None at all.

Hard to do a good Christopher Peacock copy with them. Otherwise, I can't think of any either.

Can I still do toe kick drawers?

The one con with frameless cabinets I"ve noticed has to deal with upper cabinets.

I have a few sets of 3- 15" upper cabinets in a row. My old cabinets were framed and these sets of 3 cabinets would connect with each other. The frameless cabinets need something to connect the door to, so these sets of 3 cabinets have to be one set of 2 beside one single cabinet. There is a "wall" between them that the framed cabinets did not need. You would have a similar issue with bottoms if you had three connecting bottom cabinets, but most are going all or mostly all drawers on the bottom so that is unlikely to happen these days.

Its a fairly minor "con". You get the most benefit from frameless out of bottom cabinets where you have drawers. It might be a decent idea to have frameless on the bottom, but framed and/or inset on the uppers if you think that would look good to you.

I agree with bodhi. Frameless on the bottom, esp. for drawer units and framed uppers. Best way to maximize the uppers is to have framed, built-in-place uppers. Built-in-place upper cabs use much less material and significantly more storage space vs. individual boxes.

Disadvantage is that you give up adjustable shelves.

If you use framed or frameless upper boxes, try to use mostly larger boxes to minimize the vertical cab ends that eat up storage space & crimp you on how you use them.

No reason that you can't have toe-kick drawers on frameless bottoms. I've seen Ikea toe kick drawer hacks. Ikea is frameless.

I'm linking a short video from an old This Old House episode that will give you a good understanding of built-in-place cabinets if you're a little confused about the method. It's definitely old school but newer methods are not always better methods. Be sure to note the expanses of uninterrupted shelving.

Here is a link that might be useful: Built In Place Cabinet Video

When I mentioned combining frameless bottoms with framed inset uppers, my contractor said the difference between the door size on the uppers and on the lowers would look "off".

In this case the framed uppers were inset.

I figured you could work around this somehow by making the frameless cabinets on the bottom smaller, but I didn't press him on it because I was looking for more storage and smaller cabinets kind of defeated that purpose.

Is that right?

That link was very helpful. I wish we could do that in our kitchen, but the cabinets are so broken up with the small layout we would only have one 60in stretch to use it for, so for me I guess it isn't a big deal to stay with frameless.

The tip about framed uppers is interesting.

Well, you know, I have that kind of site-built framed mega cabs with doors to make them look like more cabinets and I can't tell you how much I hate them. Things are always migrating to hard to reach spots and having the frames in the way makes it harder to place things efficiently. I think this is totally a pick your poison kind of choice. For me, I'd pay hugely more to get away from it if I had to. Just depends on what you prefer--I don't think you can say it's definitely better for everyone.

I did frameless full overlay on the bottom and framed inset on the top. I love the look of inset, but I really needed to save money and maximize storage space. Going frameless saved me 10% and gave me more space. The inset cost me an extra 10%, but I came out ahead because I have a lot more bottom cabinets than upper cabinets.

My door sizes on the bottom and upper cabinets are totally different, so there is no problem with them looking "off." I have mostly drawers on the bottom anyway.

IF you want a uniform look but don't want frameless on the top you could do frameless on the bottom and then framed with full overlay on the top. All frameless cabs are full overlay by definition. This should give you the same look on top and bottom, give you the advantage of frameless on the bottom where you have drawers, and give you the open internal upper cabinets on the top.

If I were going to do this over again, I think thats what I would do. Certain kitchens wouldn't lend themselves to this type of design though. If you had floor to ceiling sections with no countertop it might throw it off or make you pick one or the other to go the entire height.

I've never heard storage space being an advantage of framed vs frameless before. I thought it was the other way around.

If you have a long enough run where 3 doors are needed, then framed cabs would need a center stile which limits interior access anyway.

So then the question becomes whether to go with a single or separate boxes for extremely long cab runs. There is something to be said for separate boxes vs one gigantic box, re. the separate shelving adjustability (vs same height shelves with vertical stile separation).

Here's a pic of our frameless uppers (64.5" run in total, split into a 21.5" single-door box and a 43" double-door box). I like that the shelving is separately adjustable between the cabs which gives the flexibility to a have higher-height water-bottle shelf in the one cab without affecting the shelving in the other box. In a single framed upper, you'd need at least one stile and you wouldn't be able to adjust the shelving separately between stiles.

Mpagmom, is there a picture of your top inset bottom frameless installation? Could I see?

I searched, and only found your sink wall, but maybe I missed a thread...

Just when I thought I understood, taggie's post has me more confused. Your frameless uppers seem to work great, so no need to do framed above and frameless below?

So far only two of my wall cabinets are installed and I don't have great pictures. Here are a couple though to give you an idea (and sorry they are huge).

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Here is another kitchen from my inspiration pictures that has inset-upper/full-overlay-lower cabinets. I can't remember where I got this picture so I apologize if I'm posting someone else's kitchen!

I honestly don't see the problem your contractor is talking about, jamies.

Frameless lowers, with drawers.
Framed uppers, with shelves: a mega continuous upper cabinet per each wall.

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It is true that the uppers can have same size doors as the lowers, or not.

When you say something to a contractor, the contractor will mention its consequences just so you know and so that you are not totally ignorant of the consequences. Tell him you know already and the conversation moves on to the next thing. In this case, if the framed uppers _are inset_ , someone has to say at some point that the doors are not the same width as the other way... and that person might also say it would look "off". No big deal.

I did the same--
Frameless lowers with drawers and Framed uppers(minimal frame)

I don't understand why frameless on the uppers doesn't work, what am I missing?

Me too, Maggie. Why would I want framed uppers? I had those once. They have protrusions into the front shelf space (the face frame) that hide or block whatever is at the side of a shelf. They have a strip of wood down the center of the box that needs to be worked around. With my frameless, I open the door and have 100% access to my shelves without any blind spots.

Speaking ONLY for myself, I would never choose frameless cabinets over framed cabinets.
What are the advantages of a frameless cabinet over a framed cabinet with full overlay doors? They both look rather similar and can be made to look almost identical.
Is there substantially more useful internal volume in a frameless cabinet than an equally sized framed cabinet? Not really.
Are frameless easier to install and to square up, particularly in older homes? Absolutely not.
Is the thin banding glued on the edge of the plywood or composite sides of a frameless cabinets sandable or can it be repaired easily?
Are the short 1/2" wood screws that attach the Euro door hinges as secure when attached to plywood sides as they wood be if screwed into hardwood frames? No, and I have seen those hinge screws yank out and take part of the side panel of frameless cabinets with it.

After many years of working with Euro/frameless cabinets, I am no more sold on them than I was decades ago. Having said that, they are less costly to manufacture over all and I have no reason to tell someone not to purchase them.
To me the edge banding has a cheap look when the doors are open. In addition, the cabinets and are not nearly as durable during installation and tend to rack much more easily. Because of the large hinges and the attachment of them with short screws into plywood, the doors seem to require more frequent adjustment. Like any large hinge, I have found that the Euro hinges tend to sag/ deteriorate over time the larger they are.

Now this is just my own opinion and I do not want to suggest that anyone follow it in selecting a product they like. There are plenty of very well made frameless cabinets out there if that is your preference. Like any other product, beware of the cheaper products which tend to fall apart like cheap Chinese furniture from Walmart.

Why would I want framed uppers? I had those once. They have protrusions into the front shelf space (the face frame) that hide or block whatever is at the side of a shelf.

The sides of the face frame on a framed cabinet extend appx one inch, but they do not block access to anything. Those big Euro hinges in that pic extend out just as much. Also, on the interior, the shelved are supported at each end by brackets that take up about an inch, just like in any other cabinet.

They have a strip of wood down the center of the box that needs to be worked around.

That's not the case. Framed cabinets can be ordered with no center stile.

There is no easy choice where one can say that one is better than the other. This is a choice that involves choices about appearance, durability, cost, etc. and different conclusions will be drawn by different people.

I agree with all that you said there jakuvall, except I have different experience with screws pulling out of mdf material., including those reinforced within plastic grommets. Screws in hardwood hold better than screws into mdf, but again, different opinions abound. As far as Euro cabinet hinges requiring adjustment over time, again, my experience is somewhat different than yours.

Here is another take on some of the respective advantages/disadvantages which I think is useful:
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"Frameless or Face frame cabinets

Frameless (European Style) cabinets were developed in Europe following World War II as a less expensive alternative for the reconstruction effort. Due to a shortage of hardwood, this style of cabinetry was engineered to use very little solid wood. Frameless cabinet construction consists ofdoors attached directly to a particle board or MDF (Medium Density Fiberboard) box. The cabinet box material is usually lined with melamine or vinyl. Doors are full-overlay, meaning that they completely overlap the cabinet box.

Face-frame cabinets use a hardwood frame at the front of the cabinet. All hardware is secured into the hardwood face-frame instead of a particle board box. Frame profiles can be adjusted to easily accept crown molding, any variation of angles or cabinet depths, as well as accommodate flush toe kick or furniture toe kick applications. Face-frame cabinets are stronger, more durable, and easier to install than frameless cabinets."

For me the biggest advantage of frameless is the extra drawer width, as jakuval pointed out, especially if space is at a premium in the kitchen. Outside that, I usually prefer the framed cabs, especially when I am the one installing.

Here is a link that might be useful: Framed v Frameless

I'm on the frameless bandwagon due to the increased space it allows for drawers. I had framed cabinets in my last kitchen and I had one bank of drawers where the frame was so big that it took up nearly 30% of the available space, leaving very narrow and shallow drawers. I swore I'd never lose that much space again.

One thing I found out in speaking with contractors in my area (Northern California) about custom cabinets is that "Euro-style" is not the same as frameless. When contractors say they'll install Euro-style cabinets, what they mean is a cabinet with about an inch of frame, which is narrower than the more common frame but still not frameless.

In my kitchen where every inch counts, even Euro-style wasn't going to work for me.

OMG, I'm soooo confused.
Let me throw in yet another monkey wrench.
Which one is more eco-friendly?
On the one hand, it seems that frameless might use less hardwood, but on the other hand, it might be using more MDF and VOC-emitting glue and stuff. Any ideas?

Also, can anyone post a pic of their framed uppers without that stupid center stile?

olivertwist- you can get either that qualify for LEEDS points, you can get either with NAUF (no added formaldehyde)
And Relax...just let the info sit, go out and look at some cabinets. A lot will depend on what brand you find that suits you,the overall design and what the KD knows how to do with what he is working with. And the folks around here love to help out with all of that.

Just look at what you have to store, then figure out what goes where. When I go and measure I open every cabinet and take pictures of the "stuff" along with any that is stored in the basement or wherever. I usually only take measurements of a few things that I don't already know what they are.

heri cles- we'll just have to settle on disagreeing about the screws...as well as I don't find middle of the road, pocket hole framed cabinets to be stronger than frameless. Any of those things you mention re:design I do all the time in frameless, only variable is how I add an extra piece to the top molding to make them even with the door plane but I always do on full overlay cabinets.

Frameless can have either an mdf, aka "furniture board", box or a plywood box. In either case, a skin of nice hardwood is veneered over the core. The eco part of this is that more rare and valuable trees can be stretched to cover a lot of kitchen cabinets and make them look terrific. According to my Furniture and Cabinet Making teacher, the reason they started doing this in Europe was because they don't have as many trees as they did in the days of Hansel and Gretel, so they devised this way of making the good stuff go further.

Framed cabinetry is essentially the same as far as materials go - few are made with solid wood boxes. They use a little more wood to build the frames themselves.

On the eco-friendly question, that's hard to say. MDF uses what is essentially scrap fiber mixed with resin and formed under high pressure. So fewer trees are cut down, but then there is the resin and the power to supply the necessary high pressure. Plywood is made from thin sheets of common wood veneer glued together, so there is the glue question and it must require pressure to insure that all the glued layers stick together properly. Both kinds require transport to the fabrication site and then to the cabinet maker's site, and then to you, so that's a lot of lifting and fuel. In the end, I'm sorry to say, I decided not to think about it too hard.

Olivertwist, my framed uppers (posted above) don't have the stupid stile. That one is 33" wide. I can't remember how wide they could go without a center stile, but it's at least 3'. Two more cabinets were installed today (one to go) so I should get a better picture soon.

My framed and frameless cabinets are both made of plywood and maple. I don't think there is any "greenness" difference between the two styles.

Hi Olivertwist,

Here are some pictures of one of my framed inset upper cabinets.
They are plenty roomy and don't feel any less accessible than the frameless IKEA cabinets they replaced. I'm showing three different shots so that you can see how open the cabinets are.

If one has a teeny, tiny kitchen where every inch mattered perhaps it would be worth fussing over the difference between framed and frameless uppers. But in most average-size (100 square feet?) kitchens I can't imagine that it would matter if you picked framed rather than frameless.

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Sorry for posting the same picture twice.

Here is what I meant to post:

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francoise-- How much usable space do you have inside those inset uppers? One custom co. in PA does 12" and said 11" is usable. If you want larger its more money. So, just wondering what you have? : )

The cabinet in my picture above 13" deep
and has 11" of useable space on the inside, plenty for my plates and dishes.
Our every day dinner plates are 10 1/2 inches in diameter.

The cabinet is 36" wide (in my opinion a great usable width for a cabinet).

(We have a wall of deeper cabinets on the other side of the kitchen for larger serving pieces, etc.)

francoise:
Wow, I really like your framed inset cabinets.
You have a great look going on there with that cool tile backsplash (1" x 2" tiles?) and counters.
Nice fit to the side wall with those cabinets as well...something that can't always be done without a spacer/filler when installing other cabinet types..

It was nice visiting this forum and looking at kitchens of people who are passionate about creating their living/cooking spaces. I will drop by again when I do my next kitchen to look at some of your kitchens and to share your creative thoughts and ideas on kitchens.

Between framed and frameless for upper cabinets, there is hardly any difference, or "nothing to get hung about". I agree.

I can think of one situation where it is helpful to have framed uppers: when your frame covers long continuous shelves (not cabinet walls). Then, the frame lets you have narrow doors. If there were narrow boxes, your storage would be affected, and seriously affected if the objects stored are large. With narrow doors you can reach inside to get a glass that may be slightly closer to another door on the side. Wider doors are more "in the way" when opened. And so on.

Neither of the custom cabinetry places in PA I've spoken with do frameless, so it may depend on who ends up doing your cabinetry? I don't remember if you stated that above or not.

Home Depot has a frameless cabinetry line, InnerMost Cabinetry, by Elkay. They are excellent. I'm aware of the pros and cons for both types of cabinets. I have frameless and wouldn't give them up for anything.