Linelle,
I think it's the new formulation for the DW detergent, when they removed the phosphates, not the DW. My old DW started etching my glasses after I started using the newly formulated DW detergent. I want to replace the glasses, but first I need to buy one new glass to experiment with running through the DW repeatedly to see if it etches. No sense in replacing my glasses only to have the new ones etch, too.

During prep, everything gets scraped, then dropped in the sink. Don't like anything dirty hanging around on the counters. I have to wash hands quickly 3-4 times and things get wet from that. Sometimes load the DW before dinner or not depending on how much is in the sink. After dinner, we drop all plates in the sink...have to put them down somewhere as my hands are full.
Scrape into garbage usually with my hand as they are dirty anyway and need to be washed. I need to get water up to hot temp anyway for a hand wash item, (always one or two) and something may need a soaking. I use that cold water running time to rinse what i feel needs it. Load the DW. Sink is now free for hand washing and delicates. Drying cloth on counter, (love those things) air dries my knives and wooden spoons, a serving dish and what-not. Counter wiped, cutting board gets a BKF and vinegar, sink gets a quick cleaning and done. Run DW, empty in the morning with my coffee.
If you live or have ever lived in an area prone to drought, you tend to appreciate every drop of water.
I have the single tall dishdrawer. Use 7th Gen powder and vinegar in the rinse thing. Noticed at yard sales some horribly etched glass just like mine, (the french bistro ones) but i've never had that problem. Loaded properly and run near every day, i do not have stink and dishes are clean.
So, i'm a mini-rinser by method i suppose.

My dishwasher is a Maytag from 1999. I barely pre-rinse if you can call it that. If there are dishes in the sink when I use the water that's when they get rinsed. Or if the water is running for the disposal I may just swipe the plate or bowl under the faucet if I'm too lazy to scrape. I usually only run my dishwasher every 2-3 days and have never had a smell, bug, or rodent problem.

I've just learned more about dishwashers in this thread that I have in my last 25 years on earth.... So are you not even suppose to pre-rinse post and pans after cooking? ::Scratches head::

I'm a dishwasher janie-come-lately, having only gotten one into my life and kitchen when we remodeled 3 years ago. After 20+ years of handwashing I was and am in full Scarlett O'Hara mindset: as g*d is my witness, I'll never wash dishes again.

And I do not. I scrape off the food debris, load up, turn on and hope for the best. For the vast majority of loads, my Bosch does a very good job. Occasionally there will be a bit of food that is left on a utensil, but I think that is usually due to being overloaded in the rack.

Unfortunately my husband is both extremely stubborn and determined that whatever worked in the 'good old days' must be better. He literally sneaks around to hand wash things before I can load the dishwasher. So irritating, especially because the man is in all other ways fanatic about conserving resources. And yet he insists that standing in front of the sink with the hot water running(!) while he washes and rinses is a good idea.

Oh wait, wasn't this the marital kitchen complaint thread? No, oh well never mind...carry on with your scraping, loading and squirting...

I appreciate everyone's input, advice, and psych evaluations. :) I don't so much object to changing my methods, but always look for a logical explanation. If it makes sense, I'll do it.

Another thing. The need to run the water at the sink until it's hot *before* you run your DW. And, if it's not a certain temp, turn up your water heater. Both of those things seem to go counter to the water/energy conservation rallying cries I've heard in this thread (and I'm not trying to disparage them). My kitchen is the furthest point from my water heater. What about all that water wasted waiting for it to get hot enough? Hell, I could be pre-rinsing with all that. Why don't all new DWs take whatever water is delivered and heat it to the correct temp?

The etching still puzzles me. If it's the detergent, why don't we use a different one? The appliance guy told me to use those Finish tabs (two sides with a red center). Why not the Cascade tabs I currently use in my old DW that doesn't etch? Or, here's a thought: maybe it *is* etching and I just don't notice?

Some DWs do heat the water. You need to check out your model. I have heard not to use Cascade pacs as they sometimes do not dissolve all the way and cause clogging. Bosch recommends finish so that is what I use. Remember that dishing detergent and laundry detergent had to change their formulas because of environmental concerns.

uh oh, strike 2....I love LONG...HOT showers. No time to do it often but when I get a chance, *LOVE* to start my day that way! :/

I do drink daily out of a reusable water bottle though, that counts for something right?!

we removed the dishwasher and the garbage disposal and the prep sink in our remodel. That is probably as weird to you as this thread is to me...

This is the third time I've removed a dishwasher in our kitchen remodels (over the course of thirty some years).

We did hook up the dishwasher in the basement in case the inconvenience of being without a sink motivated us to use the dishwasher. It's been two weeks without a sink and so far we haven't used the dishwasher.

Here is a link that might be useful: our remodel

The hot water recirculating pump is part of the standard building code in many parts of the country. Hot water instantly.

Here is a link that might be useful: re-circ pump

The kind of DW detergent you use makes all the difference! I used to use the thrifty Cascade in the box, old style. Then, my dishes weren't clean, even the DW wasn't clean! So started using Finish for cleaning the DW, thinking if my DW is clean, my dishes will be, too. No way! So then, added Lemon Shine with the Box Cascade. Still not clean, unless I pre-rinsed. Finally tried those tablets of Cascade Platinum. OMG! Now my dishes and my DW sparkle! And I thought my top of the line KA was the problem!

Linelle--Regarding the need to run the tap until the water is hot before starting the DW, I use that "heating up" time to wash my knives, wood board, and any other small item that may need hand washing. (I guess I should mention that I'm doing this individually under the running water, not in a tub of standing water.) I even, horror of horrors, use that time to scrub a dirty pot or pan that I know my DW cannot clean. I'm getting much better about not pre-washing, but my cr@ppy Kenmore cannot clean a baked on casserole dish or a blackened fry pan. By the time I'm done with all that, the water is hot and ready to go. I can't wait to replace my Kenmore with something that cleans better and doesn't sound like a freight train in the kitchen. Hopefully, I can swing a floor model Miele when the time comes, and those have their own on-board water heater so I won't need to warm up the water.

And to your question about why all DWs don't have their own water heater, I read the other day that the on-board water heater is a European thing. Apparently it's an energy saving device, as you may have figured out. You use less energy to only heat exactly the amount of water the DW needs to clean the dishes. Europeans are far more energy conscious than we Americans, you know.

Breezy & La_jan, thanks for the advice on detergents and what to do with the heating-up water. I'm not sure my Bosch has the water heater, a point I failed to think of during my purchase deliberations. It's always something.

I'm sure I'll figure it out. Running the DW maybe every 4 or 5 days, the cost of new detergent won't be as much a $$$ to me as those who run theirs multiple times a day. I did take a Trader Joe's bag of a variety of my dishes and baking pans to the appliance store. I rattled all the way. I was surprised that things actually fit, despite the seemingly crowded layout. It will be another learning experience after the wide open spaces of my old Kenmore.

I have a Miele DW hooked up to cold water. The DW heats the water to the proper temp and there is no heated drying. I personally would not buy a machine that required me to stand there and wait for hot water. Why? The initial rise is cold water anyway.

The dishwasher isn't the issue. It's the detergent that needs to work correctly. You will quickly find out if it isn't and etching is an issue with the glassware. If so, it's the result of too much detergent and soft water. Sometimes DH will rinse things out of habit. With the right detergent and rinse aid it's not an issue.

But why wash twice? Call me dumb or lazy but I'm not doing anything by hand that isn't necessary either. All my pots and pans go in and all my dishes, even the antique ones. Why I bought the dang thing.

But the issue -- discussed extensively over on appliances -- is detergent results. All seem to agree that scraping is the way to go so enzymes in the detergents can do their job, whatever that is. But I wouldn't get stuck on that.

Detergents seem to give different results in different parts of the country. So it becomes a mater of finding which detergent works best in your machine with your water. Then how much to use.

I can't be around the powders or the gels. So I use the tabs. Some of us cut the DW tabs in half for small loads, which makes sense. I have a full size DW and run it every night. I can't bear to have dirty stuff around but everyone is different.

So for small loads I use a half tab and if there are no pots and pans in there I might use the china cycle, which is shorter and with warmer water -- energy saving. But my machine doesn't use significant energy since it's only working with 7 gallons of water and it has a cold water fill.

Most on appliances agree that Finish Quantum does a great job. Some of us like Method tabs and the grapefruit-rose are easily cut and smell better than any other detergent. Some do fine with various Eco powders and budget brands. Others don't.

I found I've had to adjust to every new appliance for various reasons. Discussions like these can be useful or useless depending on what you buy and how you use it.

This post was edited by rococogurl on Sat, May 25, 13 at 12:38

So if you only run your dishwasher every four or five days, how often do you have to take dirty things out because you really want to use something waiting in the dishwasher? measuring cup, pot lid, special pan...

And if you leave them dirty, no rinsing, don't they begin to smell (fish, meat, rotting vegies)?

And don't you need extras of many things so some can be dirty in the dishwasher?

If you have a big enough family to run it every day, I can sort of see it. But if you have to wait four days for a load, it seems crazy.

I may be wrong but I thought all DWs heated the water to the proper temperature. The manual for my KA recommends running the water first but I never bother and everything works fine. I really think it's just a tradeoff between having the DW take longer (and more electricity) to heat the water, or having your water heater do it and use more water in the process.

I also remember reading recently that with enzyme detergents it's better not to run the water first because the water will be too hot initially and disrupt the enzymes.

Donaleen, some things that I will use more often than I run the DW just get immediately washed by hand and put away. Measuring cups for example -- the stuff you measure, like sugar or flour, is not bacteria laden and "sanitizing" is not a concern (people are overly concerned with that IMO anyway, clean is adequate!). As we talked about in another thread, some things I am going to hand wash, like my good knives or my hard anodized pots, anyway, it only takes a few minutes.

But weissman, here's what doesn't make sense to me. If the first rinse is cold and the DW has a cold hookup then it makes no sense to run the water to get it hot. It doesn't need to be hot right away. Then the DW heats it.

If the hook up is hot (most) then simply doing the initial cold rinse will have the machine pull enough cold water to allow the hot to come up and there will be enough hot water for the wash.

I think these manuals get "edited" and then no one rereads them or the people who write & edit them don't talk to the people who design the machines.

F.ex. My china/crystal cycle washes with 115 degree water. That requires a cold fill but the current manual says cold or hot is ok.
Except you can't have only a hot fill and have that temperature be exact -- depends on the water heater setting. And there's no cold water inlet (unlike the washer machine which has both and can mix the water to bring it to a certain temp). Yet the manual says hot or cold are ok.

If someone is prerinsing dishes and the detergent doesn't have enough food to work on, then there could be etching issues. But if the detergent is cut back and the water isn't very soft there might not be.

I am glad to have a good old American made dishwasher that just cleans the dishes whether I pre-rinse (mostly) or not (sometimes), that I don't have to cut my dw tabs for, that has heated dry so I don't have drippy stuff when unloading, and that doesn't etch my glassware.

It's just a good old workhorse ... probably an environmental hog, but I love it all the same. :-)

taggie - what brand/model is it? It sounds like it does a good job - do tell!

Donaleen, I agree with Raee. I handwash some stuff, e.g., my small frying pan, which I might use everyday or more often. I only have one and I know I'm likely to need it again before I run the DW. It's really not a hardship. If I know the DW's full and needs to be run, I might throw it in. I run the DW either when it's full or I'm out of something, e.g., bowls. Measuring cups, usually a quick rinse or wipe and back in the drawer they go. I'm not overly concerned with sanitizing some things.

Oh, and here is something unexpected that I noticed about DW detergent & cleaning...

All of a sudden my dishes were not getting clean--like, the tannins from my tea still on the mug interior for example. I thought at first that the age of the DW had caught up with it (it is over 15 years old I believe, can't really remember when I put it in!). I started putting just a drop of liquid detergent in with the Cascade, which helped. But then I finally figured it out -- the box of Cascade had gotten wet from a leak under the sink. I never imagined that that could harm its effectiveness, and the box was nearly full and seemed fine after drying out. But, once I got a new box, the DW was getting everything sparkling again.

I don't prewash. I postwash--if something doesn't get clean, I'll wash it myself (or put it back in for another go). You waste a lot less water that way.

I also dislike water and sludge from rinsed dishes dripping all over.

I REALLY dislike it when people rinse dishes and stack them on the counter to be loaded. EW.

My spouse insists on rinsing if there are particles or goo on dishes even though the goo just goes down a drain either way. This is annoying. Spouse drives an electric car charged by solar power but won't conserve water.

I left the water on all night in my (low-water usage) butterfly garden though and I don't even remember when I turned it ON yesterday...guess we all have issues.

This enzyme or whatever issue though--all I've ever heard is apocryphal and much is bordering on absurd. I find it hard to believe that enzymes eat dishes when they can't get ketchup. Organics and glassware are NOT subject to the same types of chemical reactions, so that just seems like hooey.

I've seen someone over in Appliances run this test before so I thought I'd give it a whirl. Here's the dirty dishes resulting from a batch of cream cheese swirl brownies I made this afternoon. I usually scrub the brownie batter out before putting the bowl in the DW as my DW can't get this much gunk off of bowls or pans. For this experiment, I'm putting all of this straight in as-is. I'll run the DW later tonight and take a picture tomorrow to show the results.

Breezy, I just gotta ask about the large bowl that looks like it contained the brownie batter. Did you wipe it down or was it licked clean? It just seems very devoid of goo except in the corners.

I hope it was licked clean. I mean, what's the point of making brownies if someone doesn't get that treat?

Dishwasher Fictions

Hand-washing dishes rather than running the dishwasher saves water and electricity

This is one of our all time favorite misconceptions. Many homeowners believe they're helping the environment and reducing their water bill by washing dishes the old-fashioned way rather than using a dishwasher. Nothing could be further from the truth.

Modern dishwashers use, on average, 1-1.5 kilowatt hours of energy and 3.7 gallons of water (an amount equal to one full kitchen sink). Take into consideration how many full sinks you use to wash a pile of dishes and the amount of water you use for rinsing the dishes and it's easy to see how wrong this myth is. Washing by hand consumes much more water than using your dishwasher, especially when you consider that washing dishes by hand is a daily affair whereas you may only run your dishwasher only every 2 or 3 days. Your dishwasher is one of your most efficient appliances. In most localities (excluding the cost of detergent) it costs between 12â and 20â to wash a load of dishes.

So if you are going "Green" and thinking about leaving the dishwasher out of your new kitchen to help the environment, forget it. Buy the most efficient dishwasher you can afford. Stop washing by hand, just load dirty dishes as they are used into the dishwasher until it is full, then push the magic button. .

Dishes should be "pre-rinsed" before being washed in a dishwasher

Many thousands of people seem devoted to removing every spec of food from their dinnerware before putting it in the dishwasher.

You can eliminate this "pre-rinse" for any dishwasher newer than 20 years old because it does not help your dishwasher get your dishes any cleaner. Moreover, re-rinsing may actually harm your dishes because pre-rinsing causes the concentration of alkaline in dishwasher detergent to rise to high levels. Dishwasher detergents are made to clean stuck-on grease and grime. With no grease and grime to attack, the alkaline in the detergent attacks your dishes instead, making them appear cloudy, scratched and in some cases, actually etching the surface.

Scrape away large bits of food, but don't pre-rinse. By not pre-rinsing, you will save about 14,000 gallons of water each year. That 14,000 gallon figure is NOT a typo.

For more information on saving water, follow the link below

Here is a link that might be useful: Saving Household Water

Maybe they should develop a detergent for the pre-rinsers around the world. Seems to be a good number of us on GW.

There is another side to all those harsh chemicals... chemical residue left on dishes and washed down our drains....

Here is a link that might be useful: dishwasher chemicals

LOL, Linelle! No, the bowl was not licked. I'm just a really good scraper. It makes me want to scream at the cooking shows on TV when they leave 1/4 cup of the bowl contents in the bowl without scraping! I sometimes lick the brownie whisk, but, as you can see in the above photo, I didn't this time. I just put it straight in the DW. I have a nasty cold and can't taste much. I was, however, hoping that a baked brownie would taste good. It did. :)

Here's how those gross, un-pre-rinsed and un-pre-washed bowls and utensils looked when they emerged from the DW.

Wow! I'm impressed. And, thanks to this thread, I have finally convinced DH after three years of trying that he doesn't need to pre-wash the dishes! Hooray!

You know me. I'm never one to talk about food and not show a picture. Cream cheese swirl brownie heaven.

Breezy: that brownie is making me hungry! Great before and after pic. Maybe I'll do a test load without pre rinsing...whenever I get my kitchen back and can actually use a DW :)

My new DW arrives tomorrow, so the old Kenmore is about to be run for the last time. RIP. I'm not rinsing anything out of respect for its swan song...except for the plate with all the egg yolk. Time to turn over a new leaf.

So, it sounds like it's all about the detergent. I do think it's great that the new ones use so little water. I'm guessing that less water means the detergent has to supply more muscle, and less food to attack means it turns its attention to the plates and glasses themselves.

Breezy, I when my mom would get out the rubber spatula to scrape batter into a pan, I'd scream, "No, don't scrape it all out!!!" Licking the bowl was the whole point of baking, kinda still is.

Breezy - those brownies look amazing. Did the dishes come out clean?

I don't rinse - just put in the DW - 99% come out perfect and the 1% is easy to fix and a lot less messy.

I have to share one of my favorite You Tube videos - She gave GP an ipad and wants to know if he is using it. If the link doesn't work - just type in ipad chopping board

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R6WuHzE-1fk

After you watch it, you know the answers - why is he rinsing it before putting it in the DW. Enjoy :-) I use this in my classes when I need a fun break.

1.5 years ago we heard about this "DWs actually need food to clean better" advice from sales person when we purchased our current DW. We thought it was weird, but decided to conduct a few experiments before believing it.

We tried different scenarios, with different water temperature, wash setting, time duration, with or without prewashing dishes; the results were all the same, dishes and silverware came out of DW are of the same cleaning condition. Nothing got etched even if we prewash the dishes very well before loading them.

The only difference is if we did not have full load, and waited until next day, the dirty dishes came out of DW with dried food clued on, the leftover chocolate ice-cream on the ice cream bowl became a brown coating. What is going on, were there plenty food for detergent to hold on???. We would have to remove food particles and hand rewash them and put in the DW, then again, nothing get etched.

When using the new DW, the only difference that may be caused by the "new detergent" was there were some patches marks on the dishes, they looked like etches, but they were not. Occasionally adding lemi-shine to the DW, get rid of this problem all together.

Since then we both think "DWs actually need food to clean better" is an urban legend. It has the same credibility as "adding 1/2 cup of cooking vinegar to the full wash load and run through a cycle" will damage wash machines.

This thread has given me the courage to take the step - load the dishwasher without rinsing first. That was hard to do!!! So for the past 3 days it had dishes loaded with dried egg, bowls with dried chocolate (I did wipe out chunks), a bowl with dried tuna, and various other yucky items that didn't touch water first.

Everything came out sparkling clean. I'm now a believer. My dishwasher is a lower-end Bosch, only about 6 weeks old. I used my regular dishwasher detergent (powder Cascade) and JetDry rinse.

All good!

Bonnie

Yay Bonnie! What model Bosch do you have? Mine's more at the budget end.

Linelle--I agree about licking the bowl and the beaters and the spatula and the spoon and the.....

A2--look again! The picture directly above the brownie pic IS the clean dishes. They all came out perfectly clean! Sorry about the confusion. I staged the clean dishes just like in the dirty photo.

Azmom--the etching doesn't occur over one wash. It's a longer-term symptom. Besides, as we've learned, not pre-washing is better for the environment in terms of less water and energy usage.

Bons--Congrats!

Like Bonnie, I have a lower end Bosch and don't pre-rinse, use Cascade powder, and rinse aid, and the Bosh rocks my world. My old KA left gritty residue everywhere. Linelle, I think you'll love the Bosch.

I am really going to try my best to use my new dw with no pre washing and very little pre rinsing. With that being said what is the best dw detergent?

I've just unloaded most of my DW and need to create a new mess to help fill up the next load. I will be cutting more tabs in half for that because it's easier to grab one of those than pour in too much powder or gel in the dark. Those of you who also forget to turn on the DW due to age-related ADD may know what I'm talking about.

For a while I had a supply of Miele tabs with biodegradable, dissolving wrappers which is really putting a fine point on the concept of "less work." There is at least one other person on this forum who I could name -- but won't -- who continues to use those. When my supply ran out I switched to tabs that had to be removed from the wrappers. Once I forgot and the tab was still in the cup after the load was done. But the dishes were clean so who knows what residual soap from previous loads lurks in the nether regions.

Linelle, I hope you enjoy your new DW.

And breezy, would you kindly post the recipe for those brownies?

Sure Rococo. The recipe came from Martha Stewart. I saw the recipe when it aired on TV in July 2002 and have been making them ever since. I rarely make any other kind now. It's fun to experiment with the types of chips used in the cream cheese batter. Semi-sweet are still my favorite.

Here is a link that might be useful: Swirl brownies

Breezy - double thanks - if you have a chance - watch the you tube - it is so funny and so appropriate for this thread. If looks could kill, GP wouldn't be around much longer.
I will have to try the swirl brownies.

Azmom - either you have the wrong DW or wrong detergent. I toss some pretty dirty items into DW and wow - very few things don't come clean and much easier to deal with those few than the many plus no wasted water..

Thanks ever so much breezy.

Hilarious video a2.

holly-kay, I found out about Finish "quantum" (not regular Finish) and Method tabs on the appliance forum. I use Quantum for my heavy loads with lots of pots. I also like Method's grapefruit-rose fragrance and those are easy to cut.

Etching can occur after 1 wash and it can be seen immediately. I lost an entire set of W-S glasses to etching and I have a few other pieces that are partially etched. People with whole-house water softeners are especially prone to that -- how I found out about all this. Some people never have an issue as it really depends on the water.

This post was edited by rococogurl on Tue, May 28, 13 at 7:57

A2: that video is hilarious! Thanks for the laugh :)

Holly-Kay: I heard that Finish tabs are good but I haven't used them yet. Now I'll have to wait until the new DW is installed before I can try it out.

Like mabel..I have had my Bosch low end of the price range for 7 yrs. I use Cascade powder...I pour in whatever... and Rinse aid. I rinse my dishes cursorily under the faucet. My glasses are 7 yrs old also. They look new. Whatever you guys are paying for in "high end" dishwashers is bogus....mine is and has been perfect and no fuss or measuring or etching. sigh...

a2, breezy,

We use Cascade powder and occasionally add Lemi-Shine. If we wash a load in the same day, everything is sparkling clean.

I have been blaming our extremely dry climate that dries everything in a hurry and makes overnight dirty dishes hard to clean.

We should also take blame for rinsing dishes, it is a horrible thought of having dirty dishes left in DW for a couple of days.

You may be right. Sounds like we need to make behavior adjustment.

We are not sure which DW to order for the upcoming kitchen remodeling, DH is thinking about taking advantage of Thermador promotion after hearing DD constantly complains about her Bosh.

My low3end Bosch model is SHX33RF5UC. I got it at Lowes.

I'm still getting used to loading it - it's quite a bit different from my old KA. But nice and quiet, and No More Pre-Rinsing! :-)

Bonnie

My low-end Bosch model is SHX33RF5UC. I got it at Lowes.

I'm still getting used to loading it - it's quite a bit different from my old KA. But nice and quiet, and No More Pre-Rinsing! :-)

Bonnie

breezy-those brownies look delish! I also am a spatula licker, bowl scraper, spoons, whatever has some leftovers in it (raw egg warnings and all)...with 2 boys lined up right behind me wanting some too!

I think my over-rinsing tendencies come from the reinforcement my DW gives every time I pull a dirty dish out of a completed wash load that in my opinion should have been clean....I hope with a new DW maybe I can experience this no rinse bliss. I am very intrigued by the quiet and good wash reviews of the bosch.

2 things that normally end up cemented on and are thoroughly scrubbed before entering the DW:
oatmeal
grated parmesan cheese