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Feedback for awkard layout

Posted by JerryNC (My Page) on
Sun, Mar 24, 13 at 22:36

Very new here. Redoing a kitchen remodel of 5 years ago. At the time had never heard of work triangle and placed stove as an afterthought. Kitchen is currently 9 X 15 looking to take down wall between kitchen and den, but will have a post remaining as shown. The resulting room will be some 15 X 21, but it also serves as passageway to family room addition across entire rear of split entry, i.e. walkout basement house.

Sorry for quality of graphics.

I was originally planning a U, with stove moved to one wall, sink under the window where it current resides and side-by-side fridge on opposite wall with island. That appears to be way to wide, plus the island is an obstruction between fridge and stove. So I am going for more of a L in my revision with stove and fridge on the 21 foot wall. I did turn the corner on the L on the door wall, but just to use existing cabinets. Island would be 3 X 6 reusing both base and wall cabinets for more storage.


Follow-Up Postings:

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RE: Feedback for awkard layout

Proposed Layout


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RE: Feedback for awkard layout

2nd Pic


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RE: Feedback for awkard layout

3rd pic birdseye


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Window, sink DW


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Doorway wall


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RE: Feedback for awkard layout

Please read the "new to kitchens..." thread posted by buehl
that is usually on page 1 or 2. It will give you tons of info
on planning a kitchen. It will also tell you what you need to
post to get help for your layout. For example, who will be
using your kitchen? how many cooks? etc.

It will also tell you how to put multiple photos in one post.

I can't read your layout, its too small. Clicking on it does not make it bigger.

One suggestion is to put real venting in over the range. Move the mw somewhere else.

This post was edited by debrak_2008 on Mon, Mar 25, 13 at 7:15


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RE: Feedback for awkard layout

Could just be the viewing angle, but it does appear that the sink is slightly off center from the window. Any chance of getting it centered. I think it will show a lot in real life if it's just a little off as opposed to right on the center.


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RE: Feedback for awkard layout

for what purpose is the empty space on the right ? Is the only entry into the kitchen from the door on the lower wall? Counter and fridge to the left of the entry passage would be smarter than a pantry. Most people want into the fridge and some counter to set things on.....even a 2nd sink on this stretch might be appropriate.....Explain or show a pic of the family room addition/split rear entry and walk out lower level and how these spaces feed into the kitchen design/or not. You've got a segregated kitchen with four walls,but in what sense are you bringing up the other spaces? don't see any flow for the plan yet.


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RE: Feedback for awkard layout

Hi Jerry!

Is the doorway by Cabinet 1 fixed?

Are you committed to reusing ALL your old cabinets and JUST your old cabinets or are you adding new cabinets?

I will think about the pieces of the puzzle. I'm not a layout expert but have been thinking a lot about fitting my old kitchen cabinets together too so it has been on my mind! I don't know about the sink off centre being too noticeable - since the sink is fully in the window, and the window is off centre, I don't think it would be a huge deal. But I think that long wasteland of counter off to the left of the sink will probably be underused.

This post was edited by robotropolis on Mon, Mar 25, 13 at 12:03


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RE: Feedback for awkard layout

Thanks for responses and patience.
How many people will work food in the kitchen at the same time? Two cooks plus eat in for 2 to 3

Are there any special cooking needs - and related appliances and storage - to consider? No

Who else will use the kitchen and for what? Gathering place, see below

What is the traffic situation? Does part of the kitchen function as a passageway from one part of the home to another? Where do the groceries come in and where does the garbage go out?

Space adjacent to the kitchen serves as pass thru to the rear addition, a 16 X 32 rectangle that includes dining table, buffet, china cabinet, on one end then 2 sectional sofas and tv on other end,
Space next to kitchen originally served as den and will have a small sectional on entry wall and tv on wall opposite viewable thru-out the planned open concept kitchen. Entering the kitchen from the short hallway. Access is down 5 steps from splt entry then left thru small hallway. Groceries and garbage use same route.

What are your storage needs? Do you shop frequently or prefer to keep a lot on hand? Do you have lots of gadgets, china, special pans, etc.
Have lots of cabinets now but counters still look cluttered. Also have bakers rack on wall in den that holds three crockpots, a foreman lil george chicken cooker and a nuwave (unused over), using the overhang like a pot rack

Where are you on ‘form over function’ vs. ‘function over form’? Would you prioritize perfect point of use storage or perfect visual symmetry in the look of the cabinets?

function is key, symmetry would follow.

Is there something you want so bad (a pantry, an island, a 48? range) that you will accept a compromise such as narrow passage, less counter, etc.

Open concept, place to eat quick meals in the kitchen are priorities. Broom closet would be a plus.

What is your budget? Is there money for structural changes like moving a window?

Under $10K, which means we are keeping a post when removing the wall instead of the expense of a laminated beam all the way across. Will be keeping existing appliances and cabinets. The proposed U plan (below) bids came in around $6K plus 66 foot of solid surface countertop.


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RE: Feedback for awkard layout

Where are you putting the mw?


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Over the range.


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I asked the mw question to bump up the thread hoping you get more responses.

Most here are not fans of over the range mws if it can be avoided. By moving it somewhere else you can put real venting in above the range. It would allow someone else to use the mw while another person is at the range. Some think it is safer. How about in the lower part of the upper cabinet next to the refridgerater? Many items go right from the refridgerater to the mw.

Do you like diagonal cabinets in the corners? No right or wrong answer here just wondering if you thought about how you will use the corner cabinets, up and down.


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RE: Feedback for awkard layout

Hmm, I like that second picture with the stove on the other side! Not sure what everyone else will think.

I wanted to say - I have one support post smack dab in the middle of my kitchen and I REALLY REALLY REALLY regret it. I know your budget is small and your span is wide. If there is anywhere you can save in your remodel (formica instead of granite, vinyl instead of hardwood, two small pony walls remaining on either side e.g. box the fridge in with a little wall) to get that post out of there, I think you will appreciate it. I of course don't know the structural issues of your particular house. But the new(ish) LVL beams are awesome. The other thing to consider is maybe turning the island to face window, doing an L kitchen and having two support posts, one on either side of the island?


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RE: Feedback for awkard layout

By my calculations you have about 34" for the left and right (non-sink wall) sides of the island, counter to counter. That reduces to 23.5" in front of the fridge if you get a standard depth, maybe 28.5" if you get a counter depth fridge. That is wayyyyyyyyy too tight. You don't have room for a U+island with seating kitchen. You do have room for an L+island with seating kitchen if you can move the post. That support post is absolutely murdering your island for any prep use, so you will end up prepping in the corner between sink and range.

If you can't move the post at all, I would go with fridge on south wall (as oriented in your proposed layout), then range or sink in front of window and range or sink in island. Check your local code to see if ranges are permitted in front of windows if you prefer that route. Or, reduce the window size so you can get fridge, range and sink all on that wall with the sink under the window. With this, you can have seating around the north, east and west sides of your island if you like.

I haven't played around with the sizes of your existing cabinets in detail, but it looks like this would work.


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How about a U, with the open end toward the door wall, and a peninsula with seating? The post would be at the end of the peninsula. I'd leave the sink under the window, put the range to the right (outside wall?), and fridge to the left of the sink, with floor-to-ceiling pantry left of that.


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RE: Feedback for awkard layout

Thanks ann, I had tried a peninsula but pushed it too far into the den. Using the post as a end point would help. Can't move plumbing to put sink on island. I was also trying to reuse all existing cabinets, so reducing would help. I did place a left over base and wall mw next to the door.


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Sorry, misplaced the post. Only have about 76 inches. Would you recommend extending peninsula to 9 feet by placing 36 inch base as below, to 7.5 by adding an 18 inch base or leave at 6 feet with post at end?


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Why can't you move plumbing? Not expensive.

Last plan looks good.


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Slab construction under grade. Plumbing runs across front wall, then out to street. Orig location of sink was corner where pantry cabinets are in current plan. I could center a bit better by placing dw by fridge, then sink, then base drawers by lazy susan corner. Any rule about not putting dw by fridge?


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RE: Feedback for awkard layout

I would want the post at the end unless you can figure out a way to make it more a part of the design and function. Can it be turned or made the back of a tot the counter cabinet? part of a message center? Something that makes sense for it being there other than supporting the roof and not having the money to change it. The first is important, but the second cheapens the whole kitchen and I'd probably be the person who always got stuck sitting with my face looking right at the post -- or at least cooking and wanting to talk with the person stuck on the other side of the post. Open areas need to be open. When they can't, that's when you have to get creative and think outside the box -- take a lemon and figure out what to make with it.


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RE: Feedback for awkard layout

I really like the peninsula, with the post on the end. It looks planned and the post works much better IMHO, than in the second drawing, with peninsula extended.

The overall layout is really good, but the microwave looks like an afterthought. Any chance you could put the fridge there, with the microwave over the counter, as it wraps around the corner? This would give you more counter space by the sink for prep, too.

What about some shelves on the side of the fridge, facing the den? Have you seen Deedles' thread? It might give you some good ideas :)

Here is a link that might be useful: Deedles' thread


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RE: Feedback for awkard layout

The wife is concerned about losing storage, so went back to U with a peninsual. Stretched peninsula to 48 inches across and mounted 24 in walls on stretched column/post. Panty cabinets on each side of fridge. This makes the long leg of triangle between fridge and range 11-12 feet.


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RE: Feedback for awkard layout

If the 48 in depth of peninsula is the result of a full depth[24 in] deep cab on the back side being inserted,try to take a look at the wall space above the 3 chairs sitting by the passage . Place some "lift up" cabinets on the wall to add the storage. The lift up style cabs look quite good in a solo situation. Reduce the 48 in peninsula depth-and take the awkward cabinets off the post.


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RE: Feedback for awkard layout

JerryNC, there is a post at the end of my peninsula, and it looks fine. I would not extend it beyond unless you really need the extra bar seating for family. However, enclose the post so that it becomes more a part of the peninsula. Bring the bar side up to the end of the post. My post is fully integrated, not just standing out there by itself with the counter suddenly butting up to it. That would look better. Also, my counter height bar is 14" deep which is a comfortable seating depth. That very wide counter is a favorite part of my remodel, a real workhorse in a small kitchen as constantly moving things back into the bar area as more room is needed for prepping.


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RE: Feedback for awkard layout

Under $10K, which means we are keeping a post when removing the wall instead of the expense of a laminated beam all the way across. Will be keeping existing appliances and cabinets. The proposed U plan (below) bids came in around $6K plus 66 foot of solid surface countertop.

I would raid the solid surface countertop fund to pay for getting rid of that post. Makes so much more sense to pay to get the infrastructure right. Now, when it's easy. Spendy superficial stuff, like solid surface countertops, can wait. Especially because counters are easy to change at a later date.


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RE: Feedback for awkard layout

With post removed, I would like feedback on this L using the full 21 foot side wall, with island facing stove and fridge. This does reuse all existing cabinets except 1 12 in wall. Thanks


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What happened to your goal of a TV sitting area if you go with the L and 21 ft. side wall? You seem unclear now regarding your primary objectives. Also, could you post this kitchen area in relation to the rest of the floor plan as an earlier poster requested? I personally think the layout with the post at the end of the peninsula is the most space efficient. If one bar stool is placed at the end of the peninsula and the other two are scooted down a little with the base cabinet width reduced to one door, then no one would be staring directly at the support beam and conversation flow would be improved. Also, nix the wall cabinets on the support structure. There is enough space on the sitting area side that the post will only appear as a demarcation between the two spaces rather than an eyesore. But the primary issue is your goals and budget as to what will best work for you.


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OK Post is gone, Feedback for awkard layout

Thanks for all the advice so far. Have not been able to draw the whole first floor layout as requested. Using the NKBA design tool. If removing the post is what it takes to get the island, will cut corners elsewhere, most likely countertops. Trying to convince wife to try granite or large porcelain tile, but might just stick with Formica. Using a 3 foot wide island, I would have at least 42 inches all around. We currently have 2 microwaves, so one on counter. vent over range, wall mw by sink.


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You might try to get up to speed on another modeling tool. I used SketchUp. It took a bit of time to get the hang of it but it was a great investment as I played with all kinds of things (color, finishes, furnishing, lighting, etc.).

Formica is a great option. There are new Formica products out there that look very, very much like real stone. I think it's called Formica180 or something.


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What a difference it makes to have the post removed. I could work really well in this kitchen with the island and the other placements you have now.

You might be able to shop around and still get granite or other solid surface for the counter tops. Looks like you potentially could re-use what you have for the perimeter and then just add granite on the island. Then later when you save up more replace the perimeter.

You could just do a hand sketch with rough dimensions and post that of the overall house layout. Scan it or take a picture of it and upload.


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RE: Feedback for awkard layout

Just got some bad news about the cost of roof replacement which will seriously cut into kitchen budget. Rather than wait, I have restructured going with a pass thru instead of fully removing the load bearing wall. It gets the appliances to where I ultimately want them to be, provides light into the den area and provides some dine-in seating room. New countertops and backsplash will also have to wait.


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RE: Feedback for awkard layout

Different view


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