Have you looked at a book and website called The Not So Big House? It has great ideas for creating inviting, human-scaled spaces on a smaller scale.

I think it will be fine for you to do away with a formal dining room. Maybe the question is whether to have your rustic table in the kitchen or in a separate room. Personally, if I were to have a table in one spot or the other, I would vote for the kitchen. I think you will use it more often, and as I'm sure you know, that's important when you've got a bunch of kids in the house.

Every family has its habits. Like you, I have a large family-- 5 kids. I only put 2 spots at my island, though, my rationale being that if more than 2 were eating, we would gather round the table.

Yeah, it's a bit more work to sit at the table for dinner, but hopefully you can enlist the kids to help set the table and clear. I have a schedule on my mac, so all my kids know what is expected chore-wise and at least feel it's fair.

Hope that doesn't sound preachy. If you know you will use the DR table on a regular basis, and won't use a kitchen table, ignore me!

I think a homework area adjacent to the kitchen (in mud room?) is a great idea. My kids like to be nearby when studying, but if they are in the thick of things they get distracted. Our DR gets used for HW a lot-- but again, if I were choosing between a kitchen and a DR table, the kitchen table would stay!

I recently purchased an oak harvest table made from reclaimed floor joists from a Civil War era house. The oak is super hard and a beautiful color, and has a couple of large drawers in the apron. Here is a link to the woodworker's site, tell Ken that Stephanie sent you. You can have the table made to your specs.

Here is the link to my table maker:

Here is a link that might be useful: barnseekers

I think if you have a large island with seats, that you don't need an eat-in area. The island, if designed right, can be used for quick breakfast or lunches, homework or just conversation area. Then utilize the sq. ft. you would put into a nook as a computer/homework/phone station area just off the kitchen, maybe in the kitchen. Especially with 5 boys, you'll need some organized space to handle all of the homework, paperwork... That space could even be closed off , like a closet behind big bi-folding doors. But make it big enough for 2 or 3 stations.
Especially if this is your final house, make it how you want to live, if you want a casual dining room, maybe open to other rooms, then do it. I love that look.
Good Luck

Here is a link that might be useful: granite countertops

I got rid of my breakfast nook in the remodel in order to expand the kitchen and because we almost never used it because it was too small. It was replaced by seating for two at a small bar area in the expanded kitchen.

You said you have sixteen chairs which are rarely used. So which ones DO get used? If the breakfast table doesn't get used enough, ditch it. Sounds like you want to replace it with an actual dedicated homework area which might be nice depending on where your kids like to be when they are doing homework.

My kids did their homework in the family room when they were young, but moved it to the computer room or in their own bedrooms as they got older. So a seperate homework area in my house would have been wasted. Do they like to be alone, together but without you, or with you in a more public spot when they are doing homework?

I don't see anything wrong with making the main dining room casual. No rule says it has to be formal and if it is your family's everyday place to eat, with five boys, you don't want anything too delicate. You can always change it to formal later if you want to simply by changing the table & chairs and formalizing the dor.

As for the windows, I love having natural light but you don't have to replace all your uppers to get windows. Browse through the FKB for some great pix of kitchens with lots of windows and uppers too.

When we built our home a few years ago we decided to have just one dining space. I would call it semi-formal. It could be dressed up, but we went with more casual furniture. We have a counter space in the kitchen with 3 stools, which works out great for us since we are empty nesters. We actually rarely use the "dining room" at all, and eat all of our meals at the counter unless we are having company or our kids are home from school.
One thing I really like about the dining space is that it is adjacent to the kitchen, but the entire kitchen is not visible while you are seated at the table, which is great when we have company, since we can't see any mess at the sink. Here is the floor plan of that area:

Here is a picture of the dining room. We have a counter height table, and when we need more chairs we pull them over from the counter:

"What are your feelings/ideas about not having a "breakfast nook" in a custom/new-build?
Feelings about a "casual" seperate dining room rather than a formal one? "

I couldn't agree with you more on this point! I've had houses with and without breakfast nooks, and found (to my sorrow) that whenever I had a breakfast nook, we always ended up eating there, and never used the dining room. But if we didn't have a breakfast nook, I furnished the dining room to be both lovely and casual/family-friendly -- and LOVED eating there. Next house will NOT have a breakfast nook; or if it does, I'll only put in a bistro table for two to enforce dining room use.

"Thoughts on a homework area back by the mudroom?"

Interesting idea -- but how do your kids do their homework? Do they require any help or supervision from you? Do they need peace and quiet to think by? Or do they do better with background noise?

"Major concern, not having all the windows in the kitchen that surround my now kitchen table nook area? Would you design a wall of windows, say without upper cabinets? I really need windows!! "

There are some kitchens on the FinishedKitchens blog that have a 'wall-of-windows' and they're *gorgeous*! Lots of folks here have (and love) dish drawers. Others keep their spices in drawers or pull-outs. Cookbooks can go in lower cabinets or hutches. Attractive serving pieces can be set on glass shelves inside windows. So there are lots of ways to survive happily with fewer uppers.

Sure, your ideas go against some common conventions -- but you've got reasons for them. Go with what works for your family!

Our floor plan is similar to what you describe. My island will only seat 4 and is not overly large in cabinet space, but you could modify. My bkfast nook is larger so it could fit a larger table and is somewhat separate, but close to the kitchen. I have a pocket office that could be enlarged if you want a homework area, or it could go in the mudroom.

Granite girl...you might want to review the rules of posting for businesses (your link is spam).

Ok now onto the quesiton at hand...first, go for one more...let's see a girl in that mix...with all those brothers who will have friends, she'll never long for a date LOL

Ok my take...I would design the space so that you can formalize the dining room if you want, (resale issue) but the decor can be as casual as your family wants to be. Personally, we entertain a lot and I'd never let go of a big formal dining room because that's my favorite room in a house, but that's just me.

As to that whole "eat in kitchen" I honestly don't like bars for family eating places, but again, your house right? Obviously with my high focus on formal dining rooms, I'm not going to be a "belly up to the bar" type girl LOL Given a choice, bar or eat in kitchen with table, I'd always choose a table. In our next kitchen I'm going to rip out the bar area and put a huge farm table at which I expect homework to take place, family meals, etc. And we'll have a large and very very formal dining room, where we'll entertain...but also eat as a family, and much as when I grew up...if there are lots of us, there will be some doing homework in that formal dining room :) as well as the kitchen.

I also plan on putting in another area for homeowrk (there's a big open space in the upper hallway). I plan on putting in a desk there and that's where my son's computer will sit (I don't want it in his room). Sure it's a laptop (or will be by the time he grows into one LOL) but I want it out of the bedroom...yet want to give him a private space to work in, and still be able to supervise somewhat.

Was that rambleing helpful? LOL Ok short version...if it were me, skip the island seating and do two tables, but make the dining room a room that can feel formal structurally, but not decoratively. :oP I should just erase the above LOL

Shelly_K's is one of my favorite, separate, but casual dining spaces. It wouldn't work for us, though, because with a 10 ft table and a large family (which will one day be much larger when the kids have spouses and children), I wanted room to expand/add to the table. Ours is separate, but we are never formal. We have a couple chairs at our island and decided to nix the long island idea and instead put in a small round table for more versatility/flexibility and better traffic flow in the kitchen.

At first I thought the homework area by the mudroom was a good idea, but after reading the others' comments, I thought about how my kids do their schoolwork, and really think they'd never do it if it was tucked back out of the way. If the kids want quiet and privacy, they take their work to their rooms, and otherwise want to be where the action is, or someplace special, like on one of the covered porches. For us, space to store school needs would be good, but an actual work area would likely just become a clutter spot. :-)

Our dining room (still needs window trim and a built-in under the end window...the kitchen is through the glass pocket doors on the left):

Here it is from the kitchen (you can see our schoolbooks on the table!)

We currently have an 18x13 eat in L shaped kitchen with an island that seats 2. Next to the kitchen is a family room that we don't use because we have a great room on the other side of the kitchen. In my renovation, I am using all the kitchen space as "kitchen", putting in a 9' island with seating for 4. I am planning a small bistro table on the edge of the family room that borders the kitchen(we are a family of four) that will be used for lunches and maybe dinners when we're all not around. I am hoping this will force us to actually use our DR when we are all eating dinner together.

I think your ideas are heading in the right direction. Eat at the island for breakfast and lunch and at the large table for dinner. I have to assume in a family with 5 boys, you aren't sitting down together most of the time for breakfast and lunch anyway.

Here are some pics:

We eliminated an eat in area and have an adjacent dining room with sliding french doors. We only have 2 boys so we have a two level penninsula which seats 3 comfortably and also have an adjacent keeping roo& family room which has an expandable table that can be used for games, eating etc. I don't miss another eating area at all-the kids love the counter top area and then for dinner we all sit at the table in the dining room as it's not formal.There's some pics on my finished kitchen site. Good luck with your plans!

Here is a link that might be useful: Zaron finished kitchen

Agree with so much that's been said already. Just to throw some weight on the side of designing for the way families tend to live these days:

No chain-store-brand "breakfast nook" just because thousands of tract homes have them -- yes!

Somewhat separate, multifunctional, multimood dining room -- yes! Toss the misleading "formal/casual" labels and instead plan a great place for daily dining. Make it a space you love to be in, that has a very good relation with the kitchen, and that draws you in. Run favorite traffic shortcuts through it.

Windows yes! Of course you don't need a table in front of them to enjoy them. Over the counter's my choice, but how about building in a single-bed-sized windowseat for family and friends to sit and play on? Like those dusty tub bays in so many master bedrooms but right in the middle of everything?

Kids like to be connected. Would a quiet-corner location work for yours?

Absolutely go get books like 'The Not So Big House' 'Home by Design,' and 'Patterns of Home' and learn how to make important spaces into central hubs for vibrant living.
Those first two aren't really about small houses (some of them are fairly big), they're about the dynamics of using space well. aren't used. So many of those lonely "formal" dining rooms fail for reasons that have nothing to do with the label tacked on them. How does it affect the mood of a room to have it open off the foyer? How might its desirability change if a tree were planted directly in front of the front door? If the front yard were turned into a quiet family garden? This stuff is fascinating and fun!

Anyway, IMO you're definitely on the right track.

about windows. We have a big window behind the sink and both dishwashers (6 1/2 or 7 ft), then a break for the dish hutch, then a 3 ft glass door right across from the table...So the only 'upper' I have on that wall is the hutch, and you could do without that if you preferred. I don't suppose it's the same as having windows on multiple sides like a nook might have, but I sure don't feel in the dark or closed in...almost like the kitchen is part of the covered back porch, which I love.

I second Igloo's view on a formal dining room. It's my favorite room too. Ours is quite formal and yet we have always eaten every meal in there, as a family, as soon as the girls were out of highchairs. Of course, it can be casual or formal depending on taste but formal doesn't rule it out as a space for everyday meals.

I didn't read all of the posts all the way through, so I hope I'm not repeating what's already been said, but there have been some very nice, large custom kitchens without tables posted here. Instead, some of them have two islands..one for hanging out, doing homework etc while the chef preps at the other.

In our old kitchen we used to have a kitchen table to one side of the kitchen and a small dining room with a pocket door on the other end that we never ever used, plus seating for 2 at a small island. For the renovation we eliminated the kitchen table and extended the kitchen into that space. We also knocked down the wall between the kitchen and dining room and made a big open arch. The new island has enough room to seat 5.

The new dining room is larger and brighter with lots of natural light. We use it every day now that it's open to the kitchen. I prefer to eat family meals there because it's more removed from the TV in the family room. We're still using our old kitchen table in there but in the future we plan to get a larger one that will seat 8.

Our kitchen is open to the family room, so if I have the TV on while cooking, my daughter will use the dining room table for homework. Otherwise, she does it at the island, and she also likes to eat at the island for snacks or if it's just the two of us for dinner.

Dining room still isn't finished, still need to hang drapes and finish backsplash on hutch.

I have 3 kids, 2 of whom are boys, and I can't imagine the homework craziness of 5! My two can't be in the same space doing homework. We have an office off the kitchen with french doors, so one kid does homework there, and the other sits at the island or b-fast table. During our whole-house remodel, we had plans for a 10-ft long counter/homework area in the family room, but we realized our kids wouldn't be able to sit together and work. This is just by way of saying think carefully about how the kids work now, and how they might work later. Later, I'm envisioning my kids being able to work in their rooms, or else work cooperatively, but at ages 7 and 9, they can't keep their hands off each other! And who knows what my 3 yo daughter will be like...

I think a more casual dining room with a huge table is a great idea. Skipping the b-fast nook makes sense. We did the opposite - we skipped the dining room and did a big b-fast area that's open to the kitchen and family room. We can seat 8-10 there and 5 at the island for big family events. It works great. Our former dining room is now a non-tv sitting room (for me!)

You will be so glad you've given your family's needs a lot of thought if you have some choices of how to build. I am so happy with the way our house turned out - it works perfectly for us and for our kids.

p.s. if you're building, add tons of closets!! Our designer added a big walk-in closet off the fam room (for toys and junk) and another one off the mudroom. They save our sanity on a daily basis :)

WOW! I'm so amazed by all the wonderful, helpful posts. You have given me so much to think about & the confidence to do what I want and what works for us. The ideas, pictures and floorplans are amazing.

Erikanh-that is a gorgeous dining room, thanks for sharing!

Shelly- your plans are very nice and we have a lot of the same ideas.

All the pictures posted here are just beutiful.

For the homework area, I should clarify things a bit more. Only our 2 oldest are in school at this time, the rest are under 4. So, they will and do need a lot of supervision. The "homework" area will actually be more like tons of storage and home for 2 computers. Our computer & my desk is now in the kitchen, I do like it, but think I would like it even more just off the kitchen. Our plans are to get rid of our "formal" rooms. We have a large open staircase entryway, to the right the formal den/library/office and to the left our formal dining room. So, as is now some homework will be done by the computer while one boy will be curled up on the couch reading as another will be picking my math skills at the island while I prep dinner. So, I don't envision all the boys sitting perfectly at the "homework" area, as more a place to store all that homework, my "office" supplies, computers and perhaps even some actual homework. I too want the computers close enough to me and not up in there rooms.

I think our formal dining room is absolutely beautiful and we have enjoyed it (when we use it). We have had a home without a formal dining in the past, just a large nook, open to the side of the kitchen. Since having the seperate fomal dining room we have really come to enjoy a seperate dining area. It just feels more special to us and more of a family gathering than hurrying up to finish dinner, the dishes and mess are not in my sight, and it makes entertaining so much more fun and social (people sit and visit longer). Hence our reason for preferring a seperate dining room, but with a more relaxed, casual vibe. We picture a stone fireplace, flanked by french doors, leading out to patios. For entertaining this room and the covered patio can just become one place. Yet, it would be inviting, warm and casual enough for our rowdy boys and us to feel comfortable using daily. Also, to do it "right" I think the dining room needs to be immediately off the kitchen. Our dining room is now about 20-30 feet from the kitchen.

I'm greaty enjoying all the food for thought and will look into the suggested, "not so big house" as well as working more on inspiration for my kitchen windows.

Oh, one more thing, I think the reason our island is used so much for meals is because we face each other. the island is very long with a prep side lowered and then a table like sitting area. Therefore, we have seating on three sides (2 stools each side) and more can be pulled up if needed/wanted. So we really do sit and converse there, not like all "ducks in a row." I would keep that set-up still, as we love it works so well for all of us.

Would love to keep the brainstorming alive & many thanks!

Erika! I have that same dining set except with the rectangle table, at the beach. I LOVE it especially as it seats 12 with both leaves in. It looks gorgeous in your dining room. It must look amazing with your incredible kitchen!!!

(Sorry to hijack, Mommyto4boys, but I go gaga every time Erika shows off her kitchen.)

Pardon me for interupting (highjack)

Erikanh,
I love your dinning room.
What color stain is on the wood floor?
And the wall color paint?
I need to ask later about Modern Aire hoods too.
I might bite the bullet and get one. Scared.
thank you.
~boxerpups

-----------on to subject-----------

Mommyto4boys,

I have a breakfast nook and use it everyday.
No one else in the family does. They eat at the kitchen
counter. I have a dinning room too. But would give it
up for a large dinning-breakfast area off the kitchen.
We use our DR for parties, family get together etc.
But if we could eat off the kitchen and still see the
kitchen that would be awesome. But my house is the way
it is, I don't have the fortune you do to build a new
one. Design the house around it's use. That would be
joy for me.

~boxerpups

One more vote for going with what you are really wanting and will use.

I am one of the vast minority that feels like if I design/eat at/sit at/build seating into a bar in the kitchen I might scream. And that goes for wedging the obligatory 2 bar height stools around a pub style table in the corner too! Lol.

You need to do what's going to work for you even if it's off the beaten path.

I did want to mention that in 10 years I fully expect each of my nieces and nephews to have a laptop for school/play and don't expect them to ever set those things down for more than 10 minutes! I assume they will each have a dedicated spot in their bedrooms for their computers/ipods/phones even if that space is just a corner on a dresser. Many schools, rather than doing textbooks the kids carry, are scanning and emailing home the assignments and I expect more of that in the future.

boxerpups, the floors are white oak stained with Minwax English Chestnut. The walls are Benjamin Moore Pashmina. How exciting that you might be getting a MA hood! ;)

Love all of the ideas posted here so far. Somebody mentioned making giant window seats --- like twin mattress sized. We did this in our previous house (they were "crib sized" on either side of our fireplace. At the time my kids were 4 and under (3 boys). Below the window seats, we had GIANT drawers, and you can't see them in this picture, but I stole the space next to the fireplace and put giant doors that blended into the wall. --- So if you were sitting in the window seats and looked toward the fireplace there were huge closets there - the shelves were filled to the brim with games and toys, but they were perfectly hidden. When we sold our house it was those secret doors that people loved! I could fit so many puzzles and board games, etc. in there. What I also loved was "clean-up tiime." I'd open the drawers below the window seats and the 3 little boys would sing their clean up song and put all the toys in the drawers. Anyway, it was great for them because they could open the drawers and fish around for something to play. This room was right off the kitchen ---so they were contained. The window seats were perfect, 2 kids could sit in them to play a game, read a book, etc. Here's a pic before it was finished (i.e. no cushions, furniture, etc -- so it doesn't look very cozy).

We are working on house plans now and I am putting this concept in, but with a stone fireplace - like the picture here with the beams. Can't wait to have that storage again for all of the little kid stuff!
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In this house plan we will put a study area right off of the kitchen --- it is like a wide hallway with about 10 feet of cabinets --- It is between the kitchen and mudroom. I figure this will be handy for the kids, going to get backpacks, etc. But also it will be a nice dumping ground for my stuff --- you can't see it from the kitchen / family room area. I am posting my plan --- but it is SO hard to see - I can't figure out how to make it darker or bigger --- grrr.
We do have a dining room and eat-in area, but our eat in area is going to be like this

Ours is right off the kitchen--- you could close it off a bit more to make it what you want....
Good luck with it! I can't wait to see what you come up with! Rachel

We just did a remodel, redoing our whole main floor. We designed it for our family of 5 kids. One of the different things we did is to include a little computer nook off the kitchen. It has space for two computers, and it has turned out to be a great idea. The space is about 7x5 feet. I have yet to get cabinets and a countertop for the space, so right now we have a desk in there. I can see the computer screens from my kitchen, and I included a pass thru to the kitchen so I can talk to kids while on the computer.

I agree that kids usually will do homework wherever, and tend to spread out a little - one on the couch, one on the computer, one in a bedroom. I think that after being confined at a desk at school most of the day, the kids want space and comfort. So, even though they COULD sit at the island or table for homework, they usually choose a soft perch in solitude.

Also, I think it is possible to make an open dining area more 'formal', so that you get the great floorplan, but still maintain a gorgeous space. I just bought a pile of moulding to do paneled wainscoating in my open dining room, which will really dress up and define the space.

Here's a link to pics, showing our unfinished computer nook area, and how it works with our kitchen space.

Here is a link that might be useful: Link to pics

The other thing I would think about, which is kinda like a homework area, is how do you and DH handle your incoming ail.

We decided to have "one dining area" which is basically in the kitchen, in our home, but now I can't get folks to sort or read mail anywhere but the kitchen table. I have tried lots of different setups, and mail organizers, and flow manipulations, but it currently seems hopeless because for casual meals, DH likes to look at his mail, and we often also read at the table. We do have another area where I could put a second dining table and chairs, and I may have to do that. But, instead I am thinking of setting up a whole table and chair area in the adjacent den (open floorplan) and putting all mail there and try once again to re-direct the traffic.

So not trying to get to OT, but really what I am getting at is how to think of what activities will gravitate onto whatever table you have, and if it is affected by where it is, and how to have some multi-use areas but still have a table clear when you need it. We are not good at "clearing the table" for meals, and it is a constant aggravation.

I can relate. I, too, want a large kitchen for gathering, but I don't see the need for two eating areas. I'd rather have a roomy dining room with an inviting feel than a breakfast nook and a highly formal dining space. I'd like the kitchen and dining to be fairly open to each other, too, to keep the informal feel. I LOVE the rustic table and beams look!

I think your homework area near the mudroom would be nice. It'd help contain the mess we teachers send home everyday and keep your table free of clutter.

I can't wait to see what you design!

We literally designed our new build around our kitchen. Although I love formal dining rooms and living rooms our new house has a huge kitchen and great room instead. The dining area will have an 4 x 8 table that will hopefully be capable of handling every day dining as well as entertaining. The seating area will have a 3 x 6 "library table" behind the sofa and I envision this table as a potential homework station for kids and grownups bringing work home from the office as well as a game table/jigsaw puzzle table/mail sorting table (I don't know if anyone else still does jigsaw puzzles but our family loves them). If I can find the right table we will pull it away from the sofa so it can also serve as an auxiliary dining table when all the aunts, uncles and cousins are here for the holidays. The one level island has space for 4 counter height bar stools so this will be for anyone who wants to keep me company while I'm prepping, for those who prefer lunch and snacks at the counter and additional seating space for big family get togethers.

Our children are grown but we hope that this house will remain in the family long after we are gone and maybe some of our grandchildren will grown up in it. I'm entirely in favor of your desire to have the homework and most especially computer use somewhere under your supervision and I hope I've set up a great room and kitchen space that will work for younger people as well as for DH and I who are empty nesters.

Sometimes I think it gets harder with every generation to find a way to make sure you are passing on your important values to your children. Ours were in high school when cell phones, internet use and so many other technologies were flowering (weeding?) but I felt that we had already instilled at least 12 years worth of values before all of the technology was so ubiquitous. It sometimes makes me laugh to think that our big issue was insisting on no TV's in the bedrooms and that the only TV was the family TV. Of course, "everyone else had their own TV in the bedroom."

Sorry to be so long but all of this is by way of saying that I'm all in favor of family togetherness and learning from each other. I've learned a lot of technology from my children and they enjoy teaching me. I still like to think that they learned a lot at the old kitchen table about values that they remembered when they were older and alone with the computer or cell phone.

How fun to design another space! We have four kids (3 boys, 1 girl) and we decided to turn our formal dining room, which is right off the kitchen, into a casual dining and homework center. So, basically in the kitchen we have a raised bar for the kids to eat breakfast and lunch and dinner is eaten at our (pottery barn style) table. On the opposite wall from the table is a u-shaped counter for our two computers. Homework is done at the table and the counter. I can monitor their computer usage too. The downside to this is clutter. So, we have uppers to put papers away when we have guests.

As to windows, we have a large window over our main sink with two uppers flanking. I have put our dishes in the island in a drawer along with our silverware which I put in round canisters. It is easy access for the kids. Our dining table has windows running along it and it is a banquette.

The set up has worked great. Have fun!