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Island Placement - Value of Space

Posted by kheflw (My Page) on
Mon, May 20, 13 at 18:24

Hi, first post, great resource here. This is the drawing layout we are going with. One possible change, the Fridge and pantry cabinets can move to the right up to 2 feet, making that 103" dimension move up to 120 +" . Sounds like an obvious thing, but it would require breaking through to the laundry room behind it and pushing back two feet. I support beam might be needed. The question to the community is what is the value of that two feet, actually about 12 Sq. Ft .
The island placement is the only thing in question. I took it out of this drawing for this conversation, but it is a 2 x 4 island running vertical in the 134 inch space, leaving ample space between the sink counter and the fridge pantry. I've given my contractor option of an L shaped running horizontal to the cooktop, and turning into the open space. The horizontal run can only be about 32 inches to leave 36 inches for the pantry.
Pushing that frige and pantry back sure opens things up. My basic triangle gets screwed up putting the Island in the way of the fridge and sink. I drew up that L shaped one with a prep sink close to the fridge, all based on the great forum posts here:)
Any comments ? BTW - on order is Thermador package including Induction Cooktop, 3 way wall oven, Built In frige, Dishwasher, and real nice Hood.

This post was edited by kheflw on Mon, May 20, 13 at 18:28


Follow-Up Postings:

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RE: Island Placement - Value of Space

Have you considered detaching the sink peninsula and making it a (larger) island? Your layout is similar to mine, including the laundry room placement, and I've decided to leave my laundry alone. I am new on the board, however, and I'm sure you'll get much better layout help from others!


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RE: Island Placement - Value of Space

Since most refrigerators are 32"-36" deep, I can't see where you'd have room for an island even if you recessed the fridge. You're cheating with your dimensions if you are figuring it from the front of the pantry. The fridge will stick out 8"-12" more than the pantry will. Even a counter depth will be 30" deep. Only the carcass is 24" deep. The doors and handles still stick out at least 6" more.


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RE: Island Placement - Value of Space

funny, I never thought of the sink as being on a peninsula. It's currently a wall, we are knocking down the wall and creating the bar/counter there. I just thought about detaching it and rotating it around with the sink in it, but it doesn't seem to work for me. This view here is the best I've come up with, it offers the sink to support the fridge and gives good hangout area in the kitchen. Not really any seating here, I could overhang the granite on the bottom end for a seat or two, but I dont think it's really worth it.


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RE: Island Placement - Value of Space

@ hollySprings, the fridge is a Built In, 24" deep and 84" tall. Should sit relatively flush to the cabinets.


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RE: Island Placement - Value of Space

Again, take this for what it is worth - but it sure looks like a peninsula now, which is what I have and am changing. You would have a lovely u shape with a nice large island in the middle if you ditched the peninsula. The end could be raised and have seating if you wanted a bar area.


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RE: Island Placement - Value of Space

ok, thanks, you've got me thinking. The island would need to be big enough to house the Sink, Dishwasher, and Garbage, but I'm picturing it, and it could be nice.


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RE: Island Placement - Value of Space

My cooking wall, laundry access, and fridge placement are like yours, so I was very excited to see the picture. I hope you get some other input here which would also help me! I'm going to have 2 sinks, one in the island across from the rangetop and the other with the dishwasher on the opposite outside wall (south wall in your pic) - that will be dh's cleanup zone. Not having trash near "my" sink may be a small problem, but I think I'll have disposals at both sinks. My island will be quite large, but have between 42" and 52" space all around. I'm going to try to learn to post plans, once I have them.


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RE: Island Placement - Value of Space

kheflw, welcome to GW. Hollysprings is a designer, and will give you good advice. I'm not a KD, but I remodeled a small kitchen, in an older home, trying to stay within the same footprint. We opened up a wall, mainly enlarging a 32" opening to 96", with a laminated beam--not as extensive as moving a wall.

I have a movable island, no plumbing or electricity, and I LOVE it! I use it everyday, for prep, landing space, desk space, and snacks for the GS. It's 36" wide, with 36" aisles on either side (so, 108" counter to counter), and I would consider those widths the bare minimum. A 24" island would give you wider aisles, and be great as landing space for the fridge, but it seems that it would be in the traffic pattern from the entry on the left, and the opening on the right side. If that doorway is just for the laundry, not a back entry or garage entry, then probably not as much of a problem. Also, the prep sink, as oriented in that short ell, does not look comfortable, and appears to cause a 'pinch point' with the corner of the pantry.

If you change the peninsula to a larger island, what plans do you have for the bay? Will it be a window seat, have a small table and a couple of stools, or will it be walk space? I'm not sure that it should be included in the floor space, when considering the size of an island, because it will become the long way around, and people will naturally take the path of least resistance, which will make your cooking aisle the new traffic path to the door on the right.

Finally, how high are the window bottoms from the floor? If they are too low for counters, would the cost of replacing them be less than moving the right-side wall and installing a new beam? If the bay could be used for the main sink and DW, with dish storage in the adjacent wall, that might open up more options for an island. Pantry on the left of fridge could be moved across the aisle, beside ovens, and fridge moved over, to provide more room for dish storage.

Again, I know there are a lot of issues when trying to work within an existing space--I'm sure the experts here can help you get the best possible new kitchen!


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RE: Island Placement - Value of Space

Well, even if your space is marginally large enough for an island, does your type of cooking need that much cooking space? Enough to make the tradeoffs worth it? We are in a rather bizarre era of small families, limited cooking and really large, elaborate kitchens, but here and there some people do cook a lot.

I have an island in an ordinary size kitchen, about 13 x 15, cook most from scratch for occasional pleasure and daily meals, and have decided I designed in a lot more work space than needed. Everything has a tradeoff, a cost, usually genuinely significant ones, and it turned out that I really could have too much of the good thing I traded off so enthusiastically for. Not to say I don't love my kitchen, because I do, or ik wasn't well designed--because it was, but my next one will be more compact but feel just as spacious and work even better.

Maybe put an island in since you seem to want it, but run flooring under, with enough extra to patch over plumbing, in case you ever decide you'd like a change?

Just FWIW, if that nice room were mine, I'd be very interested in deepening either or both counters for more work space while standing in the same place and for enjoying an otherwise open space. That sunny bay looks like a great place to put my squeaky old wicker armchair for DH to sit and chat or for relaxing myself while the something or other thickened up. Or a pair of comfy little chairs and table, again for us more for socializing than dining.


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RE: Island Placement - Value of Space

Thanks all, I did get a view today with the Fridge and pantry pushed back, but I decided it's not worth it. Here is the best view, 36" around, with that pinch point by the pantry at 32" .
The Island serves a big purpose here, without it, that fridge is out there on it's own with no counter space. I would hate that. Throwing the small sink in there is just something I think adds a prep area. I'm really open to suggestions to what it will look like. I can angle it towards the fridge, maybe a round sink. I dont know, I just need to get these cabinets ordered.


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RE: Island Placement - Value of Space

Good luck, kheflw! I still think you should drop the peninsula and have a large island - instead of having that n/s walkway on the west side of the island you could have a continuous one on the north side. Don't hesitate to look at my plans, posted today, and tell me how I am wrong :) Do we have the same 42" KA fridge? What did you order for a hood? I have a 36" gas KA rangetop and haven't figured out the hood, yet.


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RE: Island Placement - Value of Space

I know you don't want to hear this. You really need to rethink the island. I love islands but yours as designed above appears to be an obstacle. Don't rush into anything.


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RE: Island Placement - Value of Space

If you are planning to keep the peninsula with the main sink, the most logical and efficient place to prep is the corner between sink and cooktop, IMO. Is that the trash pullout at the very end of the peninsula? The DW could be moved to the end of the peninsula, then have sink, then trash pullout, leaving a bit more counter area for prep. When prepping, either way you turn, your back will be toward a long, open aisle.

The second sink for prep would be unnecessary, eliminating the 32" pinch point. The island would be used as landing space for fridge, and dishes could be stored in drawers across from the DW (easily accessed from DR, too.)

Edited to add: And, speaking of drawers, unless you already addressed having drawers instead of the doors shown in your plan (and I missed it), are you planning more drawers?

This post was edited by mama_goose on Tue, May 21, 13 at 21:13


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RE: Island Placement - Value of Space

An 18-20" deep cart may be better, or if you feel you must have a prep sink an oval shaped island with sink near the fridge may be an alternative.


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RE: Island Placement - Value of Space

Move the fridge to where your current peninsula originates. Then do a shallow 12" pantry cabinets on the wall where the fridge was. Those outside the kitchen can now reach the fridge MUCH easier and the seating is more comfortable and social with the curved island. And the bay doesn't feel so extraneous and lost. With the layout you are contemplating, the bay makes no sense and the fridge is very hard to get to. And the island is in the way and offers you no benefit at all except to bark your shins on it.


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RE: Island Placement - Value of Space

Ok, thanks. So you're saying a wall of 12 Deep pantry cabinets over there where the fridge was? The woman I'm working with and my wife are both gonna kill me, but when you're right, you're right. Thanks Holly, and KKSMama. This looks really good. I'm buying this house, we close on the 31st. The current owner has a small table in the bay, it is really nice there, the view is great. I did not know what I would do with it, but this plan takes care of that. I think the Island can extend to the left a little more also. More counter next to the sink. I tried this earlier on kks' suggestion, but the Fridge and large cabinets on the right kept it from working. Didnt think about moving the fridge. That's the big key, it brings it into the mix where it makes sense. Any problem with a Built In Fridge being on an open corner like that? It would have looked good flanked by the pantry cabs.
Any suggestions on the curved island cabinets. I'm sure my designer will have good suggestions. I'm going with Shiloh cabinets.


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RE: Island Placement - Value of Space

I think there's a design problem. My Fridge is 36". It might extend past the kitchen wall.


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RE: Island Placement - Value of Space

Are you counting the actual thickness of the wall that is being removed? That will give you an additional 4 1/2" to that run. And you can always make the other cabinets smaller to be able to keep everything in the same footprint. But, look at the space as a whole. You might be able to extend past where that wall ends without impacting the other room too badly. Because what holly suggested is a MUCH more functional layout than you originally had planned, and I'd do what I could to make sure that I could make that happen.


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RE: Island Placement - Value of Space

hollysprings, that is a great layout--it really embraces the bay, while improving the traffic flow.

I remembered a similar island I'd seen on houzz:

Good luck, kheflw!


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RE: Island Placement - Value of Space

I agree. Hollysprings's suggested design works with the space, not in spite of it, and I suspect you might well fall in love with the wall of storage (all your most-used items could be stored between waist and eyes). How about echoing the actual shape of the bay in the seating part of the island?


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RE: Island Placement - Value of Space

Should have a new drawing tomorrow. Yes I think we might mirror the shape of the bay instead of going round. Good news, the fridge will fit, a nice panel on the sides. Wall of pantry cabs with some drawers thrown in. My cooktop is Induction so I can go with Drawers under that. I will update tomorrow.


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RE: Island Placement - Value of Space

I see a bay of windows. How are those windows integrated into the room. it is sad to see the windows not used. If I were you, I would try to see if the windows can be changed to a height that accommodates a counter in front of it. This way, you have a fabulous view from the kitchen and the kitchen is flooded with light. Yes, this is expensive but I always work from the light and view first... To me, this is where the money should go.
Another option is to create a kitchen where you sit in the bay and look OUT of the window. As it is, the island seating has the back to the windows.

Look at mama goose's island; people sitting at the island look at the window. Both sinks are in front of the windows.

You have to maximally utilize the best part of the architectural detail of the house: in this case, the bay windows.

If you haven't moved into the house, don't be in a hurry to remodel. The kitchen you are designing feels absolutely WRONG to me in terms of how it uses the windows.


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RE: Island Placement - Value of Space

Thanks, but this house I'm buying is loaded with great views. 1 1/4 acres of water view property just a couple miles south of Annapolis Md. We are renting a house right now, and extended the rent through June. All construction in the new house will be done in June. We are ripping out some 40 year old very Ripe Carpet. Replacing with hard wood throughout. This Kitchen work has to get done, and not having ordered the cabinets yet, already 2 weeks behind. We will be eating out a lot at the end of june into july:)
I appreciate the remarks, but I think we've done the best we can with this design. The real view is into the dining room and great room to the left in my drawing. It's all a vaulted ceiling, exposed wood beams and ceiling, nice dark stain. Big brick fireplace in the great room. Views all around, and when you're standing in the kitchen, you will have a view out those windows.

Thanks
Hef


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RE: Island Placement - Value of Space

Sounds lovely, congratulations on the new plan!


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RE: Island Placement - Value of Space

We were in a kitchen/bath showroom, and saw an island-to-whatever space, which we agreed was the absolute minimum we would want, be would try for more.

So we measured it, and it was 42". I set that as the minimum, island to anything including handles, which meant cutting our island width from 48" to 45".

Installed, we have 43.25" to fridge handles, 45.75" to front of fridge, more everywhere else. It is good but I wouldn't want to lose more than 1-2 inches off of that.

I suggest that you mock up something (with boxes, or cut a sheet of plywood) to simulate the space, and make sure you are satisfied with it. A couple of inches can make a big difference in the way it looks and feels.

-Gary


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RE: Island Placement - Value of Space

Hi all, finally following up. Contractors packed up about the last week of August. It was a long summer with them here.
Kitchen is done, here's a pic showing how the island ended up in front of those windows as suggested here. Came out great in my opinion. More pics will follow in a Kitchen Reveal post tonight.
Thanks all!


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RE: Island Placement - Value of Space

Wow, that looks totally amazing! What a great resource this site is ... to think that the feedback from kksmama and hollysprings and her great idea of moving the fridge kicked the idea off. And you ran with it so beautifully. Looking forward to the full reveal! Fabulous looking cabinets and lighting (I particularly love your dining room chandelier).


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