Love the swap out. But, are you sure you have enough room for the table on the left side? What about switching to a banquette type table/seating setup?

I don't think you have enough room for traffic and seating in the aisle behind the island. Can you open the wall of the family room to have more open space behind the island?

I agree with Montana800 that it's too tight around the table, and the plan might work if you could go to a banquette built in an L on the office and powder room walls, but the doorway to the office would have to move toward the backyard wall.

In our last house we had 30" between the table and wall on the back...It worked just great, but there weren't doorways people needed to get to back there.

montana and rhome, I forgot to mention that the standard doorway going into the office will probably be removed and instead we will make a wider entry way. Is that what you were talking about? There will be 32 inches from table to wall. Also I do not know what you mean by banquet type table? I also wondered if it would make more sense to do a built-in bench on the side with the wall?

I have thought about opening the family room wall. So if we do not remove the wall, then we should removed the seating? I think we would like to have the seating.

A banquette is a built in bench, so you were thinking along the same lines.

I agree that the traffic might be a little tight around the island, and also that it looks a bit close to the counter with the refrigerator and dishwasher.

Do you really need dedicated seating along the whole island when there is a table adjacent? Look at making the island have a function other than just seating, and make it a bit smaller, perhaps. You have seating for nine in the kitchen for a family of five--try an island with a seat or two and another function besides.

Thanks for the advice thus far.... The island will be the main prep area so we may be able to make it a little smaller and reduce the seating. Does anyone have any comments on the placement of Range, sink, DW, and fridge? Do you think island is better than a pennisula which would make it a U?? We are meeting with the custom cabinet rep on Friday.

Mark64, I am certainly no expert and there are others here who are absolute geniuses about layouts. But I wanted to play with yours (mine is set in stone, so it is painful to second guess my own choices, hope you don't mind).

I have redrawn your plan with a few new ideas.

I think you can gain some really valuable storage in your mudroom by ditching the current W/D closet. You can put front loader machines under a countertop and mount cabinets above and to the side. This could be a great place for pantry storage. Perhaps you already have that room fully utilized and just didn't include that info in your OP, but I thought I'd take a stab at that.

I put in a banquette plan and revised the opening to the office. I also moved the island out from the sink run to give you 3.5' of wiggle room, which should allow more than one person to cook/prep/clean. This meant taking the seating off the island and removing one of the pantry cabinets on the family room side.

In terms of work zones, I think if you can scootch that sink a little more towards the breakfast table you can separate the cleaning and cooking zones. Since you're putting a window where a wide sliding glass door was previously, perhaps you can put the sink window as far to the "left" as possible.

The fridge and the stove are pretty far apart. This means that the cook will have to pull ingredients out of the fridge, prep on the island and then move the whole operation to the stove. I don't have any bright ideas about how to fix this, tho. One option would be to move the family room door to the left and put the fridge next to the pantry cabinet on that wall. But that will interfere with the traffic in/out of the mudroom, and probably make things unpleasant right there at the family room/kitchen intersection.

I hope my comments have been helpful. I think you're going to have fun with this reno!

Can you borrow a foot or so from the family room to recess some cabinetry and the frig? I imagine the frig closer to the mudroom so that you don't have to walk around the island to get to it.

What software do you use for layout? I'm into a kitchen remodel and this would be very helpful. I'm technical but something with a short learning curve would be great. The above output looks good ... then I could post my ideas :)
Thanks

I created these in Microsoft Visio. I am not sure if it is the best tool, but it was pretty easy to use. They had a template for a kitchen layouts. I also already had it since I use it for my job some.

I am creating an alternate layout with a pennisula instead of an island and will post shortly to get everyone's opinion.

Thanks again to those on this forum that are a heck of a lot smarter than me when it comes to kitchen layouts. I appreciate your comments

Mark64- here's another version, this one moves the mudroom entrance to the kitchen and I'd suggest a pocket door. The fridge moves closer to the cooktop, but there's still a traffic congestion problem. It would be good to have the fridge on the family room wall if you could steal some room like houseful suggested.

and with this plan, I think you could put a microwave on the countertop closer to the banquette and then get a more effective vent hood over your cooktop.

So in thinking about the fridge placement, here's another option:

but I think the distance from the sink wall to the fridge is kind of large. There's really not enough space for an island (assuming a 3.5' aisle way and a 2' island minimum, you'd need 13' across the whole kitchen and it looks like you have about 10.5') so I put in a little U. So if you consider moving the family room wall about 3', you can have an island in my version 3.

Since I am new, let me know if this should be in a new thread, but for now I will keep adding.

karen, I do need to clarify one thing, on the layout the room marked as office is not used as an office today. Its more of a kids game room. Thus on our current layout on the wall opposite the Washer/Dryer Closet we have a desk. Thus I am not sure about moving washer/dryer, I would have to think about it. Plus as you know, the more we talk the more the scope and cost increases :)

I am posting two new layouts one with island and one with pennisula. Option 1 has a smaller island with no seating. Option 2, the one with a pennisula, has the Fridge and Range closer together. On that option I am not sure what we would do yet with the open wall. It seems like a lot of wasted space in the center. I feel like I need to decide island or pennisula. Anyone have an opinion?
Option 1(island)

Mark64, I like your peninsula option. I think it's a pretty tight squeeze tho when going between the peninsula and the banquette - I think you should plan for 42" of clearance there and get rid of the overhang. Your kids can do their work at the banquette.

I totally understand your issue with expanding the scope of your job.

One thing you can do with that blank wall is hang 12" deep wall cabinets from floor to ceiling. You might even consider having an opening between so that you can have a shallow countertop there. We did this in an earlier kitchen and it was very useful storage space. It might mean squeezing your aisle space down just a bit.

Another idea is to make this wall your place for posting school projects, etc. Paint it with magnetic primer, cover it with blackboard paint, and now you've got a place to hang stuff and write notes. We're going to do this with the back of a 6' wide door in our family room.

Mark64, just a couple of thoughts from my perspective.

Have you looked at the possibility of keeping your setup with a few tweaks? Since you said the scope of the project seems to be getting bigger, just thought I'd ask. I can see some potential layouts in keeping the kitchen on the left side. We went through as many layouts as we could think of with what we had and finally decided that some major elements just needed to be moved, so I totally understand if you've already been through that process and ruled that out.

If it is definitely going to be switched, I'm glad you have made a clearer path to the sliders. Prior to our renovation, we had a table that obstructed both the back door and the entrance to our office area which is in a similar location to yours. That was my very first thought when I looked at your layout above. We always had to weave and squeeze our way to either doorway and I strongly recommend against that whenever possible, only our path was mostly obstructed by a piece of furniture, not a wall (but I only realized when we were in demo that I could have moved the hoosier and had a clearer path; you wouldn't have that option with that space).

As to your two latest layouts, I like a combination of the two, with the placement of sink/stove/fridge of the second combined with the island in the first. IOW, no peninsula, definitely no corner upper, maybe no upper at all unless you absolutely need the storage; stove to left of sink, sink under window, and fridge around the corner of the L. OR, sink on left with expanded windows to go over sink and DW both, stove on right, and fridge around the corner. I think it would be frustrating to have the fridge or anything else (like an upper cabinet) between you and the slider when you are working at the sink or stove.

Mine is not exactly like yours because it's more open, no walls behind the island, but it's similar enough to give you an idea. I'll try to get a picture that shows all those elements together, including the door and windows.

The peninsula crowds the table and path to the back door too much, IMO, and the stove and sink are too close together. I had a kitchen with stove and sink on the same wall, but wouldn't want them closer than 3 ft so that they each have their own counter space. This area in between would be the main prep area and needs to be wide enough to use.

I will have a prep sink in the island, so my cleanup sink will work where it is, but without a prep sink, you'll probably want the sink between the fridge and stove as you have it. The disadvantage is that puts the stove towards an end where traffic will be passing by. Per rhome's suggestion, without the peninsula you'd have more flexibility with the sink and stove.

Counters go in Monday so I'll get a picture then if you want it.

Mark64, I don't know if I'm missing something (don't have my glasses on) but it looks like your island is 2' wide in the layout but 3' wide in the 3D. I like the first layout but if it's really a 2' island, I think it would be better to widen it to at least 30" and give up the seating. Even if you keep it 2', it'll be a tight squeeze down that aisle if anyone is seated. There have been many threads in the past dealing with squeezing an island into an 11' space and the consensus is that it can't be done with seating. If you're just looking for a place for folks to congregate while you work, most don't mind standing around an island with a glass of wine keeping the cook company. Is the banquette the only dining table or do you have a dining room?

I think the mudroom desk would be more useful and comfortable if it were straight against the wall opposite the washer and dryer. You could use it as a landing space for folding laumdry as well. The corner option looks confining to me.

First...
Is your kitchen width (exterior wall-to-FR wall) approx 11'2"?
Do any of these measurements include counter overhang or are they cabinet-to-cabinet? There is usually approx a 1.5" overhang of countertop over cabinets (not seating overhang).

If your measurements are cabinet-to-cabinet, then the aisle b/w the sink & island is really only 3'4"...40". The aisle b/w the sink & island is going to be well-traveled (meaning busy!) b/c of the locations of the refrigerator, sink, and range relative to each other...with an open DW in the way as well. So, you really should have a 42" aisle there. (If the measurements are counter edge-to-counter edge, then you're OK.)

Island...Cheri127 is right, you have your island labeled 2'0"...is that correct? What about seating overhang? Counter overhang on the sink side? You need 15" for counter-height seating or 12" for bar-height seating + 1.5" overhang on the sink side of the island.

[Note: Skimping on seating overhang doesn't really buy you anything. People will still take up the same amount of room in the aisle even if you skimp on overhang...they'll just be uncomfortable while they do it!]

The aisle b/w the island and bottom wall is shown as 3'7" (43"), but with a 15" overhang added to the island you really only have a 28" aisle (43" - 15" = 28").

You need at least 32" if there's no traffic behind the seats (which means a "dead end" aisle). However, you do have traffic, so you need at least 44" (with no cabinets or counters behind the seats) for traffic to walk past anyone seated there.

If that wall can come down b/w the FR & Kitchen, then you'll be fine. However, it may very wall be load-bearing, which means it will not be cheap to take down. (If it isn't load-bearing, then it's pretty inexpensive to take down.)

The other issue is the pantry cabinets in that bottom right corner...you need enough room b/w the island & pantry cabinets for traffic to pass...at least 36", preferably 42".

About those pantry cabinets...a shallow built-in pantry will give you more storage and more accessible storage than 24" deep pantry cabinets...plus it will be less expensive. Install another wall and make the shelves 12" to 15" deep...make the overall pantry just deep enough to accommodate the shelves + 3" or so in front of them...just be sure you can access everything inside...bi-fold doors are great for that (so are double sliding doors, but I prefer bi-fold since you can access/see everything at once, not just half at a time). The shallower pantry will allow a deeper island while still allowing you sufficient aisle b/w the island & pantry.

Reality check here: To have a kitchen with an island plus seating, you need at least 12'8" of space to work with.

25.5" cab/counter + 42" aisle + 40.5" island + 44" aisle = 152" (12'8")

[40.5" aisle = 1.5" overhang + 24" cabinets " 15" seating overhang]

You have only approx 134"...18" less than you need.

My kitchen was 11'1" and we (me, KD, GWers) tried to fit an island (GWers, in particular, went to herculean efforts to fit one!)...but my kitchen just wasn't big enough to support it. As a matter of fact, it was stated that 11' kitchens may be the most difficult to work with b/c they're too narrow for an island (with seating) and too wide for a simple galley kitchen. I finally gave up the island in favor of a modified galley ("U" with short legs + cabinet run above the "U")...and it is WONDERFUL! My DH & I are so glad we didn't put in an island b/c there really wasn't any room!

In your case, you have kitchen seating so close, would you consider forgoing the island seating? If so, a narrow island will fit...

25.5" cab/counter + 42" aisle + 27" island + 39.5" aisle = 134"

If the pantry/pantry cabinets allow, you might even be able to do the following:

25.5" cab/counter + 42" aisle + 30" island + 36.5" aisle = 134"

Hi Mark64, I just replied to your email and offered a few suggestions (didn't realise that you have an active thread here!) I see that some of my suggestions have already been discussed here! Anyway, I do like the appliance layout of option 2, but take away the peninsula and add the island.

Sorry if I am bringing up something that's already been discussed here, you mentioned that you prefer wall oven, could you put in a M/W and wall oven where the pantry is? or if you do away with the peninsula in option 2, could you put the M/W and wall oven to the left of the stove?

Mark64...let me take a shot at it...

It looks like the following are the dimensions:

But, what are the measurements I have labeled as A, B, etc.? A: __________
B: __________
C: __________
D: __________
E: __________
F: __________
G: __________
H: __________
L: __________
J: __________
K: __________
L: __________

Thanks to all for their suggestions. buehl, I think you are correct that 11' kitchens are more difficult to work with. The original plan did have the island with seating that is why the 3D image had it on there. I think you may be right that we need to leave off the seating and go with either a 27" or 30" island w/o seating. How did your Fridge fit into the U? When looking at option 2 (short legs of U), we could not find good place for the range since it seemed there was only one good spot for the Fridge. The other thing restricting us was the window and having to put the sink there. I know I have seen your kitchen pictures before in other threads but now cannot find them. :) That is also a great idea to have the pantry built. I will check into that.

Your post came in two minutes before my last.
A=75"
B=93"
C=114.125"
D=42"
E=54.5"
F=80.25"
G=23.75"
H=47.75"
I=86.375
J=36.5" (educated guess, I am not home yet to measure.)
K=79.50"
L=100.875"

This is what we did....

Looking toward the DR:

Looking toward the FR:

Designs:

Cooktop wall:

Sink wall:

However, note that I do not have a door in the middle of the bottom wall like you do and that my window is in the middle of the wall. Our FR is off to the right and the DR/table area is off to the left. The Foyer doorway is on the bottom right of the kitchen, not the middle.

If you could move the door to the FR to the right it would help, but that will entail more $, probably quite a bit more if it's load-bearing...depending on labor costs in your area.

And we just cross posted!

Also this is the lastest design from Custom Cabinet rep. As discussed we will probably reduce island from 36 to 30 and remove seating. We also may or may not do banquet table. If we do not we will go with 36" inch instead of 42" table.

I know it's difficult to keep in mind and respond to everything that everyone has suggested but I thought it would be worth repeating. I encourage you to think carefully about having two doorways on the far side of the table in such a tight space. Mock it up in your current space and think through how your kids get to and from that doorway. A banquette would work better but if you do that, I'd also suggest not doing an L shaped bench, just a straight one along the 79 1/2" wall, and moving the doorway along the wall toward the back corner of the kitchen, or as you said before, expanding that doorway.

Our french doors were 83" from trim to trim, 20" from the corner; the door to the office was 37" from the back and about the same width as your doorway, and we had a 42" square table in that space with two children, at that time, accessing both doorways frequently. We were able to angle the table because we didn't have a wall toward the front and that helped a very little, but still had to zig zag to get to the other side of the table. I was also constantly pushing chairs under or moving them out of the way to get through. It was never something I got used to but always knew I'd want to fix when given the chance.

A 36" table may help some as well but still those chairs will rarely be pushed in perfectly to allow for good passage. I guess either way you have an expense, building the banquette or getting a new table.

I'm another newbie also looking for remodel plan comments, although we've already started the remodel work and can't make any changes, I'd love to see comments or get tips on how to make what we have work.

I though about posting in this thread, but guessed it would be better to create a new thread... it's here:

http://ths.gardenweb.com/forums/load/kitchbath/msg04124948449.html

I think you are limiting yourself too much by having to keep doors and windows in the same locations. What is the exterior of you*r hom*e?

bump