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kaysd_gw

1st attempt at design plan - please give feedback

kaysd
13 years ago

Thank you in advance for your time and any advice you can give me. This is my first attempt to post a layout (I just signed up for Photobucket today). We hired an architect because we are opening up a structural wall and adding another wall. He gave us plans for a proposed kitchen layout, but I am not in love with his plan. I have tried to draw up my own plans, and could use some feedback please.

My plans are hand drawn, so I am going to give an explanation of each wall in case the drawings are hard to interpret. Sorry if this post is too wordy.

Plans are in Photobucket - I hope this link works: http://s1118.photobucket.com/albums/k604/Kay-SD/

General Notes:

1. The west end of the kitchen currently has a wall dividing the kitchen from the combination living and dining room, which is approximately 18' wide x 33' long. We plan to open up a section of that wall approximately 8' high x 12' wide to open the flow between the living areas. The current kitchen feels so dark and closed off. When we are cooking, we want to be able to watch the kids playing in the living room and enjoy the views from the living and dining room windows. There are ocean views to the west and ocean and bay views to the south. The views are a bit better than what is shown in the photo since we trimmed the hedges shorter. The dining room table and china cabinet will be near the kitchen, and the living room furniture is at the west end of the great room.

2. The kitchen currently has a small family room at its east end. We plan to put up a wall to turn that into a small guest room. Our architect drew up preliminary sketches with a kitchen depth (east-west) of 15' and kitchen width of approximately 14' (north-south). 15' is the maximum depth as the bedroom on the other side of the new east wall cannot be made any smaller than that; the kitchen depth could be less than 15'.

3. The main hallway of the house is on the other side of the north wall of the kitchen. There is a 46" wide space (including walls) between the kitchen wall and the hallway wall, which currently houses the wall ovens and a poorly designed walk-in pantry. Our intent is to widen that area to 51" (by taking 5" from the kitchen, versus the 9" the architect wanted to take), and having a 6-6.5' wide reach-in pantry (with 16-18" deep shelves) and 30" wide x 24" deep wall ovens on the kitchen side. From the hall side, there would be a 24" deep closet the same length as the pantry and a 16-18" deep broom closet behind the wall ovens.

4. The kitchen window cannot be moved due to costs and the view. The garden-style kitchen window has a view of the water and downtown skyline. If the window were moved east to center it on the south wall of the kitchen, the view would be blocked by the neighbor's house.

5. The house is a 1960 California ranch style with some modern lines, such as large horizontal windows and vaulted ceilings with wood beams and wood tongue and groove paneling between beams. Our living and dining room furniture is more traditional, so the kitchen needs to blend those styles. We plan to use walnut cabinets with modern lines. We plan to break up the potential "dark and heavy" feel of the walnut by using frosted glass panels in the upper cabinets and some of the tall cabinets, stainless steel appliances, and perhaps metallic accents on the crown moldings and/or toe kicks.

6. I am 5'10" and DH is 6' tall.

7. We have a two-year-old child and a second on the way, so some upper cabinet storage for dishes and other breakables is essential. I love the look of kitchens with no uppers, but do not think it will work for us.

8. All tall cabinets and upper cabinets shown in the sketches stop at approximately 7'4" above the floor before the crown molding is added (height of molding TBD).

Cabinet and Appliance Notes for Specific Walls:

East wall:

This wall faces the living and dining areas. We like the idea of any entire wall of appliances and tall cabinetry. As shown in the sketches, we are considering adding a 27" x 27" vertical "column" (made of drywall) to fill in the southeast corner of the room. This would allow tall cabinets to run all the way across the east wall, prevent the need for corner cabinets, and allow the south and east walls to be treated as separate, rather than intersecting lines of cabinets. With the corner "column," there is 12' of space on this wall; including the corner is 14' 3"

We would like to use stainless steel appliances and glass to balance the darkness of the walnut on this wall. Our idea is to have a 24" wide wine tower with glass door and walnut frame in the center of the wall, flanked by 30" wide stainless steel refrigerator and freezer columns. There would be a thin walnut frame surrounding the three columns. On each side of the row of cooling appliances would be a tall column of cabinetry approximately 27" wide. The column of cabinetry on the right (south) side would house a 27" wide x 19" tall GE Advantium speedoven/microwave. We would like the bottom of the microwave to be 36-45" off the floor. There would be drawers below the microwave and cabinets with frosted glass fronts above it. A similar arrangement would be done on the other side for symmetry (we are not sure what to put in place of the microwave on the other side, perhaps a lift door made of either wood or metal below the glass cabinets).

South wall:

The garden window is 71" wide. We plan to use a single bowl sink, approximately 30-34" wide, centered under the window. The lower cabinets would be in walnut with a mix of doors and drawers. The dishwasher needs to be on this run; we will likely use a stainless steel dishwasher panel to break up the walnut. The upper cabinets will have frosted glass fronts with walnut frames. This wall is 12' 9" with the corner beam; 15' without.

North wall:

There is an approximately 9' 5" long section of recessed wall space available. We would like the 30" wide double ovens stacked on the right end of this wall. (The combined height of the ovens is approximately 45" and we would like them to be approximately 20" off the floor.) The ovens can be placed directly in the wall, or in a column of cabinetry with drawers below and vertical tray storage above. The rest of the wall space should be dedicated to a reach-in pantry with 16-18" deep shelves. We are considering tall frosted glass and walnut doors that mimic the upper cabinets and look a bit like French doors. The doors could either be two pairs of doors or bifold doors. The interior of the pantry does not need to be a finished cabinet; it could be simple painted shelves attached to drywall walls.

Island:

The maximum size for the island is 9' x 4.5'. The island will be our main prep space. It is also the primary landing space for the wall ovens and fridge/freezer columns. We would like seating for 4 people. We would like a 30" induction cooktop on the east or south side of the island. We do not want a sink in the island.

We are considering the rectangular island with curved counter at one end that I drew. We are also considering a variation on the island design the architect presented. We would flip his island so the curved seating area is on the northwest corner, rather than the southwest corner, and make the countertop all one height. We would like the island to be 38-40" tall (we are using the standard 36" height on the lowers on the south wall). In my drawing, there is a 4' wide aisle on all sides of the island. I am hoping 4' is enough for 2 people to work back-to-back at stove and sink. It is possible the aisle could be reduced to 42-45" between the island and fridge wall. We are open to other shapes that might work better, but prefer the island all at one height.

Appliance Selections:

Refrigeration: Thermador Freedom columns:

30" fresh food column (T30IR70NSP) with flush stainless steel door panel. Cabinet height is 84" including 4" high toekick. Depth is 24" plus �" door panel.

30" freezer column (T30IF70NSP) with flush stainless steel door panel. (The 24" freezer column would be big enough for our needs, but we like the 30" for symmetry if it will be placed near the fresh food column.)

24" wine column (T24IW50NSP) with custom wood frame overlaid on glass door. [We could switch to 1 or 2 undercounter units if needed for a better floor plan.]

Cooking:

Double wall ovens: 30" combi-steam oven over 30" convection oven. Either Gaggenau BS 281 610 over BO 281 610 or Thermador MES301HP over POD301. Gaggenau steam oven is plumbed for water inlet and outlet; Thermador is not.

Induction Cooktop: 30" Gaggenau CX 480 FreeInduction (if we can obtain one in the U.S.) or 30" Thermador (CIT304GB).

Microwave: 27" GE Monogram Advantium (ZSC1001KSS).

Ventilation: Thermador downdraft (UCVM30FS). 31" wide x 3.5" deep. We are uncertain whether to use a remote, inline or integrated blower.

Dishwasher: 24" Bosch or KitchenAid.

Here is a link that might be useful: Plans

Comments (18)

  • marcolo
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Howdy! Welcome.

    First, island cooktops are not well-loved around here. Splattering diners. Lack of neighboring workspace. Venting issues.

    Second, the wall ovens are a fur piece away and have limited convenient landing space. It's always a challenge to have to pivot with a hot pan to an island, especially on a seating side.

    Third, what is that box thing in the corner? If you moved the range to the freezer/fridge wall, you'd find that thing right in your way.

    To post your other photos, just click on Direct Link in photo bucket, which will copy the URL thanks to some Photo bucket magic, then paste it into your message. In front of the address, write "img src=" and after the address, put a reverse carat. ">"

  • huango
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Ditto about no love for island cooktop: currently, I have a range in my peninsula (and no HOOD - crazy), and it renders my peninsula useless when I'm cooking (splatter/hot/burning children; at my friend's house, her son climb off the stool onto the cooktop).

    I would move the WO to the fridge wall and move the wine to the WO spot. This will remove the oven from the walk-way; not good w/ heavy hot tray w/ people going through the doorway. You want people drinking wine to be out of your work zone; they can linger on THAT side of the island.

    Where will you put trash?


    My thoughts:
    - move fridge/freezer to pantry wall, replacing pantry
    - move cooktop to where wine is
    - flank the cooktop w/ the tall cabinets w/ pantry on left, speedoven/WO on right
    - if you add a prep sink to the island (which you said you didn't want), you could grab ingredients from the fridge/freezer, plop onto island, prep there and turn 180 to cook on cooktop wall.
    - your south wall is the clean-up station.

    Good luck,
    Amanda

  • kaysd
    Original Author
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hi Marcolo and Amanda, thank you for your comments. I am going to try to post the individual wall elevations so the design plan is clearer for you and others, then I will address your specific questions and comments. Marcolo, thanks for posting the first picture and upload instructions.

    East wall:
    img src=http://i1118.photobucket.com/albums/k604/Kay-SD/MyEastWallPlan.jpg>;

    South wall:
    img src=http://i1118.photobucket.com/albums/k604/Kay-SD/MySouthWallPlan.jpg>;

    North wall:
    img src=http://i1118.photobucket.com/albums/k604/Kay-SD/MyNorthWallPlan.jpg>;

  • kaysd
    Original Author
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I followed Marcolo's instructions, but my images did not post. Is there another way to post images?

  • marcolo
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    You forgot the forward-facing carat in front of your HTML. "

  • malhgold
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    It appears to me that you have a nice big kitchen that is lacking in useful counter space. You have quite a bit of tall, and not a lot of counter. Where are you going to do all your prep? Where will you put the coffee maker, toaster oven? Think about where you will get your stuff together for breakfast and lunch. It seems to me that everyone is going to wind up working in the same area of the kitchen...in the section surrounding the sink and cooktop. I understand the "look" you're going for with that whole wall of tall, but I don't think it's going to function very well. What are you planning in those shallow drawers in the tall cabinets?

  • blfenton
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I too understand the look that you're going for but you only have 9' of counter with 2' of that taken up by the DW in what seems to be quite a big space. You can't really count the island as counter space because you have a range in the middle of it. Where will guests prepare what they bring or help you.(family dinners?). I think this look is great in a contemporary loft space but in a house with a young family of 4 - not so much.

    I'll start the ball rolling with suggested changes - get rid of the tall cabinets on the east wall and move the freezer/wine/fridge down towards the north and put the range on that wall.
    Add a prep sink to the island with a trash pullout. You have the space for a prep sink and will be thrilled if you open up counter space and add one.
    What is that 27" corner wall where the east and south walls
    meet?

  • kaysd
    Original Author
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Ok, I am going to try pictures again. I hope I am putting the forward-facing carat in the correct place.

    Inspiration kitchen:

    img src=

  • kaysd
    Original Author
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    A kitchen I love:

  • kaysd
    Original Author
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Marcolo and Blfenton, the box thing in the southeast corner is just that, a box constructed out of drywall to take up the corner. I hate blind corner cabinets, so I would rather "waste" the corner entirely rather than spending money on corner cabinetry I hate, especially since it lets me put more efficient drawer storage on each side of the corner. It also allows me to have tall cabinetry on the east wall and uppers and lowers on the south wall, without having an issue where they meet in the corner. I might put a door in the guest room wall to utilize the 27" x 27" space from the other side to store items we do not need to get to often, like luggage.

    I agree that having the wall ovens 4' away from the nearest landing spot on the island is not ideal, but it is a big improvement over the 7' walk between wall ovens and counters in our current kitchen. If we move the wall ovens to the east wall, there is still at least a 4' walk to the island.

    Amanda, the trash pullout and dishwasher are on opposite sides of the sink cabinet. I will also have storage for dishes, Rubbermaid containers, plastic wrap, etc. on the south wall. That way, after meals, the plates and pots all go to the counter next to the sink, leftovers can be packaged, dishes can be scraped into the trash and then go into the dishwasher. When I empty the dishwasher, the dish storage is on uppers on that wall.

    It sounds like cooktops on islands are not popular. I agree it is not ideal, but it was the only way to get the entire wall of tall cabinets on the east side. My DH loves the look of that wall, and that wall will be highly visible from our kitchen and dining room. I would prefer a real hood to a downdraft vent, but, then again, I have lived without a proper hood for 10 years.

    Mahlgold, I am having trouble balancing the look we want with function. We plan to do prep on the island and the counter to the left of the sink. Those 2 areas give us more counter space than we have had in any prior kitchen. We do not own a coffee maker or toaster oven. Our only countertop appliances are a KA mixer, small toaster and blender. The mixer and blender will go under the uppers to the left of the sink (mixer in far left corner on an angle). The toaster could also go on that counter, or maybe behind the lift door on the left side of the east wall along with bread storage. We only do breakfast and lunch at home 1 or 2 days per week. I am not sure how many or how deep of drawers to put in the tall cabinets. I drew each side with 5, but it could be 3 or 4. This kitchen has so many more lower cabinets than we have ever had before, that I am not sure what to put in all of them. On the right side tall cabinet, I thought I would want a couple of shallow drawers at the top to store extra trays for the Advantium, pot holders (those will be kept in 3 different locations near all the hot appliances) and wine tools like the opener, Vacu-vin, etc. Maybe a drawer for DH's vast tea bag and leaf collection and related tools. We could put all the empty baby bottles and plastic plates for the kids in a drawer in that tower or on the south wall. On the left side tall cabinet, I could use the drawers to store pyrex, roasting pans, pie tins and other baking dishes that might not fit in the drawers below the wall oven. My stove top pots and pans and utensils will go in drawers below or next to the cooktop on the island, as I have several feet of drawers on the south side of the island.

    The wall ovens were put on the north wall (where they are in the current kitchen) because they are less attractive to look at. Also, if we get the side opening Gagg ovens, they would be difficult to place in the east wall because they need at least 8" between the hinge side of the oven and an adjacent wall, so we could not put them at the very end of a cabinet run. It is also tricky because we are trying to find space for 3 wall ovens: standard 30" convection oven, speedoven/microwave, and steam oven. They are too tall to stack all together in one column and still have at useful heights. I will use the speedoven/microwave more than once a day, so I would be miserable having that oven below countertop height. I also hope to use the combi-steam oven regularly. I feel like we should have 1 full size oven, but that one will get the least use (I very rarely bake or cook large meals), so I could buy the Thermador wall oven with the standard door and put it under the counter somewhere and stack the other 2 together on a wall.

    The problem with swapping all the cooling appliances to the north wall and the pantry to the east wall as was suggested is that the pantry is only 16-18" deep and the appliances are 24" deep, which would prevent us from having a 24" deep coat closet on the hall side of that space. (We really need a coat closet because the house does not have one now.) I will think about whether we can steal coat space from another room, like the guest room.

    I am debating the idea of a prep sink on the island. DH looked at me like I was crazy when I suggested a second sink 5' away from the main sink. We do not use the sink a lot for prep. We rinse the veggies, but then put them on a cutting board and move it to where we want to work. We use a large bowl to collect veggie or meat waste when we peel, chop and trim.

    Sadly, we do not have any family in this state, so no one brings us food to prepare. It is just DH and I in the kitchen now, although we hope our two daughters will like to cook as they get older.

  • kaysd
    Original Author
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    An alternative plan I had considered for the east wall is to put the freezer column at the far left, the fridge column at the far right, and a 30" gas range with 36" chimney style wall hood in the center of that wall. I would have space for about 21" of lower drawers and counters on each side of the range. I could put 18" uppers on each side of the hood, or just leave the upper space open. The range oven would replace the large wall oven, so the microwave and steam oven could be stacked on the north wall. The wine column would move over next to the oven stack, which would reduce my pantry width to 4.5', but that should still be enough. I also could get rid of the tall wine column I have been drooling over and just put 2 undercounter units in the island and/or south wall.

    Alternatively, the range could be flanked by the 30" fridge column on one side and the 30" wall oven cabinet on the other side, although the visual symmetry will not be as nice as with the two 30" Thermador columns. This would allow the microwave and steam oven contents to land next to the range. Then I would pair a 24" freezer column and 24" wine column together on the north wall next to the pantry.

    It will take me a while to try to draw these alternative plans, as I am doing these all by hand. DH hates that I am rethinking the layout when he thought we were done with the design phase. I am 6 months pregnant, and we are 2-3 months behind our timetable to have plans done so we can start building. We had hoped to be done before the baby came, but I am going to end up spending my whole maternity leave in a construction zone. Wow, I wish I could drink - a lot.

  • kaysd
    Original Author
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I had planned on seating for 4 at the island since we are a family of four and I thought we might want to occasionally grab a quick bite together at the island. I also want seats for guests since everyone congregates in the kitchen at parties. I am starting to wonder if I really need seating for 4 at the island since the dining room table will be less than 5' away.

    What do you think - should I leave 4 seats at the island, or switch to 2 to gain more prep and storage space?

  • kaysd
    Original Author
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    These are the architect's drawings that show the floorplan of the house.

    Current kitchen:

    House:

    Architect's proposed kitchen:

    The rooms the kitchen will look into. The wall cutout will be to the left of where I was standing to take this picture.

    The style of our dining room furniture. (The lovely light fixture will be replaced.) This is the wall that will be opened.

    Inspiration for the row of Thermador columns with wood surround:
    {{gwi:1751918}}

  • lavender_lass
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Kaysd- Love your inspiration photo, for form over function. One reason it might work is that there seems to be plenty of landing space, behind the fridge/to the right of the cooktop. Will you have enough space in your design?

    When I say form over function, my concern is the little ones, who will want to help in the kitchen. Can you imagine a five year old, getting their own cereal in the morning? You have 30" opposite the oven, about 24" to the right of the cooktop...and the island is only 4' deep....so you have landing space for the oven, fridge, freezer, and work space to the right of the cooktop.

    I don't know if this is going to be enough space, for so many functions. If you could bring in a little counter space, maybe by the oven (?) with only one pantry...that might give you a little more functional space.

    Again, I like your sleek design style...just make sure it's going to function for you now...and when the kid(s) get old enough to want to cook with you :)

  • blfenton
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I like the sounds of your alternate plan for the east wall better. You could put a decorative backsplash behind the range for added interest as it is a view wall from the dining room. For the corner - instead of building a box and losing 4 sq. ft of counter - what about putting in 2 levels of open-shelving as deep as your upper cabinets, mitered into the corner. I think that would go with the clean style that you seem to be aiming for and gives you a place for accessories, or oils, vinegars, cookbooks etc. I'm looking at the corner bookcase in your inspiration photo and trying to, not copy, but draw inspiration from it.
    I have to tell, I spent 20 years cooking, prepping and cleaning on a counter that was 4' x 2' and covering up useful counter goes against everything I believe in for kitchens. (just kidding - sort of -LOL).
    Oh I hate to tell you how many times my DH thought we were finished the design phase - but I wasn't pregnant.
    It is, however, definitely worth the time to explore other plans and suggestions, even if you wind up exactly where you started. You will then know that for you and your family, it is the best floor plan.

  • marcolo
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hate to say this, but I vastly prefer your architect's version, with the addition of a prep sink on the island and moving the DW to the other side of the main sink.

    Boxing in a corner makes absolutely no sense. Not only are there multiple useful corner cabinet options like super susans and magic corner, but you're losing precious counterspace in a kitchen that already has too little.

    If you really despise corners, check out the alternative in johnliu's thread linked below. You don't have a window there to walk up to, but at least you get a full run of cabs and countertops on one of the walls.

    Here is a link that might be useful: Look at the corner in this thread

  • malhgold
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I understand you feel good about the fact that your plan has more counterspace then you've had in any other kitchen, but you also will have 2 more people in this kitchen than in your other kitchen. Kids grow up fast and take up the same amount of space as you and your DH. When we bought our house 17 years ago, we put in this kitchen, which was plenty of space for the 2 of us.

    We then had 2 children who decided to get bigger! They are now 14 and 12. Eventually, we were all constantly bumping into eachother in the same corner section of the kitchen. Sort of a similar set up as to your plan with the sink, range and frig very close to eachother(yours is obviously more spread out). I had very limited prep area and it was difficult for more than 1 person to be in there working together. We renovated and changed it to this:


    What I'm trying to say is you have to think way beyond how you did things before and that you are getting more space than before, so it must be ok. Your needs will change. You said above that you only make breakfast/lunch 1 or 2 times a week. That will change too. The kids will need breakfast, you will eventually have to make lunches for school, etc. When we first bought our house, we pretty much got our coffee on the way to work, went out for lunch, etc. Things change after kids....at least they did for us. We started drinking coffee and eating breakfast at home before work. We started bringing our lunch to work, which had to be prepared in the kitchen before work while getting breakfast ready, etc. I'm not trying to discourage you from your dream kitchen. Just want you to be aware of what you may wind up with functionally because of how you want it to look. Would hate for you to be frustrated after all the time, effort and money.

    Many people find it can be a fairly long design process once they post their initial layout here. Most are extremely happy with the outcome, even though it may have been difficult at times. It took me over a year to finalize my plans. I wanted to take the time to get it right. There was no way DH was going to put in a 3rd kitchen in the same house!! Good luck!!!

  • blfenton
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Kaysd: Look at the corner inset shelving that malhgold did in her above kitchen. Something like that might work in that corner instead of boxing it in.. Or corner shelving as mentioned before.
    Malhgold - beautiful kitchen.