A couple of comments on above....

• You say you don't cook much so the overlap of zones is not a problem...but then you say you you hope to do more cooking with the new kitchen. If that's the case OR if one of your children likes to cook, you will have designed a kitchen that won't work that well. I suggest designing a kitchen that's functional for someone who cooks and has a family... If you end up not cooking and your children follow in your footsteps and don't cook, then your kitchen will work for you. If you cook more or your children like to cook, then the kitchen will work for you. It's a win-win situation.

Prep sink...If you're doing all of this, adding a prep sink won't be that much more $ wise. But, that prep sink will make a difference in how your kitchen & island work. No, it's not absolutely necessary (that's why I used broken lines to represent it in the layout below), but it would help! Your island is big enough that you could have a prep sink and still have a large expanse of workspace for projects & homework (5+ feet x 40.5" or so).
Dining room/Toy room...we did the same thing while our children were young and it worked great!
Refrigerator...most refrigerator doors, whether they're counter- or standard-depth, need more than 90 degrees to open fully...or at least enough that you can easily remove the bins/drawers for cleaning. Therefore, the doors must extend past the surrounding cabinets/counters/walls and have enough room for the doors to angle out w/o hitting anything on the side...that generally means around 12" b/w the refrigerator & wall.

Built-ins, OTOH, generally do not need to extend past due to the way their hinges work. But, built-in refrigerators cost quite a bit more than counter-depth and a lot more than standard-depth, not even counting the cabinet panels that most people put on built-ins. (I'm assuming cost is a factor b/c you're concerned about the cost of a prep sink.)
Is that a TV "below" the door on

the "east" wall? If so, no one at the island will see it. You (or whoever is prepping a meal) will if you can prep at the island, though. (Another plus for the prep sink so the island can be used for prepping easily with a water source!)

Here's a slight rearrangement of the above...but it's without a desk. (Most of this was done last night b/f my DS's Awards Banquet & b/f the last few posts were there).

This is the same as above but with the primary zones marked. The dotted/broken blue line is where your Prep Zone would be if you did not have a prep sink...it's much smaller and will overlap somewhat with the Cleanup Zone. (Cooking & Prep Zone overlaps are usually not an issue as long as you have sufficient emergency landing space on the side of the range w/o the Prep Zone...and you do...15" + 18".) Why will the Prep Zone location change depending on the prep...

A couple of comments on above....

• You say you don't cook much so the overlap of zones is not a problem...but then you say you you hope to do more cooking with the new kitchen. If that's the case OR if one of your children likes to cook, you will have designed a kitchen that won't work that well. I suggest designing a kitchen that's functional for someone who cooks and has a family... If you end up not cooking and your children follow in your footsteps and don't cook, then your kitchen will work for you. If you cook more or your children like to cook, then the kitchen will work for you. It's a win-win situation.

Prep sink...If you're doing all of this, adding a prep sink won't be that much more $ wise. But, that prep sink will make a difference in how your kitchen & island work. No, it's not absolutely necessary (that's why I used broken lines to represent it in the layout below), but it would help! Your island is big enough that you could have a prep sink and still have a large expanse of workspace for projects & homework (5+ feet x 40.5" or so).
Dining room/Toy room...we did the same thing while our children were young and it worked great!
Refrigerator...most refrigerator doors, whether they're counter- or standard-depth, need more than 90 degrees to open fully...or at least enough that you can easily remove the bins/drawers for cleaning. Therefore, the doors must extend past the surrounding cabinets/counters/walls and have enough room for the doors to angle out w/o hitting anything on the side...that generally means around 12" b/w the refrigerator & wall.

Built-ins, OTOH, generally do not need to extend past due to the way their hinges work. But, built-in refrigerators cost quite a bit more than counter-depth and a lot more than standard-depth, not even counting the cabinet panels that most people put on built-ins. (I'm assuming cost is a factor b/c you're concerned about the cost of a prep sink.)
Is that a TV "below" the door on

the "east" wall? If so, no one at the island will see it. You (or whoever is prepping a meal) will if you can prep at the island, though. (Another plus for the prep sink so the island can be used for prepping easily with a water source!)

Here's a slight rearrangement of the above...but it's without a desk. (Most of this was done last night b/f my DS's Awards Banquet & b/f the last few posts were there).

This is the same as above but with the primary zones marked. The dotted/broken blue line is where your Prep Zone would be if you did not have a prep sink...it's much smaller and will overlap somewhat with the Cleanup Zone. (Cooking & Prep Zone overlaps are usually not an issue as long as you have sufficient emergency landing space on the side of the range w/o the Prep Zone...and you do...15" + 18".) Why will the Prep Zone location change depending on the prep...

A couple of comments on above....

• You say you don't cook much so the overlap of zones is not a problem...but then you say you you hope to do more cooking with the new kitchen. If that's the case OR if one of your children likes to cook, you will have designed a kitchen that won't work that well. I suggest designing a kitchen that's functional for someone who cooks and has a family... If you end up not cooking and your children follow in your footsteps and don't cook, then your kitchen will work for you. If you cook more or your children like to cook, then the kitchen will work for you. It's a win-win situation.

Prep sink...If you're doing all of this, adding a prep sink won't be that much more $ wise. But, that prep sink will make a difference in how your kitchen & island work. No, it's not absolutely necessary (that's why I used broken lines to represent it in the layout below), but it would help! Your island is big enough that you could have a prep sink and still have a large expanse of workspace for projects & homework (5+ feet x 40.5" or so).
Dining room/Toy room...we did the same thing while our children were young and it worked great!
Refrigerator...most refrigerator doors, whether they're counter- or standard-depth, need more than 90 degrees to open fully...or at least enough that you can easily remove the bins/drawers for cleaning. Therefore, the doors must extend past the surrounding cabinets/counters/walls and have enough room for the doors to angle out w/o hitting anything on the side...that generally means around 12" b/w the refrigerator & wall.

Built-ins, OTOH, generally do not need to extend past due to the way their hinges work. But, built-in refrigerators cost quite a bit more than counter-depth and a lot more than standard-depth, not even counting the cabinet panels that most people put on built-ins. (I'm assuming cost is a factor b/c you're concerned about the cost of a prep sink.)
Is that a TV "below" the door on

the "east" wall? If so, no one at the island will see it. You (or whoever is prepping a meal) will if you can prep at the island, though. (Another plus for the prep sink so the island can be used for prepping easily with a water source!)

Here's a slight rearrangement of the above...but it's without a desk. (Most of this was done last night b/f my DS's Awards Banquet & b/f the last few posts were there).

This is the same as above but with the primary zones marked. The dotted/broken blue line is where your Prep Zone would be if you did not have a prep sink...it's much smaller and will overlap somewhat with the Cleanup Zone. (Cooking & Prep Zone overlaps are usually not an issue as long as you have sufficient emergency landing space on the side of the range w/o the Prep Zone...and you do...15" + 18".) Why will the Prep Zone location change depending on the prep...

A couple of comments on above....

• You say you don't cook much so the overlap of zones is not a problem...but then you say you you hope to do more cooking with the new kitchen. If that's the case OR if one of your children likes to cook, you will have designed a kitchen that won't work that well. I suggest designing a kitchen that's functional for someone who cooks and has a family... If you end up not cooking and your children follow in your footsteps and don't cook, then your kitchen will work for you. If you cook more or your children like to cook, then the kitchen will work for you. It's a win-win situation.

Prep sink...If you're doing all of this, adding a prep sink won't be that much more $ wise. But, that prep sink will make a difference in how your kitchen & island work. No, it's not absolutely necessary (that's why I used broken lines to represent it in the layout below), but it would help! Your island is big enough that you could have a prep sink and still have a large expanse of workspace for projects & homework (5+ feet x 40.5" or so).
Dining room/Toy room...we did the same thing while our children were young and it worked great!
Refrigerator...most refrigerator doors, whether they're counter- or standard-depth, need more than 90 degrees to open fully...or at least enough that you can easily remove the bins/drawers for cleaning. Therefore, the doors must extend past the surrounding cabinets/counters/walls and have enough room for the doors to angle out w/o hitting anything on the side...that generally means around 12" b/w the refrigerator & wall.

Built-ins, OTOH, generally do not need to extend past due to the way their hinges work. But, built-in refrigerators cost quite a bit more than counter-depth and a lot more than standard-depth, not even counting the cabinet panels that most people put on built-ins. (I'm assuming cost is a factor b/c you're concerned about the cost of a prep sink.)
Is that a TV "below" the door on

the "east" wall? If so, no one at the island will see it. You (or whoever is prepping a meal) will if you can prep at the island, though. (Another plus for the prep sink so the island can be used for prepping easily with a water source!)

Here's a slight rearrangement of the above...but it's without a desk. (Most of this was done last night b/f my DS's Awards Banquet & b/f the last few posts were there).

This is the same as above but with the primary zones marked. The dotted/broken blue line is where your Prep Zone would be if you did not have a prep sink...it's much smaller and will overlap somewhat with the Cleanup Zone. (Cooking & Prep Zone overlaps are usually not an issue as long as you have sufficient emergency landing space on the side of the range w/o the Prep Zone...and you do...15" + 18".) Why will the Prep Zone location change depending on the prep...

Hi allnew.

You need to upload the image to a photo hosting site like Webshots or Photobucket. (Both of these allow you to set up an account for free.) Each has a fairly straightforward way to upload photos. Once the photos are uploaded, you click on the photo (and in Webshots you then click on Link to it); it shows the code for including an image in a post.

On this forum, use the code that starts with Copy that code and paste it into your message here. Press Preview to make sure it worked (you should see your photo in the preview.) I'm saying 'photo' but the same process is for any graphic file, e.g. a scanned image of your layout, etc.

{{gwi:1487106}}

What I posted above is how you post your own photo. Now let's say that you found an inspiration photo already online and you want to post that. Here's how:

Navigate to the photo and right click on it.
Select Properties.
Look for the Address URL. It should end with a .jpg, .png, .gif, etc. Select all the code in the box (as shown in picture below) and copy it.

Paste that code into your Forum message with the text shown in red below at the front and back of the image URL. (The text doesn't have to be in red; I just highlighted it to make it easy to see.)

The code at front is and at back is "*> BUT WITHOUT THE *. (I can't put the actual code in here because the forum will interpret it as HTML, not text.)

Now use the Preview Message button to make sure it worked.

{{gwi:2107397}}

Thanks! Let's try it again LOL!
The layout looks a little squished though : - ))

Here is a link that might be useful:

Right now you have a lot of zone overlapping which is avoidable, and your fridge won't open fully because it's blocked by the wall. What if you put the sink where the pantry is, the pantry next to the fridge by the wall, the cooktop where the sink was, and a prep sink on the island? Or put the fridge by the pantry, swap sink and range, and put prep sink in island. I think one of these options would serve you better.

A big movement here is drawers instead of pullouts or doors; you may want to consider that. The main reason is it's one motion to open instead of two for pullouts.

Can you post something with measurements?

chicagoans - Not sure if you know, it's actually not very nice to link images directly from another person's site. It takes up their bandwidth which costs them more money each month. It's better to save the image to your own computer, upload it to your photobucket and post it from there. :)

Tracy Erin: thanks for the info on bandwidth when linking images from someone else's site. Didn't know that!

Have you read the "Read Me" thread? It has step-by-step instructions for posting pictures.

As to linking to other people's albums...IF it's to the album of the person who's trying to post a pic, I don't see a problem with it and I consider it appropriate. If it's to someone else completely, that's different...UNLESS...it's to someone who posted their pictures here. I actually consider it more polite to link to the owner of the pic than to copy it to your album and link there...it seems more like "stealing" when you copy.

Here is a link that might be useful: Read Me If You're New To GW Kitchens!

Thanks for the feedback. I don't think I have a soft copy of the plan with the measurements...sorry.
I do have half drawers, half pullouts now. I didn't want to go with all drawers, I like how they function, but didn't like how they look all across one wall.
What do you mean by zones overlapping? By function or appearance?
Thank you!

It will be very helpful if you could also give us more information about you and your family and how you will be using your kitchen & surrounding areas.

The "Read Me" thread as the questions that will help us help you. Scroll down to the "Layout" post.

A few notes...

• If your island will be all one height at counter-height, then the recommended overhang is at least 15" (it looks like 12" in the layout).

• How wide are your aisles? They look wide enough, but without measurements, I don't know for certain.

• Is there anyway to get more separation b/w the range & sink or at least the range & corner?

• I echo the refrigerator concern...you need 9" to 12" b/w the refrigerator & wall to allow the door(s) to open fully.

• Do you need the desk? Most people take them out when they remodel b/c they've discovered they're "clutter magnets".

  Instead, consider a 24" to 36" Message Center that's near the main family entrance...wherever that is since I cannot tell based on the layout. If you have a Mudroom, put it either in or near it.

• Lastly (for now!), consider drawers instead of pullouts...drawers are generally more functional than pullouts.

Here is a link that might be useful: Read Me If You're New To GW Kitchens!

Zones overlapping.. I mean function. This is a really simple and maybe sloppy way of saying this but generally you have 3 zones: Prep (includes fridge sink), cooking (range), and cleanup (sink, DW & dish storage). Most people try to separate the cleanup zone as much as possible so you don't have someone trying to get to the dishwasher etc. while you are cooking or prepping.

Here are your overlapping zones now (sorry for the MS Paint!):

Here's a (very rough) possibility instead:

I meant function. This is a really simple and maybe sloppy way of saying this but generally you have 3 zones: Prep (includes fridge sink), cooking (range), and cleanup (sink, DW & dish storage). Most people try to separate the zones as much as possible so you don't have someone in the way at the dishwasher while you are prepping, or so you can have someone prepping the veggies out of the way of the cook, etc.

Here are your overlapping zones now (sorry for the MS Paint!):

Here's a (very rough) possibility instead:

Hi - thanks for the feedback so far. To answer some of the questions and give more info:

The island is all one height and the overhang will actually be 18 ''. The island is 107 '' X 47''.

There is about 50 '' between the countertops and island.

The sink really needs to stay where it is b/c there is a window (on top of sink) to the backyard....I don't want to put the window and sink on the other wall b/c I won't be able to see outside to the playset (2 small children under 7). I'm not a big fan of a 2nd sink...I just don't think I would use it (I know some people love their prep sink - I just don't see myself using it, and tried to save some $ by not using one).

I hear you on the refrigerator concern, but I don't see anyplace else it would fit in if we keep the sink where it is. And not sure I really understand the problem with it being next to a wall. My current fridge only opens by 90 degrees and it's not an issue.

I do need a desk, not so much to work at, but someplace to keep the kids school papers and paperwork I need for them (doctor files, etc). I'm a really neat and organized person so it would not be a clutter magnet - maybe my DH would try, but I won't let it : - )

I like the drawers but also wanted pull out cabinets too. You can't tell by this design but there are drawers in the island and next to DW.

The top left part of the layout goes to a patio, the top right will go to a family. The bottom right door in between the hutch and bathroom will go to a toy room.

To answer some of the other questions under "read me if you are new"....
4 people in the family - 2 adults, 2 small children.
We only occasionally entertain, and it's always informal and usually outside.
We will have a big table in this new kitchen (space was a kitchen and family room but will now be one big kitchen)...so turning dining room into a toy room.
I'm a so-so cook, we do alot of ordering out (hoping to do more home cooking with my new kitchen!!)
36 gas range, french door refrigerator, DW, microwave. Beverage center is in hutch (next to table).

Would it work to switch the fridge and the pantry? Also, if you could move the sink and the window down the counter run towards the new placement of the fridge, you would have a nice expanse of counter for prep work.

Thanks everyone.
I asked my KD about the refrigerator opening and he said there is 5 inches, does not show correctly in the plan I attached.

The sink / window really needs to stay where it is, b/c that is the best view to be able to watch the kids in the backyard as well as if they run to the side of the house....so I'm not flexible with that part. My kids are young and just don't trust that they will stay in the backyard always if I'm not watching them!!

I say I want to do more cooking, but in reality know myself too well LOL! I try, but it doesn't turn out very well so I don't get much encouragement from the DH to try so much LOL. I think he would rather order food in!! : - ))

There is a TV on the wall between the door to the patio and the door to the family room. We put it there to watch while we are at the TV or at the island.

We had moved the MW out of the island and next to the refrigerator (to the right). I use it alot and just didn't like having to bend down to use it.

I will talk to the KD about all the other suggestions - Thank you.

Think about if you really need a window in front of the sink. Something like 70% of time spent in the kitchen is spent prepping, so you might want to move the sink to the windowless wall and leave counter space in front of the window for prep work.

I had thought you should always try to do a window in front of the sink - so when you are washing dishes you can look outside?

I would be so lost without all the great advice and feedback I have gotten so far on this posting and other postings over the past few weeks.

I think that rule is leftover from the time before dishwashers when people handwashed everything and spend lots of time at the sink. You know, the dark ages :) Even still, I spent 18 mos I spent in a dishwasher-less apartment and didn't mind that the window wasn't over the sink. I kind of preferred it where it was in the prep area. I was more likely to glance around while messing with the meal than while washing the dishes.

You can do a lot of cute things to dress up a windowless sink. Here are some links to help you visualize:
Things That Inspire: Kitchen sinks on Walls
persnicketydesign's Pics of our white kitchen for the FKB

the comment I have is about your bathroom. I have a bathroom close to the kitchen like that too. I would reccomend insulating those walls as well as the pipes in those walls AND use a fan that has noise to it to drown out the business taking place inside:) Despite all that, I still have guests that will go to an upstairs bathroom rather than use one that is right next to an eating table...

Hi Pence - The bathroom opening is something that really bothers me too. It is where the existing bathroom is and we are making it bigger, but didn't have anywhere else to put the door. It was either where it is, or the opening would have to be in the toy room (which in later years will be turned back into a formal dining room). And unfort there is no other place in the 1st floor to move the bathroom. Thanks for the idea abotu insulating the walls and pipes and fan!

Thanks Tracie.Erin...I will look through those sites tonight!

To put a sink in front of the window or not....that is the question!

Normally, I would say if you want the view when you do most of the work in the kitchen, then put it in the Prep Zone, not the Cleanup Zone. Because.... 70% of the time spent in the kitchen is spent prepping
20% is spent cleaning up
10% is spent cooking

So, it makes the most sense to put the Prep Zone in front of the window. However, if you're not going to cook, then I don't foresee much prepping, cooking, or cleaning up in your kitchen...so I'm not sure what to tell you!

In the layout I posted, I put the primary Prep Zone in the island so you could visit while prepping or getting the takeout ready for dinner. However, it's only the primary Prep Zone if there's also a sink.

The only problem w/putting the sink on the windowless wall is finding a place for the refrigerator. It cannot go on the long window wall at the other end b/c there's not enough room for it to fit b/c of the window on the adjacent wall. It would probably have to be in the middle of the wall and I'm not sure how that would work...you wouldn't want it too close to the window b/c it will block the window and look "wrong"...like you're making-do, not something you'd want in a just-remodeled kitchen.

5" b/w the wall & refrigerator? I doubt that's enough. Plus, unless your KD has plans we don't know about, that's 5" of wasted space.

MW Drawer...just to let you know there's not that much bending down with a drawer. It opens so the food is right in front of you...no bending and reaching inside to get to the food. However, I can understand wanting it higher...but don't make it so high that it becomes unsafe to use (like an OTR MW). Also consider your children...a MW drawer has a child-lock for when they're very young but they're low enough for children to safely use when they're old enough (they won't need a chair to get to it).

BTW...people seated at the island will not be able to watch TV without major twisting...the TV is behind all the seats.

I do think we have to clarify one major idea here...

AllNewAppliances...do you want a "Form over Function" kitchen (i.e., looks is more important than function) or "Function over Form"? I'm asking b/c you have stated more than once that you don't cook and you've even stated you doubt you will later. "Form over Function" isn't a bad thing, it's just different and if that's what you and your DH want, then that's what you should do...it's your kitchen!

Thanks buehl...I guess I want half form over function and half function over form - if that makes sense LOL! I want it to look nice since it will be a gathering place for family and friends, but I also want something that will "work" the right way.

I was thinking that the primary prep zone would be the island and now thinking of putting a prep sink into the island based on everyone's feedback.

I feel with the way we use our kitchen (not that much cooking, more like simple meals or take-out) that I spend more time at either the sink or the prep area cutting up veg, fruit, etc. I probably spend the least amount of time at the oven (is that bad to admit LOL!)

Where would you put the TV so it's able to be seen from the prep area, island seating and table seating. I had put the TV on that wall b/c I couldn't figure out anywhere else to fit one - no other empty wall that could be seen from the diff directions.

thank you.

What do you think of changing the pantry and refrigerator location like someone mentioned above? Would that work?

You are talking about my layout? If you change the pantry and fridge to the window wall and your ceilings are high enough, you could put the TV over top of the fridge. There used to be a thread about this with lots of pictures but I think it's become a casualty of the war. I found the below thread that has a few pics.

If you go with that layout the pantry cab will need to be less than full depth and will need to have a few inches of filler at the wall in order to account for the window trim. Sorry I didn't point that out earlier.

You'd need to post measurements so we could be sure, but instead of one window you may be able to fit two flanking the range. It's a stunning look if you have the room, especially if you bring them down to the counter.

Here is a link that might be useful: Over the fridge cabinet

Hi Tracie.Erin - you obviously don't know my DH, that size TV (tv size in link) would never satisfy him LOL. He needs one of those big ones....this is coming from a guy who is a big sports fan so watching on one of the smaller tv's is not good enough for him!
The ceiling height is not that high - it's a center hall colonial from the '60's so unfort we don't have the high ceilings.
I'm having my KD work out some new scenario's moving the ref and pantry and seeing what else can be done without impacting the cab size that much - we had already ordered the cabinets.
Thank you!

Aha, I have one of those monstrosities over my fireplace. If that is the case I think you have to leave it on the awkward wall it's on. It can be watched from the island prep area and some of the table seats. The island sitters will just have to deal :)

I don't want to encourage the TV watching in the kitchen (the kids...my DH is a lost cause)so the fact that you can't watch it that much from the island might be ok... LOL. Seriously once the kitchen is done I can talk my DH into buying a smaller TV than he wants and maybe fit it someplace else.

I am also waiting for my KD to come back with different designs b/c of the refrigerator issue.

If I just change the refrigerator and pantry would this be better for zone areas....or do you think I have to definitely change the location of the sink and range for it to be more cohesive?
Thanks!