Just a quick question - is that a prep sink on the island?

Oh yes, that is supposed to be a prep sink. Forgot to label! We added that because it is a long haul from range to sink. We have that same distance now. Still working on the clean up to take pictures ...

Here is the current kitchen:

Looking from the great room -> this is the wall we plan to remove:

These are taken from outside, hence the haziness ... hard to get the room in a picture.

Sink Wall

Stove Wall

Looking at wall to remove:

Rest of Stove Wall - the large cabinet used to have the Washer/Dryer, but we already had it moved elsewhere in preparation for the kitchen remodel

Here is a floorplan with more dimensions.

A little more info. We are a family of four. This house was built in 1947 and had a big renovation in 1998, which is when I think this kitchen was put in. We really want to open it up to the rest of the house and gain more counter space. The current uppers are extra long, so they make the space seemed closed in. We added the French doors about a year ago. They do open *in* which is why we want minimum of 3 ft of cabinet at the end.

Original plan was to do a pennisula, but no one was that excited about it. Then we read an article about how islands were almost always better than pennisulas and it really opened up our ideas on the layout.

The concern on the island is that it will be kind of narrow, so if you stick the micro and a prep sink in there, it doesn't really have any storage.

I'll have to measure, but I think the pantry will be 4.5' x 7'.

We remodeled a bathroom a few years back and I was active on the bathroom forum (although I can't find my old user name or posts for the life of me ... do they fall off after a certain time?).

Well, without the island, you will have a big, open expanse between zones that may feel too distant, and almost awkward because of that distance. And with the island, you remove the microwave from counter top, effectively making more counter top available as well as adding island counter top. It's hard for me to see too much of a down side to having the island, other than additional cost! I'd totally put it in. Your configuration has a slight bit of barrier island but since the prep is likely to take place at the island it's not that problematic.

In the above layout, I would be concerned about the route you'd have to take to drain a big pot of pasta - all the way across the kitchen and around the island. Prep sinks aren't really big enough for that IME. I probably wouldn't put a prep sink in an island of that size.

In your case I would consider a peninsula, something like this:

I would prefer the island. I would not like the range placed where Fiesty shows it.

If you do go with the island, why wouldn't you make it longer?

beautybutdebtfree - you hit upon our reasons for the island. It's quite a distance without it. Thanks for your feedback!

feisty68 That is almost our exact original plan! I think we just weren't that excited about it. Still felt fairly closed off and then have to worry about venting the range. I also felt that with the range and sink so close, Husband and I would be trying to occupy the same space.

We added that prep sink in the island to addres the issue of draining/filling pots. You don't think a prep sink would work for that?

We'll look at the pennisula again.

dilly_ny, Which way would you extend the island? Due to the french doors opening in, we don't want to extend to the doors. I am in the camp of extending more to the great room, DH is not so sure, but looking at it, it seems we could make it at least 2 feet longer without really blocking anything. He was just worried about the "barrier island" effect. If we made it longer, it would be more useful.

I would want a sink in the same run as the range. Move the range to the main sink run and put the prep sink in the run with the fridge, OR move the fridge into the run with the main sink and put the prep sink in the run where the range is OR do what fiesty drew.

The prep sink in an island that I use in our complex's kitchen facility is too small for filling pots or draining large pasta pots. I know that some KDs consider it a no-no to have to cross any traffic lanes between range and sink. My kids are still at the erratic ages so that does seem like a concern for me, but I imagine some don't have to worry about that at all.

I guess I like the peninsula idea because the breakfast bar creates somewhere to sit while socializing with chefs, and it also allows a view through your french doors. It will feel much more open than the wall that is there now, of course.

Or, something like this:

Range sink dishwasher fridge (left to right) all on window wall, perpendicular to French doors. Beef up island, possibly with breakfast bar. Nothing on opposite wall, or 12-15" deep full height pantries.

More inspiration photos

Here is a link that might be useful:

I'd also relook at the peninsula. Maybe not exactly the way it's all laid out but the point about people having a place to sit and visit and see the outdoors from that vantage point is worth considering.

I'm pondering moving the cleanup sink/area over to the fridge wall and having a slightly larger prep sink where the main sink is now maybe.... just a preliminary off the cuff impression.

Thanks debrak2008 & feisty68 for the feedback. I really don't think I can fit the sink, fridge & range on one side. We have the fridge & range on one side now and it seems cramped. Of course, we have a w/d cabinet that we will no longer need, so maybe ...
Plus the door swing issue. The doors can't swing out because the grill is there in the outdoor kitchen.

I know, non ideal, but it is what it is.

Let me think about putting a prep sink by the range. That side seems a bit tight since we're adding the pantry door.

deedles, Good points about having a seating area at the breakfast bar. I'll look at that again.

Our dining room table is right there, so we were also concerned about the bar getting into the dining area. Let me take a picture of that when I get home this evening.

Taking Feisty's suggestion and running with it. ;-)

I moved the range down to center it in that area, making room for 2 people to work on both sides of the range. You could move it down even more so that it isn't across from the DW.

I added a bit of depth to the counter-depth fridge. Unless you intend to purchase a fully integrated built-in fridge, the fridge door and handles will extend past the lip of the counter. Built-in fridges will be slightly less deep (about 27" deep) than a freestanding counter depth fridge (about 29" deep). Ranges also often extend beyond the counter edge so your 42" aisle isn't a 42" the whole length. That's why I increased it to 43.5" with the aisle between island and window wall 42". I think you could even cheat another inch or two from that aisle for the kitchen aisle and not notice that small change.

You didn't say if you want island seating but I added 2 seats at the end anyway, right next to the wine fridge (great location ;-) ).

Yes, this plan means no perimeter cabs along the window wall but since you're adding a pantry and I made the island deep enough for 24" cabs back to back, I don't think you'll lack for storage. And if you want, you can add more windows to that wall.

As long as you have 60" or close to it between the end of island and your DR table, you can fit seating at the end of the island. If you have less than that, say closer to 44", then I think you need to either forgo island seating or shorten the island.

lisa_a, Interesting!

I'm not sure I see the advantage of having all the work space squished together. There are usually at least two of us doing stuff in there. Is it just to get the sink near the range?

I did think of doing something similar on the opposite wall, but then the fridge would be behind the 2nd french door (when they are both open - the primary door is to the right currently).

The way we have our table oriented currently, we don't have 60", but we could turn it lengthwise.

Just checking out the opposite way ...

Think it offends my sensibility of symmetry.

Lisa, I really like your idea above - OP can still look out the window at the sink, but it puts all the "heavy stuff" on the solid wall.

steph-
"I'm not sure I see the advantage of having all the work space squished together. There are usually at least two of us doing stuff in there. Is it just to get the sink near the range?"

Not just that. I'm not convinced your kitchen is wide enough for a galley kitchen PLUS an island. And that leaves you with a "bowling lane" on either side of the island - at least that's how I'm visualizing it. The island is short and narrow and I'm worried it could look like an afterthought. Your work zones don't relate very well together because of how far the main zones are from one another on opposite walls, and interrupted by the island. If you break the "kitchen work triangle" guidelines, it needs to be carefully thought out. You have the additional (nice to have!) problem of only having one unobstructed wall so that does create challenges for classic layouts.

By doing one wall and a chunky island, you end up with a galley kitchen (classic design). Also you end up with a defined traffic area (along window in Lisa's design) and work area (between island and range wall). If you have lots of chefs, there's nothing stopping someone from prepping on the window side of the island either.

This post was edited by feisty68 on Fri, Apr 4, 14 at 21:07

I did not mean fridge, main sink, and range on one wall.

I personally would have the range and the main sink or at least the prep sink on one wall. Then the fridge and maybe a sink on the other. Island with no appliances.

Personally, I don't like designs where the three primary working zones are crammed into a small space - especially when more than one person will be in the Kitchen at the same time.

Also personally, I don't like designs where the DW is in the middle of the Prep Zone or opens into the Prep or Cooking Zones - especially when it opens into the back legs of someone working at the range! One misstep backward and you spill boiling water all over you!

I may have missed it, but what is the size of the DR? Measure from the end of the counter on the sink run to the far wall in the DR and then left wall to right wall (or where you want it to end). That will give us an idea of what will/will not fit both for an island and a peninsula.

Is that "Dining" area below the counters the only Dining Room you have?

Are you measuring your aisles counter edge-to-counter edge or cabinet-to-cabinet? Counters are usually 25.5" deep - they overhang the cabinets by 1.5". On the island, it would be 1.5" on each side. If you are measuring cabinet-to-cabinet, then your aisles are 3" narrower than you show - they're 39" - a bit tight for a, possibly, busy aisle to the outside (via the French Doors).

As to your DR - keep in mind that you need at least 33" of space around the table for chairs - and that's if there's no other traffic going around the table and behind the chairs. Then, as Lisa_a pointed out, you need "extra" space b/w the island (or peninsula) and the DR table for traffic to pass between. If there's seating at just one place (table or island/peninsula, but not both), then 54" is probably enough. If, however, there is seating at both, then 60" is needed to accommodate someone sitting in both places at the same time and still have room for someone to pass b/w them.

Think about how you use your space. Both an island and a peninsula have pros & cons. What is the traffic flow? Do you use the French Doors a lot?

A peninsula can create a protected area - directing traffic away from the most used and most "dangerous" zones - the Prep + Cooking Zones (dealing with knives, heat, grease/oil, flame if gas, etc.), preferably. Of all zones, the Cooking Zone is the one that should be most protected. If you have room in the DR, it's the only way to get multiple seats in the kitchen (seating at the back of the peninsula). But, some people feel trapped by a peninsula - if it's designed right, though, it doesn't have to "trap" you.

An island will open your space up and a 24" sink base is big enough to house a prep sink that is big enough to do just about anything you can think of - including draining pasta, filling pots, washing/rinsing veggies & fruit, washing hands, etc. But, traffic will flow past on all sides with no real way to protect your Cooking and Prep Zones. You can probably fit one seat at the "bottom" of the island if you'd like a seat in the Kitchen.

That's it for now (it's late here on the east coast).

Here is a link that might be useful: FAQ: How do I ask for Layout Help and what information should I include?

Forgot to mention, if you have a counter-depth refrigerator, then the doors must stick out past all obstructions (cabinets, walls, counters) on the hinge side(s) so the door(s) can fully open. When adding in the handles, most counter-depth refrigerators are more like 30" deep and stick 4" to 6" further into the aisle than the counters...so that also reduces your aisle in front of the refrigerator.

Thanks buehl! Lots of great thoughts.

Let me give more context to the kitchen. This is a 1947 bungalow on a narrow deep lot (rear detached garage) so the kitchen is really the main way to the back yard. The only other entrance to the back is through the Master Bedroom. We typically use the right door of the French doors and only open both if there is a party.

We do like to entertain and we often end up with everyone (last night 6 adults) clustered around our small island in the kitchen. Kids running back and forth out into the back yard.

The dining table is our only table. We eat breakfast there as a family every morning and dinner most nights. We also do our homework there, work from home there, etc. Really the center of our home.

This shows the current house layout:

And a picture:

Husband is really liking the idea of the chunky island. Working on some mock ups. Plus is that we would open the wall up the full 13.5 feet then and make it quite a bit more open.

Our goals are to open the kitchen to the rest of the house, gain uninterrupted counter space (without the low uppers -> are current ones are longer than standard added to the closed off feeling of the counter), and just make an aesthetically pleasing and above all functional space!

So here are 4 more ideas for you to mull over. I didn't put in what goes where because I don't know exactly what you need to store. My goals with all of them was to create a division between the kitchen work zone and a traffic aisle to the French doors that does not cut through the kitchen work areas. Given how busy this path is, that is a plus, IMO.

The first 3 plans are galley style lay-outs, the 4th plan is a peninsula plan.

Plan B increases the work aisle from 42" to 48" to accommodate 2 cooks more easily. You can work on each side of the range, plus at the island. I moved the seating to the long size, adding an additional seat at the island (the island overhang is a generous 18"). The wine fridge faces the DR.

I made changes to the French doors, shifting them to the left, lining up with the aisle behind the island better. I also added a new window to its right to make that a large window wall.

Plan C is basically a reverse image of Plan B. I added windows on each side of the range to create a more open feel.

Plan C-1 has only one change. I moved the wine fridge to be recessed into the pantry wall. This allowed me to replace its spot in the island with a cab.

One plus with Plans C and C-1 is that the path from the main part of the home to the backyard is more direct. Another plus is that the kitchen is closer to the DR; fewer steps to set the table, set food out and clear the table.

There are pros and cons to the island/pantry configuration. The island acts as a barrier island - it's between pantry and kitchen area - but it also serves as a landing zone for pantry items, something your initial plan lacks.

Lastly, Plan D, a peninsula lay-out.

This gives you two work zones: a clean-up area on the fridge/pantry side and a cooking area on the range side. I did not put an island in the middle. Given how much traffic you have through your kitchen, I decided it would be a detriment, plus I don't think it's needed now that there's a prep sink near the range.

Despite the peninsula, I think it will still seem open. I understand your goals - create a more open space that seems a part of the rest of the house - but be careful not to go overboard in pursuit of that goal. It's hard to visualize what you'll have when you have a wall and upper cabs between kitchen and DR right now. I speak from experience. The rental home my hubby and I lived in before our first house was dark and dreary so when I began to choose finishes, I went white for everything: white counters, white appliances, white walls, white floors. I could have accomplished my goals with a bit less white and my home would have been a bit less stark and my kitchen wouldn't have looked dirty 30 seconds after I cleaned it (white shows everything).

Is a wine fridge a "must have" or a "would be nice to have" item? I seriously thought about adding one to our kitchen when we remodel but then decided that storing the wine on shelves in our pantry would be sufficient since it's dark and generally cool. We also don't store wine for that long either. ;-) If you are serious wine connoisseurs and have some expensive bottles, then perhaps it's a wise purchase and use of kitchen space.

However, if you're okay with giving up this item, put the MW drawer where I show the wine fridge in Plan D. That places the MW close to both range and fridge.

Oh, I forgot to say that with the prep sink where it is in Plan D, it can also serve as a bar sink when you entertain.

Are you tall? I ask because pushing uppers up farther makes all but the lowest shelf hard to reach for most people. Another way to make uppers seem less oppressive is to make your counters 3" to 6" deeper, something you could do in my Plan D. You could make the counters on the range wall deeper by 3" in Plans B, C and C-1 and reduce the aisle between range wall and island by 3". You could add a shallow shelf across the wall as swfr did in her kitchen (see link below).

Here is a link that might be useful: Kitchen reveal!! White/cherry with caesarstone

I like the peninsula plan! If you need some 'landing' space, you can always use a mobile cart with a butcher block top. Just a quick add on to Lisa's very nice plan :)
{{gwi:1808042}}From Kitchen plans

Of all I've seen so far, I like the general layout of the latest peninsula plan the best - but I would move the DW to the other side of the sink b/c the OP said they use the right door a lot and the current location of the DW will block that doorway. IF the OP can re-train his/her family to use the left door, the DW location may work - but they will need solid filler b/w the wall and DW b/c DWs usually need something to be attached to on each side.

I would also consider moving the MW drawer. I think it's current location will draw people into the working area of the kitchen - and it's pretty far away from the refrigerator (where most MW'd food comes from) and a water source (most MW'd food needs water added to it).

So, working off of Lisa_a's layout, this is what I came up with. It leaves the DW on the left, but adds a cabinet b/w the DW and wall for cutting board or other storage in a 13" wide cabinet (or 12" if you cannot have/get a 13"). Also note the upper cab to the right of the sink. If the hinges are on the right, then you will need filler b/w the refrigerator and the cabinet to allow the cabinet door to open fully. If the hinges are on the left, then you won't need filler and can have the full 24" of space for cabinets.

The counter along the sink run is 3" deeper than normal (it's 28.5"D). This gives you more room behind the sink for the faucet, etc. It also allows you to have deeper cabinets on that wall - 27"D base cabinets & 15"D upper cabinets. If you cannot get 27"D base cabinets (or don't want them), then pull the base cabinets out from the wall about 3". Those extra 3" in the upper cabinets can be priceless - if you have wider dinner plates they will fit better; they will fit an extra row of glasses as well!

The 30" plate rack above the sink is only 12"D and mounted 24" to 30" above the sink so there's more "face" room. With the deeper counters and the plate rack mounted higher, it gives you more breathing space when standing in front of the sink.

The range wall has no upper cabinets and two 36" wide windows. I recommend these windows go the counter, if possible. With six feet of windows and no upper cabs, this kitchen will be very open as well as light and airy.

Since you already have a tall appliance on the right (the refrigerator), adding upper cabs on that same wall will not take away from the light and airy feeling - especially since they're not as deep as the refrigerator. Note that the refrigerator will also hide any dirty dishes from the Great Room and will make them less noticeable from the DR.

To compensate for the loss of storage with no uppers on the left, I added 5' (60") of 12"D cabinets on the back of the peninsula. Those cabinets will hold a lot! (12" is pretty useful - deep enough for small appliances, food, etc. without being so deep things get lost in the cabinets. And, b/c they're only 12" deep, you can have stationary - but adjustable - shelves. No loss of storage due to drawer/ROTS glides & boxes.)

An added advantage to the additional cabinets is that it adds 12" of depth for workspace - very useful! On the peninsula alone, you have over 14 sq ft (over 2047 sq in) of workspace - not counting the space next to and behind the prep sink.

Seating at the peninsula...I did not put seating at the peninsula b/c the DR is so close, you didn't ask for it, and it allows you a bit more workspace along the wall. If you add seats, you need another 3" or so of overhang and you need to take at least a foot off the kitchen, probably more, to have enough room for seating in both places. Your DR does not appear overly large.

Now for functionality!

You have plenty of prep space for 2, 3, or more people to be working in the kitchen at the same time. In addition, since the Cleanup Zone is separated from the Prep & Cooking Zones, you can have someone cleaning up while others are prepping/cooking - and no one will get in the way! B/c of the prep sink, the Primary Prep Zone (b/w the prep sink and range) is also nicely set up for one person working as well.

Both the Refrigerator and the MW are on the periphery and out of the Prep & Cooking Zones - so someone looking for a snack won't be in the way of others working in the kitchen. In addition, the MW is near both the refrigerator and a water source (cleanup/main sink). They are, however, close enough to the Prep & Cooking Zones for easy access when needed.

The trash pullout is in the Primary Prep Zone and next to the prep sink - but not far from the range/Cooking Zone. The most trash & recyclables are generated while prepping and cooking and for an extended period of time (much more so on both counts than while cleaning up). For the Cleanup Zone, you could put a trash can under the sink (while I don't like trash under the sink, I've come to realize that I am in the minority - most people on the Forum have no problem with them.) Other options:

(1) Move the Pantry door to the "bottom " wall and use the current Pantry opening for additional cabs & counters, including a 12" (1-bin) or 18" (2-bin) trash pullout

(2) Use the 13" cabinet as a single-bin trash pullout.

{{gwi:1808043}}

With Zones...

(fixed the Zones pic!)

This post was edited by buehl on Sun, Apr 6, 14 at 18:41

Meant to add....you could change the French Doors to a sliding door - with the opening on the left - problem solved! :-)

Nice modifications, Buehl.

btw, the OP wrote that they could turn the DR table 90 degrees to provide enough room for peninsula seating. That said, I agree with you: with the table that close to the kitchen, it's not necessary to add peninsula or island seating.

I just wanted to say that my layout is very similar to the peninsula plan that Lisa created and Beuhl modified. I have found it to work extremely well for my family. We do not have seating at the peninsula (you'll see an elevated bar in a portion, but we do not have stools there) and do have a dining table is the same location relative to the peninsula in the plans above. We do not miss the seating at the peninsula, the kids hang out at the table.

I'll link to my finished kitchen reveal so you can see how it looks. I'm sorry I don't have a picture looking from the kitchen to the dining area. I think when I did my photos that that area was not yet completed, and I never got around to it. But it does not feel closed off to us at all.

Here is a link that might be useful: Controlfreakecs finished kitchen

On the other hand, I am getting rid of a peninsula that stands between my dining area and kitchen. I think this depends on how you cook, who hangs around, and how you serve meals. My peninsula is too high to comfortably serve as a buffet. I like to serve meals that way, so even if I kept the peninsula, I would prefer it counter height. Guests tend to stand around the current peninsula while I cook, which is nice, but I think they would sit at the dining table if the tall bar weren't between it and the kitchen.

I think your original plan has potential with some tinkering. The prep sink would have to be of good size, as several had mentioned. But my current 50-50 split sink is only 13" x 15" on each side and I drain pasta in it all the time. (Looking forward to a bigger sink for cleanup.)

I would move the dishwasher to the other side of the cleanup sink to facilitate unloading. I would also consider dropping the cabinet closest to the dining room down to counter height-- like a hutch. That way, you could unload all your daily dishes into the hutch and set the table easily from the hutch. The hutch would also provide just a bit of a visual barrier for hiding dirty dishes at the sink--if you sometimes have those. :). Of course the hutch depends on the overall style of your kitchen. (Unloading the dishwasher is a chore I dislike, so having the dishes across the room would bother me. I also understand you do not want dishes stored directly above the DW--too hard to reach into that cabinet when the DW door is open.)

I like the peninsula and large island plans as well. Just throwing out a few thoughts if you are still loving the fully open kitchen idea.

Here's an idea similar to Lisa_a's island. While I did work this up, I still think the peninsula plan is much more functional for the way your kitchen is used - including as the #1 path to the backyard. An island blocks the door and forces the traffic to stream around it - into a work area if you have work zones on both sides of the kitchen or hopefully around the back if you don't have a work zone on the right wall. Regardless, traffic will need to go around the island - and even with the work zones only on the left, there is a strong possibility traffic will go to the left if people are seated at the island.

The peninsula design is also much more open and airy and it's an easy shot to the backyard without traffic having to stray into the Prep & Cooking Zones or even much into the Cleanup Zone. No island in the way so straight back!

Here it is....

The biggest negative is that the island is a "barrier island" b/w both the Prep and Cooking Zones and the Refrigerator.

One of things I was trying to avoid is having the DW open into the Prep or Cooking Zone - I was especially trying to avoid it opening in front of the range - a big issue to me unless you have a 51-inch or wider aisle b/w the range and counter with the DW.

The prep sink is optional, but it does open up the island for use as the primary (or maybe secondary, depending on your preference) Prep Zone. Even with the prep sink, you have 75" of workspace to the right of the sink and 13" or so of landing space to the left of the sink.

The window is 5' wide and most of the work space b/w the sink and range is in front of the window - a nice perk for someone prepping there! The sink is still in front of the window, but aligned to the left so the window can be maximized and still have room for a decent size upper cabinet above the DW. Other dish storage is in the island or in the perimeter cabinets b/w the range and sink.

Zones: