And here's a rough layout of the kitchen and adjacent areas.

The post that's most useful for this is the "Layout Help" topic in the FAQs (linked below).

May I also ask that you please use spacing, etc. in your posts? It's difficult to read a post when everything runs together. A blank line b/w paragraphs and long list items helps tremendously! As it stands, it's difficult to pick out your responses to the questions you've listed. It took me about three readings to finally figure out what you were saying - and I may have missed some things.

Sorry about the above comments, but this is an issue that can sometimes result in few responses b/c it's too difficult to get to the "meat" of the post.

Is the layout you posted your current layout or your plans for the new kitchen?

Do you have a fully labeled layout of the entire first floor? This helps in determining traffic flow and, in your case, whether you can fit the walk-in pantry you want so much. For example, what's in the upper left corner of your second drawing (the one that shows the LR & DR)?

Could the Laundry Room move to behind the Powder Room?

Where are you flexible?

• Can windows or doorways change size?

• Can they be moved or eliminated?

• Can windows be raised/lowered?

• Can any walls come down?

• Does the sink have to be centered under a window?

• Does it have to be under a window at all?

Note: The more constraints you put on a space (e.g., sink centered under a window, not willing to move plumbing, electric, or gas lines), the fewer options there are. So, be sure any limitations/constraints you mention are true constraints. You could say you would like something to not be moved/changed or placed in a certain location, but if it is not a must or truly impossible, then mention it is a preference but that you would consider something different.

What appliances do you plan on having (helps to figure out work flow, work zones, and types of cabinets...upper/lower vs full height, etc.) Some you've mentioned, but to get a full list, see below. I put what I think you said above in red font below.

• Range or Cooktop or Rangetop? - Probably Range, based on what you said above

• Single or Double or no Wall Oven? - If room

• Warming Drawer?

• MW? (Advantium, MW Drawer, OTR MW/Hood, countertop, built-in, shelf?) - Yes - would a MW drawer work?

• DW? Standard or drawers? If drawers, 1 or 2?

• Refrigerator (Top/bottom freezer, SxS, or all-fridge/freezer? Counter-depth (CD), standard-depth, or built-in?) - two - but what kind for the primary?

• Ventilation Hood? - Yes

• Other? - You've already said a Steam oven - anything else not listed above?

Sizes of desired appliances (e.g., 30" or 36" or 48" cooktop; 36" or 42" or 48" wide or other Refrigerator? etc.)

Here is a link that might be useful: FAQ: How do I ask for Layout Help and what information should I include?

Thank you, buehl, and sorry for the unformatted post. I composed in Word, but lost all the formatting pasting it into GW. (How do you change the font? I guess I need to read up more on the mechanics of posting.) I can't believe I overlooked your helpful FAQ on requesting layout help. I'll redo.

Copy and pasting from Word doesn't always work well. Try editing your post. You can add spaces, etc. Edit is in the upper right hand corner of your post.

Okay, here's my 2nd try. I hope I've included more relevant info this time. Thanks for your patience!

Our family has been in this house 13 years and now that our two sons have pretty much flown the nest, I have time to acknowledge all the problems I have with our kitchen. The layout photos (in the next post) are of our existing kitchen and home. All windows are working (go up and down) and have screens.

⢠Goals:

1. consolidate prep area & separate from clean-up zone

2. fix traffic paths so they're kept out of prep & cooking zones

3. possibly make room for a standard depth fridge (currently it's cabinet depth)

4. fix venting system (it's loud and inadequate, probably because it's not installed correctly, based on what I've read here)

5. get properly finished cabinets that can stand up to kitchen use (heat & water)

6. I'd really like to reconfigure the entry with an actual mudroom. I'm not sure if this should be a separate post/request elsewhere, but I've seen others get good suggestions about mudrooms & entries along with kitchen layout advice so I thought I'd just throw that in, in case someone can see a way to improve the layout.

⢠We are two adults with one 19-year-old college student soon to be home for the summer. We have two kitchen workers pretty often, especially for cleanup, sometimes for prep. I cook almost every day from scratch but less intensively now that our two boys have pretty much flown the nest. I bake every couple of weeks or so. I love trying new recipes and have a pretty good cookbook collection, way too many cooking magazines, and an extensive recipe collection. DH usually fixes his own breakfast & lunch, typically leftovers, and I'm in charge of dinner.

⢠Mainly our kitchen is for cooking and cleaning up, but since cooking and baking are longstanding hobbies of mine, I'm in there quite a bit. People do gather around and in the kitchen, and it sort of works for holiday gatherings when we have extra help. I'd say the kitchen is optimally designed for clean-up, putting things away after a meal. For prep, not so much.

⢠Entertaining is infrequent now, mostly holiday family gatherings with at most 20 people. It's all informal.

⢠I'm struggling with what I want the kitchen to be. I guess I'd most like it to function optimally for everyday cooking needs as well as the occasional food preserving. The 7' x 4' island works well for the hunters' sausage-making operation and as a buffet at parties, but as a daily meal prep space it often functions as a barrier island, probably because I don't have my most used tools properly stored. It feels like I don't have enough room for them in the prep area since the most used prep area has the DW under it.

I'd like the aisles to be able to accommodate multiple cooks. I do like having a place for someone to relax and chat while I'm cooking, and I...

Our current kitchen layout.

Here is a link that might be useful: Imp's kitchen layout

This post was edited by Imp.capensis on Sun, May 11, 14 at 9:49

When in photo bucket, and on a photo, click on share, then on the choice for blogs, etc., after you click on it, it will say, "copied", then paste it into the post. There will be several lines of code for each photo. I'm going to try to see if I can post your pictures.

Ah! Thank you, debrak2008!

When we remodeled, we replaced a bay window that was 22" off the floor with a counter-height bay window. It was one of the best things we did b/c it:
(1) Added much needed counter and cabinet space
(2) Allowed us to separate the Prep & Cooking Zones from the Cleanup Zone
(3) Allowed us to have a small walk-in pantry

Our bay window is about 7' long and 18" deep. It cost us $2,100. I would think it would cost less for straight windows than for a bay window. But even if it doesn't, it was well worth the cost! (We live in the DC/Baltimore area - a rather expensive area but not as bad as, say, NY City. So depending on where you live, it could be less or more.)

You have a lot that you want to do - is it all supposed to cost $25K or less (excepting the appliances)? Mudroom, Pantry, Kitchen, Perhaps rework the Laundry Room

Question: Could the Laundry Room move to behind the Powder Room? It would take some of the Office space, but would it be worth it? What do you do in the Office? With laptops/computers, most offices don't need the space they used to need - unless you have a lot of paper storage, etc.

The weekend is coming up - I could work on some ideas, but probably not until Friday night/Saturday. Others may beat me to it, but it looks like a fun space to work on! And a challenge fitting it all in! :-)

Here is a link that might be useful: Thread: HTML Codes... or how to do cool stuff to your posts!

Oh, buehl. As soon as I typed that bit about the big windows staying, I wondered if that would be the first thing to go. I'm amazed that you could replace your bay for $2100. (We moved here to north central WV 14 years ago from northern VA, and yes, construction costs do seem to be more expensive there than here). I'm encouraged to consider this possibility. But did the $2100 include the fixes to the exterior I would guess you had to make as well?

The $25K estimate is a SWAG based on rough estimates I got from a couple of local places for replacing the cabinets when I pushed them to guess at refitting a 14' x 16' kitchen.

You ask: Could the Laundry Room move to behind the Powder Room? It would take some of the Office space, but would it be worth it?

I've thought about this too. The main thing that's kept me from moving my office space upstairs is the custom-made bookshelves hutch thing on the desk, which reaches to just over 8', the ceiling height upstairs. That's probably the best place to move my little retreat if it weren't for the ceiling ht. But yes, I'm open to shifting the laundry room.

Another thing I've wondered about is reorienting/moving the powder room. Basement has suspended ceiling, which if I understand correctly, is supposed to make it easier to get at the plumbing. It does sound like all these changes would put us into real money.

Thank you so very much for your thoughts on my project.

Yes, it did include the exterior "fix", but we have aluminum siding. If you have a brick, stone, or other, more expensive, exterior, it may cost more.

I suggest you at least look into the possibility - get 2 or 3 estimates to see what it would cost in your area.

The layout shows the windows as 10' wide, total - is that correct? (Your comment says you have three 6' windows - which would make them 18' wide - or were you talking about the height?)

I'm working on a couple of ideas.

Oh, about your picture codes - those should be angle brackets (), not square brackets ([ ]).

Would it be possible to turn the island?

If you have the cooktop and oven on the other wall...you could have a prep sink on the island. This would give you a wonderful prep area for baking and cooking.

The fridge could stay where it is, handy to the main work area, but still easy to reach for others. The clean up area could be to the left of the fridge...and maybe you could reuse your glass upper cabinets (very pretty) on that side.

If you do decide to reuse the cabinets...you might have a little space left over at the end (left of the dishwasher). Perhaps a small pantry of broom closet could go there?

The microwave might be handy under the counter in the island...across from the fridge and clean up sink. This would make a great snack area!

Just a few ideas...oh, and maybe a window seat or low shelves (extra storage) under the window? Hope this helps :) {{gwi:2107346}}From Kitchen plans

This post was edited by lavender_lass on Sat, May 10, 14 at 15:40

We have vinyl siding in that area so taking out those windows does sound like it may be a real possibility. I'll look into this.

Yes, altogether the windows are 10'2" including the trim.

I can see why you want to use that window wall since everything I've tried keeping the current setup and leaving out my precious walk-in pantry won't seem to work. Well, I guess it might if I shrank the fridge space and stacked the MW and steam oven. (I hope I've managed to paste in my latest attempt.)

Thanks for the tip about posting pictures; I'm so surprised this forum wants things in html.

Really appreciate your time and effort, buehl.

Here's the first layout - it includes: Kitchen, Pantry, Mudroom, Laundry Room, Powder Room. But, it uses your current office space. I thought I'd do a full-scale one to show you what you can do if you're willing/able to move your office.

Brief analysis:

The Prep & Cooking Zones are departed from the Cleanup Zone and they are well out of the traffic b/w the main entry and the rest of the house.

The main refrigerator is on the periphery yet easy to get to from both the Prep and Cooking Zones. It's also very close to the DR for ease of getting condiments, etc. It's also a standard-depth (SD) refrigerator.

The Dish Hutch, in the Cleanup Zone, is also next to the DR for setting the table, etc. without having to cross any of the other work zones.

The primary Prep Zone is on the perimeter under the window. It has deeper than normal counters (3" deeper than standard). This is where the prep sink is located. A secondary Prep Zone is the island. Note that the island can be used at the same time as the perimeter. If needed, you could add a sink there as well, but I don't think you really need it

This layout will work well with one cook or multiple cooks..

The Cleanup Zone has counters 4.5" deeper than normal. This gives you deeper workspace, more space in front of the Dish Hutch, and more room behind the sink for fixtures. Oh, I forgot to label the 30"W x 12"D plate rack above the sink (mounted higher than 18" off the counter).

The alcove walls help hide the dirty dishes, etc.

Note: To see a bigger version, click on the picture.

With a Zone map...

I'm still working on a second Kitchen layout.

Thank you, buehl! What a lovely Mother's Day present! You've given me lots to think about and process.

Best wishes to you on this Mother's Day.

Betsy

Alternate for Layout #1 - leave the Entry Door and Mudroom windows as-is:

Layout #2

This layout has an All-Refrigerator & All-Freezer. With these two appliances, you probably won't need a second refrigerator.

(Note: The Entry Door and Mudroom windows could remain unchanged for this layout as well.)

Zone map...

This post was edited by buehl on Sun, May 11, 14 at 11:04

Thank you, Lavender Lass! For some reason I didn't get an email notice about your post. Weird, because I'm getting buehl's.

Yes, I've been wondering about rotating the island too. I like that spot for the prep sink since I'm often standing there to prep and walking around that corner of the island to get to the sink or range.

One issue with that spot for the range and main cooking triangle though is that people seem to naturally come thru that path when they come into the house. I realize now I should have made a note of the typical traffic paths on the drawings. I've been trying to find a way to redirect them with walls or furniture. This past winter I even closed off that doorway from the entry hall to the kitchen with a counter-high shelving unit, and our poor dog and cats were so flummoxed by this change, and so were we humans. It did do the trick though in that it kept people out of the cooking triangle more, and they used that neglected side of the island by the windows. Here's my attempt at showing the typical traffic patterns:

I keep thinking if I shifted that opening from the entry to the kitchen toward the dining area, people might more naturally go past the kitchen work area into the living area.

And, finally, one that keeps your office, albeit smaller! There isn't room for an extra refrigerator, so I would pair it with the Kitchen from Layout #2 (or similar).

[Edit] Oops! Forgot to mention:

The Door to the Laundry Room is 30" wide. Personally, I do not like going through the Laundry Room to get to a Mudroom or Powder Room - it puts all your laundry on display! So, that's why I have the Laundry Room off the Mudroom.

The Powder Room in Layouts 1 & 2 is 5' x 5'. In Layout #3, it's 5'0" deep (front-to-back) and 5'6" wide. Our Powder Room is 4'6" in both directions and it's fine even though it's small - yours has an extra 6" of depth.

The Laundry Room in Layout #1 is 6'2" deep, in Layout #2 it's 6'4" deep, and in Layout #3 it's 5'0" deep. It's 5'0" wide in all three layouts.

This post was edited by buehl on Sun, May 11, 14 at 12:24

People and pets will always take the path of least resistance. I imagine with the path directly into the kitchen the work area becomes a drop zone??? If everyone had to walk thru the entry hall that could keep people and stuff out of the cooking area. If you don't want a solid wall there, just have a "window" opening. You could then put a counter in front of it.

Regarding traffic - your observations are why I put the Prep & Cooking Zones either to the left of the island or above the island. People will want to come into the kitchen from the entry way as long as there is an opening.

I don't recommend closing that opening up, though, b/c you want easy access to the Pantry (assuming you have one in the new design!)

Even in Layout #1 with the Cleanup Zone in the right aisle, it should work.

First, you only spend about 20% (or less) of your time cleaning up while you spend 80% (or more) of your time prepping and cooking.

Second, the aisle is 45" wide, which should allow someone to pass by an open DW door. (We have 46" and there's plenty of room for someone to pass b/w the open DW and the counter on the other side of the aisle.)

Third, if the DW is open, it will naturally steer people clear of the area - hopefully back into the Hall (and you can probably "train" others to do so when the DW is open).

This post was edited by buehl on Sun, May 11, 14 at 13:07

So you think this might not be a good idea, buehl?

That line across that doorway is supposed to be a half wall or dutch door, something like that. The opening btwn fridge & freezer would provide some access to hallway and a straight shot to the pantry. But I'm not sure it works to have the freezer hanging out there all by itself. However, it might give the pacers in the family something to orbit outside of the main business of the kitchen.

I'll have to look up the door opening width on those all fridge/freezers. It looks like it might be tight getting past when they're open.

I suppose it wouldn't be a good idea to shrink the width of the island even further to provide a little more space btwn it and the fridge/freezer wall.

I really like the mudroom setup you've come up with, buehl, and the laundry room opening off it. I'm with you about separating the two, and keeping the powder rm separate as well.

I neglected to indicate where the windows are in my little office, but your last iteration keeps one of the nice aspects of the house in that you get a nice little view of the backyard from the dining area thru the door and window in my office.

The powder room size is great IMO. I've always felt like the one we have is a waste of good space.

What was your reason for keeping the entry door where it is in that last layout, rather than having us enter thru the mudroom as in some of your other layouts?

I can't thank you enough for all your time and your work, buehl!

Regarding leaving the door where it is now - I did it to reduce the cost of the overall project. I thought it would free up some money for other changes.

Regarding the freezer - it's fine "hanging out there". There's a wall next it to anchor it and it's not very visible from the DR & LR - only the door is visible. As to the doors - how long do you expect the refrigerator or freezer door to be open? I doubt it will be much of an issue in the long run. Plus, with that opening b/w them, it will be easy enough to go around. I would not make the island any narrower. Right now, there's around 40" b/w the prep sink and the edge of the counter - I would not want any less for prep space. I would not reduce the aisle b/w the DW and the island either. I think you'll be OK.

The Half Wall...do you need it? I removed it in my layouts....can it be removed? If not, then see below.

Note that I extended the wall next to the refrigerator and shortened the wall next to the freezer - can that be done? (It works better if you can remove the wall segment b/w the kitchen and the entry.) I also extended the wall next to the Dish Hutch to hide the dirty dishes & Cleanup Zone from the DR.

I like Buehl's plan...but maybe with a few changes to make traffic flow a bit differently? Just an idea :)
{{gwi:2107357}}From Kitchen plans

Oh, Lavender Lass! I just now saw your modification of Buehl's layout #3, and it's right in line with what I've been playing around with tonight. My sister-in-law keeps reminding me that I want to keep traffic out of my cooking zone so I was thinking about a peninsula coming out from under that window next to the oven cabinet.

Is the cabinet that you've rotated from under the window in the entry hall still counter high? I like your addition of a plant next to it near the window. I wasn't sure in my drawing how it would look if the countertop ended in the middle of the window but with a plant there it kind of looks right.

The variation that I've been working on tonight has the doorway separating message center counter and the fridge storage, but I think I might like your way better. And I like that you managed to tuck in an extra stool on the island, too.

I'm still torn between buehl's Layout 1 and Layout 3/4 -- the latter puts the cleanup zone in a more visible spot from the entry, and then I wonder if I'd use the prep sink much since that area between the cleanup sink and the range is a natural for prep. Well except that the fridge is across the room and there's an island to navigate around to get from it to the sink. So I think you're right, and the space will work best if the fridge is closest to the entry hall and maybe I'll just knuckle under and dry those few dishes I tend to let drip-dry on the counter.

I'll see if I can get my modification of Layout 3/4 in shape to post just in case you or anyone else might have any thoughts or comments.

Oh, did you also slide the island closer to the dining room?

I may be pricing myself out of this remodel, but Buehl's recommendation to change the window wall to accommodate counters and cabinets got me thinking about shifting the window from the existing entry hall into the kitchen and moving the pantry closer to the kitchen. The window in this spot will give me that all-important view of the driveway from the kitchen so I can see who's coming and going. Shifting the pantry will help block the view of the clean-up area from the entry (at least I hope it will) and make the traffic flow past the cooking area. And I think that doorway between the pantry and the fridge wall will allow us to keep our view to the back thru the window in the mudroom.

I'd be grateful for any thoughts or comments.