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shiloh_mason

eliminate dining room

shiloh_mason
15 years ago

My kitchen is in the middle of the house and very dark. I was thinking of opening up the dining room to expand the kitchen into the dining room and thus, getting rid of the dining room. We would still have a large breakfast area and an island with stools so we have plenty of eating area. We only use our dining room at Thanksgiving anyways so we would applaud add'l space for the kitchen...mainly a homework area or casual sitting area. Has anyone seen this type of thing done or have any pictures? And, do you foresee any reasons why I wouldn't want the kitchen right off the foyer now (and in front of house) vs. the dining room? Thanks so much.

Comments (64)

  • mabnola
    15 years ago

    Our dining is off of the kitchen, separated by french doors. I am planning to put in custom cabs/bookshelves and use as a "keeping room". We mostly use it for quiet activities such as homework, reading etc but I will include a round table that can be expanded for the rare occasion that we need formal space. I saw an inspiration pic in "Cottage Living". It was all about multi uses for space. Our whole extended family is very informal and we love to all be in the kitchen pitching in.

  • igloochic
    15 years ago

    I guess we're a little old fashioned. I wouldn't consider buying a house without a separate dining room. Actually I wouldn't even look at one in a real estate add that didn't list a dining room. Sadly this might not get me into Mystery's home (and I love his space) but I have a dining room prejudice and would have to really be talked into seeing a home without one. At the very least, I wouldn't change it if you can't do something like Mystery has done (because really...that's a dining room, no matter what someone might call it) but to eliminate it altogether, it's a mistake when it comes to home value. Some people (and there are many of us out there) just aren't eat in kitchen people :) Shocking but true!

    We eat in our dining room every night. The kitchen is reserved for other meals and occasionaly when DS and I are on our own (don't tell DH but we sometimes eat in the bedroom then) :oP We also entertain frequently and want to do so outside of the kitchen. You don't need a butler and maid to do that ya know :oP

    So that's the perspective of someone who just won't consider doing such thing (eliminating a dining room)...but then again, don't they always say "put only X $ into your home blah blah blah" for resale? I say, put whatever you want into your home, as long as you are enjoying it. Just do so with the expectation that you'll pay the price for doing so later down the road. I probably won't recoup all of my remodel costs...and you may lose some home value long term (if it's not reversable prior to sale) but honestly that stuff should pale in comparison to the value you will get WHEN you are living in your home :) And if ditching the dining room is of value to you...go for it.

    As a small aside...I have to say, before I was with DH I never used a dining room much and would have agreed to ditch one, but he's been raised to use one, so we use it. At first it felt like holidays every night LOL but now, I don't enjoy dinner as much without the formal effort of setting the table and eating in a space dedicated to dinner and conversation, verses TV and no conversation. I think it's good for the family :) And I just can't get that same feeling on bar stools anymore.

  • abbycat9990
    15 years ago

    We did it. We saw that the house had good bones, but the galley kitchen was 70s harvest gold and had to go. When we decided to move, it was to get an eat-in kitchen and a yard fit for a playset. Well, we got the yard all right, but the kitchen took some planning.

    The public rooms rotated around a huge central chimney piece.
    View 1 - towards old kitchen, shows the lovely polished brass chandelier and some of the foyer:


    View 2 - window wall faces chimney wall; ladder is in galley doorway:

    The old DR space is now the kitchen. We can use the den area (beyond range wall) for a DR if necessary, although DD wants us to set up a table in the LR, as we did during the renovation LOL. She's not a fan of the counter height table:

    Still unsure about the fireplace and chimney wall.

  • joann23456
    15 years ago

    Sign my name to Igloochic's post. We eat dinner every night in our dining room, which also houses our piano. And I like a separate dining room for entertaining.

    Still, if I didn't like it, I wouldn't hesitate to do something else with it just because of some possible future buyer.

  • rahime
    15 years ago

    I love my DR, but I use it all the time. If you don't use it, use the space for something you will use...like the kitchen. I wouldn't do something to a house just for resale value unless I knew I was planning to move in the near future.

  • Jean Farrell
    15 years ago

    I rarely use my dining room, but I basically bought my house so that I would have a formal dining room. I love it. Would never give it up.

    I lived in various NYC apartments, which of course could never spare space for a dining room, and I always wanted one. We host Thanksgiving every years for a big crowd, and I wanted a formal space to do it in. I always had to set the table in the LR.

    Before we even moved into our house, we had a designer friend come look at the house, and the first thing she suggested was turning the DR into a family room, because no one uses such a formal space any more. We laughed. No way, the DR was the whole reason we bought the place.

    I can absolutely understand giving up the dining room for more space. The eating area in our kitchen is actually bigger than many people's dining rooms. We tore down a wall between the kitchen and an adjacent room that didn't really serve a purpose (the house was built in 1894, who knows what they used that room for, I sure don't) to make the eating area.

    We're lucky to have a fairly large house so we can spare the room to have casual and formal eating areas. I like having a formal room. Call me old-fashioned. But it has very formal wallpaper (dark green damask that looks like fabric), big crystal chandelier, a fireplace (that unfortunately does not currently work) with a huge antique silver mantel mirror over it. Formal dining room table and chairs, big china cabinet, sideboard, silk drapes. The whole deal. Just reading the description, I can imagine how a lot of people would hate it. But when the table is set with my good crystal and china, and the candles are lit, it makes me very happy. Besides, an old Victorian like mine would feel funny without a DR.

  • mysterymachine
    15 years ago

    Don't worry future buyers of Mystery's house (though I am not planning on selling) ... those that were around when I agonized over removing the wall may remember that I made my layout so the wall could be put back if someone wanted it back :)

  • sdlacrow
    15 years ago

    We have a formal dining room now and the plan for the new house to have one also (although bigger). We entertain a lot and I like having the dining area separate from the cooking area so my friends don't have to look at the disaster area I've created in the kitchen while creating their dinner. We will also have an eat-in area in the kitchen and will use that for most family meals and for the "kid's table" during dinner parties/get togethers. Our kids and our friends" kids all get along well (at least for now) and they've got their own conversations going on while the adults are talking and nobody can hear a thing. Now with the one space we tend to feed the small beasties and send them out to play and then the grown-ups eat. A separate dining room works for us and I wouldn't be without one if I could help it, but everyone should do what makes their space comfortable and fit the way they live. It's your house, it should feel like home.

  • tkln
    15 years ago

    I've been very interested to see the responses to this...we had a tiny eat in kitchen and a separate DR/LR and we tore down the wall separating the two...now we have counter seating and the dining table beyond that...breakfast at counter, dinner at table. I am happy with this set up for this house.

    But now, we are planning on moving and building new. And in thinking of how we live and entertain, I've been caught in the middle. Everyone always ends up in the kitchen no matter what. So island seating is a must. But I miss having a small table to sit and read the paper at, so I'd love a nook. But that means we would need a larger table for entertaining...so I guess we'd need a DR of some sort. But I'm not a formal DR kind of person...

    It's good to get some ideas of how other people feel about this as we try to decide planning on the new space...

    Lucy

  • pennylaney
    15 years ago

    This is very interesting! We are getting ready to move into a new custom home, and there will be no dining room. Or formal living room.... House is relatively small (2200 sq ft), and we decided to have a big family room/kitchen combo, because that's how we lived at the previous house. No island or eating bar either; just a BIG kitchen table in the middle of the kitchen! Trying to stay old-fashioned, and fit in with the character of my mother's 1849 farmhouse across the field.

    The original house plans had a dining room off the kitchen towards the front of the house, and I'm making it my office/library. It has 3 large floor to celing windows, and I'll be able to sit at my desk and see outside while working. No chandelier in there either.

    BTW, not worried about resale at all. Plan on being here on the family farm forever, unless something crazy happens.

    PennyLaney

  • cotehele
    15 years ago

    It depends on how you use the house. I use the DR when I want to focus on conversation when DS is home and of course when we have guests. DH would rarely eat in the DR; in front of the TV is his first choice. Our DR has been in three rooms: next to the kitchen (at the back of the house), in the middle of the house, and at the front of the house. Each room had it's pros and cons. At the front of the house it was convenient to the LR and had four nice windows. It was such a long way from the kitchen I used a tea cart to ferry food, dishes, drinks, etc. between the two rooms. Next to the kitchen was convenient, but the room was small and many steps from the LR. The only entry was through the kitchen. Currently the DR is in the middle of the house. The location is an acceptable compromise.

    What makes the DR worth the space is its dual use. We had moved all the furniture out of the room to repaint the (then) bedroom. DS was home on winter break and went in to practice guitar. The sound in the empty room w/hardwood floor was wonderful! The only furniture without soft surfaces was the DR table, so it became the DR. I use it as a practice room. All my music and flutes are in the closet. It is such a peaceful experience to face toward the garden when playing.

    In answer to your question, shiloh mason, I may eliminate the DR if the new kitchen works well. The primary entry for guests arriving by car will be into the old DR at the back of the house. The new kitchen will be in the same space as the old. A wall is coming down between the two spaces to make a 26x13.5 room. I hope it will be a cozy, inviting place to welcome guests, have tea and read the paper, chat while cooking and large enough to seat our extended family for occasional dinners. If the multipurpose use works, the present DR will change into a BR again. DH and I will share the old DR at the front of the house as the his (current) bicycle room and my music room. The LR is large enough to rearrange for a long DR table for family dinners if I get in a pickle. I like to keep my options open!

  • zelmar
    15 years ago

    We're going the opposite direction. I've never lived with a formal dining room and I'm looking forward to creating one off of our informal eating area, separated by French doors. I look at it more as a project room than a dining room---a place with a really large table on which I can spread out projects for weeks at a time without needing to clean them up each day. I hope to have plenty of empty storage so that these projects can be whisked away quickly if the table is needed for a meal (maybe I'll finally get 20 years of photos out of the multiple shoe boxes and into albums!!!) The piano will be moved into this room. I also look forward to being able to set the table for a family gathering/or other big dinner the day before and being able to close the door and have it undisturbed. The every day table can be used as a buffet table. I'm not a formal kind of person...no china, silver, or crystal..but am interested in finding ways to make life flow better.

    In your case, the elimination of the d.r. may be what makes things flow better for you via better light greeting you in the kitchen each day.

    I wouldn't necessarily consider a house without a separated dr as lacking but the idea of a multi-function room without any audio/video equipment with a large table in the heart of the house would be very appealing. My children are in their upper teens now, but I would have loved a d.r. when they were younger--a place that didn't have their toys when they were toddlers and a place to put their backpacks and school books and to do their homework when they were older.

  • nicoletouk
    15 years ago

    Lucy, I haven't noticed you posting for quite a while - it's nice to see you're back!

    When remodeling this new (to us) house, I did the opposite of everyone else and eliminated the breakfast nook, making the whole kitchen/nook space all kitchen. It allowed us to have counter seating in the kitchen, which was more important than table seating.

    I don't regret it in the least as I enjoy the DR. It is roomy, has a nice view with big windows and it just feels right for this formal center-entrance colonial. I'm in it as I type this!

    For families with young kids or those who prefer eating in the kitchen, I think this best option with a DR is to not eliminate it, but use it for another purpose like a music room, office or playroom. I think a lot has to do with the style of the home, as well. A cedar home on a lake doesn't warrant a DR. The in-town Victorian does.

    I have long thought there would be a trend back to DRs as people got tired of dining in the midst of the messy kitchen. I'm still waiting!

    Nicole

  • jtalb
    15 years ago

    We opened our kitchen to the DR but the two spaces are still separated (by a penisula) and remain separate rooms. Similar to mysterymachine's kitchen.

    Our KD tried to talk me into the idea of making one big kitchen, but I really like having a DR table in a separate area.

  • nuccia
    15 years ago

    I do not like to eat meals on stools and certainly not in a formal DR, so we eat in an 11 x 11 breakfast room that is glassed in on two sides, and has large openings to the kitchen and mud room. This room is perfect for every day.

    Big holiday dinners keep getting bigger as the kids bring home friends, etc., and we needed to deal with that as well. We have our dining room furniture (soon to be replaced--yeah)at one end of the great room, so when we expect a lot of people, we just move some furniture out of the way and add tables, restaurant style. This is so much more practical for us, but I know I could never have done it in my two story center-hall colonial.

    I think I would eliminate the DR if I were you. Realtors can always rename and repurpose the rooms if the market warrants it when you're looking to sell.

    Good Luck with your decision.

  • kren_pa
    15 years ago

    we use our dining room...to eat in! but then again we are picky and don't like to eat on stools or with tv nearby. our kid also does homework in the DR, although there is a spot elsewhere. we do not have seating in our kitchen but i would like to add a small cafe table and 1/2 chairs. this arrangement works for us and it's a good thing, because the kitchen is located between 2 stairwells (1 to basement, 1 to upstairs)meaning we cannot open it to any other room. however, rooms are what you call them...one small bedroom has become a tv den. in our friends' house, the DR is now living room and a bedroom is now the DR. however you arrange it, it is nice to have the kitchen on an outside wall....do what you can to get that feature. good luck kren

  • ganggreen980
    15 years ago

    I think it depends on the house. In our current house, which is a 70s split-entry, the dining room and living room form an L with the kitchen to the right of the dining room. In our case, the dining room is very small. I have a Duncan Phyfe reproduction table and chairs. The table is a bit narrower than tables today. However, it still doesn't give much space at all to move around the table. We can seat 6, but that's about it. When we do have 6, we have to put the kids on the back side of the table as it's too squishy for anyone else in there. While not a totally useless space, it's certainly not as functional as it could be.

    It also always seemed weird to me to have the kitchen table and chairs and dining room table and chairs essentially side by side.

    So, we've simply eliminated the walls. We will have an island for breakfast and lunch and meals on the run, but we will now use the dining room table for family dinners, whether that's just the 4 of us or more. Our new arrangement will allow us to shift the dining table over a bit more to give us more breathing room. We will no longer, however, have a "formal" dining room.

    All that said, if we had a house where we had a true formal dining room, one that was a good size and could be closed off, I would not like to lose it.

    I think that if I were building my own house, I would have a formal dining room. It's just that in our current house, it's not working well.

  • amylville
    15 years ago

    I eliminated the wall between the kitchen and dining room in my 1920s bungalow. The dining room was mearly a "drop zone" between my living room and kitchen. Just because the space is now "open" does not mean we don't sit down as a family without TV for meals. Here is a before and after. Dining room table is in the same place in both pix.

    Kitchen before

    Dining room before


    After:

  • mom2lilenj
    15 years ago

    Sorry for the hijack..
    amylville, may I ask, what did you do with the cabinets (or doors) in the before Kitchen view? Those latches and cabinet style are the same as what I'm putting in my kitchen.

  • annettacm
    15 years ago

    Okay, Amylville, another picture to save in my "LOVE IT" file. We redid our kitchen 4 years ago (and I was on this site a lot... but never posted pics because i still can't figure out how!), and I removed my wall between the rooms. Now I'm moving in a house very similar in floor plan to this one, and my wall is back up in this new home! But since the kitchen is a bit bigger, I don't think we'll go through the trouble again (we want to move a wall upstairs to make the kids' rooms more functional, and DH will only let me tear down one wall per house :).

    Anyway, my new kitchen is white, with white formica and white backsplash, and I want to eventually change the all white island to something wood, with a beige granite/quartz... so your picture will go on my list of ideas! Thanks!

  • igloochic
    15 years ago

    It's interesting to see how people use these spaces :) Rest assured Mystery...that place would sell with or without that wall LOL but it was a good example of a listing I'd snub (inappropriately) if it didn't list a "dining room" specifically, even though you really do have a specfic dining space separate from the kitchen. Sometimes when home shopping those little things tend to weed out the good and the bad, but I wanted to share how "I" would shop if that helped the OP at all.

    I like the idea of a room that is fitted like Mystery's home. While the wall is down, there is still a very specfic space for dining. It's separate enough from the kitchen to have the intimacy that many of us feel is necessary for a dining room, and yet isn't hemmed in by walls. I don't like to entertain in the kitchen (or with it right up next to the table) because people feel like they have to get up and clean for some reason. With a separate space, they tend to focus on the experience of dining and not worry about the mess in the kitchen.

    We are shopping for the next home and our main priority is a large kitchen and a larger dining room. We can sit 8 now, but that is about it. We'd like to be able to easily sit 12 and have room for a tight 16 to 20 if possible. :) Do we feed 16 to 20 people at the table very often? No, but we'd like to know we can if we want to LOL

    Oh and I have a small child and still use the dining room :) It's probably more important to me now than it was without a child, because I like that family feeling when we're all at the dining table (mind you my son does not eat but there's always the hope). We like our dining room for family so much that we have two highchairs, one plastic thingie (I hate plastic) and one "formal" bentwood highchair for the dining room :)

  • november
    15 years ago

    We're about to get rid of our DR. Our remodel is done, and with our big island and breakfast area, and adjoining family room, we'll never use the DR (or the living room). We're going to make it into a sitting room, and we're turning the living room into the office. I'm really excited!

  • tkln
    15 years ago

    Hi Nicole!

    Ironically, though the remodel was done over 2 years ago, I've never stopped reading posts...still love seeing all the beautiful kitchens and though I haven't contributed much in that time, I'll be back more often as we deal with this possible move, and the kitchen problems that come with it!

    Lucy

  • plants4
    15 years ago

    Sign me on to Igloochic's position.

    I'm old fashioned. I think that people should eat together as a family on chairs at a table and without a television as many nights of the week as possible. A dining room is the place to do that.

    In addition, I'd say that I suppose it depends upon the house. What I can't stand is when people take old houses and tear down walls and try to modernize them in ways that come out wrong. No architectural integrity to the result.

  • nicoletouk
    15 years ago

    I just want to clarify my earlier post about eliminating our breakfast nook in order to have counter seating. The counter seating is for the kids breakfast and snacks, homework, and visitors in the kitchen. No way do we as a family eat at the counter!

    All of our meals are taken in the DR. And we are very big on eating dinner together as a family! Those of you with school-age kids know how many sports and activities are scheduled at dinner time. We have limited our missed dinners to once a week. If an activity requires more missed dinners than that, forget it. There have been numerous studies done regarding the positive effects of eating dinner together as a family - all of which are more important than soccer, IMO.

    Tangent - My 9 yo was interested in getting involved in cheerleading, so I talked to the cheer coach for our town's football league. For nine year olds the practice was from 5 pm - 8 pm five nights a week from August-November. The first three months also required cheering at Saturday afternoon games, while November was filled with all-day cheer competitions. Did I mention this was for nine year olds?

    We decided not to do cheerleading. We'll be in our dining room instead.

    Nicole

  • annettacm
    15 years ago

    Well, I guess we didn't really get rid of our DR... we just got rid of the wall. The chandelier still is in the same place. A table still exists, and the wainscoting is still up. We just can talk to the people in the kitchen and FR as we sit at our table. The ONLY thing we don't have is a more formal dining table. We still have the maple/white kitchen table, which is way too dinky for the DR space. My dream was to get a nice cherry/black farm table that would seat 10 at least, but that is on hold now that we are moving. The DR still lives, just with a bit less seclusion.

    And btw, our old kitchen table area was replaced with a larger island with stools that seats four. Not where I'd serve family dinners (there are 5 of us).

  • sayde
    15 years ago

    Even though we're empty nesters now DH and I always eat in the dining room. I'm not a messy cook but I just could not relax sitting among the smells and the unwashed pots and prep stuff. I need to be able to exit the kitchen, close the door, sit down at a set table and take a deep breath. I could see having a dining room that does double duty as a library much more easily than a kitchen that does double duty as a dining room. I never "got" dinettes, breakfast areas and eat in kitchens, but never had the luxury of a house large enough for one of these and a formal dining room too.

  • scootermom
    15 years ago

    This is such an interesting thread. I can see the value in everybody's opinions, and different things work for different people. Wish I was more decisive, though!

    Right now, we have an L-shaped LR/DR. The DR part of that is not very big, but when we want to seat more people, we just add leaves to the table and it stretches a little bit into the LR area -- no big deal. We can seat up to 14 that way, and we've done it on many occasions. You'd never look at it and say "formal DR", it's more of a dedicated dining area. We eat our meals in the DR because there are too many backpacks on the kitchen table to eat in the kitchen. And we use the DR table for homework, playing games, coloring, drawing, snacks. (We use the kitchen table for that stuff occasionally when it's cleared off)!

    In planning our new kitchen/mudroom/homework area, I've toyed w/ eliminating the separate DR area and incorporating that space into the kitchen. And I just can't do it -- even with seating at an island or peninsula, I just think we'd miss the table in the DR. When we have guests, we usually put kids in one room, grownups in the other, buffet on the peninsula, and it works out well.

    The more I try to work out a different layout, the more I appreciate some things about our existing one! That's why I've been stuck for so long. I'm trying to embrace the change-is-good mantra, but the more I think about it, I keep coming full circle back to where I started (or close to it). I'm beginning to accept that it's ok to do that -- the changes don't have to be radical to work.

    I love Mystery's kitchen/DR. The nice open space between them makes it look more like two rooms than one - visually distinct and spatially distinct, in my mind.

  • bbtondo
    15 years ago

    Scootermom: Sounds like we have the same setup. L shape LR/DR/Kitchen. We're taking down the 1/2 wall between the DR and kitchen and separating the 2 rooms with a peninsula. The DR "area" is very small and open to the LR. I'll still have the same space and table in the DR, but now it will be totally open to the kitchen and will also share the same flooring as the kitchen. Currently the DR and LR have rug. When we host holidays we put 2 tables end to end and extend into the LR. We can seat 25 people that way! I have a small ranch so I need to use every inch of space the best that we can.
    Barb

  • shiloh_mason
    Original Author
    15 years ago

    Thank you for all your messages. We are moving forward with pricing out the removal of the wall (and subsequent cabinet layout change due to the wall change). We are excited about our new room. Although our current dining is very pretty, it is just never used since we have a fairly large kitchen table. We are looking forward to our next step! Maybe a window seat with cushions and small round table for homework in the old dining room?? I tried sending you a photo of the current rooms..not sure if I did it correctly.

  • tonilynne
    15 years ago

    Our house had a very dark, cramped kitchen with a small dining room off to the left of the kitchen. We took the wall down and made it one big room.

    We re-purposed some of the other rooms of the house, though. What was the formal LR is now our family room, and what used to be the family room/den is now our dining room. It works great because we are in a center hall colonial, so the layout is very easy to use. Plus, the dining room is off the mudroom/laundry room, which means I use the dining room every day. The table makes a great folding station!

  • stiles
    15 years ago

    We just finished our remodel and changed our dr to the homework center and eating area. It completely fits our lifestyle in that I can be in the kitchen while the kids are doing homework, or I can be in my corner of the homework center doing paperwork while they are doing homework.

    We put in a banquette at one end of the room and the homework desk at the other end of the room. You can see pics on the finishedkitchens under stiles. (our eating table has changed from the one in the pic.)

    IF you are going to live in your home for 10+ years-make it your space.

  • jejvtr
    15 years ago

    Many previous threads on this very subject

    I'm with Fern

    "I'm old fashioned. I think that people should eat together as a family on chairs at a table and without a television as many nights of the week as possible. A dining room is the place to do that.

    In addition, I'd say that I suppose it depends upon the house. What I can't stand is when people take old houses and tear down walls and try to modernize them in ways that come out wrong. No architectural integrity to the result"

    In addition there is a big component that is not often thought of as people are attempting to gain space by eliminating DR - Noise (several threads on this as well) - opening walls in homes increases noise - esp when the walls being eliminated are plaster which are replaced by 1/2" sheetrock - and old cast iron plumbing replaced by PVC pipe = more noise

    Our DR is an intimate size aprox 11'x11' - has 2 casement openings from the kit and a set of lovely french pocket doors fr. foyer/DR - During our renovation we returned the room back to what I imagined it was in the 1930's - got a lovely Duncan phyfe DR set (made in 30's) new WP and rehabbed the orig chandelier -It's my fav room in our house. We use the DR frequently and I find that we hang out much more after finishing our meal than if we ate at the kitchen table -

    Good luck interesting post

  • polie
    15 years ago

    I love having a dining room. We use it everyday starting with breakfast, lunches on the weekends, and dinners. Wonderful not to have to eat in the kitchen, but to each his own.

  • cat499
    15 years ago

    DH and I went though this process. Why do men always want to eat in their darn recliner? I love a sit down dinner.

  • marybeth1
    15 years ago

    this was a very interesting topic, i am going through the same thing my kitchen is in the middle of the house even worse no window but i do have a sky light the kichen is attached to a family room which we love. the most unused room in my house is my formal living room which is an l shape to my dining room we are thinking of expanding our kitchen into the dining room and eliminating the living room and using it as our dining room the only thing is that it would be in the front of the house and i'm not sure how that would look please excuse typo's i am typing with a broken hand. i would love to see how everthing works out 1

  • Buehl
    15 years ago

    Thought I'd weigh in...

    Our kitchen is also in the middle of the house, but the back of the house...all of our rooms have at least one window to the outside. In our old kitchen, we had a tiny eat-in area in an 18" bay window bump out. It worked for us while the kids were young. But now that they've grown, we've grown out of that area.

    Meanwhile, our formal DR was used a playroom for the kids from the day we moved in in 1995 until about 2 or 3 years ago. My children also outgrew the Playroom (we now have about 1/3 of our basement finished with a very large "toy/game" closet w/lots of shelves for not only current toys/games but those that either the kids or I couldn't give up!). We reclaimed the DR as a DR, but only used it at Easter, Thanksgiving, and Christmas. The rest of the year it was used as (1) dumping ground for mail and (2) more recently, a place for me to put my laptop & papers when I worked from home (more room than in the small computer room we have.)

    At the same time, our formal LR was rarely used...but it was nice to have a room that was usually straightened up when we had company; and it's right off the front door.

    We have a good size FR so, the formal LR isn't really needed.

    Then came the remodel. Yes, the main thrust is the kitchen, but after working hard w/our design/layout, we finally decided to make several changes:

    • Eliminate the tiny "eat in" part of the kitchen. Instead, we added sorely needed counter space and cabinetry by putting a row of cabinets/counter in front of and on either side of the bay window. To accomplish this, we had to raise the bay window from only 22" off the floor to 36". But, we did get much more energy efficient windows!

      (As to add'l counterspace, we may have gone overboard...our granite cost was much more than we originally anticipated!)

    • "Computer" space notwithstanding, we decided to use the DR for all our family meals...all year long. We also feel very strongly about dinner...everyone is present and no TV! Conversation is our "entertainment!" While we haven't necessarily curtailed our children's activities, we do make every effort to eat together for the vast majority of our meals. We have even been known to rearrange meal time if a game interferes. (Since I work outside the home...in VA but live in MD...I cannot get home in time to make dinner before games.)

    • But, our DR was cut off from the kitchen by a 33" doorway. So, we took down most of the wall b/w the kitchen & DR. After the kitchen is done (even before the backsplash), we're putting in a wood floor and will "upgrade" the DR w/wainscoting and crown molding. The formality of the meal will be determined by the linens & dishes used.

    • For informal dining (snacks, breakfast, Saturday lunch), we are putting in a 2-seat peninsula b/w the kitchen & DR. There will also be room for homework and projects on the 5' peninsula.

    • Our LR is going to be converted to a Music Room. We already have a piano there,...

  • acountryfarm
    15 years ago

    I find this thread intriguing as well.
    I will say that my entire house was built with dining room in mind. I can not wait until we are able to sit down every night together in a room big enough for all of us.
    I personally would never allow a TV to be on during dinner, no phones are answered either. We consider meal time to be a priority and want the peacefulness of a sorta separate room. We have many children so the DR is a fairly lg. room at 22 X 19

    I also love to entertain and want to be able to sit everyone down in one room.

    There are many good reasons to have or not to have, which is why I love to hear everybody's opinions, likes & dislikes. So interesting.

  • lowspark
    15 years ago

    We did sort of the opposite. The breakfast room we had was too small, the four of us had to squeeze in to eat there and it just wasn't comfortable. So, I got rid of it and expanded the kitchen into that space.

    I did put in a 2-person eating bar that was meant to be for breakfast or quick snacks which usually involves only one or two people. Additionally, the remodel was completed in Nov 04, and here we are in May 08 getting ready to become empty nesters so it was a short time till there were only two of us living here and a two person bar is perfect.

    Now, when we eat together we use the DR, which gets so much more use than it did when we squeezed into the BR nook. And I like having that DR which is separate from the kitchen, it's nice to eat away from all the dishes & pots & prep stuff that went on to make dinner.

    By the way, expanding the kitchen into the former BR area entailed bricking in a window. So we enlarged the existing kitchen window from a small high window into a large counter height bay window which became one of my favorite things of the remodel. It lets in a lot of light and gives the room an expansive feel.

  • sarschlos_remodeler
    15 years ago

    Oh, I am so torn about this topic. OTOH, we use our separate dining room every day, for nearly every meal (unless we're eating a casual pizza meal while watching a movie or a picnic meal outside), and I really like not having to look at the kitchen mess during meal times. OTOH, our floor plan feels fairly choppy. The house has a certain amount of open mid-century feel to the exterior, but the interior feels like one small choppy room after another, and would be really pretty with a lot of wide open spaces. So, for the way we live, I like having the choppy rooms, but for the way the house would look best, I am seriously considering removing the walls between kitchen, dining and family room to make one great room. If only someone could make up my mind for me, LOL!

  • holligator
    15 years ago

    I missed this thread when it was originally posted, but I found it while searching for something else and thought I'd chime in. This issue was the major hold-up on our remodel for years. My old kitchen was small, poorly designed, and generally unworkable. I'm sure I could have figured out a way to make it work had I known about this forum then, but I didn't. I was hesitant to eliminate the formal dining room for all the reasons mentioned (my mom is a retired Realtor, so I considered those reasons carefully). We discovered, however, that it was the right decision for us.

    Once I decided to tear down that wall, so many possibilities were suddenly available to me. There were also some new limitations imposed. Tearing down the wall meant that the kitchen would now be much more visible from other parts of the house, so issues like cabinet choices and layout became that much more important.

    Also, we did have another area that could serve as a dining room--a portion of our huge, L-shaped sunroom that we never used--so I didn't completely lose that "formal" dining space. This was important to me mostly because I do love our dining room furniture, even though we seldom used it. So, we moved the furniture we never used to the space we never used, and we love it. It brightens up that area, and we actually use it more now. Also, the table's new location means I can actually use all the leaves at Thanksgiving when we have a big crowd. The old setup didn't allow room for that, and we had to use a second table in another room.

    The kitchen, meanwhile, retained a large enough eating area that I will be able to easily fit a table for six there (when I find the table I want). The furniture in that portion of the kitchen is not at all kitcheny, so it retains a little of that more formal feel to it, even though it is now completely open to the kitchen.

    We do love to entertain, and we have had a couple of small gatherings since the remodel. This week, we had a party for about 30 people. I cannot tell you how much better the new layout works for entertaining! It has been fabulous! People always gravitated to our kitchen during parties anyway, but before it was cramped and, if I was still cooking, the crowd was always in my way. Now, there's plenty of room for people to mingle while staying out of my way.

    Our house is older (1942) and this change did modernize it, but it works very, very well both with the house's style and ours. The house is unusual for its era, because it has always had a very casual feel to it, almost like a hunting lodge. The comment we've heard over and over and over is "I can't believe how well the new kitchen fits the house." The old kitchen didn't fit well at all, and this one does. That made this decision a good one for us.

  • positano
    15 years ago

    We are also taking down the wall between the kitchen and dining room. Just like Holligator it will be seen from more areas in the house now, so I'm trying to figure out the right choices for cabinets.

    Here's a question for you. How did you handle the floors? We have hardwood in the dining room and tile in the kitchen. I think it would be hard to match the wood, and I really don't want to rip up the DR wood and replace it. The kitchen also flows into the mudroom and bathroom. KD says to do tile up to the penninsula and keep DR wood. Does anyone have pictures of half wood/half tile?

    I'm so excited to make this change. We have a very small kitchen now, with the change we could actually entertain a little.

  • laxsupermom
    15 years ago

    I think unless you'll be moving real soon you should always do what works for you and your family. We mostly eat in our DR or on the patio during the summer. Although we have been known to eat in front of the tv in the family room on occasion also. We never eat dinner in the kitchen because of the layout. The eat-in portion of our kitchen is 10'6 x 10', but is really only big enough for a table for four because of the traffic patterns to the slider to the patio and the main part of the kitchen. We really only eat breakfast there. There are only four of us, but come dinner time I've usually acquired a couple of extra neighborhood kids or random family members who don't cook(DB, cousin)

    My future kitchen (demo begins in two weeks as soon as school lets out) eliminates the awkward eat-in area by sending my penninsula out at an angle into the room w/ a raised eating bar on two sides of it (again we only eat breakfast in the kitchen) and replacing my sliders w/ outswing french doors. This makes the entire 24' x 10'6 space kitchen instead of the current main kitchen/ eat-in kitchen separated by a penninsula w/ uppers.

    I know other people would hate to lose the eat-in area to a raised eating bar, but I plan on living here for at least until my kids are out of school and the little one is only 3.

  • cooksnsews
    15 years ago

    20 years ago we purchased a beautiful formal dining room suite. Since this furniture is definitely of "keeper" quality, it has determined the layout of every house we have lived in since. If I knew then what I know now, I think I'd have opted for different furniture, something that the family could eat at everyday. Instead, we are pretty much tied to the concept of a formal dining room, plus an eat-in kitchen. We're now planning a big kitchen reno, but won't even contemplate knocking down the wall between kitchen and DR, since our furniture dictates function.

    We eat everyday family meals around a nice round table in the kitchen, but eat in the DR if we have more than 5 people for dinner. Mind you, whenever we have company, everyone hangs around in the kitchen until chow time, when we have to herd them to the DR. When the DR is not being used for dining, I tend to have two or more sewing machines on the table, often in some state of disassembly. I can't imagine having any room that is solely for show.

  • oruboris
    15 years ago

    I'm not a big fan of two dining areas. Most plans I've seen, I'd rather eliminate the nook [maybe replace it with a bar that allows socializing when entertaining] and have a larger kitchen.

    I like dining rooms. I like having all the cooking mess out of sight while eating, just makes for a more relaxing experience. But that's part of the reason I don't go for too formal a space. Has to be comfortable for jeans and t-shirts, breakfast on a weekday, that sort of thing.

  • vicnsb
    15 years ago

    This is really a lifestyle decision. I could not imagine ever using a formal
    separate dining room, even when entertaining.
    We have a southern california indoor/outdoor lifestyle that works with open spaces. So I am planning for that.

    Think about YOUR lifestyle and plan accordingly, best of luck!

  • neesie
    15 years ago

    I kind of resent the fact that many of the pro-dining room posters have the perception that us "eat-in kitchen people" have a tv in every room and leave it on 24/7.

    That being said, I have an eat-in kitchen. We do not have the tv on 24/7 and definitely not when we're eating as a family. We were the last family known to man to get cable tv (3 months ago) and only then because it came bundled with the high-speed internet package I had to switch to. I didn't want cable tv during the years I was raising my kids. Now I'm just down to the 19yo son and 22 yo daughter when she's not at college. They, and their older sibilings have turned out okay.

    Just had to vent so you can see not all eat in kitchens harbor some low class disease!

  • rosie
    15 years ago

    Of course everyone doesn't eat their dinners in the breakfast area to watch TV in the background, Neesie, so don't be offended. That doesn't apply to you guys.

    Let's face it, though, many people do; and with an astonishing number of people mislead into assuming a separate dining room must be decorated formally with nontouch furniture, it's an important nail that needs some good hitting in any discussion on where and how a family chooses to dine.

    Too often breakfast area dining tends to facilitate routinely letting children run off to play before others are finished, answering and chatting on the phone or with friends who drop by during mealtime, quarreling and/or discussing topics unpleasant or uninteresting to others, doing without serving dishes (and occasionally dishes altogether), and just plain letting go of most of the conventions that come with a time designated as special for dining.

    Whereas, designing and furnishing that separate room as a heavyduty but appealing and special place for everyday family dining provides a structure for a daily family together time and instilling desired behavior patterns.

    After all, not every parent (me!) has the discipline to consistently avoid all the distractions that come with casual folks living multifunction lives in multifunction spaces, so parents at least who are lucky enough to have a separate room for dining have an asset worth a lot deeper consideration than they are too often given.

  • cooksnsews
    15 years ago

    I'm with neesie on this one. Some of us eat in our kitchens because our kitchen tables are more suited to the size of our everyday meals, not because manners in a kitchen are allowed to be more informal than in any other room. My round kitchen table is perfect for the four of us, and a fifth can be added comfortably if one of the kiddoes has a friend over. The dining room gets used when there are 6-14 here for a meal - the space is overwhelming for a small group, but invaluable when the extended families show up for chow.

    I'm a big fan of family meals eaten together. One of my KD's suggestions was to put in a large island with seating along one edge, like every kitchen featured in every kitchen magazine shows. It ain't happening! I love my kitchen table.

  • shelayne
    15 years ago

    We recently tore the wall down between our kitchen and dining room, as the kitchen is not very functional, and the dining room was basically used only for special occasions. Even when I host my "Girlfriend Brunch" every summer, I would push the dining table against the wall for all the food I prepared, buffet style and set up tables on our deck and backyard.

    Now the space has so much light streaming in from the dining room windows, and it is just seems so large and bright. Besides the wall being removed, we did not change the structural integrity of the dining area. It has an arched opening to our living room and has coved ceilings. We left a header in the wall to save the integrity of the cove. Also, it would have looked quite strange to have coved ceiling joined with non-coved ceiling.

    I already love it, and we have barely started.