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Please Help-Cambria Torquay Installation Disaster

Nicoleb1386
10 years ago

I am new here, but have been following for a while. A little background, my husband and I are both in our mid 20s and we purchased a fixer-upper 3 years ago. We are not those young people that wanted to rip out a perfectly good kitchen. We inherited all original counters and cabinets in this home dating back to 1961. My husband is skilled and has done many DIY projects, but we knew that kitchen counters were not something we would DIY, although we considered butcher block, we really wanted to save for something amazing. I, like many others have been dreaming of marble but for certain reasons we avoided (etching, etc…) so after lurking on this forum I began to fall in love with Cambria Torquay, and even more recently some of the new Caesarstones. We finally had enough money saved to pay for our new counters, and my husband will be building shaker doors which we will paint. The cabinet bones were solid, and like I said we are DIYers. The counters were at the end of life as everything I put on them was absorbed, think wonder bread logo etched in your blue star formica. It was bad.
3 years ago we had a kitchen company that we knew a few people to use come to our home to provide an estimate so we would have an idea how much Cambria Quartz would cost, so we would know how much to save. Fast forward to a month ago we got a quote for the 2 new Caesarstones and Cambria Torquay. Cambria came in at right around 100/ft. and was the cheapest albeit very expensive including a free sink. We shopped around and ended up going with the initial company that came to us 3 years ago.
Here’s where it gets gritty. He allows us to pick our free under mount sink, we had about 20 choices, and he recommended a 60/40 split. Sounds good to me, I know people with that style and since a farm sink would have been very costly it was a good option, being free. The Rep tells us we can go out to Home Depot or Lowes or wherever and choose ANY faucet we desire, but that it is imperative we have it with us when the templator comes out to template. So I knew the style I was going for and wanted a faucet that looked old fashion/French country and chose a lovely 3 stem faucet online, and we would also have a hot water spout. When the Fabricator called to set up the apt. to template we told them we were awaiting our faucet’s arrival, and we better set the apt. at least a week out since our Kitchen Rep told us the templator would need to see it.
The Fabricator Office Manager tells us that as long as we have a model number and it is nothing exotic, they can look it up and we don’t need to have it in person. Great, so we set the apt for that week. The Templator arrives and I immediately offer him the model number and information for our faucet and hot water spot, I had it brought up on my smart phone as I spoke. He said he did not need the information and explained to me that the installers would drill the holes on the spot and I could just tell them when they arrive how many holes I needed. I told him I would need 4 because my faucet would use 3, and my hot water spout would use 1. He reiterated that he did not need that information, and went into further detail about how easy it is for them to drill the holes, etc… He had also told me had been working for the company for 15 years, so I assumed he of all people would know, and I didn’t think again.
Yesterday. Oh boy, here we go. The installers admitted they forgot about my apt, and someone had to meet them on the side of the interstate to drop off our pieces. Fine, whatever, glad I called to ask for a window as to when to expect (we have a 2 year old and I wanted an idea). They rip out my formica and exclaim how horrible my old plumbing is and my husband better prepare to pay a plumber. They were already cursing under their breaths as they ripped out the sink.
Then they go to prepare to drill the holes and I present my faucet and hot water spout. They go outside, come back in 20 minutes later and call to me there is a problem. I can’t have my faucet with a 60/40 sink, it won’t line up centered, I can only have a one hole faucet. I started to get very upset this was my whole design plan, I didn’t want a one stem faucet. I will not go into the nitty gritty details, but they sat on my porch and chain smoked while I fought with my kitchen rep and the Fabricator Manager back and forth for 2 hours. Then my husband also called them from work, and this went around and around, and basically the 2 Men decided not to take responsibility and blame me, that I didn’t do my homework. I was FLABERGASTED. Never in my life had I been belittled like the way I was by these men. The installers told me to give up because their boss NEVER loses a fight. So now I have paid ½ upfront and my choice is they leave and I lose the other ½ and have no counters because they ruined my formica, or I install it and they offer my a free faucet for the confusion. I wanted to scream. My husband and I were at a loss, my two year old is starving and it’s 7 at night. We didn’t know what to do, so we let them install them.
Well apparently they measured something wrong and began to chisel away at my wall, which they claimed is normal, I don’t know is it? And in the process they must have chipped my new counters, because when they ran out the door and my counters were covered in dust and I went to clean them I saw the 2 tiny chips.

So Now I need help. If you made it this far, seriously you are a saint, and I really appreciate advice because as I said my husband and I are young and we don’t have anyone to go to. At this point our idea is to withhold the remaining 50 percent until they replace the counters or do something. They are ignoring our calls and emails at this point, and we have not been able to make contact. My husband saw their vehicles in the parking lot of the kitchen shop but decided not to go it because we wanted contact to be documented from here on out. I am scared if we withhold payment ($1700) they can put a lien on our house, but we can’t see paying for damaged and unwanted goods. Also the chips are not on the edges they are on the middle to back of the counters where they were removing my wall, and we got eased edges specifically because of what we read about chips, so I know this is not normal. Please Help, thank you in advance.
Please know I have signed nothing, and have documented pictures, and we have already submitted a letter to the Better Business Bureau. I did not sign off on the counters, and we have put a stop payment on our debit card in the event they decide to pull the remaining portion. Also since it is over $1700, we assume this would be a case for small claims court? Should I call Cambria? What do you do when your Middle Man lets you down?

Comments (111)

  • Nicoleb1386
    Original Author
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    If you can see the black rectangle I placed to indicate where the seam is you will see that everything to the right of the black is one piece and I can stick my hand down several places. Including the area under the outlet next to the sink, so it is not just one wall. It is only where that piece borders.

  • Nicoleb1386
    Original Author
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    The rest of the kitchen to the left of the sink and around to the stove has a variance of my fingernail to where I can't even get my nail in at all.

    So sorry I am not loading pics all at once but I am having a hard time figuring it out with Picasa.

  • MizLizzie
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I am so sorry for you, Nicole. That sounds scary. I am glad to hear Cambria is being responsive. My Cambria order is going on hold until this resolves. I think they are going to stand behind their product and installation process. I hope so.

    Regarding credit cards, if you wish the security of a card without the credit line, apply for one of American Express's many CHARGE cards. Now, a lot of small businesses won't take them because the fees are high. (That's where AmEx makes their money.) But most of the time, when a dispute arises, AmEx yanks the charge and makes the vendor prove they are owed the money. They have done this for me many, many times. You must pay the card in full at the end of the month, but it lifts your credit rating fast. They do offer some credit cards nowadays, so chose carefully if you go that route.

    Good luck to you.

  • Iowacommute
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Well it sounds like you have learned a couple of lessons. Please never open a door if you are uncomfortable. Call a relative, neighbor, or the police. The police will tell you 'when in doubt-call.'

    I tagged along a lot as a kid to my mom's work. She was a secretary at the police department in Violent Crimes and then Sex Crimes. I learned a lot from sitting with those detectives all day. Just because you are a young female you don't have to be nice and make yourself vulnerable especially with your young kiddo around.

    I have been following your saga, and it sounds like with Cambria on board things may get better. Good luck.

  • gr8daygw
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I'm so sorry sugar, I hope ya'll get it taken care of. It's upsetting when things like this happen. This too shall pass ~sending a little prayer for you and DH. : )

  • Nicoleb1386
    Original Author
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Oh thank you MizLizzie, I think if we ever decide to sign up for a card that type of AMEX would absolutely be the only way for us to go.

    I hope I don't discourage anyone from Cambria as a product, it is beautiful but I am having a hard time seeing the dream counter I have been waiting for amongst the mess I am in.

    I promise I will continue to update so everyone knows how Cambria follows through, and I did tell them that I was documenting all of this on a well know internet forum, and I shared several of your stories on how your fabrication and Cambria installations went in comparison to mine, so I know it is not what I should have expected.

    I also let them know that for me I considered a couple of Silestone and Zodiac choices because I would have the backing of HD or Lowes but ultimately I knew Cambria Torquay was for me but now I am starting to wish I would have gone with one of my lesser favorites because at least they would have been significantly less and I would have had more pressure from a big box store on this fabricator.

    I can't look back now, or at least yet. In my dream world I would have them come pull everything out and refund me my money and I could start all over again with someone else but I know that is not likely going to happen. I just can't even bear to have this man come in my home again after the way he treated me.

  • smiling
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    It is truly alarming that Cambria would certify someone so unprofessional, to the point of his losing control and swearing at you in raised voices in front of your child! We have to let these people into our homes, and Cambria has some responsibility to certify only those fabricators with whom it is SAFE to do business. I applaud you for handling yourself so well in such an awful situation. When you feel like it, I hope you'll consider posting online reviews of the KD, Contractors, Fabricators, and Cambria's final solutions. You can help others avoid them! Certainly Cambria just got crossed off my list until they show they can be better trusted with family safety!!

  • Nicoleb1386
    Original Author
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Thank you all and you all are right I should not have opened that door, and I knew better than that. I have learned so much from this whole experience. DIYing things involves alot of time on you tube, reading books, learning as you go and visiting hardware stores.

    We were really joking about how spoiled we would be by not having to do a project ourselves and how it would be "perfect" the first time ha!

  • williamsem
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    OT, but I have to say how much I LOVE your cabinet doors! The line detail is awesome, and I am currently having a serious love affair with teal/turquoise so that color is dreamy!

  • Nicoleb1386
    Original Author
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Aww thanks I have to say I have a love/hate relationship with the doors. Some days I love them since they are original, not sure if you can see the plaque below the sink but it says "Union Made" in our area of Florida. Pretty cool to me :) Unfortunately I have heard so many people come in my house that make polite, but joking like comments about how they could never live with all that blue, so I think over time I have become convinced they had to go. I always knew the counters were a gonner because of their porous nature after 60 years, but I will say in 60 years my Formica only had one chip :)

    I am about to load some pictures we took to try and give an idea about how uneven the counter is, and perhaps an expert can tell us if there is a better way to document the difference. There is no uniform overhang...

  • Nicoleb1386
    Original Author
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Picture of a clamp holding a pen, the clamp remains stationary and the pen will represent the variation. There is a 1/2 inch difference in the overhang from one end to the other.

    This end is near the corner close to the seam.

  • Nicoleb1386
    Original Author
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    This would be the other end...You can't really see in the photograph but the clamp is up right against the counter.

    We sent the photographs to Cambria tonight to add to our other photographs and documentation for our claim. Hopefully we will get some kind of response from them tomorrow, and I will update if and when I do.

  • realism
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    So someone is knocking at your door and you choose to ignore it for 10 minutes when you could have taken two seconds to look out the peephole? Sounds like the whole situation and your melodrama could have been easily avoided. Not saying the situation isn't how you described but there seems to be a bit of hyperbole here.

  • rollie
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Check it with a tape measure on the left side of the dishwasher. the right side of the dishwasher and the right end of the cabinets for variance. It is not all that uncommon for the corner filler (where you are measuring in the first picture) to not be properly placed on that vintage of cabinetry. I'm not saying thats what it is, but with that much variance, its hard to believe they couldve even fabricated it without haveing a red flag show up.

    Also, give me the actual measurement of the top itself at the two places you have shown in the last two pictures.

    Depending on what your choice of a backsplash was going to be. ( I couldnt tell from the previous posts.... BP?) whether you should be able to stick your fingers down the gap. Ive never had one that large, but... if you were using a 3cm Cambria backsplash, then that would easily cover the gap. Tile could, depending on how thick it was, but it would be doubtful that with Torquay you would be installing a thick clay tile, so Im saying without backfilling the wall, or adding 1/4" backerboard it wont cover..

  • Nicoleb1386
    Original Author
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Rollie

    I have taken some measurements...

    To the left of the dishwasher- 1.4in overhang
    To the right of the dishwasher-1.10in overhang
    End of the piece (left of fridge)-2.1in overhang

    In the picture you see here I have put up some Post-Its as a quick way to give a visual.

    Everwhere you see a yellow star the piece is pretty close to the wall (ie slight variance, BP will cover)

    Everywhere you see an orange star I can put my hand down, and as I described we don't think a BP will cover.

    The piece itself measures 87.5 inches x 25.5 inches.

    The two places with the hands before were to the left of the dishwasher (one end) and to the left of the fridge (other end).

    Both places are coming in at 25.5 inches deep for the piece itself.

  • Nicoleb1386
    Original Author
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Also I don't know if this gives a better visual of how "off it looks"

  • phiwwy
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Did they actually make a template with cardboard? If they did, it would have laid on your bases just how this piece does. I'm wondering if they just took a measurement....

  • realism
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I'm wondering whether the cabinets may have something to do with this. I mean they are over 50 years old. You say they are in good condition, but it doesn't mean they are completely straight. Not sure if I would have sprung for an expensive counter on such antiquated cabinets. As you said the house was a fixer upper so who knows how those cabinets were treated. Who knows how much longer they are going to last.

  • PRO
    Granite City Services
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    A good quality installation will have a max variation in overhang of 1/8" (+ or - a 1/16")

    the gaps back by the wall are unimportant if they are going to be covered by splash. if no splash the the 1/8" gap rule applies again.

    I'm pleased for you to hear Cambria is responding. Seems very likely they knew that had a partner that was incapable or unwilling to handlle customer issues properly.

  • mary614
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Oh wow I am sorry I really hope you can get this worked out.

    I too am a stay at home mom with 2 little ones, I have been known to not answer the door if I do not recognize the vehicle. If some one was still pounding on the door after 10 minutes not sure what I would do.

  • rollie
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Nicole

    converting your numbers

    Left of dishwasher 1.4= approx 1 7/16.

    Right of dishwasher 1.1 is slightly under 1 1/8 inches

    Assuming the front edge of the Cambria is straight..there is no way that there is a 3/8 inch difference in the Cambria edge in 24 inches of the dishwasher, nor would you want that. There is something going on with the face of the cabinets, for this section, like I mentioned before..

    one the right end, you have approx a 2 1/8 inch overhang there, correct?

    Most of the time, there are concessions made for actual conditions, where a template needs to "average out" the discrepancies. Yours certainly sounds like it is outside of the realm of what could have been done within averaging of conditions..

    Along with the proper clearances at walls, and overhangs, the seam has to match in the field, as it was fabricated in the shop. It looks to me like this is part of the problem, that in order for the seam to match up as fabricated, that they had to cut it into the wall on the right corner slightly, and pull it away from the wall on the far right, in order to make it come together. Does that sound feasible, as to what may have happened?

    If the seam did not match up and they had to make concessions, then, when the pieces of stone were pushed tight to both wals, it appears like the seam wouldve been open at the front, according to what you have described.I believe that the gappage that you have to the right of the sink, may be in your wall. I believe the gappage you have on the right piece, is a function of squaring the seam, and it is not within my tolerances... I dont know what tolerances the fabrication shop has.

    Was there ever a "square" measurement taken by your husband or the templaters, assuming that they are only going off measurements? (electronic tempating would have taken the square/out of square into consideration automatically)
    While your installers seem less than desireable, they probably have nothing to do with templating or fabricating. They probably are employees of the fabrication facility, and can only do their best with the fabricated product as they deliver it, and ultimately, its up to them how to make the proper adjustments to the fabricated pieces to fit within the tolerances of all the provided information. Often times, they do not know the reason why something doesnt fit, because they know nothing about the job, until they load it on the truck. All of the decisions have been made, prior , and they are not privy to that information, or how it was derived.
    I am not trying to protect them, and think they were wrong with their approach, both from the start, and particularly at the end.. What I have written, applies to every installer everywhere, no matter the product.. The installation can only be as good as the fabrication allows.


    How did they "template" your job? was it actual cutout pieces to go by? Did they use some sort of electrical/digital templating system, or was it simply a series of measurements? Am I correct in my understanding that your husband also took measurements? Was this required for this company, or just for his own records?

    Can you fill in the letters that you mean by "BP", just for clarification? I have an idea what you are meaning, but just need to clarify..

  • GreenDesigns
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    A large portion of the problem is the cabinets. I would never have chosen such an expensive and permanant counter for cabinets that have that many out of level issues. Despite your belief that they are in good condition, they aren't. They should have been replaced first.

  • Nicoleb1386
    Original Author
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Thanks everyone I am at work so I can't recheck the measurements now but they did template using pieces of wood, and the guy told me that he would be adding 1.5 inches (I believe it was 1.5) to accommodate for the Formica backsplash since he couldn't get up to the wall with his wood. There was no electronic device used.

    I agree with you that the installers could only work with what they have. I can't say much but I know that I heard them disagreeing as to which piece should go in first. I then heard the one remark to the other quietly There is no way this is "this off" I then came out of the playroom with my daughter I could kind of hear and see them. I asked what was wrong now, and they said nothing this is normal don't worry. I watched them fight with the piece for a long time, and the one guy was yelling at the other one that he was doing it wrong, and before I could say anything they called out not to be concerned, well I know how young men talk to each other so that's ok. But then they started cutting into my walls and finally got it in. Then the one couldn't get the seam to work and said it was his new machine, and again don't worry.

    They left and put a tube of calk on the counter, and said my husband could use that to fill in the gaps if he desired.

    As far as the remarks on the cabinets, I don't know what to say other than we could just be young kids who don't know anything and they could be uneven but as far as how long they will last I think they would last another 50 years and both the KD and the templator commented that
    nothing is made this strong anymore.

    I think our problem was we trusted the KD and if there was any problem and the counters wouldn't work we would have thought someone would have told us.

    Looks like we might be partially responsible for not doing our homework after all.

    If we would have went into HD and bought Formica off the shelf my husband would have probably figured this out, but we trusted the person we were paying to alert us to any issues, if there were any.

  • a2gemini
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I am so sorry about your situation. You must be so frustrated. They left you caulk to finish the job? Unless you planned this as a DIY - that is very strange...
    Hang in there and let us know what Cambria says..

    Ours went well and the seams are almost perfect. No gap, no chips...

    Love you cabinets and that you used the old cabinets - it probably made it harder but not impossible..

    FYI - We always pay off our credit cards each month - so have to plan what we buy - but our kitchen afforded me a few free trips to visit DM, so was worth it - the credit card companies aren't too impressed that we pay it off as they make $$ on those who don't (as you know)

  • rollie
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Whats done, is done. No sense piling on..

    I have installed Cambria (and other stones) over new cabinets that probably werent as structurally sound as these.

    I think this can be salvaged, if everyone comes together with a plan of attack. (and a different set of installers)

    If my suspicions are true, I'm thinking that both pieces have to go back to the fab shop for the seam to be square with the walls in order for this to all work out..

    Other than the potential of the left side DW filler not being in plane with the right side of the cabinet, I see no problems with the cabinetry involved. Not my taste, for sure, but, Im not living there, and I believe they will be changing out the fronts..

    This post was edited by rollie on Fri, Apr 12, 13 at 11:46

  • Nicoleb1386
    Original Author
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Yes we are changing out the fronts. I have done a lot of research on color undertones and whatnot, and we didn't want to paint before we got the counters in to see how different paints would look with the counters in our lighting.

    Might not be the order others would have done things in but I knew I wanted Torquay and I was flexible on paint, so it made sense for us.

    We just got a call from the KD and they are going to be sending out someone from a different company to review the situation next week! I will update accordingly.

    Thank you so much Rollie!

  • rollie
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Sounds like youre moving forward. Thats good, and its just a little bump in the road, that will soon be forgetten, if everyone works together to make it happen.

    Templating with plywood, or cardboard or anything else, when there are existing countertops in place is risky at best, primarily because you dont know how much fitting was to to the integral laminate backsplash to begin with. You kind of just have to have a "fudge factor" which is alot harder to deal with in stone, than laminate. Factor in the cost factor, and the fact that "Im paying X amount of dollars for this high priced countertop.... I want it perfect" isnt always able to be achieved, if you are handcuffed with a templating situation that doesnt allow accurate templating.

    Now, with that said, they couldve possibly done a better, more accurate job with straightedges on the wall, above the existing backsplashes. for thier final measurments, because ultimately, this is whats important, not how the existing laminate fit the wall..

    Good luck, Nicole..

    I dont check in very often, and its actually quite rare that I looked this morning.. I hope I shed some light on the intricasies of an installation..

  • Valerie Noronha
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Best of luck to you for a satisfactory resolution to this unfortunate situation. They certainly sound very unprofessional; not all customers are courteous, but at end of the day, they are the customer so even if you were less than polite, their response is still unacceptable.

    On the credit card note, I've also found that companies will approve us (or my teenaged children) for amounts that are significantly higher than we need; esp. my kids. Keep in mind, it is also possible to lower your credit limit to what you and your DH feel comfortable with. I recently got a joint card with my 17-year-old DD more for convenience when she goes out shopping, etc. and give her some training in how to use and manage her credit. My DH and I decided that she could only have a limit of $600 so I requested her limit be lowered to that amount. That way she is also not tempted to overspend beyond what she had in her savings account.

  • Nicoleb1386
    Original Author
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    In regards to the comment about my melodrama,

    When the bell first rang I initially thought it was the Jehovia Witness' because they have come a couple of times in the last month, as they are having a big event soon. I didn't need to add that information in before but FYI that is why I ignored it.

    As I said we do not have any family or friends that would just show up on a weekday when I normally would not have been home (but I was because we were having our washer delivered before all of this happened) Anyone I know that lives near me would have called me. So thats that. Our mailman rings once and leaves if something doesn't fit in our box.

    I have never had someone come to my door and repeatedly bang and press the bell repeatedly, and when I saw the white panel van out the window with no markings you bet your life I didn't go near my door to look out the peephole. I am sorry but that is not normal period. GE delivered my washer in a huge Semi Truck. My husband drives a box truck for work, the mailman drives a mail truck, my mom friends drive minivans. My point is I don't know anyone who drives a white panel van-unmarked. The day they installed my counters they drove a truck with their logo on the side with a trailer behind.


    Now to add some more information for anyone wondering about the measurements.

    We have now made a major discovery and it is now obvious why the overhang is so great, and it has nothing to do with our cabinets.

    My husband spent some time taking some measurements of the entire kitchen, and guess what?

    The piece that is in front of the window, that has the sink measures a depth of 26th and 1/8th inches.

    The piece that we believe was put in cock eyed that I have been talking about has a depth of 25 and 3/8th inches. (I was off by 1/10th of an inch when I said this morning it was 25.5)

    THIS IS ONLY THE DEPTH OF THE STONE, as in we took the tape measurer and got it in the space between the wall and the front and never touched the wall, this is just the stone.

    We never measured the other piece because we were fixated on the piece being rolled in crooked.

    One of our cabinets differentiates the rest by 1/16th of an inch for those concerned they might be part of the problem.


    I began this thread concerned about my faucet and chips and now I realize that was truly nothing compared to this.

    Thank you all for all of your kind advice and patience, I am so appreciative.

    I will probably not add any more information until after Tuesday when the inspector comes as I don't want to clutter this forum with my melodrama :) I do want to update for those that are following this and are curious.
    Have a wonderful weekend to you all :)

  • Holly- Kay
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Nicole, you don't have to justify yourself to realism. I don't blame you at all for not answering the door!

  • rollie
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    "Now to add some more information for anyone wondering about the measurements.

    We have now made a major discovery and it is now obvious why the overhang is so great, and it has nothing to do with our cabinets. "

    "One of our cabinets differentiates the rest by 1/16th of an inch for those concerned they might be part of the problem."

    One would have to assume that this is pointed at me, as I have questioned this a couple times...

    You have the benefit of being able to measure everything there.

    We, as onlookers, trying to help can only process the information you give us, and the 1/10" does not concern me, or probably anyone else.

    The width of the sink piece doesnt really matter, what ultimately matters is the distance away from the wall(which you have indicated as being tight) and the amount of overhang from the front of the cabinets on that piece, which you havent said. IIf its 26 1/8, and tight to the wall, then there should be approx 2 1/8 inchers of overhang on that piece..if everything about that wall is "standard". That would be unacceptable for me, and im sure probably you..

    a 24 inch base cabinet should have a top that measures somewhere between 25 1/4 and 25 1/2 inches for a standard overlay door. It appears your doors are a lipped overlay, so the actual amount of overhang is up for discussion at the time of measuring.. Just like an inset door application can have a top that measures anywhere from 24 3/4, to 25 1/2, depending on the edge selected, or the owners wishes..

    I hope you get this resolved..

  • Nicoleb1386
    Original Author
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Video Link at Bottom...

    Hi everyone, I have some updates. On Tuesday of this week our Kitchen Company sent out their site surveyor to inspect the job. He agreed that there was no reason there should be varying depths in the counters, and that our cabinets and walls would not have impacted that. He said very little, but also agreed that it was not our fault we did not get the faucet configuration that we wanted. He left and assured me he would deal with the owner of the Fabrication Company himself.

    Later that day my door bell rang, and it was a certified letter from the Fabrication Company announcing they were starting the Lien Process, and they had the right as a subcontractor to put a a Lien on our home regardless if we pay our Kitchen Company in Full. Great, exactly what I was afraid of.

    My husband called my kitchen company back and they also got the certfied letter, but said no more other than they were working on this and would call us in the morning.

    My husband speaks with the Site Surveyor, we are now told we are to work with him. He is still going around about the fact that we can pick another faucet, yadayada, but our biggest concern right now is the counters and their depth and "Crookedness" if you will. He says they could possibly removed and refabricated.

    We are then told that the owner of the Fabrication store himself wants to drive 70 miles to our house to inspect this work. We knew this was an intimidation tactic because the site surveyor took pictures, measurements, etc...why would he want to come to our house. Also we had done some research on him in the meantime, and we got the feeling this was his M/O.

    My husband told the site surveyor that we would need a rep. from the kitchen company present, and that they should only come if they are under the understanding the entire thing will be videotaped, as we are not playing any games. If he is only coming to measure and offer to fix the pieces, this should not be an issue.

    He told us that was fine. If you follow this link you can see the video/hear audio, sorry it cuts out for a couple seconds at the end. I was not in the house with our daughter, my husband dealt with this himself.

    Also Cambria is VERY interested in the fact that this joker is mis-representing himself as a Cambria Lexus Partner, when in fact he is not. There are only 16 in North America, none in Florida, and they are very elite companies from what we undertstand, and Cambria has assured us we will be getting a call from the Regional Manager on Monday.

    You will see in the video he lies repeatedly and makes excuses. When he claims at the end we have made false statements against his company he is referring to the letter we sent to the BBB and our complaints to Cambria. We have only spoken truthful statements about him and his company, unfortunately he is just a lying crook.

    For those interested in Cambria and how they have helped us so far, it's hard to say. They definitely made contact with these companies, and offered us sympathy and continued support via phone, if you will but as you will see at the end of the video the owner says he will not help us and walks out the door...we never even talked about the varying depths of the counters, etc...

    The only thing he is telling the truth about is, I did accept the counters but I never signed anything and that was only after they said they had 1/2 my money, and my formica was ruined. I did try to reject the counters....

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1KA5iWQxJmo

    So for now we wait until Monday. The site surveyor said he would talk to his boss on Monday. I swear it's like buying a car, when they keep going in the back to talk with the boss, but for now we wait some more....

    Thanks again everyone!

  • rollie
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    If the "Kitchen Company" is in agreement with you, then there should be no reason to fear the mechanics lien. Technically, the lien can be removed if the Cabinet company pays the fabrication facility their unpaid portion of the invoice, assuming you paid the cabinet company the deposit.

    Ultimately, the cabinet company hired the fabricator, its their problem to take care of the fabrication invoice. If they are in agreement with you that the fabrication/installation is defective its up to them to work out the details. If both the fabrication company and the kitchen company are in agreement that the final job is acceptable, then you are probably in trouble, but it doesnt sound that way to me. Correct?

    I cannot imagine, in this day and age, that there is anyone certified to fabricate and install Cambria that isnt equipped with digital templating equipment...

    "Cambria has assured us we will be getting a call from the Regional Manager on Monday."

    Keep us informed on how this goes..

    I gotta ask, If, the Cambria fit the wall perfectly, and the overhangs on the cabinets were good, what would you do with the sink/faucet situation. Do you like the sink well enough to use an alternative faucet, or do you want the faucet chosen, and would like a different sink/countertop, because ultimately, you have an incompatible combination with the two right now and you will have to make a decision on how to proceed..

    R

  • 1929Spanish
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I'm sorry you're having this problem.

    Because it's an active situation, my advice would be to keep the video and other evidence private unless otherwise professionally advised.

  • Nicoleb1386
    Original Author
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hi Rollie,

    I am not sure about the Lien. In Florida, there is a statue that states a subcontractor can place a lien upon your house even if you have paid your contractor in full...

    Well our company was in agreement that it was incorrect...but we are thinking that the Kitchen Company needs the fabricator and that is why they are on their side. Our Kitchen rep acted completely different with the Fabricator then he did when he came out on Tuesday.

    When my husband turned the camera off after the Fabrication Owner left, he asked the Site Surveyor to be real, and he again admitted that they messsed up and he would talk to the boss on Monday.

    I mean this is tough, because I think the Kitchen Company knows the Fabricators screwed up but neither of them is willing to take the loss. The Fabrication company are complete crooks, and the Kitchen Company needs them to full fill jobs so they can stay in business. We think they do all of their Silestone, Cambria, etc...

    We were starting to get over the faucet, and were just looking for them to fix the depth mistakes, and fill the chips, but when the Site Surveyor came out Tuesday he was really on our side that while we were in the small percent of those who wanted that style of faucet, we paid for that look and it was wrong that we didn't get it. He wasn't emotional about it or anything he just said, we told you to have the faucet information for templating, you had it, they rejected it, it's not your fault.

    Now that the Fabricator is unwilling to fix the depth issues, we don't know where we stand.

    The only thing I can think of is if we meet somewhere in the middle on the cost, and then we take the money we saved and pay another fabricator to fix the depth issues, and obviously understand we are doing the one hole faucet.

    We would only do that though after we could see if another Fabricator could fix the depth issues, how much it would cost, etc...

    Does that seem possible Rollie? Are Fabricators willing to fix other people's messes?

    Thank you so much for you response.

    Nicole

  • Nicoleb1386
    Original Author
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Ahh yes, Cambria is aware of the video and they know it is on Youtube...

  • msrose
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Oh man, your husband has guts! I'm certainly not trying to make light of the situation, but he was cracking me up with his chipper attitude. Can I hire him the next time I need something done? I'm always such a coward when it comes to that kind of thing.

  • 1929Spanish
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I meant you might need the advice of an attorney and I'm not sure that they would suggest it was wise to put that out in the public domain.

    I was thinking this: Do you have his permission on the video or in writing to record and publish the video that could potentially become evidence should you need to pursue legal action?

    My approach to these kinds of matters is different than others on this board, but your situation now includes legal action which seems to me more serious.

    Just my perspective.

  • rollie
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Subcontractor can lien your property. Most times this happens when the owner pays the contractor,(Kitchen Company) and the contractor doesnt pay the subcontractor.

    Yours is different because it sounds like the kitchen company is on your side.

    Who did you write the deposit check out to? Kitchen company, or fabrication facility?


    Since you have 26 some inches on the sink piece over all, I do think that there it can be refabricated to work, although I havent seen close up pictures of the far left, or the far right to see how it all goes together. I guess there are pictures of the far right, and it looks like it is just a standard end overhang into a refrigerator opening? Or does it butt into something? (panel). What about to the left of the sink? Is that open ended, or does it butt into a wall?

    I dont know it the relationship with the fabrication facility is terminal with you (as owners) or not.

    Ultimately, the kitchen company hired them... and needs them, evidently.

    If you are to move forward

    Kitchen company needs to pay the fabrication company for the defective work performed so far, in good faith that they will be allowed to come back, remove the pieces and refabricate them to proper specifications and install with different installation technicians, at no charge to you. The cost associated with this approach are between the cabinet company and the fabrication company.. I would think that the fab co. knows that they have the kitchen co over a barrel, because they need them, if there isnt any other certified fabs around. They need to work together. This isnt your problem..

    Ultimately, I'm of the opinion that the seam needs to be reworked in order for all the pieces to come together the way they shouldve to begin with, but like I said earlier, Im not there, so im just taking a shot in the dark..Assuming you are willing to integrate a different faucet, or live with your faucet being off center. or, a new sink piece is in the works.

  • Vertise
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Get your lawyer to write the fabricator a letter about how they didn't template correctly for the faucet, etc. Sometimes that's all it takes for them to admit their mistakes to themselves and move on.

    Be brief with your lawyer! They charge by the hour, lol. Just state the simple, basic facts, some pictures, and let him inquire any other information if he needs it.

    P.S. I would remove the video from the internet.

    This post was edited by snookums2 on Sat, Apr 20, 13 at 13:17

  • williamsem
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    So sorry to hear this isn't getting resolved.

    I do agree with the posts advising to keep the detailed info off public places for now as this is ongoing and maybe headed for lawyer involvement. As much as I'd love to see how this unfolds as my own countertop templating will be in about a month, it may hurt your legal position.

    If there is someone that wants an update to help with their own situation, they can always contact you via email vs an open forum.

    Do let us know how this ends though. It helps people going through someone similar see what might happen.

  • weissman
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Yes, go dark until this is resolved and definitely talk to a lawyer. Lien laws vary by state but generally the person putting on the lien has a short time to prove their case to a judge or the lien will expire and you clearly have evidence that the fabricator didn't meet their obligation. Good luck. The KD shouldn't be dependent on the fabricator - if they're not licensed to install Cambria, the KD shouldn't sell it.

  • Vertise
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Just watched it. This guy is an idiot. I wonder if he believes what he is saying. A normal person or contractor worries about making a mistake drilling into expensive cabinets and counters when they have the specs. They have to eat their mistakes. They certainly don't proceed without the information, guessing at fixtures and locations. He doesn't have a leg to stand on with these things he is trying to pull over on his customer (incomplete information, wrong faucet for the sink you chose ... ). He is the so-called professional here.

    "Why are you shaaakkiing?" Come on, lol.

    Don't deal with them anymore or respond to their threats. Let your lawyer handle them.

    Strive for a full refund so you can start over with a professional. I wouldn't let them back in my house. They can pick up the (carefully padded/stored) removed counter outside or it can be delivered back to them.

    This post was edited by snookums2 on Sat, Apr 20, 13 at 14:17

  • jerzeegirl
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I found this brochure that explains lien law in Florida.

    Here is a link that might be useful: Florida Liens

  • jerzeegirl
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    edited to delete duplicate post

    This post was edited by jerzeegirl on Sun, Apr 21, 13 at 20:17

  • kaysd
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Lien laws vary by state, but my general rule is that you should not give final payment to the GC until he provides you with signed lien release forms from all subs, precisely because the subs can file liens against your house even if you pay the GC in full but he fails to pay the subs. You contracted with the kitchen company, and they hired the sub that did the faulty work, so the kitchen company is ultimately responsible for the quality of the work. Assuming you have not already paid the kitchen company in full for whatever you owe them, I would inform them that you are withholding payment in an amount equal to the full cost of the counters until they provide you with a signed lien release from their sub (it is between them and the fabricator what financial arrangement they come to to get the release signed) as well as properly installed counters. In other words, don't pay until you get exactly what you are paying for plus a lien release from everyone.

  • raee_gw zone 5b-6a Ohio
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Wow, what a situation! I have little to add except to say that I have had to deal with a few people who assumed that they could intimidate, bully, patronize or embarrass me into accepting a wrong situation and that a letter from an attorney works wonders. Don't forget that although he can (attempt to) place a lien, you can sue as well. He has to prove that his work met his obligations.

    Your phone and email records will be important to show that you did NOT accept the workmanship, since you were calling to complain as the install was happening.

  • camii41
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    what happened? i was searching for something else and came across your post. after reading it for 30+ minutes i want to know the outcome :)

  • Iowacommute
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Maybe they got it from fixed but had to go silent.

  • Erica L
    8 years ago

    I just read the whole post and wonder too! It's been 2+ years but I would love to know lol.

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