Well, the layouts are looking too small. I can try re-sizing again and post them. I am, however, have trouble resizing.

I should wait til the pictures are bigger...But one thing I notice is that the remodels seem to get you less kitchen, rather than more, in most cases, and don't really offer more work room around the stove and sink for the 2 of you. The small addition seems to only gain you a room that has a lot of traffic in diagonal patterns across it, which makes it difficult to furnish and use. Unless the larger view shows me something valuable about that room, I'd say you gain as much without the expense of the addition.

I'd like to know more about what goes on in the kitchen while you're working in there together...Both cooking? One prepping raw veggies while one cooks? One cleaning while the other cooks? One baking while one uses the cooktop?

By the way...I LOVE your house! So homey and cute.

I am spatially challenged so posted my own request for help, but *waving* hi from Wisconsin!! Where are you and the outside looks beautiful!

Let's see if this is better.

Another try at posting layouts

{{gwi:1864921}}/>present configuration of first floor
{{gwi:1864928}}/>new configuration without addition
{{gwi:1864929}}/>configuration with small addition for kitchen
{{gwi:1864931}}/>Large addition with biggest kitchen

Oh. My. Love the exterior of the house. Makes me homesick for Wisconsin . . . . .

I like the last option, but with some kind of tweaks. Its the only one that really increases your kitchen work space. I'm no design expert, but we are currently renovating/adding on to a home built in 1936.

It seems as though you could increase workspace a lot more by moving your back door to the wall where the phone center is. This would allow you to have the entire back wall be cabinets and workspace. If your cabinet run went all the way to the wall where the phone center is, you could have the door and then still keep the little phone center.

I'm also wondering if you might want to reconfigure your mudroom. Its very open to your dining room (and thus to your living room) right now. My mudroom is always a mess and I really wouldn't want to look at it all the time from the living area. Maybe you could have the opening at the top of the steps and then have another opening from the mudroom into the kitchen (although this might sacrifice your phone center). This suggestion may not totally make sense, but I'm sure your architect might be able to come up with some ideas to close off the mudroom a little bit while still making it functional.

Good luck and I look forward to seeing future drafts of plans!

You're talking about dropping a LOT of money in this house to make it something different in character from the cottage it currently is. Have you thought about taking that money along with what you'd get from selling your home & seeing what that can get you in the market? Remodels are incredibly disruptive to family life and drag on far longer than you think. THey always cost more too. So, take a look at the market and add that 100K to your home value and see if you can't find something more suited to your needs.

The last one seems to meet your needs...has a multiple-worker-friendly kitchen and a nice mudroom. The first try (no addition) looks like the powder room opens on the stairs? And the fridge can't open completely if up against a wall. The small addition seems to add space, but most isn't where you need it. The mud room seems to have a lot of room not used for anything, so that's a little sad...But I could see the kitchen working 'ok' for 2...just not great. Is a better kitchen more important or the garden room space? And is the better kitchen worth the extra expense?..or is it really any more since you're having to convert the garden room anyway?

Let's see if I can answer questions so far:

We are in Madison, Wisconsin, which is a great town to live in. We are renovating instead of moving for a whole host of reasons. We really expected to find a bigger house and move after a few years in this house, but we found nothing that we liked as much as our present house that did not need an updated kitchen or other expensive updates. So to get what we want, we'd have to go more than $100,000 and then be ready put another chunk of money into it to make it ours. Our present house is a block and a half from the bay, we are in a great school district, and we love the neighborhood and neighbors.

I agree that the small addition does not answer our needs. It is my least favorite. The "big" addition gives us what we need. We do need help tweaking the mud room.

As for how we cook, it is usually one person cutting or washing and the other cooking.

Ideas as to how to best use the mud room would be appreciated.

Suz

How do you want to use the mudroom? It shows 2 closets, but it seems like one closet on the end and cabinetry along the stairs might be better?

In the larger addition plan, is that a counter by the fridge or pantry space?

I am not liking the counter seating with those sitters in another room for a number of reasons: those sitters will not "feel" close, but like they are peering in from another room; even in the larger addition there is not sufficient floor space for stools and table chairs; lunch counter seating and formal dining don't mix well; the cottage aesthetic and counter seating doesn't mix well either...

That said, the house is adorable, and being near water in Madison, renovation rather than selling makes perfect sense to me. (I'm about 70 miles east of you)

Taking the last one as a starting point, I would:
-Relocate the phone, etc to the mudroom in a built-in section.
-Move the deck door all the way up to the corner
-Place the fridge where the deck door is now
-Ditch the stools and stool counter
-Widen the U, shifting the prep sink run right to where the stool counter run is
-Leave the big opening between DR and kitchen ?pony wall
-Tuck a little table for 2-3 (or a booth) up where you have the phone counter
-maybe switch the prep and cleanup sinks

I think those changes will give you better work flow with less crowding for two cooks in that U. That little perch of table/booth wll accomodate a quick bite or a visiter nicely. And the wide open sight line from kitchen across DR to LR will open up the visual space and communication while maintaining proportion and function appropriate to a cottage.

Then again, if it were my house, I would go back to the drawing board and try for less square feet but great function, prioritizing a walkin pantry & hyper storage...

I'm in Madison, too. The company doing your design work has a good reputation. We had them look at our project and then went with a less $ contractor who did good, solid work (not fancy) and who I'd recommend (Joe Buol of Belleville) for many types of remodel jobs. He builds custom houses and does remodeling, too. (I'm not connected to them in anyway)

What space are you thinking for your daughter's therapy? Would that be in garden or mudroom.

My first reaction is that the larger mudroom option seems like too important of a space for that to be the only use.

Your house is charming! I understand why you're choosing to remodel and not move.

Thanks for all the ideas. First, these are initial drawings and so there is so much that is not at all fleshed out. We are looking at general shapes right now. Over the next weeks, I hope we can flesh out what we can do. Right now, we are getting preliminary prices on the first and third designs. I really would like to go with the third design if we can afford it.

I was disappointed to see the criticism about the stools. A bar where we can eat weekday breakfast and where my daughter can write and draw as I work in the kitchen is an important goal. A little table just doesn't do it. Any ideas??

Julia, my daughter, is an incredible child. She spent her first 5.5 years in an awful Chinese orphanage. When we met her at 5.5 years she had never held a pencil, never ridden any kind of scooter or bike, and had eaten mostly rice. She has been diagnosed with autism, ADHD, and RAD, and I believe that most of it is due to the trauma she suffered. Life has been challenging wiht her around -- I am thinking of homeschooling her in another year.

I am explaining this because it is one of the reasons that we want flexible space. We need space to store the gym mat we use for yoga, the easel, the paints, the craft supplies, the maps, the projects, and the hundreds of drawings she produces. Right now, her therapy takes place mostly in the living room because we can move furniture and she has a lot of room. If we did the first design, we would move therapy to the garden room.

The mud room which is no where near right yet, I really want ideas for storage -- pictures if possible.

Ike -- We are going with AH after much interviewing and considering. We talked to them almost a year ago and told them that we could not work with them because they were too expensive. I liked them a lot but I didn't think we could afford them. It was a KD who told me to get back in touch with them, and they seem more budget conscious. I hope this is really true and we can go ahead with the third design. If not, I might be calling your contractor.

Celticmoon -- can you write more about "less square feet but great function, prioritizing a walkin pantry & hyper storage.." or point me to some ideas?

Thanks, everyone.
Suz in Madison

Suz: Off Remodeling Topic:
We also have adopted, international children with RAD, ADHD. They are now young adults. I know a fair amount about RAD therapy and Madison providers. Another great source of Madison info is Joan at Wisconsin Family Ties. If you'd ever like to compare notes, ask Joan for contact info on Linda (her former co-worker)in Madison.

aka: lkremodel (Linda)

Its hard to make suggestions based off of one house picture, so keep that in mind. I'd want to move the deck to one side or the other (north or south) and place the exterior door on one of the short walls. If it went south, It's possible to connect it through the dining room - either instead of the kitchen exit or also with the kitchen door.

I agree with not cutting off the dining room from the kitchen. Personally, I would not like the ref 14 feet from the range.

I really don't like the range in the bottom of a "U" for you. No matter what sink the chopper chooses, the cutter and the cooker will be butt to butt instead of side by side or even face to face. If two people are using burners, each will effectively have one foot of counter to the side of the range. If one is using an oven, the other always has to move.

Everyone is agreeing the last version is a good kitchen placement. So maybe PLAY with the floor plan and the concept of working areas where the people using them can see each other. Perhaps there is a way you guys can both see the dining space while you work? Also consider separating off at least one oven so cook 2 has a completely separate ability to bake.

So, I'm thinkin' island - 48-54" x 96" ish. Turned end on to the dining area. Maybe a cook top or a range top. The other thought is to have a two-burner top on one side and a four burner top on the other. Sink on the end - accessible by both sides. An oven in the island base?

The outer walls are an "L". Tall stuff (ovens, pantry) on the short side. Ref plus cleanup as part of the long side. The ref opposite the other end of the island would be way cool. Maybe sneak some more windows in. Maybe sneak a little two-seater somewhere, but definitely at least one comfy chair with a surface for planning.

Hth!

Zuz --

Is there any possibility of using the den as dedicated space for Julia's therapy? Or is that a grownup's office/quiet retreat?

I could think about storage space for her yoga mat, etc., in the mudroom and some in the living room. An alternative would be to store some things in the mudroom, and others in new built-ins in the den.

- Sandy (eastbaymom)

PS -- my daughter is also named Julia (though she is not adopted). You're home's photo and layout make me nostalgic for our former home in northeast Ohio, perhaps built around the same time.

PPS -- Welcome to the Kitchens Forum!

It is always cheaper to remodel existing space than to add on....

How is your den used? Is it efficiently used?
If not, you can put powder room and a large mudroom there and move the exterior door to the mudroom.

A part of your problem is that the stair way is smack in the middle, which limits how far kitchen can expand. You probably can't move the stairs because of the upstairs. Sometimes, this is doable.....

I would consider swapping kitchen with dining room. This way, the garden room is contiguous with the kitchen and you can incorporate that into the kitchen much easier. You can make the garden room into art/therapy room watch yor daughter from the kitchen. This will cost alot less than adding on.

Yes, the stairs are in the middle of the house and the stairs to the second floor are on top of the stairs to the basement. They are staying in place.

The den is pretty perfect the way it is now. We have our office space -- computer, file cabinets, and printer. The den has five windows and it is lovely to work at the computer and look out at the front garden and sidewalk. I also have a desk set up for Julia there and we do our home work together there. Finally, I have two sets of shelves that store all of her toys, games, A&C stuff. A big empty wall is covered with her art. Some of her therapy can be done there but frankly there is just not enough room for a small trampoline, a mat, a punching bag and other accessories. Hence, some plans for the mudroom. I am hoping that we can shift more storage into the mud room and then set up an A&C table in the den for Julia, and leave only one set of shelves to store toys. I hope to make the storage more built-ins and maximize space but it works pretty well right now.

The idea of swapping the kitchen and dining room is interesting but I don't think it would give up the flexibility to extend the dining room when we have big parties. Ummm, Maybe with the size it wouldn't matter. But wouldn't it be strange to have the kitchen in the middle of three living spaces -- living room, dining room, and garden room?

As I said before, the living room, with the abillity to push back furniture and have a large space still seems like the best use for bit physical therapy activity.

The garden room off the dining room would present the same problems with size as the den does now.

And linda, I'd love to get together to swap stories. Sandy, thanks for the welcome.

We really want to put in the powder room. If anyone sees a more radical place to put it in the non-addition layout, please let me know. Our designer showed us two other places -- where it is in the third design, and also as a square between the kitchen and dining room. I nixed both. I didn't want the bathroom opening right into the kitchen, and the square really cut the kitchen off from the rest of the house more than it is now.

I know I am being a bit compulsive about storage, but if you notice there is no closet on the first floor. Coats are hung on hooks in the little hall by the back door. I've put shelving and baskets there as well and it just about serves.

I have to stare at those layouts now and think about storage!

Suz

I like the thought of having the kitchen and garden room conjoined, maybe with the bar dining option in the garden area. And definitely bring the stove out from the base of the U. Splitting the range into a 4-burner range with oven, and a 2 burner cook top separately located, with a wall oven, that would be absolutely for 2 cooks. If you cannot have a separate pantry room, use some of the mudroom space for lots of floor/ceiling high density storage. And I think the garden room would be a fantastic place for the daughter's therapy and projects and the gym equipment too. A window bench with tall pantry storage on either side will hold a multitude of supplies.

A lovely house. Put the coat closet near the entry airlock, or else make a peg board there just to hang coats/hats on. Don't take too much space away from the front den, it looks great.

ok - this is small and crude. I had trouble with my paint prog. and don't know how to size it up if that's even possible. maybe you or someone can see enough to make a decent drawing of it and see what you think -

starting at back w/addition:
PR in top corner, going down = door to outside, then some open space (bench maybe) and closet.

going to the right of the PR (you'll have to put a door to it on one side or the other). if door not on top side you could run cabs all along that top wall. cabs to ceiling in center with counter height on either side with windows for light (or cabs if you don't want windows).

open space in middle of room
large opening into garden room - if you can insulate and put a/c and heat in that room. otherwise, maybe double doors until you can do that (if you want to). I think opened there would make a very bright and open 'work room' for dd.

going right to the kitchen. run cabs/counter along back wall from the addition room area (corner) over to wall of stairs down with wings on each side (U shaped).

refridge on 'wing' by stairs, stove on 'wing' by new room, sink on exterior wall w/window.

possibly room for an island w/stools? that crude rectangle in the middle of room is my version of an 'island' - lol!

someone would have to do LO to scale to see what would really fit in your space.

depending on space and what you'd want to do with the corner at kit/new room/garden room/DR you might be able to put a shallow floor to ceiling pantry there.

out to entry - use some space from DEN to put in a closet for the entry.

sorry for the chicken scratch!

{{gwi:1864932}}

Achk! Can I vent? I was excited to see what our designer came up with and I know that given the constraints of our house, making more room from what is there is not easy. But it all have me plenty down today. I want perfection fast and from lurking on this board for awhile, I know that is not how it happens. And although I constantly say that I love my little house, I admit to wanting a big, modern kitchen!

Enough!

Design 1 is the present house with the powder room. Is there any other place to put that powder room? Any ideas?

If we go with that, we are taking space from the kitchen and so it will be hard to add counter space or storage. Any ideas? I hope I hear from the numbers guy soon. We would so like to just go with design 3 and begin tweaking that but I don't want to fall to much in love with that until I know if we can afford it.

Oh, I am just being a pitiful mess this morning. I'm gonna go and clean out the basement!

Suz
moaning in Madison

Suz,
You garden room is your greatest asset (or is it?) Does the garden room have proper footings? Sometimes, these summer rooms do not have proper footings to be finished off, so you have to pour new footings and there is nothing that can be saved, ie tear down and rebuild. If you are tearing down and rebuilding, you should put a few more $ and make it spacious....

Before tackling a big remodel, you also have to be flexible in how you use the house. For example, I would not be so "fixed" on how you use the den/existing house. The garden room can be finished as a conditioned space with the least amount of money (if the existing conditions are right) or it maybe no different than a new add on.

I have seen so many remodels where huge opportunities were lost because people did not move rooms within the house. I recently saw a turn of the cenutury house for sale where the views were closed off in the livingroom only. The reality is that the view in that house has lost value as our life styles are changing (no servants/housewife in the kitchen which is cut off from the rest of the view floor plan) because most people want views from kitchen and dining more than LR. That was the big reason I did not consider buying that house, otherwise it was a very nice house. I already have a view kitchen and dining.... A little extra money to put the kitchen on the view side would have made that house sell quickly.

My next door neighbor has a sun/garden room (much like yours, also an old house) attached to the dining room. They did not move their kitchen. So in the end, their kitchen feels cramped and their garden room feels cramped. Their dining room feels spacious which is used rarely...... It was NOT a good solution from an objective bystander with no say in the matter, moi.

You have to talk numbers with your builder. You also have to give your architect some freedom to come up with elegant solutions, which means that you are flexible in how you live. There are things that I was not willing to move my position on at various points of our different remodels, which necessarily was not the best solution in the end.

One of the best ways to ask your architect for help is to say these are my requirements for the finished house. Come up with the least expensive solution for me. Don't say, "I cannot change the den into powder/move kitchen etc." Evaluate the proposal (with a cost estimate) that they come up with, then make up your mind.