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Should counter veins all go in same direction on all counters?

Posted by threeapples (My Page) on
Thu, Apr 18, 13 at 13:39

I have Montclair Danby marble. Our island veins will go lengthwise and the sink wall has the same direction, but the range wall has the veins going front to back instead of left to right. Is this how its supposed to be done? Are we going about this the right way? Here is a pic from the fabricator indicating the vein direction. Thanks


Follow-Up Postings:

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RE: Should counter veins all go in same direction on all counters

Here is an image showing the sink cut out and how the veining relates to the directional change on the counter.


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RE: Should counter veins all go in same direction on all counters

Now I'm really starting to second-guess this. Any thoughts?


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Gorgeous marble! Since you have an L, I agree with the veins going front to back on the range wall, otherwise the corner will look funky.


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I think yes, they should all go the same directions (left to right on the long counter and front to back on the sink counter), but look at the drawing. The little piece of counter by itself on the right of the drawing, the veins run the same way on that counter as the other counters (good), but the island, the veins run the opposite direction. I'm sure it's all fine as is, but if I had a choice, I think i keep all the veins on all the surfaces running in the same direction.


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So if I did it all in the same direction the entire sink wall would be veins from front-to-back. That would not look odd considering the heavy veins in my marble?

This is so hard and I'm terrible at decisions like this. I guess I should make an appointment to go back and figure out out from scratch again.


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I know nothing about this through research, but to me, the veins should naturally follow the length of the counter. I also think it's odd and unnatural to have them matching the direction on the back wall, i.e, switch to front to back. ? Seems kind of choppy looking rather than elegant, like the stone is, imo.

This would seem a choice made to efficiently use the stone, rather than an aesthetic one. Maybe it has something to do with handling that corner. But I would not like the disruption of flow of the beautiful graining.

Pictures, pictures, pictures. Browse Houzz. See what you like.

This post was edited by snookums2 on Thu, Apr 18, 13 at 14:52


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I can't find pictures where you can see veining on both the island and counters well. How would we handle the corner if the range wall ran like the island and the sink wall ran perpendicular?


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lol, I see! Can't see the counters much.

I don't know if they miter cut corners in stone or not. Matching the grain would be difficult, I'd think. There are certainly enough installations here on GW that someone will know.

P.S. Looking around at seams, the few I can find do seem to flip the grain to match the seams.

This post was edited by snookums2 on Thu, Apr 18, 13 at 15:32


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RE: Should counter veins all go in same direction on all counters

Apples,

We just installed the identical Montclair Striato in our bathroom. Had the same issue, as there is a big "L" where two counter runs meet up. I was out of town, and they did it all one direction. (And were very proud of their efforts.) I had just "assumed" (you'd think we would learn...)they would do it perpendicular! Anyway, it grew on me after a few days, and now I'm so glad they did it that way. I'll post a pic after the painters clear out later.


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Oh, yes, and thinking about this further, my short L is slightly lower than the long run, (because it is a vanity for sitting) so it made sense to do perpendicular. But yours is all one flat surface, so the must miter that corner (and bookmatch the veins) or keep the veins all one direction. (front to back on your range wall.) You could end up needing another slab if they have to bookmatch slabs. Most marbles don't have such defined stripes, so this issue doesn't come up very often. (There are about three total pics of this stuff installed, as you well know!)


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Thanks, Shanghaimom. I'm waiting for a call back to see if they already started cutting. I'm rather nervous about making a mistake. It seems they should all run lengthwise along their walls instead of having any front- to-back, but the junction at the L is what concerns me.


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I agree with you--just realized your island is a part of the equation, too. It seems like it should be running same direction as range wall.


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How do we handle the change in direction on the seam then? Is there a trick?


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I think they have to miter the corner and match up stripes as well as possible.


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I think it should look as much like one big piece as possible, which means the grain will run all in one direction (side to side and front to back depending on the run, but all in one direction)


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Late to the table here, but I have illustrations of what you're talking about. This was Option 1 with the island/peninsula grain at 90 degrees to the L:

 photo View1.jpg

Option 2 with the grain of the island/peninsula parallel to the L:

 photo View2.jpg

This was a computer view of how our stone could be cut from our particular slab rather than a generic one. We chose 1, but you could make a case for either. Here it is in place.
Overview photo Granite13.jpg


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Suzanne, I'm a visual person so your photos were really helpful. Thanks so much!

I guess I feel like since the island vein direction cannot change then we need to work with that and change everything to work with it.

They used a white out marker to plan out the slabs. I sure hope that can be cleaned off!


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Just be aware that you may need an extra slab if you turn the island. That will increase the costs.


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Here you go. All running the same direction.
 photo DSC_0576_zps76778599.jpg


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I think on the L, because it is one continuous piece and will look best if it looks like it was all cut out as 1 solid piece, the grain should all run the same direction on that piece. The grain on the island does not have to run the same direction as the grain on the other sections of counter. Personally, I would run the grain lengthwise on the island and everywhere else except the range wall.

In my kitchen, there are no corners where cabinets intersect, just 2 separate perimeter runs plus a large island. The island and sink wall run east-west, and the range wall runs north-south, with the veins going lengthwise on all 3 sections.

Sochi's gorgeous kitchen has an L where the grain direction is maintained around the corner:


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I'm not sure why the picture didn't load, but here is the link to Sochi's kitchen:

Here is a link that might be useful: Sochi:


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Threeapples,

I think your fabricator has it right. It will look like the counters are all from one big slab. The seam in that corner, running along the stripes, will be invisible. It is going to be beautiful! (And the best part...scrubbable with Ajax! I love that.)


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3apples, could your fabricator mock up the grains with a program like Suzannes's? Your marble has such a predominant stripe that I think it is extremely important that you are clear about which look you prefer. Just his layout with ink scribbles is not enough to make such a monumental decision on.

My granite is cut out like option #2 which I find more pleasing to my eye (though my veining is very subtle). But you have to live with this very strong veining, and I wouldn't rush into a decision.


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I called and told them to wait. They don't use software to help with things like this so I'm going to have to figure it out with photobucket somehow. I agree that this step is very important.


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Ladies - That is some seriously beautiful stone.
Threeapples This is tuff You can make a case for it going in either direction depending on the actual piece of stone.
I do know I'm weird about seams and if staying in the same direction lessens the "seam" factor then that's what I'd go with. The stone had so much beauty in the linear that you will focus on that, but changing directions at a seam, and if that seam is a bit off would forever cause me to frown in a beautiful kitchen. That's just me.


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My husband had the brilliant idea for me to print out photos of my slabs, print them at the drugstore, and cut various versions to mock this up myself. I'm going to do that tomorrow.

I love the look of this stone when the veins are running from left to right. It's not a quiet stone at all, so running it front to back might look really choppy and strangely rhythmic. I'll post photos of my little project tomorrow evening. :)


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My husband had the brilliant idea for me to print out photos of my slabs, print them at the drugstore, and cut various versions to mock this up myself. I'm going to do that tomorrow.

I love the look of this stone when the veins are running from left to right. It's not a quiet stone at all, so running it front to back might look really choppy and strangely rhythmic. I'll post photos of my little project tomorrow evening. :)


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The great thing about Sochi's kitchen though is that s/he has that very long run where the veins go horizontally and only a short run where they are vertical. For me it'd be the opposite it seems because I have to go with what the island dictates.


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I had a question about how to handle the corners with linear veining and got some good responses in this thread.

Here is a link that might be useful: White Macabus. How did you handle the 90 degree corners?


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how'd you end up doing it, island?
the image of sochi's kitchen with the corner is not on the thread anymore. how did sochi deal with it?


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That's such a strong pattern, I think it needs to flow, be able to breathe, run free (lol). I wonder what was done in the old days before people were so "organized" about things.

I did find a picture of Pirula's heavenly kitchen. It's a cherry counter but does have pronounced grain which was run lengthwise on both legs. I wonder if a more quiet part is in the corner if yours would work to run it lengthwise. They did not seem to worry about that here and it still looks beautiful.

She has linked her album in another thread, so here it is again. I think it looks fine and more natural this way.


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Wow, that's a beautiful kitchen. I see what you mean about letting the pattern "breathe" and now I'm really torn.


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I agree that you'll need to determine what looks best to your eye on the island and go from there. BTW, I have seen one kitchen with a highly directional quartzite (blue, though) where they opted to put a piece of butcher block in the corner in order to avoid having to make the decision you are trying to make. Then all the "stripes" went parallel to the walls, i.e. lengthwise. Sorry, I never took a photo.


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One thing we have going for us regarding the seam at the L is that there will be a "hutch" resting on the counter at the end of the range wall run. It won't be deep enough to cover the whole counter, but it will cover a portion. Actually, now that I think of this the hutch may draw attention to that area so I will have to be extra diligent in how we handle that seam.


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Yeah for DH, that IS a brilliant idea. Though granite in particular, is so hard to capture in a photo. That is one element where the depth and beauty and the whole appeal of the stone is nearly impossible to translate into 2D. Mocking up will hopefully help you come up with a final decision. Of course in real life, with hutch, and appliances and daily debris (bread, food, papers, etc,), you won't be concentrating so much on this one detail, and I find photos can exaggerate things like veining when in person, the stone has more to offer than just the veining.

Can hardly wait to see the mock-ups!


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IMHO I would never put a seam in the corner with the range side also running L-R and butting up against the long side (running L-R). I would most definitely leave that set up exactly the same as the fabricator has it. I think making both counters run L-R would make that corner look choppy and horrible. After looking at Suzanne's pictures, the island running the opposite direction is not nearly as bad as I thought it would be. After seeing that, I would leave it as the fabricator has it set up. Your stone looks very much like my statuary marble. It's very beautiful!


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The other thing that bothers me is that all counters will seemingly be different. The way I perceive it, the range wall doesn't really look like the sink wall because the grain is so short. I find it disconcerting to be cut short. Maybe it would not feel that way in real life.

Did you see island's link? Olyrider is a fabricator and says he butts or miters. Now, maybe he would handle something with this much vein contrast differently. Maybe he has some pictures.

I hate these type of decisions! But you are lucky you are preparing yourself and thinking it through. Coming home to find something you didn't expect or anticipate is much worse, lol.

Maybe they have some other customers where you could arrange to see the proposed installation. Sometimes companies have them as referrals for their work. I'd also like to find photos of old kitchens with marble counters, to see what they did in the past. They have an unfitted charm that's beautiful in itself.


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Beacause we have the same stone, zooming closer for another try. Put your finger over the screen where the counter height changes, and you can see exactly what your corner and adjoining counter would look like.  photo DSC_0583_zps7948256a.jpg


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Thanks, everyone.

Yep, I have a really tough time with this kind of decision as well, but I'm so glad I thought to think it through before letting them begin cutting. My photos will be ready at the drugstore shortly and I'll make my little mock up this evening and post photos. I see all of your differing points as having equal merit! I LOVE the look of unfitted kitchens and, had I to do mine over again, I'd make it look even less "fitted" because that's what makes best sense with our house.

Great idea to look up photos of old kitchens....I'm off to do that now.

Thanks, everyone, for your comments and helpful photos.


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Regarding the island - I like what Suzannesl did - I think her choice was the best choice. I like the island running perpendicular to the counter veins - the island stands out in a good way. her Option 2 looks boring and everything just runs together with nothing special.


"The great thing about Sochi's kitchen...that very long run where the veins go horizontally and only a short run where they are vertical. For me it'd be the opposite..."

If you look at the drawing in the original post, the bottom leg of the "L" that has the vein running front-to-back is broken up by that very large range area. So, the front-to-back areas are actually small compared to the large expanse of left-to-right on the left leg of the "L".

Add to that the left-to-right piece on the far right, and I think your fabricator's design is the best. - My personal opinion, of course!


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I didn't have time to read all the responses. My kitchen is similar in shape, a U with an island...... someday.
My photos show that the sink wall (widest expanse) are side to side, no seam in the corner, which leaves my smaller counters on either side of range front to back.
Counter left of the range, front to back, and if I use a stone on my island, it will run side to side lengthwise. I haven't had my coffee yet so I hope this makes sense. If my words don't convey, here's photos.

corner photo get-attachment_zps438cc6ad.jpeg

widow view photo DSC_0043.jpg

 photo Range.jpg

full kitchen photo DSC_0449.jpg


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I agree that the island looks best running perpendicular to the sink wall for interest (and the veins running its length). It's too uniform and unnatural to have everything the same.

This post was edited by snookums2 on Fri, Apr 19, 13 at 13:32


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Gigi, your stone is beautiful.

Thanks for the extra responses. I can't find good photos of darkly veined counters in antique kitchens, but will keep looking.


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Alright, excuse the kindergarten craft project quality of this--I did it in a hurry.

Here are several options I came up with:

 photo A7180A9E_zps9905b0b4.jpg

 photo B1079AFB_zps7a7e8919.jpg

 photo 51C63630_zps8b876843.jpg

 photo 0BBEAD6A_zpsf5dfd470.jpg

 photo BF1B8351_zpsd142ba91.jpg

 photo 1B64F311_zpsad9b1025.jpg

I ignored the small counter on the other side of the room since that is going inside a cabinet.


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Are those the actual pieces that would lay out?


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I think so.

I drew on the kitchen an image for all three options. Here they are:

This post was edited by threeapples on Fri, Apr 19, 13 at 15:26


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Another one

This post was edited by threeapples on Fri, Apr 19, 13 at 15:27


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For what it's worth, none of my layouts are helping me decide!

 photo 3B7571D4_zpsb88dd162.jpg

 photo BE0A8CF2_zps30938d0d.jpg

This post was edited by threeapples on Fri, Apr 19, 13 at 15:25


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With a hutch there, I think I'd miter it if you can get subtle enough graining there so it appears a decent enough match (not jarring differences). I like the first SECOND one in those last perspective drawings (looks mitered) where the veins flow parallel to the wall on both walls. I also like how the island grain flows nicely with the range grain rather than introducing a third layout.

There's another fabricator back in 2008 showing how he handles it (like oldryder does). So it doesn't seem to be "incorrect" to butt or miter. The type of grain certainly plays into it.

Here is a link that might be useful: Grain and L shaped counters

This post was edited by snookums2 on Fri, Apr 19, 13 at 16:05


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shanghaimom- Love the Striato! What color did you use on your cabinets? That is my decision of the week : )

Threeapples- what about you? What color are your cabs? Is your stone also linear (Striato)? Beautiful.

After seeing Gigi's stone, I am almost considering the fleuri cut Montclair....


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I like the fourth cutout picture. The one with the mitered corner. For me your perspective pictures, have the third one upside down. Can't tell what it looks like, but I like the second one better than the first.

I think the island should have veining lengthwise for sure, which I think you also have decided. If your guy can do the mitered corner as well as you have, that's the way I would go.


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Our cabinets are Farrow and Ball Light Blue. I'll check that link, thanks.


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i'm kinda liking #4 because your veining is so linear and that you have the cabinet partially covering the seam.
Can't wait to see your kitchen! It's going to be fabulous!


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Mis-voted and corrected my post!


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I really like this one if they can do it. It looks more planned and professional to me.


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I really like the 4th one as well. It has a better flow and if it's possible, I'd choose that one.


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I like the last cut out option best. If possible (depending on slab length) I think it would look best to have the corner seam on the range wall, rather than the sink wall, as it will be disguised better if it runs with the grain rather than cutting across it, plus the hutch will hide half of the seam that way.

The mitered option could also look cool, if the pattern can be matched as well as you show.


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Threeapples I haven't done anything yet. Just in the early stages of planning a remodel and only know I want white cabs and a whitish stone that isn't marble.Love it, but too afraid of the etching and staining. The Macabus is looking promising, but not sure I want something that linear. Will check out the crosscut.

Never seen Danbury in person; yours looks beautiful.
Gigi, what is your stone? Also love that and Shanghai's.


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RE: Should counter veins all go in same direction on all counters

Here is a photo I took this morning.


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Look what turned up on another search!


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Snookums is that picture you just posted a kitchen from someone on Garden Web? Would like to get some scoop from the owner!
That looks likeGreen Bamboo granite and I've been searching high and low for that for my BBQ island. A few years ago it was everywhere, but can't find it now. Not giving up though!


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Not GW. Someone on another thread mentioned it so I googled to see what it looked like. They'd said it wasn't around anymore.

There are a few views and the contact information here:

Here is a link that might be useful: Pacific Stoneworks


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Here's one supplier that still lists it. FL I did not look for others.

Very pretty stone.

Here is a link that might be useful: Green Bamboo

This post was edited by snookums2 on Mon, Apr 29, 13 at 9:56


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