I don't think you have enough space to have seating in the aisle with the refrigerator, at least with your current plan. The NKBA recommendation is 44" aisle width with no appliances behind it, and you're not even quite at that. It will be really difficult to open the refrigerator if a person is sitting in that seat, and you wouldn't be able to use the microwave and toaster oven easily either. (Remember that seats don't stay tucked in when people are in them, so you have to factor in extra space.) Also, I seem to recall from your other thread that you have a family member who uses a walker? If so, I definitely wouldn't put seating in the aisle that s/he would be using to get to the microwave/toaster/fridge, since that seems like an accident waiting to happen if a stool isn't quite pushed in all the way.

I think it's a real challenge to have an open floorplan kitchen if you also have a goal of keeping some areas separate (for the dog-free zone). We did the inverse of this---designed in order to be able to keep our big dog *in* the kitchen when necessary!---and really couldn't find a way to open up the space and still be able to secure the dog. The best solution I've seen was a banquette that had a built-in "door" that slid across to hook onto an peninsula across the aisle to close the eating space off (in their particular layout it was used to keep a dog in, but it would work equally well to keep a dog out). If you're open to having things a little more closed off from the living room, something along those lines might be an option for you.

I'm not a great layout person, but here's what I'd play with: if you can, take out the wall between the hallway and kitchen and keep a header beam there with whatever support is necessary (architect could fill in details). Then maybe explore a larger island with a rounded table attached that would reach into the living room (I'm not describing this well, but my parents have it in their house and it works very nicely; the table is slightly lower than the main counter and forms sort of a three-quarters circle). If possible, I'd get the fridge on the same wall as the sink to get it out of the aisle (but I see that it's very large so that might not be possible---could fridge or freezer drawers help to supplement so you could drop down to a standard sized fridge?) On the wall where the fridge is in this drawing, I'd do shallow cabinets (12-15" deep) so that you can have an aisle in there. For the dog, I'd devise some sort of a pullout barrier that would meet the walls on either side so that the table area and the living room are in the "dog free" zone and the dog has free run of the rest of the house. Not sure if that would work for how you use the space, but would be one way to address that need. I think it's more important to get the right layout first independent of the dog factor, though; after you find your layout, think creatively about how some of the seating can be dog-free space. But I think if you let that drive your thinking, it's going to be really difficult to get outside of that box. HTH!

And here's a second layout. This one moves the stove to the wall and frees up the peninsula completely. Front wall is tight and if the freezer door is opened past 90degrees it extends slightly into the front entry (actually, so does our current fridge :-).

With this one, I'd probably also move the microwave drawer to the island opposite the fridge. Toaster oven would have to sit somewhere. Maybe on the island against the entry wall?

3D view. Notice that I put a short (12in) overhang on the side of the island where the freestanding table tucks in. This is so we can move the table out and still have a slightly usable seating area. Not great, but ... The in-the-kitchen island overhang opposite the stove is 18 inches (will need to support it with a solid panel on each end, I think and supports. Counter material is totally up in the air. Wood is not out of the question if it makes this overhang possible).

You need to account for those stools being scootched out and people sitting there. that's going to bring them out at least a foot. There's not enough space in either layout with equipment behind it be it frig or stove. Since the overhang on does not provide any additional counter space why not eliminate it and extend the free standing table?

Very good point remodelfla -- that does make the second layout better since the person at the stove is just barely out of the aisle with the stools. It could be scootched a bit more toward the sink. MW oven drawer definitely moves to island area opposite fridge.

We want contiguous counter-height prep area and with both major cooks over 5'8" tall, we've already tested heights and neither likes working at table height for the prep we do. (very rare baking -- we knead by machine those few times we do). The freestanding table is for use by those who can't get up on counter-height chairs.

The oven is actually our least-used appliance. Maybe once a month. Maybe. The stovetop, toaster oven, and MW are used daily.

But I think I'll try some layouts without that part. However, Mr. chef had a good idea about what to do with that part of the counter: put a cookbook enclave under it, with the bottom shelf empty for foot kicking space. Like this (probably solid side walls, not pillars):

artemis78 -- we're totally on the same page with the fridge door swing issue. I was already working on squeezing the fridge and sink together while you posted. See new plan above. Also, last time I posted a no-hallway option people here screamed in pain about resale value and having the front entry through the kitchen. See why we were exploring such options! Mr. Chef likes how you think since he is a proponent of ditching the rules about entering the house 'in' the kitchen.

Pushing the front of house forward sure seems desirable (even though it is expensive: moving the roof line and all and redoing the front porch and decent-looking stamped concrete finished wheelchair ramp).

BTW, by 'dog free zone' we don't mean being able to close it off completely, just that there is at least a few seats 'in' the kitchen with somewhat narrow entries (4' or less). Our dog generally obeys commands to stay out of the kitchen when we are in the vicinity.

I think the second is preferable to the first. It gets the range off the island. I realize it is tight quarters with the counter seating but are people really going to be going in and out of the oven and cooking while people are seated at that area anyway? Its a residential kitchen in a small house,,,not a diner or a set up for a cooking demonstration.

You could take up the entire existing kitchen space and LR space trying to fulfill all the NKBA recommendations.

I would think people would sit at the table preferentially and at the counter as overflow and Not during meal preparation.

I think the narrow counter could also serve as a prep area for the range and perhaps the island should have a sink with a cover on it for prep. In a small house there has to be a certain amount of paradigm shifting when it comes to how spaces are going to function. We did a kitchen in a house that was 12 feet wide. There is a peninsula along a hallway outside the kitchen and the countertop overhangs by 12". It is not meant for nor is it comfortable for adults to sit there for long periods but the kids will sit in the hall at the counter while the grownups work in the kitchen, and sometimes an adult will stand or sit in the hall on a stool and do prep (there are 5 sisters and they sometimes all cook in this kitchen, and it works because of the flex space.)

There are actually two houses joined so the entry into the kitchen is from the other house, but the maximum allowable space for the kitchen was 11' x 9-1/2" --the flex space from the hall adds to the function.

The hallway can be seen to the upper left. The fridge out of the frame at the lower left and its door also swings into the doorway to the kitchen. The DW is out of the frame to the lower right. There is a range hood behind the upper cabinet.

You are completely correct that we aren't going to get perfect here, palimpsest! 12' wide house. Woah.

It turns out that we do cook at the stove (but not the oven) and do prep with people seated in the kitchen (and hands-on demos)already in a cramped kitchen -- BUT with much less clearance now than is any of these layouts that have been proposed. They are all really big improvements space-wise for us. Our cooking style will happen whether or not we improve the kitchen.

We are getting lots of great ideas -- I like the covered prep sink idea .... We're also considering a main sink like the Rachiele 'smart sink' to make prep right at the sink possible. The more flexible, the better!

Help me! Mr. Chef wants a window behind the stove with the sill starting above backsplash as a pot/pan shelf. Why is this a bad idea? (He's reading over my shoulder).

By code, you might not be able to have a window behind the range.

And I'm still confused by the dog issue. Is it not enough if the dogs are outside or otherwise sequestered when these friends are visiting? Or is that you don't wish to sequester the dogs and the visitors want a table high enough to avoid dog surfing? Or is it the fact that there are dogs at all -- even if sequestered -- and they don't want to eat in a room where dogs have ever sat on the furniture, etc? I'm honestly curious, because I've never run into this before. And I simultaneously can't imagine either giving my dog the run of the house while dog-phobic friends are present, or having to design my kitchen around a few guests.

All that being said, when the dog-phobic are present, let's assume they sit at the table. Is everyone else behind them, in the living room at TV trays? Because it doesn't make any sense that way. It's like they're sitting in the corner. Or is everyone else (no more than three) on the stools?

Sorry to hijack, but palimpsest - was that house a shotgun? Great kitchen!

jakabedy: 2 of our very good longterm (decades) friends (who rarely visit at the same time) don't mind being in the same house with dogs, but don't want him to come up and touch them. These friends visit up to several times a week in our kitchen (we go out together as well, but then it's not an issue). Our dog is an inside dog and we do put him in a room regularly, but would strongly prefer not to when these friends visit (since it is so often). Right now it works out great: the friends go directly to the kitchen (or the office) and we visit. The dog obeys our direction to stay out of the room. Everyone is happy. We want the same for the new kitchen. Besides -- the dog sheds terrifically and being able to keep the dog out helps for food prep (dog is confined when we leave the house).

Can the wall between the living room and bedrooms come out? Can you add on to the front of the house.. if so how far forward can you go? How do you feel about a banquette?

Another layout! I think this may be along the lines of what remodelfla was suggesting. It simplifies the main island (squares it off) while still retaining space for 2 counter-height stools (that can almost be tucked fully under the counter) at the island across the wall from the stove.

The 18 inch overhang is around both the far side of the kitchen and the right side of the island. Move the freestanding table away, and there is seating for 6 around the island plus the table seating. Move the table over and one can completely block the kitchen entry. The table is an expandable one. It both folds out and has the option to add leaves.

Without the permanent L, I've made the upper passage 4' wide which brings the stove and oven out of way of any counter sitters. For more compact space, the freestanding table can be tucked 18in under the island giving more living room space.

Given our need for flexibility, this seems a strong option. There is room for one 24" segment of cool undercounter book storage (it's OK if they get a little grungy and bumped -- they already are!).

A full height cabinet is at the end for balance, for easy-access storage of essentials for our older family member, and to give us a place to tuck the ugly toaster oven.

Floor plan:

And 3D view:

The house is (a pair of) 150-ish year old row houses. The lots in this area at one time went down to 10 in width leaving you with a 9 foot interior. If you have an empty lot of this size now, it is unbuildable. I believe the minimum is 15 feet width. The clients bought these houses because they came as a package with three separately deeded, contiguous unbuildable lots that would have to be redeeded to build upon.

Here is one of those narrow houses for sale. This is the entire width of the house, probably with a realtor's wide angle lens:

Exterior. Width = door to gutter.