I'm no expert, but IMHO I would switch the cleanup sink and the range. You've got a long way to run between the range and the refridge and pantry, but pass two different sinks along the way--why bother with both? In your setup, anybody cleaning up will be in the way of anybody cooking. You eliminate those problems by making the switch, plus, this way the view from your sink will be out your backyard.

Of course, that leaves the hutch even further away from the DW than it already is, but whether that matters depends on what you use it for.

The current setup has a couple of issues.

First, as Marcolo pointed out, the arrangement of your appliances & fixtures will result in a lot of Zone-crossing. You have to cross the Cleanup Zone every time you need to get to the refrigerator from the Cooking Zone or go from the Prep Zone to the Cooking Zone. Think about one or two open DWs in that path while you're running back & forth. With the refrigerator & range so far apart, you will be getting a lot of exercise for every cooking/baking project!

Second, your island is currently a "barrier island" b/w the refrigerator and range.

As Marcolo suggested, I also recommend you switch the main/cleanup sink and range. Not only will you have a nice view out the back from the sink, but you can flank the range with windows and make that wall of windows + nice hood a focal point. It will look nicer than the kitchen sink with dirty dishes.

This new setup will now allow your kitchen to follow the normal Kitchen workflow...

Refrigerator/Pantry --> Prep Zone (prep sink, trash/recycle, work zone) --> Cooking Zone (range) --> Cleanup Zone (main sink, DW, dish storage)

Oh, and you will have a nice run of counter on each side of the range for both a Prep Zone and Baking Center!

I like a lot of the bones, especially the garage entry. It's a little awkward walking the laundry around the dining room to the washer and back, but nothing really bad. I don't suppose there's room in the house or budget for a dumbwaiter?

The big problem with the kitchen proper is the "three points" design of the sink, fridge and stove on different walls. That won't work. If that's a prep sink where the blue square is, that helps, but 14 feet between stove and fridge, with an island in between, is a no go. I just spent a lot of money and aggravation getting rid of that kind of trek.

What Marcolo says really sums it up. The kitchen isn't "too big" but the layout is. Since you're building you should be able to vent the range on the wall where the sink is. If you want to do a fixed window backsplash (or even an opening one, a la Cotehele (I think)), it would be a much better arrangement.

Re the island, I have a similar U with island in my new kitchen. There's 41" between the handle on my 30" fridge and the edge of the island, 44" from the door front to island top. It's perfectly fine, though there's no room for anyone to pass while the fridge is open. The same with my wall ovens on the other side. It still feels spacious and open to me. I wouldn't do it with a 36" fridge, however--not in a kitchen as big as yours, where you have a choice. And be sure to count from the handle as well as the body.

I'm pretty sure you don't have enough comfortable space for all the chairs and stools in the breakfast area. That's 14 feet? 3' for the stools and each of the chairs is 9', plus 3' for a small table is 12'. Without any passing area. Take off a foot if no one is sitting both the table and island at the same time, and you still only have 3' for passing room on both sides of the table. And that's with people seated right up to the fireplace and people sidling by. So no fire while people are seated, and really good heat shields, so residual heat isn't a problem, and why do we have a fire we can't light? Right?

If I were you, I'd use a piece of furniture for the room divider, that could be moved if need be, or even if you want to feed mobs. It's easy to rent tables and chairs. Space to put them is golden!

I like the comments that everyone is making...they are so good at this, aren't they?!

My only other suggestion might be to use the room divider (between breakfast area and family room)as the back of a bench for your breakfast table. You could seat a good sized group at a table with a 6' bench on one side of it and chairs on the other. Plus gain lots of bulk storage in the bench, as well.

Also, if it were me, I would place the washer/dryer along the back wall of the laundry room, switching its' location with the sink there. The piles of laundry tend to accumilate near the machines and that would encourage a cleaner path in the room.

Sandy

Laundry Room...I like BusyBMe's suggestion for the Laundry Room and I'll add that I would then put in a door b/w the "Mudroom" part of that room and the "Laundry" part. I would not want people coming in and seeing my dirty laundry on the floor! One of my biggest dislikes is the combination Mudroom/Laundry Room design. If you have to do it, then at least separate them w/a door so your dirty laundry is private!

Looking at it without reading through the others' ideas, I wanted to swap the stove and cleanup area, too. The prep sink and fridge need a better relationship to the stove.

What will the hutch hold? If dishes, it seems too far from the dishwashers. Stacking plates to carry to put away is one thing, but glasses cups and other odds and ends mean carrying 1 or 2 things at a time, back and forth from dishwasher to hutch.

Now that I have one, I prefer a laundry area closer to the bedrooms...but for this type, I like your mudroom and laundry layout.

Something I don't normally comment on, but the cubbies may make a pinch point in the relatively narrow hall?

Also, the 48" ref within two feet of the corner may not work out well because of countertop overhangs and cabinet knobs. At best, it will be difficult to use the corner for anything more than an appliance garage. Them elbows gotta be somewhere...

I agree with the consensus on switching the range and the sinks. You could have a grand focal point that is centered on both the island and the fireplace. You could forgo uppers on that wall and have the range flanked by windows to the counter. I would probably have full depth counters the whole leg of the fridge side. Otherwise that corner could indeed be tricky, as bmore pointed out. I like the 2 dishwashers flanking the sink, but I don't understand why there are 2 sinks and a separate prep sink. Are you just picturing a double bowl sink? In your case, maybe you can have one very large sink, even a drainboard sink, and then a useful-sized (ie not tiny) prep sink in the island.

As for the rest of the plan, I think the cubbies are fine. They are not often actually 2' deep, so you'll likely have more room. The w/d should move to the short end of the L and you should consider having a place on the small blank wall for hanging clothes that don't get put in the dryer. The open fp will be lovely.

Thanks for all of the responses! I knew something wasn't right but couldn't really see what was bugging me.

It seems switching the range and main sink is the majority vote, which I have done. I reduced the size of the hutch to 5 ft from 6 ft in order to have more space in the corner next to the fridge. I plan to use the hutch for display and a coffee bar.

I also moved a dw to the island, but I'm not completely convinced I want it there as it would interfere with the range when either door was open. I planned on one dw being drawers so that might work in this space. It does make it more convenient to put away items from the other side of the kitchen though. What do you think?

Where should the microwave go? We have one in our island now which I dislike. I would rather have it at eye level. Should I put it in the newly opened space next to the fridge?

The main prep sink will be a 36" copper farm sink.

Yes or know to the double sided fireplace?

Thanks for your ideas!

Oops, that should read "yes or no to the double side fireplace". So much for proofreading...

I don't know if it would really offer you any significant advantages or not but an option would be to have the pantry open into the laundry room (on the short end of the pantry) instead of into the kitchen, move the counter beside of the fridge to where the pantry door currently is, make a door from the kitchen to the laundry/pantry area where the counter used to be. That would eliminate a corner and may make it easier to "get to" the laundry.

I encourage you NOT to split your dishwashers. I did it once. Seemed logical. Didn't work well at all. And I certainly wouldn't want one whose door conflicted with the range.

This is much better. The fridge and prep sink not only serve the cook at the range, but also serve what is good baking workspace in the corner, and the coffee hutch. And I see room for dishes.

Move the dw so it's flanking the sink and I see what I'd consider a winning layout! :-) I love the dbl sided fireplace.

If you're going to use the hutch as a snack center and coffeee bar, it's fine. But for dish storage, you're realistically going to be using the top of the kitchen. It's too far to walk to the hutch from the cleanup sink.

Your 1st and 2nd layouts really made me think about mine.
I'm going to go against the wiser people, but here are my thoughts.

How do you/your family cook?
For me, I want my own space. I do the RachelRay thing and get all my food from the fridge first. So referring to your 1st layout, my space would be between the range and the sink. I'd prep there and cook there. My DW (as draining rack) would be for the knives and bowls that I wash when I'm done prepping. I hardly bake food; DH bakes cookies/cakes.

My DH/2 kids would use the other side (fridge to sink area, MW/wall-oven next to fridge) for their sandwich preps, cook up oatmeal, toast and coffee, bake cookies.
That's also their clean up side, w/ the washing DW that they load/unload.

So by switching to layout #2, DH and kids will be on both sides of me/range.

Ditto on rhome's statement on keeping the DWs together. My friend had the 2nd one next to the prep sink and she almost never used it or got confused which one was dirty/clean, whatever.

Amanda

As a fireplace, I love a double-sided FP and the fact that you can see the fire from the Kitchen...but, I think it will limit greatly what you can do in that area for table space b/c you won't be able to put your table or chairs very close to it, which means pushing the table space toward the kitchen and crowding the island, especially if you have seating at the island.

A thought...have you considered a "T" island with the leg of the "T" a table-height counter that's approx 3' deep? That would eliminate the need for the extra aisle space b/w the island and table so there's plenty of room for the double-sided FP. If it were me, I'd probably do that b/c I'd really like to keep the FP! An added benefit is that your seating would double as in-kitchen as well as family meal seating b/c of location, height of counter/table, and a configuration that allows for conversation. Does this all make sense?

If the leg of the "T" is 7' long, that allows seating for 7 + approx 7' b/w the table & FP...plenty of room!

We have a double-sided fireplace between our kitchen eating area and living room and LOVE it!

Anne

I also think the fireplace is good looking--but I really don't think you have room for a table and stools there, as I said above.

I really like Buehl's idea of the T shape which keeps the fireplace by eliminating two rows of seating., but I'd do it with a table edge on to the island, rather than a built in table, so that it could be moved for using the island as a buffet, project area, or whatever.

Our current breakfast room is 10x14'6". From the back wall to the edge of the island where our stools are currently is 10 ft and we have plenty of room.

On the 14 ft side we have at least 5 ft on either side.

I'm just having a hard time imagining that 14' isn't enough space.

Would turning the island the other way help? It would be 2 ft longer than it is currently but the stools would be relocated to the fridge side. I could do away with the stools altogether but my son likes to sit there and do homework while I prepare dinner.

The difference in your new kitchen is the safety zone you have to maintain around the FP (assuming you go with the 2-sided FP) as well as the aisle space b/w the seats & table seating.

Incorporating Plllog's idea, here's what I was thinking:

With Plllog's idea of pushing a table against the island, it allows you to put in an extra cabinet on the island.

The table you show in your pic is quite small...how big is it? Perhaps it would fit, but I'm not sure.

If you entertain a lot, I'd be really cautious about shrinking the size of either end aisle.

Fireplace...

If gas, then you need about 5 feet from table edge to fireplace and about 5 feet from table edge to island counter edge. My poor math skills say that the maximum table is 4 feet. This is about the same clearances you have with the same table.

Things you can do about it that I can think of are:

Shrink the width?depth of the island cabinets to 36" with a counter top of 39" on top. This saves about a foot.

Eliminate the seating at the island. This saves about a foot you can add to the table and still have adequate walkways.

Use a round table.

Use a table with leaves if its just to occasionally crunch in another person or two.

Use a single sided fireplace and push the table up to the wall - with chairs normally on three sides. If you get a crowd, move it out from the wall to add an extra.

Buehl,

Thank you! I can't believe you took the time to do that. I spent last night drawing elevations after all the advice and came up with something very similar to what you have for the perimeter cabinets.

Our table is a 48" square antique farm table so it would meet bmore's suggestions for space clearance. We currently have 5 ft from the table edge to each side wall and 3 ft from the table to the back wall and 3 ft to the island edge. I'm guessing I can wait until it is framed out and then decide. I could always just use the back of the fireplace as a focal point and have it completely covered in stone on all sides.

We have 3 children. The oldest leaves for college this fall and the middle child does competition sports and trains 5 days a week 3.5 hours a day. So, for the most part it is only the youngest and myself at home. I do all of the cooking and DH helps with clean-up.

I like the idea of the table pushed up against the island rather than permanently attached, but our current table would not be substantial enough to pull this off. It may be time for a new table!

Anyway here are my elevations...If you'll remember from my earlier thread I am leaning toward a combination of three cabinet colors; white, blue/green/gray, and stained wood.

Wow, did you actually draw each of those subway tiles in Excel?!?

OK, others will give you answers about cab layout. I just have some random thoughts.

I just wanted to suggest you think about making the pantry door a double door. It will likely stay open a lot, and may get in the way no matter which way it swings. And if it swings toward the refridge door, that's extra bad.

The glass shelving is nice, but remember to consider what you're really going to put in that hutch. You've got dish storage opposite. If you use this for fancy dishes, holiday tablew are, display ware, etc., I think you're good. Just remember a coffeee station should have coffeee, water, filters, measuring spoons, grinders (if you use one) and cups nearby. If it were me, I'd make the whole thing a wet bar with another bar sink and DW drawer, but that's just me. Or possibly, me and johnliu, but anyway. You could also do a built-in coffeee maker.

Your range is going to have to command a major view, so give it major presence. I understand these are rough, but I think you can/should do a big-impact hood, a big-impact backsplash over the range, etc. As well as windows right down to the counter, if you can.

It is very similar! I see you have a blind cabinet, are you sure about that? A corner susan is usually a better use of space. You can store all your pots & pans in one, most of your small appliances, etc. I was thinking the 12" cabinet b/w the sink & corner (in my layout) could be tray storage for cooling racks, cookie sheets, and muffin tins. OR, it could be a one-bin trash pullout.

Prep sink...since you will most likely use the island for your refrigerator landing space, counter space b/w the refrigerator & sink on the island will be very useful. It also allows you to work on either side of the sink (or have two working there). In that 18" cabinet b/w the sink & island edge, I was envisioning cutting board storage and possibly shallow baking dish storage.

[Why will the island be used for landing space? Because that's where prep is going to take place and b/c the right ref door will block access to the counter on the right...besides, I find landing space in front of a refrigerator much more useful than on the side...as long as the counter in front isn't more than 4' away.]

Island...You only need 18" for a double-bin trash/recycle pullout. Those extra 3", IMHO, are wasted in a 21" pullout. (3-bin "recycle centers require either a 24" cabinet or a 36" corner susan-type cabinet.) So, I would reduce it to 18".

Are you planning a large prep sink? If so, then the 27" sink base is probably OK...you might be able to use a 24" and gain another 3" of more usable cabinet space elsewhere. (Maybe combine it with the other 3" and maybe 3" off the 36' to give you a 9" tray cabinet.)

Windows...Definitely put those down to the counter! They'll be much nicer, bring in more light & view, and will be easier to tile around!

Island Seating...How deep is the seating overhang on the island? NKBA Guidelines recommend a minimum of 15" for counter-height seating.

I wanted to thank everyone for the responses. The last few weeks have been busy and I just managed to work on this again. I've incorporated your responses and came up with the following floor plan...

I am considering distressed cherry for the coffee bar and sink base, as well as the dishwasher fronts. A blue/green/gray with brown glaze for the island and laundry. And a soft white for the remaining kitchen cabinets.

The color scheme...

Pretty palette! Question: Was the location of the sink on the island already discussed above? I ask because with the trash where it is, I'm not seeing where you scrape dishes before rinsing or putting in the dishwasher. Would it work better with the trash closer to the cleanup sink?

Another question: do you really have that many pots and pans? LOL.

I would consider using a Susan rather than pullouts. I have a super susan, with attached doors, and it is beyond belief how much fits into it. Extremely convenient.

Also: Again, think about making that coffee bar convenient. Can you add water? Is there a place for grounds disposal? The walk to the trash is rather long holding a cone of wet grounds.

Marcolo,

Thanks for checking in again and yes I did draw the subways in excel, but only a few, then I copied and pasted. I like your idea of double doors on the pantry.

No, I do not have that many pots and pans, however, I remembered when I ordered cabinets for our current house that the larger three drawer cabinets were referred to as pot and pan drawers which was the only point I was trying to get across. I guess it would have made more sense to label them for what I would put in them but I just didn't think of it at the time. I love having all drawers in the lower cabinets and use them for tupperware, baking dishes, etc. which is even more important since there aren't that many wall cabinets due to all the windows we've added.

I plan to keep pretty everyday dishes in the dish hutch along with drinking glasses and some serving bowls. I'll keep plastic lunch plates and kids cups in the drawers below, along with silverware. I actually changed the drawer base to the right of the main sink to a four drawer base for plastic wrap, cookie cutters, etc. Pots and pans will go on either side of the range, along with baking dishes. The blind corners would be used for the crock pot, blender, fry daddy etc.

I see what you mean about the trash, and with a family of five we fill ours up daily. We would have a garbage disposal on the main sink so most scrapings would go there. I had the prep sink at the end of the island closest to the fridge, but it was pointed out earlier that I was blocking landing space for fridge items, so it was moved to the center. If I moved the trash to the opposite side it could serve the clean up area and then add one to the coffeebar to serve that area and the breakfast table?

For the coffee bar I was considering a pot filler. I thought this would be a creative way to get water to that area for filling the coffee pot but not have to put in a third sink. Plus I like the idea of just swinging it out and running water directly into the water reservoir on the coffee pot. I think the built in units are not in my budget. I have a $130 Cuisinart. LOL. Mugs, filters, etc would go in a drawer here. The glass fronted uppers would be used to showcase a few chunky pieces of pottery. Honestly, I think I'll have more cabinet space than I'll ever use.

For the range hood I would really like copper, along with a copper farm sink and undermount prep sink. Of course, copper range hoods are out of my price "range"(ha-ha) , so I am considering having one made by covering a plywood frame with copper sheathing and then having a wide piece of moulding from the cabinet manufacturer along the bottom.

Lots to think about. I love hearing everyone's ideas though, since we hope to be in this home for a long time.

homeagain - just a thought on your fireplace, do you like the idea of a barrier between the family room and the kitchen? I really like to have an open flow between those two rooms, for both family time and entertaining (we entertain casually, but I know some people like more separation for their kitchen) - my husband does most of the cooking and line of site between the kitchen and tv, drove our decisions :)

Plan comments.

R U sure you don't want water/trash at the coffee bar/bar?
I would flush the pantry door with the line of the cabinet fronts, but have it open into the pantry. It's personal taste - looks better tome than the dip back to the door.

Small, technical comments.

In something like the range wall - with a corner on both ends, you need to allow for a filler(or extended stile) somewhere. Walls are not perfectly square and plumb. In your plan, you could choose to shorten the blind corners - sometimes they are made at 45" long anyway to allow you to adjust them for a perfect fit.

In the other direction, you may also need a filler on the side of the blind corners towards the ref and the sink. It permits both sets of doors/drawers to open past the handles of the cabinets on the other side of the corner. Discuss with your cabinet company - those P&P drawers may need some size adjustment.

I am doing double trash cans in one cabinet base in my island and having another one just for recycleables - cans and glass, plus magazines and newspapers on the far side of the island.

Your coffee bar sounds nice. I don't think you need a pot filler there, especially without a sink. Murphy's law says that would be a big problem at some point. Besides, it would just run up your plumbing bill. In my area, that pot filler alone would cost $1000 to plumb :(