The problem I see with that idea is having no landing space near your fridge or range.

Is it possible to remove or relocate just one base cabinet on the run and move it to the fridge, range side?

Pictures would be highly beneficial, here, along with a to-scale layout drawing, even if it is a photo of a graph paper drawing (with measurements on it.)

If your cabinets are good stay open-minded to the thought that they can be (as Texas_Gem pointed out) rearranged without being "torn out." I just did this myself, on the excellent advice I received at GW Kitchens. Moved the fridge, slid the stove down, and plugged in additional cabinets.

One of my main goals in remodeling our kitchen is separting the refrigerator and the range. Mine are right next to each other with no adjacent counter space (1926 original kitchen). It's a daily annoyance. I end up prepping on top of my range and I keep a wooden cutting board on it to use a landing spot for food coming out of the oven. But then the top is taken over with those activities and I have to clear it for actual cooking. It's ridiculous.

I wouldn't bother remodeling at all if I couldn't separate those appliances. It's not worth the money and hassle if that kind of major layout issue can't be addressed, IMO.

I've attached a photo of the side of the kitchen in question. My hope is to put the fridge all the way to the left, and have the doors open to the left, that way since the wall doesn't come out as far there, needing room for the doors to swing open won't be a problem. Then we'd put the stove in the center, and the dishwasher to the right, which would also add in a counter (on top of it), which would be greatly appreciated next to the oven/range. There is a laundry chute that is hard to see in this picture, but it's under the Jesus picture on the wall to the left, and where it is in that wall is just dead space, so one option is to take out that portion of wall so that we have more space. My husband is very uncomfortable with the idea of taking out a part of the wall unless it is absolutely necessary, so I'm just trying to assess if there's any way to fit everything without doing that.

texas_gem and greenhaven: the cupboards on the other side of the room are not cabinet units, but built in shelves. Some number of the pieces extend the length of the run, so it would be very hard to simply remove a section. The widths of the doors are 17" or 22" so there isn't even a section that we could just cleanly take out. We'd have to take out two doors, and then worry about finding a matching narrower door to go next to the dishwasher.

crl: while it would be nice if the dishwasher could be added in between the two appliances, 1) it would still leave the oven up against a wall, which would then have me asking the same question about being too close to a wall and 2) since the widths of the fridge and oven/range could potentially change in the future (if we later decided to remove the laundry chute to allow for larger appliances) I wouldn't want to be trapped by having the built-in dishwasher determining how much space was available to the right of it. If it's in the corner, then the others can change widths.

trebuchet: so there's no sort of material (such as a sheet of something heat-resistant/flame retardant) that I could put up in between the range and the fridge that would make it safe?

skirtmom,
We need more pics.
Where is your sink? You should be placing a dishwasher next to the sink, not next to the fridge and stove.
For ease of plumbing and loading issues.
Your stove has no vent above it? Not at all?
What exactly do you want to do? Do you want to install a dishwasher on the same wall as your stove and fridge?
Where would it fit?
Just so you know, you want a floor cabinet between your stove and fridge, and you need a hood above your stove.
You barely have room on that wall you have in the pic you posted.
Your dishwasher should really go next to your sink, for ease of plumbing and loading of the dishwasher.
If you have to get rid of shelves, you have to ask yourself what you want more, a dishwasher or shelves?
Still, not enough pics.

We were able to get a dishwasher into an existing stick built cabinet run while leaving the rest of the run intact. Our contractor is a good carpenter, but I know other people have had just handymen do it. (Not disparaging handymen, just trying to say that I don't think that it takes a master carpenter). In addition to the problems with squeezing all those appliances in, I think the plumbing issues would be a problem, as someone else pointed out.

I realized I'm not sure I understand entirely what your goals are. Are you just trying to add a dishwasher? Is there a full remodel down the road? Or do you want to save the existing cabinets permanently?

To me, looks like you barely have enough room for the stove and the frig, and they dont look new so they may have to be replaced eventually, and I doubt a new frig will fit in that space, and still have enough room, inside for all that needs to go in it. I dont know the codes for where you live, but, the state we lived in before moving here, there had to be a cabinet in between the stove and the refrigerator.

It also may not be easy to remove a section of your cabinets either, since you are saying 1926 is when they were put in. Cabinets at that time were probably built in place, and removing a section, would likely make it fall all in pieces, and its a big job to reassemble it to use elsewhere.

I agree, that the dishwasher should be near the sink area, for plumbing and to be really usable. Sometimes, something needs to be rinsed off, before placing in the dishwasher, and then you would have it dripping water all across the floor. If you cant put one close to the sink, maybe a better option for you is to buy a movable dishwasher, that you can pull up to the sink, hook to your faucet, and when it is done, push it back to a convenient area. They do move easily.

I also agree, you need a hood above that stove. Even a non vented outside one would be better than having nothing.

Sketch a layout on graph paper and mark measurements.

We successfully got a dishwasher into a run of site built cabinets from 1926. We took out a bigger than 24 inch ice box and the extra space is now divided for vertical storage of cookie sheets and such. The rest of our cabinet run is intact and solid as ever. It's a not uncommon maneuver around here to get a dishwasher into an old kitchen.

Ours isn't finished off nicely because it was a temporary thing until we get the whole kitchen remodeled, but we could easily add toe kick and paint and have it look just fine. I would not assume you can't get a dishwasher into the existing cabinet run. (Ours is also less than 24 inches deep and our contractor still managed to squeeze a Bosch in there.)

skritmom:

I don't need to look at a drawing. There is no way a dishwasher will fit in the pictured run. Not even the smaller kind.

Personally, even if there were no issues like drains-water-etc for a dishwasher tucked in that appliance run, there is no way I would want to use an apt sized small range and apt sized tiny dishwasher.

Is the counter top on the cabinet wall is that what you are trying to save? Is there a cabinet in that run that could be moved and used in the appliance side-it would have to be very skinny.

Personally, if I was trying to improve the kitchen using as much of the existing parts as possible, I would be looking at what I could take apart and rotate else where. (I have a similar issue in wanting a dishwasher in a 1990's updated kitchen that has a horrible design, but was also limited in what could be done due to setbacks etc since the kitchen was added to an 1890's house and the contractor decided he could do a better layout than the one supplied......

I agree with butterfly, can you possibly post the layout and dimensions of your kitchen? Maybe someone might have a different configuration that will work better :)

Here's the blueprint of the kitchen (it's slightly different since they ended up swapping the fridge and oven locations).

Here's a photo of (mainly the other side) of the kitchen. (Sorry it's so messy, I was trying to clean out my cabinets last night when I took the pic.)

This post was edited by skirtmom on Sun, May 4, 14 at 13:44

Here's where you can see that the cupboards are all one piece.

Another issue with the base cabinets is that there's this lip, which would make it hard get the dishwasher flush in the front without looking odd.

I'm sorry for being so difficult. I really agree with and understand where you all are coming from. To give you an idea of what I'm dealing with: when I reported to my husband this morning that I did everything I could to try to make it work without major structural changes (agreeing to narrower stove and fridge) his response was "so we're back to the plan of putting the dishwasher in the basement?" He doesn't understand the need for an efficient space AT ALL. He has told me before that if we need a dishwasher we'll just have to move to a house that already has one, b/c there's no way to add it in our kitchen... but when I found the "perfect" house about a year ago he said that we're never moving b/c it's too much work to move.

Perhaps if you stop cooking, washing dishes, etc. I'm not kidding.

You need to sit down and have a heart to heart talk.

Back to the dishwasher issue. I would talk to a carpenter about the possibility of building a cabinet add-on that turns the corner on the east wall and put your dishwasher in that. I'm not sure how much space you have there, but it looks like you could probably fit in a 2'6" piece, which is all you'd need to accommodate a DW. You would have to replace your counters if you wanted it all to flow, and you'd have some dead space in your lower cabinets, but you might be able to arrange it so you could still reach in.

You'd be able to load the dw while you're at the sink without having to turn around and walk across the aisle.

The current dimensions of the space where the stove and fridge are is 81.5." So 25.5" for dw (assuming 3/4" cabinet sides) + 24" range + 29.5" fridge (found one that gives me more capacity than my 32.5" 20yo one) = 79." So technically they could all be squeezed in... but I only have 2.5" to work with for clearance btwn them, and there prob needs to be 1/2" between fridge and wall, so then I only get 2" between fridge and oven. Taking out the laundry chute to the edge of the switch plate gives us 11" more. That gives me back 6" of oven and 5" extra to work with for clearance. My ideal would be to have a spice rack pull-out base cabinet in those 5" between the fridge and stove. The plumbing can be taken through the basement - not ideal but a few plumbers said they could do it.

Hi Skirtmom! I am sorry your kitchen designer was incompetent! In the best of all possible worlds, you should put your fridge to the right of your sink in the corner, put the dishwasher next to it, and center your stove where it is, with an exhaust hood or combo microwave/hood. However, since you have to work with the terrible arrangement you have, you should consider putting a standard 24" wide dishwasher where the peninsula is. If your counter is some kind of solid surface veneer, laminate or Corian, you can get another wider, slightly longer, piece made to cover the D/W, which should face into the kitchen. The base-cabinet gap in the DR between the outside wall and the DW can be a bookshelf or place to stash a stool. Then you can put a teeny counter between your stove and fridge, so at least you have a workspace. Or rip out your laundry chute and make a wider counter. I can't tell if your chute wall is structural but it usually isn't. You could also buy a rolling cart with a wooden top and put it near the window and pull it out when you prep food. Also, judging from the blueprints, you have room in the dining room for a china closet or sideboard. If you stored your plates, etc. in there, you would have more storage room in the kitchen. The clutter says to me you need more cabinets. Go on Craigslist and search for a hutch. People are always listing them. I have found, when dealing with a stubborn spouse, that saving up the money, arranging all the work, and presenting it as a done deal can be an effective method of getting your own way. Your kitchen is truly intolerable. And it looks like you have little ones -- I LIVED in the kitchen when my kids were small.

I wouldn't shrink the size of your stove and fridge. You need family-size appliances in a single-family house. Put the appliance $ into squeezing the dishwasher in somewhere else.

It would be so much more functional to have the dw to the right of the sink. You have stick built cabinetry which will make this tricky but it's doable. I have done it with the help of a handyman. You basically remove the drawer and door, cut through the face frame on either side, and place end panels to close off the space and support the counter on each side of the opening.

You are worried about the cabinet "lip" making the dw not flush and odd looking, but I have to point out: 1.) you have tennis balls on your chair bottoms instead of felt pads - this will not be as odd looking or noticeable as that, 2.) even if it isn't flush it's going to work better for you next to the sink than it will across the room, 3.) if some day it is entirely your decision whether or not to move you may not be able to do so with the dw in the wrong spot - it's going to be hard to sell that house.

I would set aside the plumbers for now and call up a handyman. See how much it will cost to cut out some cabinet space for a dw. It is really very little work, just clever thinking.

Good luck. I hope you end up with everything you need!

Let DH put the DW in the basement, just make sure he is the one loading and unloading it. All. The. Time. It is beyond ridiculous that he would actually say that.

Edited to add: hopefully he wasnt serious about putting it in basement, just his way of saying don't have a DW at all, which makes far more sense than having one in the basement.

This post was edited by OOTM_Mom on Mon, May 5, 14 at 10:06

May I gently suggest that you leave off trying to add a DW until you are ready to address altering the cabinets on the sink run. I'd go ahead and do the range/fridge swap that you are contemplating and add some more cabinets to be able to have some counter space there. Then save your dollars until you can replace the sink run and add the DW.

skirtmom:

You really need to give up on the dishwasher away from the sink idea. You can't just run a dishwasher drain anywhere; it has to comply with plumbing codes and that could entail installing a new vent line which isn't easy.

One of the nice things about having a smaller kitchen is that they are more economical to renovate. Yay! It looks like your counter is in good condition. It can be taken out and put back in again on different lowers. Would you and your husband be willing to replace just the lowers? Some reasonable options could include "Ready to Assemble" cabinets, or new to you from Craigslist, Habitat for Humanity's Re-Store, etc.) You could find a nice dishwasher on Craigslist, too.

It's not going to be that much more work or expense to do it right. ; ) In fact, it will be more economical to install the dishwasher next to the sink where it belongs than over by the stove where it has no business being.

Maybe hubby would like the old lowers for a garage, shop, or for your laundry folding station, or some other helpful storage. Or you could sell them if you don't need them.

If he's insistent on no new lowers, maybe skirtmom could have some skirt cupboards to fill in the gaps left when removing a lower to fit in the dishwasher. : ) You could put wire shelving or bookshelves, or an old microwave cart behind the skirt.

With a little creativity and ingenuity you CAN make this kitchen function well for you. Are you folks willing to move a few things around? Some careful rearranging of what you have could make it work a lot better for you, and without a lot of cost.

You might google Anna White (for building your own storage units), diy shelves, tutorials on altering cabinets, thrifty renovations, diy storage solutions, etc.

In my next post I'm going to include an oldy but goody video that I would love to have you and your husband watch together. It might help him understand some of what you are trying to explain to him about an efficient well, planned kitchen. (Although, the wife is washing everything by hand...)

Here's a storage cart that looks like it might fit if you keep your stove and fridge in their current locations. http://www.amazon.com/Honey-Can-Do-CRT-01149-3-Tier-Laundry-White/dp/B001F51ALW

There are more here, including one with a cutting board on top if you scroll down the page: http://www.walmart.com/search/search-ng.do?ic=16_0amp;Find=Find&search_query=3+tier+laundry+cart&Find=Find&search_constraint=0

However, if you can get him on board, I'd suggest moving the stove to the right of the sink. If buying new cupboards is out of the question, one of the rolling carts above could go to betwen the stove and the wall. Install the dishwasher to the left of the sink.

I'd take the upper that's to the right of the sink and install it as an upper next to the fridge. If none of your lowers will fit next to the fridge, then I'd get creative with a different lower that fits, or even some shelves under there. (It's amazing what you can find when you start to look around.) If you get someone who is good with a saw, the counter piece that's removed for the stove could go next to the fridge.

The laundry chute is a prime candidate for a shallow pantry. If it makes him less intimidated, it could be opened up from the basement side and shelves can be installed to be accessed from the stairwell so that the kitchen wall is left intact.

Best wishes!

Here is a link that might be useful: Cute skirts under counters. : )

The video link is below.

And here are some pictures. 'Cause they're fun. ; )

Here's my under cabinet skirt from a former reno. It had a curvvy bar that my dh bent to fit the awkward space. I sewed buttonholes along the top edge and used notebook rings to secure the curtain to the bar. For straight runs, tension rods work well, too.

You know, if you do move the stove, you might find a dresser to take its spot next to the fridge. Sturdy drawers make awesome kitchen storage. We've done that too. : ) I've topped dressers temporarily with contact paper or vinyl tablecloths if the top wasn't suitable for countertop.

Here is a link that might be useful: Step Saving Kitchen Video. Well worth seeing.

That was a great post, laughable! I really hope skirtmom is able to use some of your suggestions.

Awww, thanks Errant. : )

I came back to explain the why of moving the stove. It will make your kitchen much safer. You and your little ones are in danger of burns and spills when traipsing back and forth between the stove and sink when emptying hot pots; think boiling pasta water while your pint sized sweetie darts under your feet not realizing you are on the move and you not realizing he or she is also moving fast.

But, the counter space between the stove and sink is valuable prep space, which is why I'd try to move the stove as close to the window wall as I could, while still leaving a narrow slice of cabinet and counter for set space and heat protection for the wall. Also, this would allow for good venting through the wall to the outside.

I might make the counter by the fridge the spot for the coffee and tea stuff, if you drink it, a sandwich making station where you keep the breads, pb and jam, snacks and fruit, the spot for cereals, all the things that someone could come and access without interfering too much in your work zone. If you have a micro and toaster, these could go here, as well.

Here is a link that might be useful: This compact kitchen has many ideas that could be adapted to your space

This post was edited by laughable on Mon, May 5, 14 at 21:43

Okay. How about this:
On the side with the sink, put the dishwasher just left of the sink. Rather than try to match/rebuild the cabinets to the left of that, take out the peninsula, and put the range in there, opening toward the sink (prob putting in a little filler in the corner so that neither dw nor range door hit each other). I would add a little section of cabinet (prob narrow drawers) to the left of the range so that little hands could not reach up and touch a hot pot.)

sketch of what i'm thinking

model of idea

Then we'd reuse the peninsula cabinet as uppers on the other side of the room, and the cabinets where the dishwasher will go as uppers above the fridge. I'd also add a desk on the other side of the kitchen. Then in the laundry chute wall, since my dh is not interested in taking out a segment of wall, just adding in a pull-out pantry drawer above the laundry chute (space goes back about 2') and a shelf cabinet below the laundry chute (space goes back about 13" before the laundry chute's chute).

model of laundry chute side, minus the uppers

Wow, you have been doing some thinking! I am not very good with layouts, but this seems a lot better to me than what you currently have. Love the model!

In the meantime, dh (who of course was not enthused by my ideas of moving the range and peninsula etc) questioned how hard it would be to change the window at the far end of the room so that the bottom of it would be above counter-level and putting the dishwasher over there. That gets the dw a little closer to the sink than across the room, but doesn't get me any extra cabinet space or a desk space (which he says was out of the proj scope anyway). But Trebuchet, does that still not put it close enough to the sink and mess with the plumbing too much by having to run stuff through the basement?
(And he asked again if I'd lightened my stance on a basement dishwasher. :-: )

You will need 220 electrical run with a breaker for the stove and you still have no venting (not sure if that matters to you since it appears you have none right now)

I LOVE your 3D cardboard model though, very creative!!

Could you pretty please include accurate measurements of the room and current cabinets, I couldn't read the blueprints. Thank you and LOVE the mock up!!!

" But Trebuchet, does that still not put it close enough to the sink and mess with the plumbing too much by having to run stuff through the basement?"

I'm not familiar with your local codes so I can't accurately say, however, it seems we are making progress with your husband. At least we've come up the stairs from the basement.

It is just incomprehensible to me that a man would consider fenestration alterations less work than cabinetry alterations.

"It is just incomprehensible to me that a man would consider fenestration alterations less work than cabinetry alterations."

That is exactly my first thought, too, lol! Changing cabs is WAY easier than changing windows. It is almost like he is on a parallel but slightly different plane of thought as, well. the rest of us. ;o)

He seems to be fighting this tooth and nail with some, pardon me, interesting suggestions. Is there something else going on here?

I see the stove and dishwasher doors colliding with each other ... not a good plan.

You are trying desperately to keep the cabinets and the walls, when they are the factors that are making the renovation hardest to do.

On paper, what happens if you remove the cabinets, the peninsula, and the divider walls between dinette and kitchen?

kitchen dimensions
also, left of sink - 54" from edge of cabinet under sink to farthest/outside edge of counter

trebuchet and greenhaven:
I agree... my dh is just... well... different. I think he has aspergers. He HATES change. My dad gave him a "talking to" about needing to get me a dishwasher (despite my insistence that we've been surviving w/o one for years), and then gave us a little money at Christmas toward getting the dishwasher. So yes, there is some pressure and frustration accompanying the issue as well as the sincere dislike of change.

texas_gem:
there is currently a vent. It's an inset circular fan in the ceiling. I don't think it really works very well... I've always ended up just opening all the kitchen and dining room windows when I've needed to clear the air in the room. So I'm not overly concerned about needing a vent. Though I probably will add something (even if it's ductless) over wherever we end up putting the range.

laughable: Thanks for all your suggestions. You helped me to see the kitchen in a different light.

Oh, good. It has a lot of potential. : )

Could we please have the measurement of the kitchen from left to right on your drawing: from the dining room edge of the peninsula to the outside edge of the kitchen on the right? I don't see that on your drawing.

Your little cardboard and foil kitchen is so cute!

You might like to try Lowe's Virtual Room Designer once you get some pencil and paper drawings sketched out. The mock-ups are super realistic. You can switch back and forth from 2D to 3D.

A great way to start sketching is to photocopy your room layout that you have pictured above and then start drawing in all the pieces. If it's easier, you can even cut out a 2D sink, stove and fridge to slide around on the sheet to play with placement before sketching them in.

You really don't want your dishwasher door and stove door to open into each other. You can plan your kitchen for both now and the future. Someday the little person clinging to your knees will become a big person able to help cook, bake and clean. Leave yourself some room to have those activities happen simultaneously. There's plenty of room in your kitchen to get a functional layout.

Here is a link that might be useful: Lowe's Virtual Room Designer

laughable: the measurement is there... just the whole thing is so small it's easy to miss... the room is 12' from dining room to outer edge.

OK, got it, thanks.

How about the sink window dimension and where it lands on the wall?

window frame is 44 3/8" and starts 46" from the outside wall
sink is 33 3/4" and starts 51 1/2" from the outside wall