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feisty68

WWYD - fabricators on coffee break, granite overhang inconsistent

feisty68
9 years ago

The overhangs vary quite a bit even within a short cabinet run. The end overhang is not as specified. Wait until they're done to bring it up? Talk to the big boss? They're on a coffee break.

Comments (45)

  • elizabeth714
    9 years ago

    don't wait until they're done.

  • feisty68
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    I talked to them. They are measuring a lot. I showed them the diagram that I gave the big boss.

  • feisty68
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    They're going to reposition the entire thing before they epoxy the seam. I was stressed about today...with reason.

  • crl_
    9 years ago

    Fingers crossed for you!

  • greenhaven
    9 years ago

    Hang in there! You are doing great!

  • feisty68
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    Big boss is coming because the little piece is WAY off - requiring either a giant crooked seam or re-doing the edge to have a consistent overhang depth.

    This post was edited by feisty68 on Wed, May 21, 14 at 14:49

  • Errant_gw
    9 years ago

    Is it because the wall or cabinets are out of whack?

  • feisty68
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    Of course they are blaming the walls and cabinets - but all of those were in place when the templating was done.

    The big boss managed to correct the inconsistencies to be within an acceptable level - I think and hope. He defended the installers' work, but he also shifted the angles of all of the countertop pieces to make the overhang depth consistent, the counter depth consistent on either side of the range, and to make the range opening width consistent. The installers just didn't have their measuring tapes out much at all.

  • feisty68
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    I thought the counters were not level, but I looked again and they are not that bad.

    The overhangs are pretty good but it took a LOT tweaking and drywall hacking to get there.

    The seam is a dark grey line but it's somewhat disguised by the granite pattern.

    This post was edited by feisty68 on Wed, May 21, 14 at 16:09

  • mgmum
    9 years ago

    I'm glad you were there and got it sorted out before it got too out of hand!

  • feisty68
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    They just left and I just realized that they didn't attach the sink!

  • bicyclegirl1
    9 years ago

    I'm sorry to hear how stressful this has been. I know nothing about attaching a sink, but hope that it's not that difficult & they can come back & get er done! It sounds like everything else came out to your liking. Glad you were home & able to call the big boss. Sounds like you're getting closer. Hang in there.

  • Errant_gw
    9 years ago

    Pictures, Feisty!!! :)

  • feisty68
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    Sink is attached. Not sure about the support method - pieces of epoxied wood, and plumbing strapping.

    I just realized that there is nothing attaching the granite to the island. What is standard? That is obviously hazardous with a 15" overhang. He told us that we should add 6" brackets to support the overhang (could be after installation he said), but I assumed that the counter would be anchored down somehow.

    Do you think this EVERBILT 6 Inch Zinc Corner Brace would work to support the counter where the seam goes over the corner cabinet?

    Hi Errant - I posted pics in my thread "take a peek at my "soft modern" small kitchen design?". I don't think I can repost them here.

  • Mags438
    9 years ago

    Oh feisty, I'm feeling you! I'm so nervous about my upcoming countertop install too. So glad to hear you got a good bit taken care of to your satisfaction. Interested in support remedy, as I also have a 15" overhang. I just have 2- 6" cabinet wood braces. I hope that's enough

  • feisty68
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    OK, the counter IS glued down to the island. I guess I'm doing that freaking out thing. The corners aren't rounded as we discussed and put in my diagram, but that's not the end of the world.

    Mags438, I might order steel brackets specifically designed for granite island overhangs.

  • jellytoast
    9 years ago

    May I ask why they didn't specify that you needed brackets when they did the templating so that you could take care of that before installation?

  • PRO
    Joseph Corlett, LLC
    9 years ago

    "Sink is attached. Not sure about the support method - pieces of epoxied wood, and plumbing strapping."

    I've reattached at least twenty sinks that were initially installed with wood blocking bridging the sink flange and top and adhered with polyester.

    This is not a good sign.

  • Mags438
    9 years ago

    Jellytoast, that's such a valid question. I'm wondering if I will be informed of that next week during my template. I think I'll start a new post.

  • OOTM_Mom
    9 years ago

    OK Treb you have me concerned now. I just looked under my prep sink. Is this what you are talking about as not a good install? Greyish white is the spray dampnening on my Franke sink. Lighter wood looks like blocks they put in there, and then there are small shims. Darker color is cabinet side. You can see corner thingy, which is front top corner of sink cabinet. You can just make out the edge of the SS sink lip, the curved part near the corner...which appears to be just barely on the wood blocks. My apologies for the hijack.

  • jellytoast
    9 years ago

    "Jellytoast, that's such a valid question. I'm wondering if I will be informed of that next week during my template. I think I'll start a new post."

    I asked because it would have been impossible to install the type of brackets we used if we waited until after the granite was installed. Not to mention the installers would have refused to install without the proper support in place. I would think that installing support brackets after the fact would limit your choices.

  • sjhockeyfan325
    9 years ago

    We didn't need overhang supports, but when our countertop was template, we were given very explicit instructions for the GC as to what areas needed plywood etc.

  • feisty68
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    Jellytoast, I really think big boss should have informed us that additional support was needed in the corner cabinet area during templating. But I think the 8" zinc bracket attached to the cabinet side will be an inelegant fix. It would have been nicer to have a steel brace across the top. The fabricator did make some messy reinforcements with wood and epoxy under the counter.

    Trebuchet, we are planning to retrofit the sink setter since we already have it. I don't feel confident that his support method is adequate.

    Dh was VERY unhappy when he came home to inspect everything:

    1. sink cutout - fabricator convinced me to do a neutral reveal but dh feels the cutout (done using a template) is uneven

    2. sink caulking - quite visible due to reveal and quite recessed - holes in caulking, not sure if air bubbles or go all the way through (they were rushing because they had to be called back to do the sink)

    3. two marks which big boss said were natural but we think look like scorch marks - could this happen during cutting? (see photo below) . It is true that this granite type has weird smudges so I can't be 100% sure that it's natural? This is the greatest aesthetic issue, and the hardest issue to fix.

    4. corners weren't rounded as specified (discussed and diagram given)

    5. end of cabinet run overhang was not shorter as specified (discussed and diagram given) - I only wanted to end up with 1/4" overhang beyond end panel because I am planning to add non-kitchen cabinets along same wall

    I think I will call him to add more caulk to the sink and do another coat of sealant (water is soaking in this morning after the two coats they did). Not sure how to deal with the other issues. The possible scorch marks are on the largest L shaped piece that was such a PITA to get in, and had a seam. Feels like it might be asking for trouble to get it fixed given the gong show the first time around.

    Here's the photo showing a larger scorch mark near the caulk line in the middle-ish, then a smaller one to the left, and the seam to the left of that.

    This post was edited by feisty68 on Thu, May 22, 14 at 11:52

  • feisty68
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    Here's the whole granite job for context - for reference, the seam runs parallel to the sink wall.

    This post was edited by feisty68 on Thu, May 22, 14 at 11:58

  • PRO
    Joseph Corlett, LLC
    9 years ago

    OTTOmom:

    I don't like it. I can't see any screws into the blocking and it is impossible to screw into the face of the blocking with the sink in place. Maybe they screwed in through the adjacent cabinet? If polyester is the only thing holding that blocking in place, that sink is coming down. It's just a matter of when.

    A failed sink isn't nearly as bad as one that leaks for years before it drops. A leaking sink can deliver water to a steel reinforcement rod that's been bedded in polyester, penetrate, and rust the rod. Steel expands as it oxidizes and will crack any stone on earth.

    I'm fixing one of these on the 27th. Get comfortable with $900.00-$1,500.00 or I won't show. And no guarantee on cosmetics.

    Check out the third paragraph of the link, written by Wiki Editor, Northern California repairperson, and friend, Jim Heaphy:

    Here is a link that might be useful: Oxide jacking

    This post was edited by Trebruchet on Thu, May 22, 14 at 13:25

  • PRO
    Joseph Corlett, LLC
    9 years ago

    feisty68:

    1.Your sink reveal is or is not neutral. Set a combination square on the top with the sliding rule into the sink and gauge the reveal or lack thereof in several places on each side.

    2. See if you can easily remove the sink caulking. If you can, this means they didn't caulk the flange, but applied the caulk topically. With the polyestered blocking, this is starting to scream for a do-over.

    3. If your granite has a propensity for weird smudges, the benefit of the doubt goes to the fabricator. That looks like a natural rust stain to me. If it's a heat mark from cutting it will be the first one I've ever seen. Maybe a sweaty palm print, but I doubt it. It fades out too nicely.

    4-5. Corners and overhang can easily be reprofiled on site. It's putting them back on that's hard.

    This post was edited by Trebruchet on Thu, May 22, 14 at 13:26

  • PRO
    Joseph Corlett, LLC
    9 years ago

    fiesty68:

    I've watched the linked Sink Setter installation video and am unable to see how it could be retrofitted. Retrofitting a Hercules Universal Sink Harness is not a problem.

    Here is a link that might be useful: Sink Setter

  • PRO
    Joseph Corlett, LLC
    9 years ago

    feisty68:

    I bought a box of these but haven't tried them yet, however, I will say from experience that this is the way to go for you:

    Here is a link that might be useful: Cinclips

  • feisty68
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    Thank you for helping me sort this out Trebuchet. You're a star :)

    sink reveal -
    this is what I measured:
    neg 1/8" at back
    neg 1/16" on left
    neutral on front
    neutral on right

    sink support -
    thank you for the cinclips recommendation. I will see if I can get them locally.

    smudges -
    that is helpful to have your opinion that they are not scorch marks. I could not see those smudges on my photos of the slabs, but I notice that the smudges are MUCH more noticeable in certain lighting conditions. that may mean that they are internal to the stone? and it means I may be able to use lighting to make them look less inconspicuous. currently I can see them from 10 feet away as I enter the kitchen (but of course I know they're there)

    sink caulking -
    I'm pretty sure that they applied caulk to the sink flange. I was there when they did it and it was quite multi-step procedure involving two guys working together doing different parts. They did all the supporting stuff after they did the caulking from above stuff. They said that the problem with their method was that it was almost impossible to get the sink OFF if a change was needed later. There are wood blocks epoxied in to attach the sink flanges to the underside of the counter as well. there are deep depressions in the caulk on the side of the sink though. I'm scared of trying to scrape the caulk out because I want them to fix it if possible.

    corners and overhang -
    "Corners and overhang can easily be reprofiled on site. It's putting them back on that's hard."
    do you mean they could reprofile on site but they'd have to take the pieces off to do it? Not sure how to handle this because dh will want a discount if they don't fix it, which means I have to allow them to fix it, which I'm not sure I want. I'm not sure I want to deal with all the measuring and angles issues again that mostly got solved before.

  • amh615
    9 years ago

    Do you by chance live in New Jersey? The only stressful days of my 8-week full kitchen gut and reno were when the countertop fabricators were involved : (

  • feisty68
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    I live on the west coast of Canada Amh615. I can't imagine how much MORE stressful this would have been if I hadn't read all the horror stories about stone installs here. I am not convinced that a well-informed consumer can prevent these kinds of problems even if they know what to look for.

    I could have gone with a higher bid, but I had the impression that the higher bidders were not granite specialists and were upcharging because of that. At $4000 for the job above using an inexpensive granite, I don't feel like I "cheaped out".

  • bbtrix
    9 years ago

    Feisty68, I feel for you and am so sorry this has happened to you also. It sounds almost identical to mine which still does not have a happy ending. I seriously wish I did not have them pull my island top to attempt to fix the reveal problem that is just like yours. I never dreamed I would lose my marble. This has been such a stressful experience.

    I agree with your statement about the well-informed consumer. We really are helpless to prevent their mistakes, though think how much worse yours would be if you didn't have the opportunity to inspect during their break.

  • jellytoast
    9 years ago

    "I bought a box of these [Cinclips] but haven't tried them yet, however, I will say from experience that this is the way to go for you."

    " ... thank you for the Cinclips recommendation. I will see if I can get them locally."

    Very interested in hearing how these work out.

  • PRO
    Joseph Corlett, LLC
    9 years ago

    feisty68:

    Please take a close up picture of where the sink meets the stone. I've got to see this.

    You can get cinclips at Granquartz. Google 'em. About $35.00.

    Reprofiling your edges is relatively easy on site. What I meant was adding pieces back on that shouldn't have been removed is difficult. Sorry for the confusion.

  • feisty68
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    For Trebuchet's "DON'T" file (don't worry, we WILL fix this situation)-

    This post was edited by feisty68 on Fri, May 23, 14 at 13:15

  • feisty68
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    And this:

    (sorry I have a bad camera)

  • feisty68
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    Bbtrix, your story does have a sad ending :( .

    "I seriously wish I did not have them pull my island top to attempt to fix the reveal problem that is just like yours."

    Thank you for sharing this regret. I do have choices to make here. I hope the fabricator will offer a discount for the deficiencies because I don't want them to make any of the problems worse. Personally I would lean towards letting it go, but dh feel strongly about not letting contractors get away with shoddy work (he inspects contractor work in his job).

    So regarding the sink reveal - can they fix it in place or do they have to remove the sink like Bbtrix' fabricator did?

  • feisty68
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    We got them to caulk the sink again and re-seal (3rd coat). Then we made the final payment. It is what it is and I don't want to create more problems by having them fix things. I wouldn't recommend this company to others, but I have no clue how to advise my neighbour who wants a marble island top.

    The epoxy is still sticky in the area where they used wood blocks to support the seam underneath and support the sink underneath. We are not going to rely on that epoxy, but does that mean it will never dry?

    I'm not sure if we have room for the Cinclips because the sink sides are pretty tighly wedged against the cabinet sides, and the flanges are mostly sitting on top of the cabinet edges. Yes, the sink is too large for the cabinet. The sink setter may work if dh hacks it. Fit is very tight and the fabricator's "mounting method" is now in the way.

    I have a feeling we'll need to seal the counters again after this, but it will be DIY. The counters were still very thirsty after the 2nd coat.

  • Errant_gw
    9 years ago

    What were they using to seal? Mine were not in the least bit "thirsty," so I'm guessing our guy used a different sealer since we have the same stone.

  • PRO
    Joseph Corlett, LLC
    9 years ago

    I have never been so sorry someone granted my request for pictures. If I ever write a book on how not to install a sink these pictures will be the front and back cover jackets.

    It's a do-over. Don't wait, no excuses.

  • _sophiewheeler
    9 years ago

    Too bad you paid them. I wouldn't have. The sink alone SCREAMS hack. No real way to fix this if you're willing to accept the unacceptable.

  • bbtrix
    9 years ago

    I spent the afternoon resealng the marble I have left on my perimeter. Mine has the problems yours would have if they did not take that break. I have a 3/8" gap at the wall on some areas and tight on others. The overhang varies by an inch. My DH hates the unsatisfactory results and pointed them out to a few of his contractor buddies this afternoon. All I thought was, no one would notice if you did not point it out. I see it's beauty every day. I had much joy rubbing the sealer in correctly today. This was another thing they did wrong. They wiped it on with a paper towel and wiped it off immediately. I'm glad I had the chance to fix it myself to connect with the stone I love. I know Trebuchet and the other designers think I'm crazy to love marble but I do. I've already sanded it to see what my capability is to fix it. I can, and that is empowering. I watched the depth of the stone glimmer in the sunshine as I put several layers of sealer on and enjoyed becoming familiar with it. I'm so glad I still have these pieces and do not care that they are not perfect.

    As an aside, when I started looking, River White was what I wanted. I knew I loved marble but thought it was impractical and unattainable in my area. Once I saw it there was no going back.

    I'm sure you've made the right decision for you. I had too many long days of anguish to think about which direction to take and none of that helped the surprising outcome.

  • feisty68
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    Sorry I neglected this thread - I don't seem to be getting notifications consistently.

    Errant, I looked at the sealant - it was a large contractor size granite sealant that didn't have obvious branding. They did comment that it was a newer one with special "enviro" formulation - i.e. it may be less effective than previous ones with stronger solvents. After three coats the granite still gets water marks when water sits for 30 min so I will get some granite sealer from Home Depot today and do another coat.

    Trebuchet and Hollysprings - I agree the sink install was a hack job. Problem is, we had to either pay them or let them fix it. My husband probably could have played hardball with them, but he is too stressed out with his day job and when I spoke with the "big boss" he had an answer for everything and I couldn't get him to bend on anything. For example, he insisted that he did 1/4" radius corners like we agreed - which he did not. I never know how to handle it when I am being told that black is white. We decided we would prefer to fix the sink situation ourselves rather than let them come up with another wonderful "solution". I really wasn't confident that they would not make things worse. My husband will get that sink rock solid, I am not worried about that.

    Bbtrix, glad you're feeling better about things :) . If I knew I was staying in my home for the next 10 years, and if my husband wasn't a fuss-budget, I would have considered marble too. I was recently in Cuba and admired the century-old marble thresholds at the entrances of fancy old buildings. They were worn in, smooth, and delicious - elegantly showing their age.

    This post was edited by feisty68 on Tue, May 27, 14 at 13:31

  • feisty68
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    Follow-up about the weird smudges:

    I found these River White photos that have very similar looking, presumably natural, marks:

    Colour and appearance are *very* similar to what I have on my counters (see photo in earlier post). I'm not sure they would have been visible in the stoneyard that had really crummy lighting - the smudges are almost invisible under certain lights.

  • feisty68
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    Sigh. My first spot already. Didn't notice a bacon grease spot yesterday morning, noticed a stain last night. Applied a poultice of non-acetone nail polish remover mixed with baking soda this morning, covered in plastic. The spot didn't stand out that much, but obviously not be the look that I'm going for.

    Sealed the rest of the counter with "Stone Specific Polished Granite Sealer". It didn't look like it was penetrating at all so I'm not sure if will help with the sealing.

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