In my opinion, in a multi-worker kitchen with kids growing into helping, it's a mistake to put the cleanup and cooking/baking areas back-to-back, and would be among my last choices for layout.

I don't see any space for dishes and glassware in your layout? Or food storage/other pantry space?

Your kids may like to bake even if you're not bakers now. They also will be able to do things like clear the dishwasher and set the table while dinner is being made... But not if the dw door is in the way of the cook. Also one of the very best things about a prep sink is prepping food, filling and draining pots, etc. in a clean sink, not over dirty dishes. In this plan those tasks will be mixed in the same sink.

I planned on dish storage next to the fridge. Since that is my planned breakfast/snack area, that seemed the most logical place. In the space behind the fridge in the current layout, is our fist floor half-bath entered from the hall. In our original plan we were going to move that into the new mudroom space and turn it into a long narrow walk-in pantry. However, when our estimates came in $20K over budget, that was the thing DH and I decided was easiest to cut. I think we will add a shallow pantry cabinet where the fridge was, and use the space that was going to be used as a half-bath in the mudroom as an overflow pantry.

I know the arrangement of the range at the peninsula and the clean-up sink on the island is far from ideal. However, with the wall coming down between the kitchen and the new family room (this is non-negotiable, I know not everyone likes it, but DH and I want this open space), I only have the one wall, and it isn't a very long one. I want the fridge there, within my cooking space since it's current location is on my "hate" list.

Here is the current first floor. The rectangle in the eating area is to mark space for a sideboard I already bought.

I would put the cleanup sink and DW on the west wall and the prep sink in the island for all the reasons rhome mentioned.

Controlfreak- Congratulations on moving forward with the remodel! It's going to be wonderful to have so much space :)

I can see that you want to visit with people in the family room, while you cook. I also see the reason for the dishes, by the fridge. However, it will be a problem to have the dishwasher opening into your cooking area.

It doesn't look like you'll have any stools at the island...just shelves. The stools are at the bar, opposite the range? Then I would think about turning the island 90 degrees, so the sink/dishwasher back up to the fridge...not the range. Easier to put dishes away and you could still have the shelves facing the entry...and maybe a few stools on the dinette side. This would be a great place for the kids to sit and help at the island...or move to the table, if they need more room.

Funny, Lavender, I never actually considered that. I'm worried that there isn't enough space, but I think I'll sketch that out to see.

You are absolutely correct that there are no seats at the island. My kids have always been happy doing homework at the kitchen table (and that is also where I spread out any big projects like wrapping presents). They are as tall as I am (I'm very short), so they don't need stools to help out. The new family room is truly set up for entertaining, we hope. We also want to draw the eye out to the back yard, with lots of windows. The house is already open, and people look right into the kitchen upon entering. Right now, the are faced with (IMO, ugly) wall cabinets at first sight. We hope that by taking down the wall they will instead look out to the family room and nice yard beyond.

Here are some elevations of the kitchen if it helps people visualize. Ignore my random notes about what to put where. There are no elevations of the family room space.

I agree with Lavender, too--that dishwasher is so far from where you put most of the items! And the "short" route takes you through the sink/range area. I'd try to spin to get the dishwasher across from those cabinets. We always seem to have kids unloading the dishwasher when either I'm washing dishes or my wife is cooking. Our setup isn't quite as tight as what you have but it can still be an issue, and that's without as much cross-traffic. If her twist doesn't work, can you move the big sink & DW to that bit next to the fridge & then the prep sink on the island? Then you have 3 prep spaces near the stove.

I like your elevations! So many nice details. What software do you use? I'm getting to the point, where I should try to do that, too.

If you can't turn the island, maybe a dishwasher where you have the cabinets (by the prep sink) and then a tall, narrow drawer...for foil, wraps, garbage bags, etc. A little pull out trash (under the prep sink) would make it a great clean up area and place for putting left-overs away.

On the island, keep the farmhouse sink as it is (across from the range) but maybe move it towards one corner or the other, to get more prep space. The microwave could be undercounter still...but across from where it's located now...in the island. Maybe some extra drawer space there, as well.

Would that work?

Well, I tried to sketch out reconfiguring the island, and there just doesn't seem to be enough room. Unless I am really dense, I would need to reduce my aisle to what I have now, and I don't like that idea. I will revisit putting clean up next to the fridge, but I really DON'T want to prep on the island - I realize this is the standard prep zone, but I do it there now (granted, without a water source) and I don't like the chop, pivot, dump into pan across the aisle movement. It's one of the things I wanted to stop doing. Here at GW was where I first saw prep sinks on the perimeter, and it was like a lightbulb went off for me that it would fix a lot of my issues.

I'm wondering if I should consider putting the prep sink on the peninsula over looking the family room. If I put it on the far end, it could also be used as a bar sink, but then there is the problem of how far it is from the fridge.

Lavender, the elevations are from our cabinet guy that works through the GC. We've never actually met, and the design was based on my general idea with some minor changes by him. I hope to set up a meeting with him soon to see if he has any recommendations for changes, but he's not a CKD, but a cabinet maker.

I can see why you don't want to prep on the island...but could it be your baking area? It would be great for rolling out dough...maybe with a wood or marble top?

As for the prep sink on the peninsula, what if you put the farm sink where you have the prep sink now (next to the dishwasher, for clean up) and the prep sink towards the end of the peninsula? That would leave the entire island for baking or letting cookie pans cool, etc. Plus, when can you not use a big open work space in the kitchen, even if it is behind the main prep area? Great place for packing school lunches, too! :)

I have to agree with everyone else. The three primary work Zones are crammed into the space b/w the range and island. Dish storage is much too far away both from the cleanup and setting the table point of view and will encourage people to cut through the range aisle to get to the dish cabinets.

The reason your current layout does not work is b/c your island is a barrier b/w the range & sink and the refrigerator plus the refrigerator is very far away.

I think what you should aim for is to follow the normal workflow:

Refrigerator --> Prep Zone --> Cooking Zone --> Cleanup Zone

Since you're making your island so big and will not have seating at it, you might consider putting your range + Prep Zone in the island...hmmmm....maybe not. Now that I look at the island, it's not as wide as I thought it was...

If you put your range in the peninsula...

• Consider moving the Prep Sink to the left side of the range (not right)

• Consider shifting the range to the right a bit to give you more workspace where you need it most (the space to the right isn't as useful b/c of the distance to the refrigerator & water source)

• Increase the seating overhang to 24". The 17" or so you show really isn't deep enough when you're cooking - even for bar-height seating. BTW...do you really want bar-height seating?

• Have you considered no seating directly behind the range? Put a full-height cabinet directly behind it and then have seating on either side.

• Try to minimize zone-crossing - crossing from the refrigerator to the Prep Zone or Cooking Zone through the Cleanup Zone

I wish I had time to draw up a few layouts for you...

I think there must be some confusion, because my prep zone and prep sink are to the left of the range, between it and the fridge. Yes, the clean up zone is behind and to the right of the range, but currently I prep on the island right where the dw opens onto my legs, and I thought this was an improvement. I didn't want to move the range any more to the right (yes, I realize that will be the least used counter) specifically because I didn't want to worsen the conflict between cooking and cleaning. I am going to mess with my pics and layout what I think the zones are and see what you all think then.

I want to add that I really do appreciate all the help, even if it doesn't sound like it. I think that me verbalizing why I laid the kitchen out how I did and having that challenged is part of the process, so feel feee to keep it coming, even if I don't use your suggestions. Thanks!

Does this help?

I agree about dish storage and have gone over that again and again. I would love to have the DW closer to where I store dishes. In the end, I'm not entirely sure if it will be a big issue. The sideboard in the primary eating area will hold flatware and serving pieces which can be brought to the right of the range without crossing over into the work zones. In our house, if we aren't loading up the serving bowls, then we tend to plate right in the cooking zone and hand out to the kids. And I like the idea of everyday dishes and glasses being near the fridge for snacks.

I thought long and hard about clean-up vs. range on peninsula and putting the other on the island. Since the sink is currently where the peninsula will be (but bumped out 2 ft. to enlarge kitchen) that initially seemed the logical place for it to stay, and I figured I'd move the range to the island. The more I thought about where I'd work and how I work, the more I liked the idea of prepping looking out into the new room - 70% of kitchen time, correct? And I tried to very carefully follow the fridge ---> sink ---> prep ---> range idea. Thus the prep sink in the corner.

I'm comfortable with the bar height and depth. I knew some people would have concerns about the range and safety, but I grew up with a cooktop in an island with less distance and single height between cooker and observer. We never had a problem with splatters, flames, smells or steam, and my mom was definitely a cook. The area won't be used for daily eating or snacks or homework - we do all of that at the table now, and don't' see why it would change. The only thing my current stools ever get used for are to precariously stand on while getting something out of a high cabinet. (Did I mention I'm 4'10" tall?) I guess we really see the bar as part of the family room, and we wanted to utilize the space for more possible seating when we entertain without having to close up the wall between the 2 rooms.

I think your zone drawings are optimistic. You have a corner interrupting your "primary prep" area, which is small anyway. Secondary prep will not occur where you have drawn it because it is nowhere near the range and two people trying to access the stove from the same direction are going to bang into each other each and every time they move. Prep will actually occur in the cleanup zone.

My primary prep zone is 53". That's small? I thought that seemed huge, and a lot more than I often see here. I wanted it as uninterrupted as possible, thus the sink adjacent to it, but not right in it. I can't argue with what you say about secondary prep. Hmm... I guess I figured that person would be doing things that don't necessarily have to get cooked on the burners like cutting up veggies that will be steamed in the microwave.

It would really help me if someone could draw up a suggested alternative. I tried drawing it with the cleanup on the west wall (per drawing). I'd have 24" on one side of the sink and 12" on the other, is that enough? Plus I figured it's location between fridge and range would force it to be right in the prep zone. Wouldn't that be worse? If I give myself a prep sink on the other side of the range then I am really running circles and overlapping zones, aren't I?

One of your biggest pet peeves is crossing an aisle with food thats been washed and prepped, but the elevations don't address that; you'll still have to move food from the prep sink across, albeit on an angle, to the range. The symmetry of the range run is visually appealing but I agree with previous posters that moving the prep sink to the range run would greatly improve function. That's my two cents~good luck with the reno!

Thanks twoscoops, I was thinking of that (and see now how I misread Beuhl's post). It was the desire for symmetry (not sure why, I'm a function over form type of person) and, I think more so, not wanting to move the range farther into the cleanup that kept me from doing that. I will definitely keep that as an option though. There may be some issues with putting the plumbing on that side of the corner, I'll have to ask.

With the dishwasher...can you put it where the pull out trash is & have it open into the other aisle? I know that brings the opening a bit further from the sink; it may be optimizing for unloading rather than loading. How many dishes to you pre-rinse as opposed to just dumping stuff into the trash & sticking them in the DW?

What about flipping the eating area with the kitchen? The layout would be roughly the same but move the range closer to the right wall and it can vent outside. The island could be longer and then move the main sink closer to the new eating area. We fit all our dishes in a 24" stack so now you would need a place for glasses. Maybe make that top wall in the present eating area a little longer and have upper cabinets to the left of the range. The entrance to the family room will be between the eating area and island. You may have to go with the little narrower table (or use banquette seating for one side)

Control- Here's one other idea. I like the fridge/microwave/toaster/snack area, quite a bit. I think it's a great place for the kids to get their own breakfast and snacks. That being said, the prep sink seems a bit 'hemmed in' there.

Instead, what if you put the prep sink, in the corner of the island...with the trash area next to it? It would be handy to the snack area and close to the cooking area...as well as leaving lots of secondary prep space, on the island. Here's the different idea...what if you put the farmer's sink on the end of the peninsula and use it as your main prep sink? You could have a small trash underneath the sink and the dishwasher next to it.

I think this would allow the kitchen to be much more flexible. When you're cooking by yourself...the farm sink is your prep sink and you prep on the peninsula. When someone is helping with dishes, you can pivot to the island prep sink. If the kids are getting snacks, they're able to use the prep sink and not be in the way of your cooking/prep area.

As for dish storage, some dishes could go in the snack area...some by the dining area...and some stored in the island. You have storage across from the farm sink and across from the fridge. Both would be good places for drawers for plates, bowls, etc. This would leave the uppers in the snack area (have you thought of using some glass uppers?) for glasses, coffee cups, mugs, stemware, etc.

Just an idea. You might not like it...but I thought I'd throw it out there. I like that both sinks are now easy to reach from two directions and can be used in more flexible ways. {{gwi:2107456}}From Cottage house plans

Thanks Lavender and thanks everyone else too. I am thinking about putting range and sink on that same run now Lavender. But I think I'd put the DW on the end, rather than between. Or maybe range and sink should be switched, but then where to go with DW? Hmmm... I might end up back where I was, and the point may be moot, because that run is on the slab, so drains may be difficult. But I am definitely going to play around with some of these ideas.

I'm really struggling with this. Anyone else with thoughts or ideas?

How about rotating your island 90* and creating a U-shaped kitchen? You could shorten up your range run a bit, to keep the symmetry. your clean -up sink would be closer to the eat-in table. you could put the bookshelves at the short end of the island. You needn't worry about that inside corner, b/c you could access it from the eating side.

I'm no good with the photoshopping stuff, so I can't do a visual right now.

Since it looks like you're remodeling the kitchen, dinette and mudroom, when you add the new family room...maybe start a new thread, with the whole area open to ideas? Even though you have a pretty good idea what you want, it might be a good idea to have the GWers take a look at the plan. Maybe they'll come up with something you haven't though of, yet. Of course, I just changed my entire plan :)

Home4all6 here is a U shape I tried long, long ago. Thoughts? At the time, I thought I would need a support post, so that is the dark square. GC says beam is better and I could probably make the range run longer. Is this better than my other plan? BTW, each square is 6"

Well, the peninsula makes it a longer walk to the family room...but it sure cuts down on the traffic around your cooking/prep area. And, if you don't really want to prep at the island, I think this makes a lot more sense.

If you do this, I would consider cabinets on the back of the main sink/dishwasher area that face the dinette, if there's room. If you're not planning to have stools there, it might be nice to have more storage :)

Maybe try this latest idea with

1) The stove run lengthened to whatever it can be now without the post

2) the sink run shortened, so there is a better walkway to the eating area

3) with your raised bar wrapped around the sink side? If you're going to have it, go all out. ;-) You could have seating or storage, as LL suggested, but under the raised part. Makes the kitchen into a command center/cockpit sort of thing.

A U isn't usually what I'd prefer for multiple workers and flow, but you weren't really getting that with the island plan the way it was set up.

If you use your imagination...and pretend you're looking from the fridge wall...and it was all open behind the range, then this might be similar to your kitchen! LOL I do like the farm sink and dishwasher, with the raised counter. It will keep things from falling off the back and give you a place to set plates, right from the range. You need a little bell...order up! :)
{{gwi:2107458}}From Cottage house plans

Looking at your plan (and now that you're considering a U-shape kitchen) have you ever considered swapping the kitchen and dinette? If you moved your laundry room door 'up' 2 feet, you'd have room for the fridge/snack wall on the back wall to the garage. This would leave the U open for your range, sink, dishwasher, trash, prep sink, etc. You could have more upper cabinets on the wall to the laundry room and maybe even fit a window in the wall space, between the laundry and family room addition.

Then, as you walk in the house, you'd see the dinette (still wall space against the dining room for a hutch or buffet) and on into the family room. There should still be a good view from the kitchen into the family room, to chat while you're cooking. Another plus (IMHO) is that you'd see the slider and windows from the kitchen...and the fireplace from the dinette. Just an idea :)

hey, controlfreakecs, I was just checking in to see if you've made any progress in mapping out your plan. I think I'd really like the U-plan, with the sink run a little shorter. Also, I'd make the range run as loooong as you can. You also could make the sink run have storage on the eat-in side, if you'd like, kind of like your island plan had?

Anyway, I'd guess you've messed around with it some more, so anything new to share?

I started a new thread, please check it out!

Here is a link that might be useful: help me re-do kitchen plan