OK, how about this. Sink and Fridge in one counter, stove in the other.

What I like: Huge, 24" deep prep area adjacent to range. Good storage for pots and pans, cooking utensils, spices and oils, etc. Window is a nice place to stand for prep work, I'd imagine. Dish storage is still near dining room, as is drop-off for dirty dishes. Someone can get drinks, tableware, etc. without interfering with cooking (currently the cook is partly blocking the fridge, usually).

What I don't like: Lots of smaller "filler" type cabinets (stove can't go right in the corner like the sink did, and the sink isn't in the corner to make the upper cabinets look right). No place for trash can near clean-up area (could be next to fridge, maybe?). Had to add a whole additional wall of upper cabinets just to get it to look right, including an upper corner. Had to lose the standalone chimney-type range hood. Contractor says venting from that wall is most difficult, also. Dirty dishes are most prominant to doorway.

Just wanted to clarify, I wasn't trying to be a jerk by telling you to put dirty dishes in the dw.

Seeing a pile of dirty dishes and not being able to use the sink is a common concern of those thinking of switching from a double bowl to a single. So if you get in the habit loading as you go there is less of an issue.

As for the layout. The only thing I can say is that I move alot from the range to the sink, and back. I like being able to move thinks over the counter. My old kitchen I had to cross the center of the room, which I didn't like, felt wasn't safe. Thinking of pots of boiling water, etc.

Gotcha, debrak. I'm used to seeing a pile of dirty dishes. We don't put dishes in the sink now, and we certainly won't if we go to a single. Right now, half our double sink has a wire dish drainer and (95% of the time) is filled with clean dishes. The other basin is always empty, ready for use. So, we are really wasting half of the sink anyhow. A big single-basin could be used just like we use ours now, with a dish rack on one side.

What I'm thinking more about is from where those dirty dishes are most visible. Though, obviously, if I'm trying to impress someone, there won't be any dirty dishes sitting around!

There doesn't seem to be a way to put the sink and range in the same run of counter in our kitchen, without it seeming very cramped.

In the latest plan, above, I just realized I could get rid of that little filler next to the sink just by making the adjacent counter 6" deeper. Side effect: could potentially make a full-size fridge look built in with the extra depth.

I'm sorry if this has been mentioned before but can you have the back door open outwards? If that's a possibility you may think of something in the passage to your DR (As you can see I'm obsessed with that passage:-))

Also I found the below picture on the net. Maybe you can use such a mechanism to have more work space.

I suppose that door could be changed. What then?

How about in your last setup add a small prep sink on the other side. Then you can use that to prep and cook and the clean-up can occur on the other side. Since a prep sink can be smaller you won't need the full depth depending on what you get. Yes a bit more plumbing, but it would solve the having to walk across a traffic path with a hot pot or to fill one.

Also would allow you more than one person to do prep. One by the kitchen sink and one by the stove/prep sink.

I suppose that door could be changed. What then?
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Then you may consider if it would be beneficial to get rid of the upper closet to widen the passage and move the fridge to the other closet.

Not sure I follow. On the left side of my plan, there is a corridor with a closet below it (I'm considering adding a countertop and cabinets to this closet). Below that is a bathroom that opens to the left. Sorry I didn't notate that more clearly.

Quick regarding a sink, mine is 29" wide inside, 91/2" deep from counter level, and an entire meal's mess, including baking sheets and pots, can disappear into it in half a minute. That doesn't sound that big or deep (9-1/2"?), but it lives really large because everything can sit flat. It could be less wide and still great (my large baking sheets are 21"). I routinely set things in mine when I'm too hurried to put them in the DW because it's off off the main sight line out the back door from the living room.

Here is what I mean. Fridge( or countertop+cabinets) can be in that closet area next to bath, and if the upper closet (your coffee station) is eliminated, entry to DR can be moved a little bit to outer wall side to ease traffic.

sena01,
While that certainly could be done, it is not necessary. That closet is 27" deep so a normal-depth counter can fit without even messing up the door trim. However, moving the door would let someone slip by while someone else is standing, working, at that counter. Remember, the ceiling is lower in that spot, so leaving the doorway as a trimmed doorway is probably best (even if it is enlarged).

I was thinking of putting a bar sink in that nook - plumbing is nearby for the bathroom already. I wonder if it would be useful to a cook as well if that countertop were connected instead of in a separate-seeming room.

None of the plans posted have resonated as much, aesthetically, as our "favorite" plan did in the first post. It has some symmetry and balance that is lacking in the others even though the others are probably more functional.

I'll post some pictures soon so I can try to explain why we like it.

Can't you heat the floor and ditch the rad?

All my research indicates that that doesn't work. The 180 degree water for radiator heat is too hot for floor heat.

We actually have electric heat in the kitchen now, I suspect one of those kits you lay before the tile goes down. It's nice, if you remember to switch it on. Probably we won't have tiles in the new kitchen though, so it'll be less necessary.

This post was edited by elofgren on Wed, Apr 24, 13 at 21:54

I was thinking of putting a bar sink in that nook - plumbing is nearby for the bathroom already. I wonder if it would be useful to a cook as well if that countertop were connected instead of in a separate-seeming room.
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For me it would be very functional to have a sink on the same counter with the stove.

I meant to cap off the radiator and just put in an electric heated floor. It's not expensive in the grand scheme; the only issue is what to do if/when it stops working.

OK, have a look at this. It's pictures of the plan from the very first post, 17 miles up the page.

We really like the simplicity and spaceousness it seems to have.

Since making those pictures, I've experimented with sliding the doorways 6-or-so inches up, and making the counter left of the range a full 24" wide. Also, then, the coffee area gets a 30" deep counter.

You like it. (!) IF it were mine, I'd move the stove to the right as much as comfortable to add space to the left.

24" will allow you to stand and work alongside the stove too, so to me the only question since you really like this is--while working in the corner, will you have adequate elbow-swing room on the stove side?

Right now, there's 32" next to the fridge, then 12" around the corner, then the stove. And that's where we do our cooking, predominately. Right of the stove is 24".

In this plan, there's 27ish" next to the fridge (wider fridge, plus side panels), then either 24" (if we move the door), or 18" (if we don't) around the corner, then the stove. Right of the stove is 18".

I'm thinking, what is the smallest buffer I'd be comfortable with on the other side of the stove. Would you go smaller? 15" or even 12"? I worry a little cabinet, not attached to anything, might start to look funny.

Picture is 24" left, 18" right, with the doorway scooched over a bit.

30 on the left, 12 on the right. Doorway still scooched.

There is no perfect solution for this kitchen, just the lesser of the evils. I would never buy this home if you keep the layout as shown above, for one important reason, The fridge is too far from the diningroom. Why don't you try some practice runs from that location and see what you think.

If you were buying my house, you would probably consider moving the dining room back to it's original location, nearer the fridge. We moved it to its current location so we could use the other room (which is larger) as an office/study/library/music room.

The fridge in the plan above is where it is now. And yeah, it's kind of annoying. But, it's a small house; I couldn't get it more than 3 or 4 steps closer unless I put it in that closet. And then, you'd be really annoyed if you wanted to switch the dining room back.

What we keep coming back to is weighing form against function. For example, my wife didn't like the look of that angled cabinet (which made the counter over the radiator deeper). And of the two pictures directly above, she preferred the first, with the wider cabinet to the right of the range, because it improves the symmetry of that wall. (She also pointed out that when we both cook, one person sometimes works there and shares the stovetop.)

the powder room and closet, situated internally are the obstacles. A long term plan would allow for closet space"re-allocation" and a better spot for a powder room, thereby giving proper due to any kitchen plan you would pursue....with expansion of sq footage.The general layout of the home is not shown. Laundry/other baths/water sources are not discussed here so there are limits to what can be offered for long range options to improve the home more than just "getting the sink or range or fridge in the right spot". At this point, do proceed with plan 2 on the 24th you show with cutback of wall and a wrap into what you call "hall". Align the lowers facing out all the same way and order them reduced depth and extend counter beyond a bit. There are many shorter episodic activities this can be used for that don't constitute "standing"in the hall.....pouring cereal/setting something down/ uncorking wine and laying out snacks/appetizers/charging phones/laying out plates for family members to take to their dinner table spot/etc.the sink and range on the internal L vs another way is not that critical. Do you not feel that breezeway with the door is one day going to be knocked through and repurposed perhaps not by you but a future owner? It seems logical.

Here's the whole house

well, the most obvious question is whether the "playroom", once the children outgrow that requirement, then can be a nice quieter den/or whatever term given to adult use/secondary spaces these days. Library becomes a beautiful dining room with a widening of opening to liv room for more unification.... [and with that enhanced connection looks like an absolutely gorgeous space in the making]. then the back sweep of the home could be really special with enhanced kitchen perhaps with large banquette or island kitchen ....or get a laundry/ butler's pantry/etc. Two things about the back: again-that internal closet and powder room-and the vestibule/breezeway-potentially taking the side wall of that and extending it back to align with exterior radiator wall in kitchen-so much could be done with that single change. Of course a lot depends on your family's long term plans/budget/realistic long term value of properties in your area/etc. I would consider a more extensive plan here[even if done in phases] as the kitchen is functioning fine and if you simply "rearrange the deck chairs" I think you'll miss an opportunity.

Interesting ideas. The playroom is more of a sunporch kind of space - maybe once was a 3-season porch? It's not on a basement like the rest of the house.

I feel like "open" living spaces are faddish. Maybe I'm wrong... but I like rooms. Maybe that's part of why we were attracted to this house. Connecting the library with the living room would be an awesome, huge, room. But it'd still be really awkward with all the doors, radiators, stairs, windows, fireplace, etc. - hard to figure out how to furnish and allow traffic flow. Not impossible, though!

The back mudroom is really a windowed-in porch as well; we're hoping to winterize it a bit as part of this project. If we moved that wall out to the edge, well, first I'd cry a little bit because we put a new roof on 6 months ago. Then, I'd think about putting the half-bath there and expanding the kitchen.

Unfortunately, none of that's in the budget. Budgeting is hard because on the one hand we want what we want, and on the other hand, it's (at the end of the day), only a

One seeing the whole layout I have to agree that the closet and powder room are really limiting your options. Opening the kitchen to the dining can be done without making it totally open as you still have distinct rooms for your living, playroom and library. Judicious use of large entryways, wide french doors, pony walls, raised bars, etc. can be utilized to define two distinct spaces yet allow for better flow between rooms as well as more of a functional space in small spaces since traffic patterns can be minimized thereby allowing more room for furniture, cabinets, appliances and radiators which are all competing for wall space.Plus there is more light as it will come from multiple directions and make rooms feeling brighter and bigger. Even if you remove some of your doors or put in pocket doors it would help. I respect you are on a budget, but remodeling can also be done in stages as long as you have a cohesive vision of your space taking into account your life for the next 10 years or so. I have to agree, I also would not purchase your house. I'd rather have a house sold for less with a kitchen that needs remodeling that one with a sub-functional kitchen, even with pretty cabinets and counters.

Did you consider swapping rooms?

Assuming that door to bath can be moved to the present kitchen, door to living resized, and fridge can be placed beside the small window, I think you may have, not probably more but better situated working space.

I don't know about the traffic from present DR to LR, plumbing problems or budget constraints, but this may be another alternative for you if you haven't already eliminated it.

I don't know if this will widen your options, but in renovating a 1923 bungalow, I left all the radiators in place except the one in the kitchen. I bought a smaller taller one and moved the connection a few feet to the left so that I could have the sink under the window. The cost was not much, and the room heats nicely.

Tall but small silver painted radiator in the corner replaced a chunkier one that was in front of the window.

I don't know how the bathroom is laid out, but can the door move to the closet wall? Just so it doesn't open right into living space. And maybe the coffee bar can go under the handsome little window across from it on shallow cabinets or a table.

Well, I'm another one who likes rooms with different moods and functions, and I really like your spaces. Takes all kinds.

If you do continue with the plan you've been liking all along, I'm thinking 15" to the right of the stove. You can sit anything down in that space, but it still frees up a bunch of room for the other side. Enough when you're busy to be working the entire span of the corner without being too cramped to actually work alongside the stove. It'd be a shame if that were only used as a holding area. I'd mock it all up and try it out, though, to allow you to develop a strong feeling for where each inch should go.

Regarding refrigerator-DRM relationship, although crossing a crowded, busy work area (such as the inside of an island or a narrow corridor) from dining to fridge would be problematic, you have a nice, open center, and 2 or 3 extra steps across it would be a price I'd pay happily to get something important to me in return. It's actually nice to think of that square footage contributing an important function, and of course your family is hypotenusing their kitchen routinely anyway.

Regarding the refrigerator and assumptions that should be viewed in personal context, IF you do make that counter nice and deep and can use a standard depth unit, do you actually need a 35-36" one? Lots of people end up storing beverages in volume in the extra space. 32" would free up a wonderful 3" and. of course, be a nod to green choices.

Aside from width, standard depth would also allow a desirable single-door unit that opened away from the prep/stove area, thus not opening in the cook's way, including when it's the cook doing the opening.

Rosie,
If I ever need to sell my house for some reason, I'll call you first!

Eric

OK... If you were me, would you trade a six inches of workspace by the stove for a deeper counter plus a full-size fridge? (And maybe I could get 3" back by getting a narrower fridge)

By the way, currently we have a full-size freezer plus a dorm fridge in the basement; probably we'll put our old top-freezer there and sell the all-freezer when we get a new fridge.

Edit: We're a family of four, at the moment, with a 1- and a 4-year-old. So our refrigerator needs haven't exactly peaked!

This post was edited by elofgren on Fri, Apr 26, 13 at 20:44

How cute and how nice! The little ones are at our kids' homes these days, but I was just looking at a picture of our once-14-month-old sitting in a kitchen drawer he had climbed into. It was "his" drawer that he emptied of unbreakables to make room for him. I'm going to frame a print for our kitchen.

Any new progress in your thinking? Regarding the 6", such a good question. Honestly, I don't have an answer, but it's an important one that I imagine would vary from person to person. I would sacrifice things others might not to get the deeper counter. Just for instance, centering the stove in this situation wouldn't even be at the bottom of my list, although with small children keeping the stove at least 12" from the passage would be at the top. A sacrifice of 6" worth of precious counter edge to stand and work at would translate into 6" additional depth across the whole back of the main work area... Might well depend on whether I could get enough counter edge on the stove side of the corner to be able to move comfortably, arms especially.

I had some space limitations when I was doing mine, so I got boxes and "counter material" and set it all up, moving stuff this way and that, setting out bowls, chopping board, and pans of imaginary hot oil, etc., leaving oven and DW doors open, etc., until I had it all set down to the 1/2 inch, and even less.

I so recommend that. There were no surprises or disappointments at all, it works every bit as well as I thought it would, and also I have the comfort of believing I made it just right--sometimes more important than actually being so. :)

BTW, since you're working with inches here, don't forget you also conceivably have the wall depth at the back of the counter to work with. Barring plumbing lines, etc., it'd be a small matter to frame a niche that just happened to be the same size as the area between counter and upper cabinets there. Or shorter to create a ledge, or... You'd lose insulation between kitchen and stairwell, tho.

It doesn't really matter.....people will have to learn navigation patterns to sequence their retieval from cabinets and use of corners/counters in two locations. Some cabinets flanking the window by the radiator would help steer people away from "jams" at sink and the critical corner between fridge and range where there is a handicap for everyone because all wall cabinets flank only one side of that L......and the same alignment of wall cabs only in one position around the sink makes that L unfriendly.

I don't follow... what is the handicap? The corner-most cabinet being hard to reach? Seems like the countertop and lower cabinets would serve to "steer people." And the cornermost cabinet would be no worse then trying to reach the back of a "corner cabinet." Yes, we'd be giving up cabinet space. That's not very high on our list - but functional counter space certainly is!

In other news.... pulled the electric stove out yesterday, and there's a gas line behind it! Just need to wire a 110V outlet and we'll be all set when the NXR arrives in a week or so--No plumber needed.

nkba has guidelines....1."no single leg of work triangle less than 4 ft", for example....your fridge to range is extrememly tight....3-4ft distance is creating the corner problem....[that's why there is a guideline] 2."no major traffic pattern should cross the work triangle"..3."at least 60 inches wall cabinet frontage within 72 inches of primary sink centerline"....handicap is your word.... the guidelines are designed to assist you.....they cover a lot of aspects. Awareness of the guidelines generally and taking heed of them for the most part is helpful.

Well, that last is certainly true, Herbflavor, and my own initial assumption was that something I might like better, and would end up conforming more, might be in order. (Elofgren, I just like to be able to use my long-range vision while I work).

But. hey. When someone has considered all options in great detail, likes her existing layout best, then comes here for yet more input to consider, and STILL likes her existing layout best? That's pretty good progress, right? :)

The process seems to be moving to the detail stage, where that personally satisfying basic layout hopefully gets tweaked to add what was lacking. In any case, there is more need for knowledgeable input from this forum in tight spaces than big ones, and more need for clever ideas.

Gas already in place--congrats, Elofgren.

It's funny how my thinking about the previous owners evolved, too. From "What were they thinking" to "that's why they did it that way."

I read through all those NKBA guidelines just now. Some of them were just laughable (no traffic through work triangle? ha!). Many of them we actually will get in the above design, though. Work triangle for example. Current Fridge->Stove is about 4.5' and we'll increase that slightly in the renovation. We're adding counter space (they recommend 11' I think, and we have about 9' now.) And I keep forgetting about that coffee station when I do the math. That's three feet of counter, and base, and wall cabinets.

The guidelines do sound like they were written by cabinet salesmen, though! Must have five storage/organizing items, eh? I'll just run right out and buy those, then.

Thanks for all the great ideas, everyone. It may not seem like it but we argued and discussed and drew and rendered every suggestion someone made above. We'll keep tweaking but I think we're on the right track for our family and this house now.

elofgren, I have some thoughts to run past you regarding your coffee bar. Do you know if the wall on the right side of your closet can be removed (next to the diningroom)? If so, you have the room to do the following:
1. Place a regular depth and ht. 24" w. fridge in the closet on the wall next to the kitchen. This would be a secondary fridge, mainly for all beverages (water, milk, juice, soda) and condiments (catsup, mayo, etc.). GE makes a fridge this size (see AJMadison). It has a freezer across the top. An ice maker can be purchased for it; cost is about $600. Specs say it requires 1" space on each side. Inset the fridge with a panel on the right. I wouldn't want my only fridge in that area but for this purpose, it could be a lifesaver, esp. with little ones.
2. With the wall removed on the right closet side, this allows room for 27" wide cabinets. I would build-in a Miele coffeemaker and have a small microwave built in above.
The drawers below could be for cutlery and dish drawers. My guess is that the posts opposite the closet are for support and cannot be removed to give you more room in the pass through.

We forced some decisions last night when confronted with a too-good-to-pass-up deal at Lowes - bought a 36" wide counter-depth fridge. Saved almost $1000 we can use on something else.

Texasgal, That closet is 36" wide; removing one wall would make it maybe 42." Couldn't remove all the way up to the ceiling as there are differing ceiling heights between closet and dining room.

We do not need a third fridge, I don't think. I agree that the location would be very convenient, but it's probably not worth the loss of counter space and storage space in that area. If anything I would consider a under-cabinet sized fridge.

I hope you're wrong about those posts. Moving that doorway closer to the top wall would give us some better counter area on the kitchen. We will have to have a pro consider that, though.

Elofgren, wow, congrats on the new fridge and the great price. I'm excited for you. Hopefully, I'm wrong about those posts, too. I'm talking about the two small ones that are in the pass through from kitchen to DR, on the exterior wall. As far as the fridge is concerned, you must be far more energetic than I am. I've always had a kitchen where the fridge was only a few steps from the breakfast table; consider me spoiled. By the way, that was a great strategy when you moved the diningroom to the back of the house.
It bloggles my mind to think of you going through a remodel with two little ones when one considers the stress of making all those expensive decisions, the time involved, plus the mess and chaos. Keep those posts coming. We GWebbers love sharing the excitement.

Just a first-floor half-bath comment -

I'd take it out of the DR. Who wants to be eating a meal next to a bathroom?

Tuck it under the stairs. I've seen it done in many older small homes and while it's not a fantastic half-bath, it's functional and out of your eating space.

If you do this you'll capture an additional 24 sq. ft. or so for your kitchen remodel.

Got stairs under those stairs, I'm afraid.

Is it original to the house? I understand how a first floor half bath is such a good thing, but maybe it's worth considering losing it for the greater good.

It's not original to the house. Moving it could be a consideration. But I don't know to where. Removing it can't be a consideration. With kids at the ages they are, a toilet needs to be convenient.

It's awkward having it off of the dining room, though. We should add a fan when we're doing ductwork, for white noise if nothing else.

Another thought - switch the function of the Library and DR. Does that reframe your thinking abou the kitchen layout?

If you don't have a lot of furniture in the DR, maybe you can enlarge the bath to that side and have the door on the LR side.

Or remove the closet and open the bath into that space, and put the coffee bar on the opposite wall under the window.

bpathome - good idea, but that bathroom is so small - I don't think it could have a door on an end (instead of the long side) and still house a sink and toilet.

sena01 - I'm not sure we could find another furniture layout for that living room if we put another door in it! And it wouldn't help too much anyhow. Kitchen wouldn't be larger, and the bathroom would still be adjacent to--if not open to--the dining room.

karen_belle - we actually made the switch to the current layout. The current "library" is the larger room; it houses four big bookshelves, two desks, and a piano. However, we are trying to keep in mind (in kitchen layout) the possibility of us or some future owner switching it back. This is one of the reasons, for example, that we don't want to put the fridge in the closet at top center. A coffee/refreshment station doesn't seem out of place in case it was next to a study instead of a dining room. But that would be a long long way way to the fridge if the dining room was lower right.