my mom's bathrooms, where every single line is precisely like the other. (Tiling is an apprenticeship that takes 3 years of training in school and on the job; master tilers have additional training.)
Did he use spacers?
Also, how much does it bother you?

The OP stated that he used the cheap subway tile from Home Depot. This is about as good as you are going to get with that tile. It is designed with its own "spacers" for a butt-joint installation and the tiles themselves are not perfect. You are not going to get a perfect job without perfect tile. And even then you aren't going to get a perfect job because perfect does not exist, in construction, or anywhere else. I will say that I don't like the cut around the curve on the side of the tub, though; it looks rough and doesn't follow the curve. And we can only see one part of the job, no corners or anything.

"Tiling is an apprenticeship that takes 3 years of training in school and on the job."

Tile school? Tile setters don't go to school in these parts; they learn on the job.

This post was edited by jellytoast on Fri, May 23, 14 at 20:55

I gotta tell you, that would make me insane. Yes, even that.
If he can't use spacers or something to line up the tiles, he couldn't do my tile.

My shower was 1/2 done by one person who didn't know what they were doing, then 1/2 by someone who did. Guess what's exactly at my eye level, facing any direction, and even leaning my head back to rinse my hair? Yup.

God bless my POC ex-GC-DH. It was "good enough."

I don't have a good monitor but honestly photos are not like being there. Maybe others have clearer pictures. But you seem to see something doesn't look very good.

What are the darker areas in the grout? Voids?

As far as needing to PAY for prep, WTH? That's the tileman's domain. Proper prep is a given and should be included in the quote. Trying to win by a lower bid without the unsuspecting HO knowing they are skipping important steps or taking cheap, problematic shortcuts is not an ethical way to do business. Yes, some people don't care and just want it quick & dirty, but that is the HO's decision alone -- not default mode.

This whole thread really gives me a bad feeling. This guys work is getting ripped and it really doesn't deserve it. These tiles are DESIGNED to be installed with butt-joints, and the spacers (for the third time I'm saying this now) are INCLUDED in the tile. Since the homeowner chose this tile, I can only assume that a butt-joint installation is what he wanted. Sure, some wedges can be used here and there to help line things up if needed, but we don't know that the installer didn't do that. There is not a lot of leeway with this type of installation, and the tiles themselves are quite imperfect. Of course the tiles could be installed with normal plastic spacers, but that would give larger grout joints and maybe the homeowner didn't want that. Actually, we have no idea what was discussed between the installer and the homeowner and what was in the contract. We don't know if the homeowner received a bargain installation price or if he overpaid out the yazoo.

I really think that some pretty unrealistic expectations are being set here. We have no idea whether or not the homeowner is "unsuspecting." For all we know, the homeowner did the prep work on the walls himself and just wanted someone to do the tile work.

It's easy to pick jobs like this apart and find fault with every little thing, but this kind of tile is never going to give you a perfect result. You guys must be seeing something that I don't see, because it looks pretty darn good to me, even without knowing all the particulars.

This post was edited by jellytoast on Fri, May 23, 14 at 23:36

I think it looks fine, too. I'm getting Daltile subways for my shower, available at HD for something like $3/SF. I've seen plenty of installations of that very tile on GW and it looks fine, never being derided as sub-par, or what-did-you-expect. These photos are very close up. I just don't see a bad job.

I see no defects, aside from possible issues from cheap tile being cheap. The installer did a good job.

What is the problem with the pictures exactly? It looks like a perfectly decent tile job to me. If I were to pay someone to do a tile job for me, I would definitely hire this guy.

"Tiling is an apprenticeship that takes 3 years of training in school and on the job."

"Tile school? Tile setters don't go to school in these parts; they learn on the job."

Sorry, that's in Germany, where every trade requires three years of vocational training, i.e. school once/week and the rest of the days apprenticeship with a master. They then have theoretical and practical exams at the end of the apprenticeship. That's for plumbers, electricians, carpenters, painters, and, yes, tile layers.
I watched the guy at work. He would have scoffed at spacers, just like a real painter would not tape off anything.

Tilers aren't carpenters. They don't select the straightest lumber with no wanes to be the studs inside the walls. If the framer doesn't do HIS job with an eye towards perfection, hen the end result on the tiling can't be perfect. Wavy walls can only be very lightly shimmed under the backer board. If you have a customer using $4 tile vs. $400 tile, you get different levels of effort expended towards that goal of perfecton. The labr just isn't going to be te same on a $500 labor job as a $5000 labor job. If you want ''perfect'' you first of all don't hire the $500. You DO have to pay more for a better job.

Like I said though, that's not perfect, but it is nowhere near a F job. Just look at the Bathroom Forum for that. There's a post from someone whose''tiler'' would have made a good garbage man and bypassed the tile on the wall stage to put it straight in the trash. Being hyper critical does no one's expectations any favors if they can't afford to hire the 5K master tiler. Tradespeople very righly so command different rates based on ability. Folks who have super high expectations and a low budget had better get busy developing their DIY skills. They'll either get the perfect job that they want with a lot of extra lead time for it to be done, or their expectatons of perfection will chill the heck out when they learn a thing or two about hands on work.

When we re-did a bathroom a few years ago I got estimates from several tile guys. Two of them refused to work on Dal tile from Lowe's or HD. They were fine with Dal tile from the Dal store or another brick and mortal tile business but they claimed that the big boxes got inferior, irregular tiles. I have no idea if this is true or not but that is what they claimed.

LOL, NCsoccermom, I had a painter that never taped or even used a drop cloth and there was never a drop of paint dripped anywhere. He was amazing but sadly, he returned to his native Mexico.

scpalmetto, the Daltile from the Daltile store is different from what is sold at Home Depot, etc. and is at a different price point as well.

"Wavy walls can only be very lightly shimmed under the backer board."

Floating tubs and showers with mortar rather than using backerboard can take care of wavy walls, but again, that is extra labor and materials that someone is going to have to pay for. Personally, I wouldn't hire someone who planned to use backerboard rather than floating. IMO, there is a vast difference between what is considered proper prep by tile setters; there are plenty of people that call themselves tile setters who don't even know how to float a shower (speaking in general, not saying that is the case here).

This post was edited by jellytoast on Sat, May 24, 14 at 9:33

Not sure what the problem evolved from, tiles of installer. But I would be seeing those mistakes every day. Uneven tiles, none of the grout lines match. Even if the tiles had spacers on them, free form spacers should have been used for correct grout spacing to take care of the problem tiles. And if a tile is uneven, don't use it. It eludes me that an installer would be fine with this.

"And if a tile is uneven, don't use it."

Tell that to the homeowners who select this tile. You'd be throwing away a lot of tile.

People choose this tile because it's inexpensive. Maybe they don't know any better and think that all tile is created equal. Or maybe they think that tile setters are miracle workers who can turn imperfect tiles into perfect tiles with the wave of a magic grout wand.

On the other hand, a lot of people are fine with this choice of tile because they aren't expecting perfection.

Grout is going to follow the line of the tile. If a tile curves in towards the middle, so will the grout line. If it curves out at a corner, the grout line will be narrower there. You cannot get perfectly straight grout lines with tiles that are not perfectly straight, and no amount of spacers is going to change that. All you are going to do is have wider imperfect grout lines.

There is a reason that installers cringe when they find out they are going to be working with this type of tile. They don't know which kind of customer they have ... the kind who knows not to expect perfection from a budget installation, or the kind who expects them to be a magician.

Tough crowd.

I wouldn't expect perfection if the tile is uneven, nor would I expect perfection if the wall is extremely bowed. However, if walls and tiles are straight, I would expect straight and even grout lines, regardless of whether it's a 500.00 or a 5000.00 job. If you know what you're doing, you do a proper job.

It's like when I look at my switch plates and they're all crooked. Or when someone paints window sills and is too lazy (?) to open the window, so a. the windows are painted shut, and b. the paint only covers 3/4 of the sill. Am I supposed to tell someone that that's not what I'd expect?

"I would expect straight and even grout lines, regardless of whether it's a 500.00 or a 5000.00 job"

Curious what the other $4500 would be for in your opinion?

"It's like when I look at my switch plates and they're all crooked. Or when someone paints window sills and is too lazy (?) to open the window, so a. the windows are painted shut, and b. the paint only covers 3/4 of the sill. Am I supposed to tell someone that that's not what I'd expect?"

Of course not and I don't think anyone suggested that you should. Are these the same people who went to school for three years to learn their trade?

Wow, I thought I was Type A. I don't see anything.

Me, either! I would actually be thrilled with that job. :-/

I don't see the problem either. And I thought I was picky. Guess I'm not!

We have used cheap HD type tile for two backsplashes and one bathroom. Dh did the backsplashes and we had a GC for the bathroom. None of the tile setters has complained about the cheap tile. And my GC actually suggested it to me. So apparently he doesn't have problems with it. I have often see the suggestion that if you have a limited budget, buy the cheap tile and hire a good tile setter because that's where the money makes the most difference.

And the kitchen backsplash tile I'm contemplating is handmade and will undoubtedly be less uniform than the cheap HD stuff.

If you have to zoom in to the tile with a close-up lens to take a picture of the "problem" ... it's usually not a problem.

What does it look like at normal viewing distance?

folks walking into a space notice 10% of what is in it. so if you are going to do it for yourself to look at great, otherwise it's just not worth it in the long run to nick pick every single little grout line or anything for that matter.

Just have a drink!

"Of course not and I don't think anyone suggested that you should. Are these the same people who went to school for three years to learn their trade? "

No. These were people in the US. My point is that I see work done here in my house that is so far off (literally) that it wouldn't even occur to me beforehand to spell it out in a contract (like, no crooked outlets, not painting the windows shut, etc.).
In contrast, a trained crafts person, whether trained in a three-year vocational program or by years on the job, won't deliver something like that because (a) they probably can't even do such a subpar job and (b) know what the minimum standard of work is.
I think my point is that I am justified to expect straight and even grout lines, without having to specify this. If the tile choice or walls or whatever make this impossible, I would expect a tiler to tell me that ahead of time and offer possible solutions, which I then can follow or not.

My other experience is also that once you've eliminated the obviously fly-by-night outfits, the price is not necessarily an indicator of how good the work will be.

However, this is veering off into a different discussion. The OPs tile job, while not perfect, is way better than the tile job in my house.

"If you have to zoom in to the tile with a close-up lens to take a picture of the "problem" ... it's usually not a problem."

Amen.

And good luck getting this guy to work for you again at any price if you tell him this was a "bad job." And don't even go looking at the handmade or handmade look tiles -- they won't look perfect, and that's part of the charm you pay more for. So you can be more unhappy.

"I think my point is that I am justified to expect straight and even grout lines, without having to specify this. If the tile choice or walls or whatever make this impossible, I would expect a tiler to tell me that ahead of time and offer possible solutions, which I then can follow or not."

I totally agree with you, and this is what separates the men from the boys. It is also in their own best interest to spec the job out and advise. Someone of this maturity will also advise when a job is beyond their capabilities
or desire to do. Not do a sub par job, or play games with potential clients because they don't want the job.

"My other experience is also that once you've eliminated the obviously fly-by-night outfits, the price is not necessarily an indicator of how good the work will be."

Agree again. Unless you can afford one of the fine masters, it's a cr#p shoot. You can find good craftsmen who are just making an honest living and lousy ones who charge through the nose. I think most just seem to charge the going rate whether they have acquired the necessary skill set yet or not to deliver a professional level of work.

wow, that tile looks pretty good to me. You want to avoid anyone who will do what happened to poor vintagebeachhouse20 over in bathrooms:

For what you paid, and the "quality" of the tiles, you have no reason to complain. I think he did a decent job with what he had and it looks fine.

"You can't make chicken salad out of chicken soup..."

Poor Vintagebeachhouse, that looks worse than a gas station men's room.

For the OP, your tile has 2 nibs on each side, about 1/32 inch. When the tile is butted together, it makes a 1/16 inch gap for grout as shown in your vertical grout lines. However, for the horizontal grout lines, because the layout is a running bond, the nibs do not butt up to each other and are in contact with the tile edge, leaving a 1/32 inch grout line.

Your tile guy probably thought it looks okay as do many here. Should you hire him to do the kitchen? I probably would. His lines are level and orthogonal and lip page isn't an issue. If you do tiles with nibs again you can discuss the installation prior to starting. If no nibs, then he will use spacers or a good eye for the joints.