Your measurements are unreadable. Can you make them bigger?

Consider an easy reach for the upper corner.

Keep the path between the sink and stove out of any main traffic pattern to prevent serious injury to you or someone else who happens to be walking through just as you transfer a hot pot or pan to the sink.

The drawings were created in Visio. Not sure how to make the measurements bigger when I create jpegs of the entire area that is why I tried to summarize the sizes at the end of my post. If I can figure it out, I'll repost them. Thanks.

Left wall 251" total, 59" from top to first window. 151" from top to second window. Windows are ~41" casing to casing.

Width is 143" total. 77" from left to dining room door.

Right side is 120" from top to hallway.

There are 3 things that would make this kitchen really workable.

First would be to ditch the seating in the kitchen and eat your meals in the DR. Open up the wall, or a passthrough between the DR and kitchen to make more of a connection between the two spaces.

Second would be to put in a shorter window in the current breakfast aarea, then center the range between the two windows, as a great focal point for a view from your entry hall.

Third would be to take much of the leftover breakfast room space and create a nice walk in pantry.

Things could be done in phases to space out the expense until you've accomplished all of the structural changes, and then the demo of the existing space and replace the cabinets. In the men time, develop your DIY skills and think about doing RTA cabinets.

Thank you for the suggestions.

rmtdoug, yes moving the stove across the passage way concerned me as well. I am leaning toward the corner sink option simply for that reason. But with a corner sink comes all sorts of other concerns as well.

as for hollysprings's ideas, the DR is somewhat removed from the action in the house. 90% of the time is spent in the family room, hearth room, and breakfast area of the kitchen. To use the DR as the only table, that would only increase traffic in the cooking area of the kitchen and would place people on an further away from the heart of the home. Its somewhat of a formal DR as well, so to use it as the only eating location wouldn't work well for our family.

To raise that window would require brick work outside (which I'm afraid we could never match) and we would also have to give up an eat-in kitchen area (which puts us back to only eating in the DR), so that is why we have sort of stayed away from doing any changes in that regard.

I tried many options of an odd shaped eat-at island to get rid of the breakfast area, but our kitchen is just too narrow for that.

Thanks for all the input.

Okay, here's an idea....what about opening the kitchen up to the current DR and doing away with it completely? Incorporate that space to completely re-design your kitchen and eating space.

Hi, Cincy! Welcome to the forum :)

Here's a quick idea...I'm at work (LOL) but had a break. If you have the L-shaped banquette divide the space between the kitchen/dining room and the hearth room...you could do something like this. Fridge, microwave (above or below counter) and pantry on one side...range, sink and dishwasher on the other.

You don't have the peninsula, but I think it gives you better flow in your space. You would have seating for six and even a spot for the dog's food and water. Have a great day! {{gwi:1858581}}From Kitchen plans

This post was edited by lavender_lass on Wed, May 7, 14 at 13:50

Could you give us a sketch of the whole house layout? It would help to know how the kitchen relates to everything else, to see if Hollysprings' or Greenhaven's ideas could work. Do you use the formal dining room much?

You need one good single place to eat rather than two poor ones. Decide which one will be the most versatile. My money would be on the dining room being able to seat family, or family plus. And with a wall removed, it would be connected to the rest of the house. Or, the kitchen could be moved partly into the dining room, with the current breakfast area becoming the single eating area. One or the other needs to happen though to maximize the space. And I do like the idea of creating a pantry out of the leftover space from combining the two rooms. Where that pantry ends up will be different depending on which space you want to make the eating spot.

Don't dismiss structural changes before you even start. Not without getting a couple of contractors to estimate them first.

Adding a walk in pantry that (may) block the view to the hearth room seems counter-productive. I think the idea is to make the kitchen flow more easily and still have a view of the hearth room.

If the budget allows, it's fun to re-work the dining room and kitchen entirely...but this seems to be a very limited budget.

Why not two eating areas? I wish I had two! One in the kitchen and one out of the kitchen. Not all dining rooms have to be too formal or stuffy...maybe have it be a game table when not being used as a dining table or add shelves and turn the dining room or attached living room into a combination library, study, dining area.

Sometimes it's NICE to be away from the kitchen and have a dinner party, without looking at the mess! LOL I am a messy cook and while I like to have seating IN the kitchen, I also like to eat a nice meal OUT of the kitchen :)

If the OP wants a gourmet kitchen and has the budget...then great! However, this is still a space about 12' deep, which means an island is going to be difficult. Not everyone wants or needs a really large cooking space and a more compact area can be easier to use if it's laid out well.

No offense meant and of course, it's always fun to play with 'what if' ideas! We just don't want to ignore the real-life constraints such as budget...but what we could all do with our kitchens, if we won the lottery. That would be fun! :)

Here is a quick sketch of the house with relative size proportions

The formal dining room and the formal living room are mostly used on holidays and for larger gatherings. The dining room has the same issue as the in regards to windows, it has a large picture window that overlooks the deck that occupies most of the outside wall and it is lower than counter height, so there isn't much room to extend the kitchen into that room other than making it the only eating location.

The family room/sun room is an all season addition that we spend most of the time. This is where the TV is. This is where the kids play. This is the exit to the deck. everything happens on this side of the house.

The hearth room is a "den" siting area that is used for homework, quiet reading, etc. The wall between the hearth room and the family room is a full wall of glass French doors, so extending into the hearth room isn't very practical.

Thanks for all the feedback.

re: lavender_lass

yes, I agree I think we like having the two eating areas. While our "formal" dining room is not stuffy it is nice to have a place to eat a nicer dinner. We have an antique dining table here and I would hate to use that as an everyday table. Its just not our style.

Budget is not super tight, but we also can't do major reconstruction either. Good flow and good workspace is more import, and if that means spending a little bit more to get that, then we'd have to take that into consideration.

gourmet is probably an overstatement for us. The house was built in 1969 and not sure the kitchen has been touched since. its more about modernization and fixing pinch points more than being a master chef.

Our current panty is about 30" wide closet. Not sure I'd get much value out of a walk in pantry. I do want and need a pantry, but much beyond what we currently have I fear would be wasted space.

I will admit, I have not had any mason workers out to quote raising the windows. Our house is bricked with recycled brick, so the expense to redo exterior walls and to not have look poorly patched sort of scares me away from that path.

Thanks.

Keep in mind that changing the windows may mean some brick being removed and then put in different spots. Not necessarily adding more brick just reworking it.

It seems that the kitchen size is small when compared to the overall size of the house. I think that is common in homes of your era.

Personally, I would use the whole kitchen area as work space and eat in the dining room and/or put a table in the hearth room or family room. Both the hearth room and family room seem large.

If you did decide to expand the kitchen (as Holly suggested) then would the hearth room work as a breakfast room?

Personally, I love the look of a fireplace in the kitchen, especially by the table. The glass wall to the family room would work with a dining area, too.

Maybe a peninsula for 'helpers' to sit in the kitchen? Similar to the layout I posted before...but you could have a lower baking area or counter (even small window seat) between the dishwasher and the peninsula, if you can't match the outside brick. This might be in the budget and give you a larger breakfast area! Just an idea :) {{gwi:1858585}}From Kitchen plans

I think at the moment we are not looking to give up the hearth room or make the DR the only eating area. We've tossed the idea around for quite sometime. We've considered it but just not sure we are ready to give up either. I think because of that, we've somewhat locked ourselves into a footprint. The DR is just too removed to make it the only eating area, and the hearth room gets too much use to turn it into a DR, so we are stuck between a rock and a hard place I guess.

The eat-at peninsula is nice, but not sure if that gets me anything different than a table. The downside with the direction its facing (short side of kitchen) it limits the size and seating.

I know that we have to prioritize what's most important and while an eat in kitchen is important not sure how much function I should give up for seating for 6. Currently we have a round table for 4 and it's cramped and not used much when guests are over because there isn't enough seating. But in order to get a 6+ seat table in the kitchen area, we are basically left with the same footprint for the kitchen.

decisions decisions, never easy.

sorry if this has been suggested: but my friend who had a similar layout flip her rooms: the kitchen and the DR.

So that the flow was Kitchen (on the right) into the diningroom/main function room, into familyroom.

can see many examples of this in houzz.

w/ the previous layout, my friend hardly used her small dark DR.
but now, they're always at the DR, for everything.

I tried all weekend with the concept of swapping the DR and Kitchen, tearing down walls and opening it up. I think this becomes a bigger job than we have a budget for we aren't ready to give up the formal DR. So we are back to our original basic concepts and footprint.

Option 1 (corner sink) gives me more continuous counter space between the sink and stove.

Option 2 eliminates the corner sink but puts the stove in a traffic zone (albeit not a very heavily used one since it leads to the DR that isn't used too much).

lavendar's layout idea of getting rid of the peninsula fixes the DW knee knocking problem, but doesn't really give any additional uninterrupted work space.

As much as I know the issues with corner sinks, I still think that is the route I'm leaning toward. It is a full 33" sink base so hopefully it wont' be too much of a pinch point.

I just don't really see any other options with all the constraints we've placed upon ourselves.

Thanks for any additional feedback anyone might have on these or alternative options.

Just wanted to point out that a 25" sink is all you can fit into a 36" corner sink base. If you move up to a 42" corner sink, you can scoop the sides to fit in a full sized 33" sink. It's what we had to do in our display vignette, and the sink is still a tad far back for many people. A corner sink takes up a lot more room than people think it does, and that room becomes difficult to access. Pay attention to the size of the door on the sink cabinet below, and realize that a super susan in 6" less space in both directions can hold every single one of your pots and pans and some small appliances to boot.

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[Traditional Kitchen Cabinets[(https://www.houzz.com/products/traditional-kitchen-cabinetry-prbr1-br~t_437~s_2107) by Other Metro Kitchen & Bath Designers ProSource Memphis

The size of the doors was the main reason if we go with a corner sink that we'd use a full base sink cabinet turned at an angle. I realize with a 33" base angled, this would be giving up 47"-ish on the wall and it gives a lot of dead space, but since its on the peninsula side, hopefully we can squeeze some shelves or something under it on the back side. Additionally, the vast space behind the sink can be used for plants and such since they can also be accessed from the peninsula side.

The current countertop space between the sink and the stove is ~36". To keep the stove and the sink in their current location really makes for cramped workspace. Either the sink or the stove has to move and there doesn't appear to be many good alternative placements for the stove.

(Cut and paste without my bifocals, so I couldn't read the room measurements exactly and had to guess a bit on dimensions here.)

Instead of the corner sink, think about a smaller single sink on the peninsula, with a blind corner and a LeMans II pullout in that awkward space by the chase. I might even give up the trash base there for a small trash under the sink. The shallower pantry cabinet next to the fridge allows a better walkway with the peninsula cabinets slightly extended.

sorry for the microscopic measurements on my drawings.

Thanks for the layout idea on moving the sink to the peninsula. Anyone that has done this before, do you feel the peninsula needs to be deeper than the standard 24" base. Do you have issues with water splash etc. I haven't left enough room on the backside for a bar eat-at peninsula, so I was concerned about putting the sink there without a backsplash.

You only need 2 1/2" for a sideways turned studs pony wall to separate the two areas. (You will also need shallow work electrical boxes for the outlets needed in the wall.) No bar on it is needed, but it would look best with some type of wood trim cap in whatever finish the rest of the kitchen has.

I know its been a while since I last posted. Here is an update on where we are on our redesign. After much go arounds with layouts we still aren't happy with any path forward. We have decided to revisit the idea of getting rid of the formal DR. Not sure if this is going to be cost prohibitive, but maybe its worth looking into further.

If we swap the kitchen and DR as someone had once suggested this would open up the entire hearth dining and kitchen area into one large room. I fear this might create a bowling-alley feel as it would be ~50' long by 12' wide. hopefully the hearth room furniture, the dining table and peninsula will break it up enough.

This plan involves the following:

- Remove wall between kitchen and DR.
- Replace DR picture window with walk-out Patio doors
- Relocate picture window from DR to in front of table (replacing smaller window)
- remove or shift down window that currently reside over sink.
- Move/shift opening from currently living room to create additional wall space needed for fridge/panty

All of this is going to require masonary and hvac work on 3 rooms in addition to the additional electrical/plumbing/flooring etc that wasn't originally in the budget when we were just considering the kitchen alone.

I have a KD looking over our plans at the moment, we'll see if we get sticker shock, but I thought I'd bounce this update off of everyone here.

Thanks!